Coin doctor's should be swinging from trees. I laugh to myself every time I see Manofcoins periodically posting on the forum still. It's like he tests the waters here every now and then to see if we've forgotten yet.
<< <i>I repeat - "if you know any coin doctors and don't think what they're doing is OK, at the very least, don't make it easy for them to continue to deceive themselves" and others. Please let them know how you feel about it. Thank you. >>
I just did. It might not make a difference in the long run, but at least I got it off my chest.
<< <i>Coin doctors have convinced themselves that what they're doing is OK, since, after all, others do it too.
just as likely, the collector/dealer community's position of not taking a more hard-line stance on things has been a signal to them that we all don't care.i have run down the full disclosure trail and been scorned for it, but it remains the only viable long term solution if you really want results. otherwise, threads like this will continue and the results which prompted it will also continue.
in a word, apathy. >>
In a word, accountability.
People on eBay and other venues routinely get crucified for misrepresentation. Fine. Then it comes to light that it involves forum members and somtimes even respected forum members. Goodness let's argue about it a while and then forget about it. It starts at home folks. You don't discipline your own kids don't expect everyone else to reprimand theirs.
"to you, a hero is some kind of weird sandwich..."
Mark - Seriously, if the TPGs are going to continue to grade doctored coins - for whatever reasons, to whatever extent - it's our support of the TPGs and their products that keeps the doctors in business. This leaves us with difficult choices, no doubt.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Then it comes to light that it involves forum members and somtimes even respected forum members. Goodness let's argue about it a while and then forget about it. It starts at home folks. You don't discipline your own kids don't expect everyone else to reprimand theirs. >>
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
<< <i>Mark - Seriously, if the TPGs are going to continue to grade doctored coins - for whatever reasons, to whatever extent - it's our support of the TPGs and their products that keeps the doctors in business. This leaves us with difficult choices, no doubt. >>
A great point, Andy.... What can we do about it, and where do we go from here? I'm not sure, but I'd appreciate the perspectives of other collectors on this point...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
Thats it!! I can't stand it anymore. I will pay alot more for original coins I want. Nice original coins only. And the coins I have that are original, the price is going up significantly. Dealers don't have to buy them, but the price is going up!
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< Mark - Seriously, if the TPGs are going to continue to grade doctored coins - for whatever reasons, to whatever extent - it's our support of the TPGs and their products that keeps the doctors in business. This leaves us with difficult choices, no doubt. >>
If the TPG's know they mite be doctored or think they mite be doctored cahn't they simply BB them for "altered surfaces" or are the submitters that significant to the bottom line.
How about sellers that know what they're doing that take consignments? How about when people send their AT junk to them so they don't have to get their own hands dirty? Is this OK, because it might or might not be be someone you know and like? Is this OK, because they are slabbed and it's not their responsibility? Is this good for the "hobby'? Does it have to be big bucks for it to not be OK?
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
<< <i>The antique car hobby has nothing over coins. I played with Mopar Muscle cars from 1992 to 2003 and saw plenty of deception, esp with so-called "matching number" original engines, so called "original paint," so called "no filler" or "bondo" and altered odometers. One of my cars, a so-called low miles 22,000 GTX, turned out to have about 50,000 more miles on it after I did a titel search and sifted through all the original documents available through the state DMV's. 6 previous owners had never bothered to do this. I found a clear case where a dealer took a signed title (but w/o the mileage entered) and magically got a new title with 15,000 miles (this was 1983 or so).
I once went to Rik Smits house in NY state (former NBA center)to look at a matching number car. Imagine my grief when after a 4 hour drive that in fact he had the original documents all right, but to another car built within the same few days as his. Rik had never noticed the difference in the numbers or never checked. Same thing happened on another car being offered by a national dealer. He thought he had the orig build sheet to his '69 Roadrunner convertible but in fact had one for a different car built at the same time.
I also wish I could have $100 for every time a seller told me his car had no bondo in it. Frankly, I looked at hundreds of cars for sale over 10 years and NEVER found one without some bondo added along the way. Very similar to those who say this coin has never been messed with, etc. The number of times a seller has told me his car was all original and not messed with...only to find the paint was the wrong color, a few body panels had been replaced along with the wrong motor (usually a 318 car upgraded to a 440) and trans, and after market parts littered the car. Sure, other than those minor details those cars "WERE" not messed with (lol).
The car hobby is no cleaner than anything else where condition, originality and rarity rule. I'll stay in coins a while longer before reverting back to collector cars. At least with coins in slabs you have a decent chance of getting what you expect. In cars I became very tired of showing up at some old farmer's house to inspect his 10,000 mile mint 1960's collector car with perfect paint only to find a rusted hulk with 110,000 miles at 3X it's true value. The stories I could tell would fill a book. Or the time I drove 200 miles to Oswego, NY to see a rust free "restored" GTX convertible. Yeah, but when I got there the car was stored outside under half a tarp, was rusty with holes so big in the wheel wells and trunk you could fit a football through them! A number of my compadres told me to write a car book to tell the stories, but I figured no one would believe them. I mean, how could people be so blind and/or dishonest to what was right in front of them?
Coins....you got it good.
roadrunner >>
roadrunner I know exactly what you mean, I own a 1969 1/2 Dodge Super bee with the 440+6 engine. I bought the car when i was 18 and started restoring it when I was 20. I at the time thought it was a hastle because there were no parts for Mopars at AutoShack (now Auto Zone) so I had to drive hundreds of miles to find an original NOS starter or had to go to specialty speed shops that were in rinky dink building that had stock from 20 and 30 years back still on their shelf to get linkage for the three 2 barrels, but now that it is all and done I am histatic that i went through the time to do so and that there wasn't some kind of parts supply stores that carried these aftermarket parts and now every part is either original to my car or atleast NOS parts. We even bought out an old Dodge dealership of all of their parts just to get a set of NOS emblems and sticker package for the Super Bee because at the time eBay was a long time away and I had never thought of a computer in a persons home, I thought that was something big companies used and now I sit back and think about how the times have changed and how easy it would be to find NOS parts with a little patience since the internet has grown so much since then
Mark - Seriously, if the TPGs are going to continue to grade doctored coins - for whatever reasons, to whatever extent - it's our support of the TPGs and their products that keeps the doctors in business. This leaves us with difficult choices, no doubt.
Which goes back to my question...... .......I wonder how many of you have honestly stopped dealing with those auction houses & those grading companies (That sell & grade known cleaned/conserved coins)?
Anybody want to stand up and say they do not buy coins from auctions houses that have been known to sell these clean/conserved types of coins? Or buys only PCGS graded coins (unless they too have graded known altered coins) because NGC (via NCS) certainly grades these type of coins....they even do it themselves, ANACS will grade altered coins, not sure about the others (PCI, etc.).
Although I wouldn't go so far as to say THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN. people WANT doctored coins., I would say the majority of the market has accepted 'altered' coins exists & deals with it. Do we like it? The majority of the time I would say no, but as long as there is money to be made and the big money comes from having a TPG slab the coin without mentioning the coin was cleaned or AT. Only the desperate & uninformed, in today's market, buy a raw coins worth a few hundred dollars or more.
I recently bought a large cent that had a listed grade of AU58+. When I got the coin I could not see any wear on it. I did see the beginning of some very light verdigris on it under magnification. I had more money in this coin than I wanted, but at the same time I felt an obligation to future collectors to not let it get any worse. I sent it to NCS then on the NGC for cleaning/preservation and grading. It came back as an MS64. The dusting of corrosion was gone, the coin was still brown and looked better than when it went in.
My question is, did I do anything wrong? In my mind, I was merely preserving a coin from future damage not trying to decieve anyone..
<< <i>My question is, did I do anything wrong? In my mind, I was merely preserving a coin from future damage not trying to decieve anyone.. >>
Welcome SoHumble. There is noting wrong with using a conservation service to preserve a coin by removing contaminants that if left alone will corrode the coin. As anti NCS as I am, I do recognize in some cases they provide a needed service. Unfortunately, NCS often does more damage than conservation in my opinion. If the coin is now properly graded (you said you could not see any wear) I am pleased for you. If the coin is overgraded, it may be what I see as the NCS bump.
<< <i>Anybody want to stand up and say they do not buy coins from auctions houses that have been known to sell these clean/conserved types of coins? >>
Perhaps they justify their actions by saying that they will only buy the "undoctored" coins from ACME Coin Auctions and not the "doctored" ones, thereby leaving that honor to someone else.
Same type of deception occurs in the Antique Furniture world---the Buyer must educate him/her self as most Dealers take a lazare fare attitude toward the situation especially since no oversight protection or sanctions exist in either arena.
This is just what happens when the words "unregulated" and "money" come together.
Michael, I'll disagree with you on that point. There's infinitely more scams and rip off scumbags in the "regulated" stock markets, commodity markets, real estate markets, ( name smoe please? ) than the coin business .
If we were comparing the coin business to the scams that go on and on and on in the "regulated" businesses, the coin business doesn't even appear in the top 10.
<< <i>My question is, did I do anything wrong? In my mind, I was merely preserving a coin from future damage not trying to decieve anyone.. >>
Welcome SoHumble. There is noting wrong with using a conservation service to preserve a coin by removing contaminants that if left alone will corrode the coin. As anti NCS as I am, I do recognize in some cases they provide a needed service. Unfortunately, NCS often does more damage than conservation in my opinion. If the coin is now properly graded (you said you could not see any wear) I am pleased for you. If the coin is overgraded, it may be what I see as the NCS bump. >>
and to the Forums, SoHumble!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I am not a expert by any stretch, but in regards to morgans and toning I always look to the GSA's . There are nice toners among them , but they are few and far between. It seems that every other morgan for sale now is toned . Pretty -yes real-no is what a whole lot of morgans are now. The toned people call any white morgan "dipped" Almost all the GSA'S I have are bright white. I feel confident the mint did not dip them. Coins do not tone by themselves. Some other property must be introduced to silver to achive color. I agree with everyone who has stated that the collectors created the doctors. When collectors quit looking at the coin for what it was and started viewing it as a work of art. That is when the "artists" flourished.
<< <i><<<THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN. people WANT doctored coins.>>>
Except for several loudmouths on several on-line message boards I don't hear the market saying anything about people wanting doctored coins. >>
if doctored coins sell on the open market, you don't think its because someone wants 'em? what's YOUR brilliant explanation then? conspiracy? communism? george bush???
there's no question that doctored coins are highly desirable, & there are literally thousands upon thousands of buyers for 'em. personally, i hate doctored coins, but the reality is, MANY people want 'em. in some cases, doctored coins are all you can afford.
bottom line is, the market has spoken, & there's not a danged thing you can do about it.
<<<<< <<<THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN. people WANT doctored coins.>>>
Except for several loudmouths on several on-line message boards I don't hear the market saying anything about people wanting doctored coins. >>
if doctored coins sell on the open market, you don't think its because someone wants 'em? what's YOUR brilliant explanation then? conspiracy? communism? george bush???>>>
Hey I might have posted on the Open Forum a time or 2 but that doesn't mean I blame everything on Bush. My brilliant explanation is because most buyers aren't aware that they are buying doctored coins.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
<<if doctored coins sell on the open market, you don't think its because someone wants 'em? what's YOUR brilliant explanation then? conspiracy? communism? George bush???>>
It's simple Karl and you must know it - in many cases the buyers are unknowledgable/unaware.
Some cases no one is aware. However the real problem is discovering whether the person who brings a doctored coin to the has a pattern of doing this. Coin doctors aren't going away and I don't see how they can be discouraged other than making it public and making it public who is retailing these coins.
Tell me who is guilty in this scenario and who should be prosecuted?
A gold coin, very valuable one in a TPG holder (highly respected one) sells in a major auction by a highly respected auction company to a highly respected dealer after many highly respected bidders fight over it. Oops a little while later the coin changes colors and putty is discovered. Ok who gets subpoened and arrested? How do you prove who did what to the coin and when?
<<<A gold coin, very valuable one in a TPG holder (highly respected one) sells in a major auction by a highly respected auction company to a highly respected dealer after many highly respected bidders fight over it. Oops a little while later the coin changes colors and putty is discovered. Ok who gets subpoened and arrested? How do you prove who did what to the coin and when? >>>
As long as the grading companies stand behind the coins they grade with their buyback guarantee everybody lives happily ever afterward. If the dealers that sold the doctored coins had to absorb the cost themselves the courts would be clogged with civil suits against the doctors.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
<< <i><<<<< <<<THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN. people WANT doctored coins.>>>
Except for several loudmouths on several on-line message boards I don't hear the market saying anything about people wanting doctored coins. >>
if doctored coins sell on the open market, you don't think its because someone wants 'em? what's YOUR brilliant explanation then? conspiracy? communism? george bush???>>>
Hey I might have posted on the Open Forum a time or 2 but that doesn't mean I blame everything on Bush. My brilliant explanation is because most buyers aren't aware that they are buying doctored coins.
<<if doctored coins sell on the open market, you don't think its because someone wants 'em? what's YOUR brilliant explanation then? conspiracy? communism? George bush???>>
It's simple Karl and you must know it - in many cases the buyers are unknowledgable/unaware. >>
ok, sure, i can accept that. so let's just say half the doctored coins are bought by the ignorant. what about the other half? you'll never convince me that all doctored coins, or even the biggest majority, are sold to the ignorant, especially considering the absurd number of dip-doctored coins that are actively pursued by those who KNOW they are dip-doctored, & want 'em anyway.
Only the desperate & uninformed, in today's market, buy a raw coins worth a few hundred dollars or more
This is a pretty bold statement. Of course, I do not agree at all.
I buy and sell coins of all values. I also stand behind all of the coins that I sell. I cannot imagine the necessity of encapsulating all coins worth more than a few hundred dollars.
The new/uninformed collector may be best served by only purchasing encapsulated coins, but he should only purchase them from knowledgable sellers and ones that will stand behind their product.
The more sophisticated buyers have the ability to purchase coins any way they can. Even they should purchase coins from buyers that will stand behind them.
As for doctored coins: Do doctored coins have any value?
My answer is that all coins have value.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Comments
<< <i>I repeat - "if you know any coin doctors and don't think what they're doing is OK, at the very least, don't make it easy for them to continue to deceive themselves" and others. Please let them know how you feel about it. Thank you. >>
I just did. It might not make a difference in the long run, but at least I got it off my chest.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
<< <i>Coin doctors have convinced themselves that what they're doing is OK, since, after all, others do it too.
just as likely, the collector/dealer community's position of not taking a more hard-line stance on things has been a signal to them that we all don't care.i have run down the full disclosure trail and been scorned for it, but it remains the only viable long term solution if you really want results. otherwise, threads like this will continue and the results which prompted it will also continue.
in a word, apathy. >>
In a word, accountability.
People on eBay and other venues routinely get crucified for misrepresentation. Fine. Then it comes to light that it involves forum members and somtimes even respected forum members. Goodness let's argue about it a while and then forget about it. It starts at home folks. You don't discipline your own kids don't expect everyone else to reprimand theirs.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Then it comes to light that it involves forum members and somtimes even respected forum members. Goodness let's argue about it a while and then forget about it. It starts at home folks. You don't discipline your own kids don't expect everyone else to reprimand theirs. >>
<< <i>Mark - Seriously, if the TPGs are going to continue to grade doctored coins - for whatever reasons, to whatever extent - it's our support of the TPGs and their products that keeps the doctors in business. This leaves us with difficult choices, no doubt. >>
A great point, Andy.... What can we do about it, and where do we go from here? I'm not sure, but I'd appreciate the perspectives of other collectors on this point...Mike
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
If the TPG's know they mite be doctored or think they mite be doctored cahn't they simply BB them for "altered surfaces" or are the submitters that significant to the bottom line.
Everyone talks a good game regarding ethical behavior, but in the end most follow the easy money. Including many on this forum.
<< <i>The antique car hobby has nothing over coins. I played with Mopar Muscle cars from 1992 to 2003 and saw plenty of deception, esp with so-called "matching number" original engines, so called "original paint," so called "no filler" or "bondo" and altered odometers. One of my cars, a so-called low miles 22,000 GTX, turned out to have about 50,000 more miles on it after I did a titel search and sifted through all the original documents available through the state DMV's. 6 previous owners had never bothered to do this. I found a clear case where a dealer took a signed title (but w/o the mileage entered) and magically got a new title with 15,000 miles (this was 1983 or so).
I once went to Rik Smits house in NY state (former NBA center)to look at a matching number car. Imagine my grief when after a 4 hour drive that in fact he had the original documents all right, but to another car built within the same few days as his. Rik had never noticed the difference in the numbers or never checked. Same thing happened on another car being offered by a national dealer. He thought he had the orig build sheet to his '69 Roadrunner convertible but in fact had one for a different car built at the same time.
I also wish I could have $100 for every time a seller told me his car had no bondo in it. Frankly, I looked at hundreds of cars for sale over 10 years and NEVER found one without some bondo added
along the way. Very similar to those who say this coin has never been messed with, etc. The number of times a seller has told me his car was all original and not messed with...only to find the paint was the wrong color, a few body panels had been replaced along with the wrong motor (usually a 318 car upgraded to a 440) and trans, and after market parts littered the car. Sure, other than those minor details those cars "WERE" not messed with (lol).
The car hobby is no cleaner than anything else where condition, originality and rarity rule. I'll stay in coins a while longer before reverting back to collector cars. At least with coins in slabs you have a decent chance of getting what you expect. In cars I became very tired of showing up at some old farmer's house to inspect his 10,000 mile mint 1960's collector car with perfect paint only to find a rusted hulk with 110,000 miles at 3X it's true value. The stories I could tell would fill a book. Or the time I drove 200 miles to Oswego, NY to see a rust free "restored" GTX convertible. Yeah, but when I got there the car was stored outside under half a tarp, was rusty with holes so big in the wheel wells and trunk you could fit a football through them! A number of my compadres told me to write a car book to tell the stories, but I figured no one would believe them. I mean, how could people be so blind and/or dishonest to what was right in front of them?
Coins....you got it good.
roadrunner >>
roadrunner I know exactly what you mean, I own a 1969 1/2 Dodge Super bee with the 440+6 engine. I bought the car when i was 18 and started restoring it when I was 20. I at the time thought it was a hastle because there were no parts for Mopars at AutoShack (now Auto Zone) so I had to drive hundreds of miles to find an original NOS starter or had to go to specialty speed shops that were in rinky dink building that had stock from 20 and 30 years back still on their shelf to get linkage for the three 2 barrels, but now that it is all and done I am histatic that i went through the time to do so and that there wasn't some kind of parts supply stores that carried these aftermarket parts and now every part is either original to my car or atleast NOS parts. We even bought out an old Dodge dealership of all of their parts just to get a set of NOS emblems and sticker package for the Super Bee because at the time eBay was a long time away and I had never thought of a computer in a persons home, I thought that was something big companies used and now I sit back and think about how the times have changed and how easy it would be to find NOS parts with a little patience since the internet has grown so much since then
Which goes back to my question......
.......I wonder how many of you have honestly stopped dealing with those auction houses & those grading companies (That sell & grade known cleaned/conserved coins)?
Anybody want to stand up and say they do not buy coins from auctions houses that have been known to sell these clean/conserved types of coins? Or buys only PCGS graded coins (unless they too have graded known altered coins) because NGC (via NCS) certainly grades these type of coins....they even do it themselves, ANACS will grade altered coins, not sure about the others (PCI, etc.).
Although I wouldn't go so far as to say THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN. people WANT doctored coins., I would say the majority of the market has accepted 'altered' coins exists & deals with it.
Do we like it? The majority of the time I would say no, but as long as there is money to be made and the big money comes from having a TPG slab the coin without mentioning the coin was cleaned or AT. Only the desperate & uninformed, in today's market, buy a raw coins worth a few hundred dollars or more.
<< <i>
We are custodians. jws >>
Well said Julio!
I can quit collecting anytime I want to.....I just don't want to!
My question is, did I do anything wrong? In my mind, I was merely preserving a coin from future damage not trying to decieve anyone..
<< <i>My question is, did I do anything wrong? In my mind, I was merely preserving a coin from future damage not trying to decieve anyone.. >>
Welcome SoHumble. There is noting wrong with using a conservation service to preserve a coin by removing contaminants that if left alone will corrode the coin. As anti NCS as I am, I do recognize in some cases they provide a needed service. Unfortunately, NCS often does more damage than conservation in my opinion. If the coin is now properly graded (you said you could not see any wear) I am pleased for you. If the coin is overgraded, it may be what I see as the NCS bump.
<< <i>Anybody want to stand up and say they do not buy coins from auctions houses that have been known to sell these clean/conserved types of coins? >>
Perhaps they justify their actions by saying that they will only buy the "undoctored" coins from ACME Coin Auctions and not the "doctored" ones, thereby leaving that honor to someone else.
<< <i>Mark,
This is just what happens when the words "unregulated" and "money" come together.
Michael, I'll disagree with you on that point. There's infinitely more scams and rip off scumbags in the "regulated" stock markets, commodity markets, real estate markets, ( name smoe please? ) than the coin business .
If we were comparing the coin business to the scams that go on and on and on in the "regulated" businesses, the coin business doesn't even appear in the top 10.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>
<< <i>My question is, did I do anything wrong? In my mind, I was merely preserving a coin from future damage not trying to decieve anyone.. >>
Welcome SoHumble. There is noting wrong with using a conservation service to preserve a coin by removing contaminants that if left alone will corrode the coin. As anti NCS as I am, I do recognize in some cases they provide a needed service. Unfortunately, NCS often does more damage than conservation in my opinion. If the coin is now properly graded (you said you could not see any wear) I am pleased for you. If the coin is overgraded, it may be what I see as the NCS bump. >>
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I do it all the time. Not because I'm desperate or uninformed, but because I want the coin more than I want the money.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Only the desperate & uninformed, in today's market, buy a raw coins worth a few hundred dollars or more.
I do it all the time. Not because I'm desperate or uninformed, but because I want the coin more than I want the money. >>
Me too, if I'm sure the coin is genuine and I'm sure of the attribution.
Edited for typo.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>Only the desperate & uninformed, in today's market, buy a raw coins worth a few hundred dollars or more.
I do it all the time. Not because I'm desperate or uninformed, but because I want the coin more than I want the money. >>
Someone actually said that Andy ... !!!!
This raw one just cost me more than a few hundred...maybe I should return it ???? Who wants a tough variety anyway......
That is when the "artists" flourished.
Sorry, totally misspoke.....in my mind I was think those of us that do not have the opportunity to buy rare coins sight seen.
Andy & John, were those eBay buys?
<< <i><<<THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN. people WANT doctored coins.>>>
Except for several loudmouths on several on-line message boards I don't hear the market saying anything about people wanting doctored coins. >>
if doctored coins sell on the open market, you don't think its because someone wants 'em? what's YOUR brilliant explanation then? conspiracy? communism? george bush???
there's no question that doctored coins are highly desirable, & there are literally thousands upon thousands of buyers for 'em. personally, i hate doctored coins, but the reality is, MANY people want 'em. in some cases, doctored coins are all you can afford.
bottom line is, the market has spoken, & there's not a danged thing you can do about it.
K S
Except for several loudmouths on several on-line message boards I don't hear the market saying anything about people wanting doctored coins. >>
if doctored coins sell on the open market, you don't think its because someone wants 'em? what's YOUR brilliant explanation then? conspiracy? communism? george bush???>>>
Hey I might have posted on the Open Forum a time or 2 but that doesn't mean I blame everything on Bush. My brilliant explanation is because most buyers aren't aware that they are buying doctored coins.
It's simple Karl and you must know it - in many cases the buyers are unknowledgable/unaware.
Tell me who is guilty in this scenario and who should be prosecuted?
A gold coin, very valuable one in a TPG holder (highly respected one) sells in a major auction by a highly respected auction company to a highly respected dealer after many highly respected bidders fight over it. Oops a little while later the coin changes colors and putty is discovered. Ok who gets subpoened and arrested? How do you prove who did what to the coin and when?
As long as the grading companies stand behind the coins they grade with their buyback guarantee everybody lives happily ever afterward. If the dealers that sold the doctored coins had to absorb the cost themselves the courts would be clogged with civil suits against the doctors.
<< <i><<<<< <<<THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN. people WANT doctored coins.>>>
Except for several loudmouths on several on-line message boards I don't hear the market saying anything about people wanting doctored coins. >>
if doctored coins sell on the open market, you don't think its because someone wants 'em? what's YOUR brilliant explanation then? conspiracy? communism? george bush???>>>
Hey I might have posted on the Open Forum a time or 2 but that doesn't mean I blame everything on Bush. My brilliant explanation is because most buyers aren't aware that they are buying doctored coins.
<<if doctored coins sell on the open market, you don't think its because someone wants 'em? what's YOUR brilliant explanation then? conspiracy? communism? George bush???>>
It's simple Karl and you must know it - in many cases the buyers are unknowledgable/unaware. >>
ok, sure, i can accept that. so let's just say half the doctored coins are bought by the ignorant. what about the other half? you'll never convince me that all doctored coins, or even the biggest majority, are sold to the ignorant, especially considering the absurd number of dip-doctored coins that are actively pursued by those who KNOW they are dip-doctored, & want 'em anyway.
K S
This is a pretty bold statement. Of course, I do not agree at all.
I buy and sell coins of all values. I also stand behind all of the coins that I sell. I cannot imagine the necessity of encapsulating all coins worth more than a few hundred dollars.
The new/uninformed collector may be best served by only purchasing encapsulated coins, but he should only purchase them from knowledgable sellers and ones that will stand behind their product.
The more sophisticated buyers have the ability to purchase coins any way they can. Even they should purchase coins from buyers that will stand behind them.
As for doctored coins: Do doctored coins have any value?
My answer is that all coins have value.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
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