If the same coin in a PCGS slab carries a premium, wouldn't the same coin in an NGC slab be a better value to the collector?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I have both types - mainly because a coin I wanted was only available in a slab. I am a collector... and I have never sold a coin. I would actually prefer to buy a raw coin. Of course, if this were my profession rather than a hobby, I would make different decisions. Too many 'collectors' delude themselves with visions of profit (and occasionally it pays off - i.e. AGE anniversary sets). Real collectors pursue a different venue. They desire the coin(s) for the pleasure of viewing, owning, completing a series. True collectors enjoy their acquisitions. Cheers, RickO
I see my happy kool aid guy in several poses throughout this thread. Doesn't the Kool Aid Man make you guys happy ? I think the one underlying factor here is that both companies grade inherently different across the entire spectrum. Now why is that ? That is what I'd like to know.
<< <i>I have an earth shattering suggestion for all those PCGS lovers.....
If you are looking for a MS 65 coin and you are sure that NGC overgrades these by a point or so.......follow me here PCGS guys....
Take a look at a few NGC MS66 slabs and ....viola..... maybe the coin sitting inside that NGC 66 slab will meet your MS 65 PCGS criteria ????
DING DING DING DING DING........
Now take a look at the pricing for those NGC 66 slabs------kinda close to the PCGS 65 slab price
Could the market ( The definition of the market is the rest of us NON PCGS LOVERS) be pricing the coin based on its condition after all ??? >>
Yes, precisely. Thank you for proving the point that PCGS graded coins can, should, and do command a premium ... AND that it is based on the coin, not the holder !!! There's no "Kool-Aid" in that at all ... just a fact that tighter and somewhat more consistent grading standards at PCGS have led to this.
So you're a "non-PCGS lover" but you will pay NGC MS66 money for a PCGS MS65 because you acknowledge that the condition of a PCGS MS65 may be comparable to an NGC MS66 ... therefore, given a choice between a PCGS MS65 and an NGC MS65, presumably you would pay a premium for the PCGS coin. Hmmmm ... let's call a spade a spade .... I think you are a PCGS lover after all. (Maybe you were just being sarcastic and I didn't get it LOL ...)
<< <i>Yes, precisely. Thank you for proving the point that PCGS graded coins can, should, and do command a premium ... AND that it is based on the coin, not the holder !!! There's no "Kool-Aid" in that at all ... just a fact that tighter and somewhat more consistent grading standards at PCGS have led to this. >>
I don't get this. If two essentially identical coins sell for different prices because of the plastic, how is it based on the coin and not the holder?
If I were a dealer and I knew I could sell the PCGS coin for more, sure -- I'd pay more for the PCGS coin. As a collector, the plastic carries no premium with me if the coins are essentially identical, and I would not pay more to "drink the Kool-Aid."
<< <i>I have an earth shattering suggestion for all those PCGS lovers.....
If you are looking for a MS 65 coin and you are sure that NGC overgrades these by a point or so.......follow me here PCGS guys....
Take a look at a few NGC MS66 slabs and ....viola..... maybe the coin sitting inside that NGC 66 slab will meet your MS 65 PCGS criteria ????
DING DING DING DING DING........
Now take a look at the pricing for those NGC 66 slabs------kinda close to the PCGS 65 slab price
Could the market ( The definition of the market is the rest of us NON PCGS LOVERS) be pricing the coin based on its condition after all ??? >>
Yes, precisely. Thank you for proving the point that PCGS graded coins can, should, and do command a premium ... AND that it is based on the coin, not the holder !!! There's no "Kool-Aid" in that at all ... just a fact that tighter and somewhat more consistent grading standards at PCGS have led to this.
So you're a "non-PCGS lover" but you will pay NGC MS66 money for a PCGS MS65 because you acknowledge that the condition of a PCGS MS65 may be comparable to an NGC MS66 ... therefore, given a choice between a PCGS MS65 and an NGC MS65, presumably you would pay a premium for the PCGS coin. Hmmmm ... let's call a spade a spade .... I think you are a PCGS lover after all. (Maybe you were just being sarcastic and I didn't get it LOL ...)
Best, Sunnywood >>
Yes 100% Sunnywood
Way back in the 80's I used to buy PCGS 66 Mercs and NGC 67 Mercs. I always looked at NGC as 1 point more liberal in this series at this grading level- AND STILL DO... I buy the coin NOT the holder. The look and condition I wanted in those Mercs was available in those grades by those 2 companies. And most times, a 67 NGC cost about what a 66 PCGS cost. So to say (not you Sunnywood) that you will not buy a NGC coin but only a PCGS coin is foolish. Or any company over another. BUY THE COIN. The pricing is - and should be - based on the coin NOT the holder it happens to be in.
edited to add---- I think that a PCGS 65 is often a similar coin to an NGC 66 not an NGC 65 and therefore the reason for the pricing difference.
<< <i>I have an earth shattering suggestion for all those PCGS lovers.....
If you are looking for a MS 65 coin and you are sure that NGC overgrades these by a point or so.......follow me here PCGS guys....
Take a look at a few NGC MS66 slabs and ....viola..... maybe the coin sitting inside that NGC 66 slab will meet your MS 65 PCGS criteria ????
DING DING DING DING DING........
Now take a look at the pricing for those NGC 66 slabs------kinda close to the PCGS 65 slab price
Could the market ( The definition of the market is the rest of us NON PCGS LOVERS) be pricing the coin based on its condition after all ??? >>
Yes, precisely. Thank you for proving the point that PCGS graded coins can, should, and do command a premium ... AND that it is based on the coin, not the holder !!! There's no "Kool-Aid" in that at all ... just a fact that tighter and somewhat more consistent grading standards at PCGS have led to this.
So you're a "non-PCGS lover" but you will pay NGC MS66 money for a PCGS MS65 because you acknowledge that the condition of a PCGS MS65 may be comparable to an NGC MS66 ... therefore, given a choice between a PCGS MS65 and an NGC MS65, presumably you would pay a premium for the PCGS coin. Hmmmm ... let's call a spade a spade .... I think you are a PCGS lover after all. (Maybe you were just being sarcastic and I didn't get it LOL ...)
Best, Sunnywood >>
Yes 100% Sunnywood
Way back in the 80's I used to buy PCGS 66 Mercs and NGC 67 Mercs. I always looked at NGC as 1 point more liberal in this series at this grading level- AND STILL DO... I buy the coin NOT the holder. The look and condition I wanted in those Mercs was available in those grades by those 2 companies. And most times, a 67 NGC cost about what a 66 PCGS cost. So to say (not you Sunnywood) that you will not buy a NGC coin but only a PCGS coin is foolish. Or any company over another. BUY THE COIN. The pricing is - and should be - based on the coin NOT the holder it happens to be in.
edited to add---- I think that a PCGS 65 is often a similar coin to an NGC 66 not an NGC 65 and therefore the reason for the pricing difference. >>
I agree with all of this and similarly often end up paying more for the PCGS coin because it is grader stricter (on average 0.5 points) than the coin in the NGC holder at the same grade. However, the hypo in the OP has the identical "twin" coin in PCGS and NGC holders and asks if I would pay more for the PCGS coin. As a collector, I say "No!"
More of my strange logic. If HRH says 66% cross at the same grade, then I give the price of the grade back plus 33% of the amount between the two grades. Does that make cents?
<< <i>Would you pay a Premium for PCGS coins over NGC?
Assume you were buying Seated coins. The coins looked to be exactly the same, say a 1853 arrows MS65. The coins were twins of each other.
Would you pay a premium for the PCGS holder?
If so how much? >>
I believe PCGS is normally more conservative in grading than NGC, and certainly more consistent. This thread question does not allow me to consider their grading differences.
I would pay a small premium for PCGS holders because they are easier to sell, and they bring more money than NGC. Generally, many of us look at the PCGS holdered coins as PQ NGC coins.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
I've bought some NGC coins that were nice for the grade, because they cost less than the same PCGS coins of the same grade and had more eye appeal. A few examples are an 1855 Half Cent in 5 RB, a 29 P SLQ in FH 6, and an 1837 Reeded Edge Half in 4.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
If the coin is great looking, and in an NGC holder, I'll definately buy..I don't think you should pay a premium for PCGS..buy the NGC and if you want, send in for crossover...I have a nice mix of NGC and PCGS coins and they are all great coins...buy the coin, not the holder,,,scr
I would more DISCOUNT for the NGC. Fact is that few IDENTICAL coins would get identical grades from the 2 services. It's not that NGC is "easier" but that PCGS is "tougher." PCGS grades match NO other services on a consistent basis.
I also know a coin doctor who plies his trade (?) and goes first for PCGS but if it BBs, he sends it elsewhere.
I stand by my opinion that PCGS grades DIFFERENTLY from any other service and sadly, assigns numbers that are lower....in general....in my OPINION.
This can be good or bad. Bad for the hobby as it generates the kind of thinking that prompted this thread. Good in the sense that the PCGS grade will probably hold for any service and maybe better. Also it is good insurance against having grade insurance claims.
There is NO substitution for doing your own grading but if one is not skilled then the slabs help.
I believe the coin ALWAYS speaks for itself, regardless of the slab, however, give me 2 coins equally graded by NGC and PCGS and fairly equal in appearance and I will alwys pick PCGS over NGC.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Here are four pages of discussion that justifies STANDARDS for the grading industry. So many other professions have documented and mutually agreed upon standards... why not TPG's? Let me take this one step further... it should be possible to write a software program and implement computerised grading.... eliminate the subjectivity completely. Remember, people are grading these coins, and the grade is subject to all the whims and perceptions of the human psyche..... It is NOT science... at this point it is art.. and not everyone sees art the same. As long as this situation exists - discussion, disagreement and mistakes will continue. Standards and computer scanning are the answer. Cheers, RickO
I bought one of the nicest PRF 67 Walkers I had ever seen back during the free cross over days. So, go figure when that was. It was in an NGC holder. Beautiful coin. I sent the coin to PCGS. and........................
It crossed. Instant profit!!! Yeah!! Therefore it is my express opinion with "humbility of the highest order". That I buy PCGS graded coins.
and copper coins graded by anac's and circ coins graded by anac's and exceptionally nice coins graded by NGC and stuff from the mint. There. That should clear up this matter.
As a direct answer, I am more likely to buy a PCGS coins than a coin in other holders. Especially toners in NGC holders, or coins over $100 in value in ANACS or other lesser holders. How this translates into a price, depends on the series, and the coin. In some series the difference might be non-measurable, in others it might be substantial--50% or more.
I agree that the majority of coins would get the same grades at NGC and PCGS, maybe as high as 80% to 90%. However, there are a good percentage of coins where that is not true. In some series, the differences are consistently about a full point for MS coins and the auction prices realized reflect that.
For the person saying computerized objectivity is the answer, that may be possible in the future, but it is not here today. It might actually be bad for business because it would cut down on resubmits. Over ten years ago, there were a couple of projects on computerized grading, including one by PCGS. The programs had problems with toned coins, and probably would continue to do so today. The brute force method of building a database of known coins and known grades might work, but would take a huge investment of time and money--probably more than the grading business could support. Submissions are down, and grading has never been that big a business (in dollar terms compared to other businesses). I believe that it will most likely be a small start garage shop up that brings us computerized grading on a shoestring budget. The costs for professional development would likely be too large considering the value of the coin grading businesses.
<< <i>Our last two coin submissions with PCGS have been a joke. I think they had Fred Flinstone grade them. >>
Why do you think Fred Flintstone graded your coins? Not sure I get it. Care to elaborate?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It's not so much I would pay a premium for a PCGS slab as I would discount an NGC slab. No that isn't right, strike that, I would think it to be a cold day before I even considered buying a coin in an NGC slab.
<< <i>It's not so much I would pay a premium for a PCGS slab as I would discount an NGC slab. No that isn't right, strike that, I would think it to be a cold day before I even considered buying a coin in an NGC slab. >>
Comments
https://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/collectors-showcase/world-coins/one-coin-per-year-1600-2017/2422
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If you are looking for a MS 65 coin and you are sure that NGC overgrades these by a point or so.......follow me here PCGS guys....
Take a look at a few NGC MS66 slabs and ....viola..... maybe the coin sitting inside that NGC 66 slab will meet your MS 65 PCGS criteria ????
DING DING DING DING DING........
Now take a look at the pricing for those NGC 66 slabs------kinda close to the PCGS 65 slab price
Could the market ( The definition of the market is the rest of us NON PCGS LOVERS) be pricing the coin based on its condition after all ???
Class Over-------------------------------KOOL AID TIME.....................
I see my happy kool aid guy in several poses throughout this thread. Doesn't the Kool Aid Man make you guys happy ?
I think the one underlying factor here is that both companies grade inherently different across the entire spectrum. Now why is that ? That is what I'd like to know.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I have an earth shattering suggestion for all those PCGS lovers.....
If you are looking for a MS 65 coin and you are sure that NGC overgrades these by a point or so.......follow me here PCGS guys....
Take a look at a few NGC MS66 slabs and ....viola..... maybe the coin sitting inside that NGC 66 slab will meet your MS 65 PCGS criteria ????
DING DING DING DING DING........
Now take a look at the pricing for those NGC 66 slabs------kinda close to the PCGS 65 slab price
Could the market ( The definition of the market is the rest of us NON PCGS LOVERS) be pricing the coin based on its condition after all ??? >>
Yes, precisely. Thank you for proving the point that PCGS graded coins can, should, and do command a premium ... AND that it is based on the coin, not the holder !!! There's no "Kool-Aid" in that at all ... just a fact that tighter and somewhat more consistent grading standards at PCGS have led to this.
So you're a "non-PCGS lover" but you will pay NGC MS66 money for a PCGS MS65 because you acknowledge that the condition of a PCGS MS65 may be comparable to an NGC MS66 ... therefore, given a choice between a PCGS MS65 and an NGC MS65, presumably you would pay a premium for the PCGS coin. Hmmmm ... let's call a spade a spade .... I think you are a PCGS lover after all. (Maybe you were just being sarcastic and I didn't get it LOL ...)
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>Yes, precisely. Thank you for proving the point that PCGS graded coins can, should, and do command a premium ... AND that it is based on the coin, not the holder !!! There's no "Kool-Aid" in that at all ... just a fact that tighter and somewhat more consistent grading standards at PCGS have led to this. >>
I don't get this. If two essentially identical coins sell for different prices because of the plastic, how is it based on the coin and not the holder?
If I were a dealer and I knew I could sell the PCGS coin for more, sure -- I'd pay more for the PCGS coin. As a collector, the plastic carries no premium with me if the coins are essentially identical, and I would not pay more to "drink the Kool-Aid."
<< <i>
<< <i>I have an earth shattering suggestion for all those PCGS lovers.....
If you are looking for a MS 65 coin and you are sure that NGC overgrades these by a point or so.......follow me here PCGS guys....
Take a look at a few NGC MS66 slabs and ....viola..... maybe the coin sitting inside that NGC 66 slab will meet your MS 65 PCGS criteria ????
DING DING DING DING DING........
Now take a look at the pricing for those NGC 66 slabs------kinda close to the PCGS 65 slab price
Could the market ( The definition of the market is the rest of us NON PCGS LOVERS) be pricing the coin based on its condition after all ??? >>
Yes, precisely. Thank you for proving the point that PCGS graded coins can, should, and do command a premium ... AND that it is based on the coin, not the holder !!! There's no "Kool-Aid" in that at all ... just a fact that tighter and somewhat more consistent grading standards at PCGS have led to this.
So you're a "non-PCGS lover" but you will pay NGC MS66 money for a PCGS MS65 because you acknowledge that the condition of a PCGS MS65 may be comparable to an NGC MS66 ... therefore, given a choice between a PCGS MS65 and an NGC MS65, presumably you would pay a premium for the PCGS coin. Hmmmm ... let's call a spade a spade .... I think you are a PCGS lover after all. (Maybe you were just being sarcastic and I didn't get it LOL ...)
Best,
Sunnywood >>
Yes 100% Sunnywood
Way back in the 80's I used to buy PCGS 66 Mercs and NGC 67 Mercs. I always looked at NGC as 1 point more liberal in this series at this grading level- AND STILL DO... I buy the coin NOT the holder. The look and condition I wanted in those Mercs was available in those grades by those 2 companies. And most times, a 67 NGC cost about what a 66 PCGS cost.
So to say (not you Sunnywood) that you will not buy a NGC coin but only a PCGS coin is foolish. Or any company over another. BUY THE COIN.
The pricing is - and should be - based on the coin NOT the holder it happens to be in.
edited to add---- I think that a PCGS 65 is often a similar coin to an NGC 66 not an NGC 65 and therefore the reason for the pricing difference.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I have an earth shattering suggestion for all those PCGS lovers.....
If you are looking for a MS 65 coin and you are sure that NGC overgrades these by a point or so.......follow me here PCGS guys....
Take a look at a few NGC MS66 slabs and ....viola..... maybe the coin sitting inside that NGC 66 slab will meet your MS 65 PCGS criteria ????
DING DING DING DING DING........
Now take a look at the pricing for those NGC 66 slabs------kinda close to the PCGS 65 slab price
Could the market ( The definition of the market is the rest of us NON PCGS LOVERS) be pricing the coin based on its condition after all ??? >>
Yes, precisely. Thank you for proving the point that PCGS graded coins can, should, and do command a premium ... AND that it is based on the coin, not the holder !!! There's no "Kool-Aid" in that at all ... just a fact that tighter and somewhat more consistent grading standards at PCGS have led to this.
So you're a "non-PCGS lover" but you will pay NGC MS66 money for a PCGS MS65 because you acknowledge that the condition of a PCGS MS65 may be comparable to an NGC MS66 ... therefore, given a choice between a PCGS MS65 and an NGC MS65, presumably you would pay a premium for the PCGS coin. Hmmmm ... let's call a spade a spade .... I think you are a PCGS lover after all. (Maybe you were just being sarcastic and I didn't get it LOL ...)
Best,
Sunnywood >>
Yes 100% Sunnywood
Way back in the 80's I used to buy PCGS 66 Mercs and NGC 67 Mercs. I always looked at NGC as 1 point more liberal in this series at this grading level- AND STILL DO... I buy the coin NOT the holder. The look and condition I wanted in those Mercs was available in those grades by those 2 companies. And most times, a 67 NGC cost about what a 66 PCGS cost.
So to say (not you Sunnywood) that you will not buy a NGC coin but only a PCGS coin is foolish. Or any company over another. BUY THE COIN.
The pricing is - and should be - based on the coin NOT the holder it happens to be in.
edited to add---- I think that a PCGS 65 is often a similar coin to an NGC 66 not an NGC 65 and therefore the reason for the pricing difference. >>
I agree with all of this and similarly often end up paying more for the PCGS coin because it is grader stricter (on average 0.5 points) than the coin in the NGC holder at the same grade. However, the hypo in the OP has the identical "twin" coin in PCGS and NGC holders and asks if I would pay more for the PCGS coin. As a collector, I say "No!"
Looking for alot of crap.
<< <i>Would you pay a Premium for PCGS coins over NGC?
Assume you were buying Seated coins. The coins looked to be exactly the same, say a 1853 arrows MS65.
The coins were twins of each other.
Would you pay a premium for the PCGS holder?
If so how much? >>
I believe PCGS is normally more conservative in grading than NGC, and certainly more consistent. This thread question does not allow me to consider their grading differences.
I would pay a small premium for PCGS holders because they are easier to sell, and they bring more money than NGC. Generally, many of us look at the PCGS holdered coins as PQ NGC coins.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I also know a coin doctor who plies his trade (?) and goes first for PCGS but if it BBs, he sends it elsewhere.
I stand by my opinion that PCGS grades DIFFERENTLY from any other service and sadly, assigns numbers that are lower....in general....in my OPINION.
This can be good or bad. Bad for the hobby as it generates the kind of thinking that prompted this thread. Good in the sense that the PCGS grade will probably hold for any service and maybe better. Also it is good insurance against having grade insurance claims.
I continue to disagree with this assertion and believe that in fact the majority of coins would get identical grades from the two services.
<< <i>I continue to disagree with this assertion and believe that in fact the majority of coins would get identical grades from the two services. >>
Easy to find out.
I believe the coin ALWAYS speaks for itself, regardless of the slab, however, give me 2 coins equally graded by NGC and PCGS and fairly equal in appearance and I will alwys pick PCGS over NGC.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
during the free cross over days. So, go figure when that was.
It was in an NGC holder. Beautiful coin. I sent the coin to PCGS.
and........................
It crossed. Instant profit!!! Yeah!!
Therefore it is my express opinion with "humbility of the highest
order". That I buy PCGS graded coins.
and copper coins graded by anac's and circ coins graded by anac's
and exceptionally nice coins graded by NGC and stuff from the
mint. There. That should clear up this matter.
No. I'm not concerned about the higher price that PCGS slabs bring when I go to sell it.
I'd pay what I felt the market would pay for the coin in it's holder.... That usually means that I'd pay a little more for PCGS than NGC.
David
I agree that the majority of coins would get the same grades at NGC and PCGS, maybe as high as 80% to 90%. However, there are a good percentage of coins where that is not true. In some series, the differences are consistently about a full point for MS coins and the auction prices realized reflect that.
For the person saying computerized objectivity is the answer, that may be possible in the future, but it is not here today. It might actually be bad for business because it would cut down on resubmits. Over ten years ago, there were a couple of projects on computerized grading, including one by PCGS. The programs had problems with toned coins, and probably would continue to do so today. The brute force method of building a database of known coins and known grades might work, but would take a huge investment of time and money--probably more than the grading business could support. Submissions are down, and grading has never been that big a business (in dollar terms compared to other businesses). I believe that it will most likely be a small start garage shop up that brings us computerized grading on a shoestring budget. The costs for professional development would likely be too large considering the value of the coin grading businesses.
I think they had Fred Flinstone grade them.
Nothing against NGC but my OCD problem makes it so everything has to be in the same type of slab.
<< <i>Our last two coin submissions with PCGS have been a joke.
I think they had Fred Flinstone grade them. >>
Why do you think Fred Flintstone graded your coins? Not sure I get it. Care to elaborate?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Would you pay a Premium for PCGS coins over NGC? >>
no.
but between 2 m/l equal coins, i do pay a premium for the nicer
the $lab has nothing to do w/ it, since i throw away the pla$tic anyhow
(well technically i toss it into a 55 gallon drum, but you get the point)
K S
For modern, on ebay, yes.
At a show, I'll look at the coin and decide.
<< <i>It's not so much I would pay a premium for a PCGS slab as I would discount an NGC slab. No that isn't right, strike that, I would think it to be a cold day before I even considered buying a coin in an NGC slab. >>