Coin doctors aren't just deceiving collectors, dealers and grading companies - they're deceiving the
coinguy1
Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
Coin doctors have convinced themselves that what they're doing is OK, since, after all, others do it too. They are deceiving themselves.
They have convinced themselves that if the grading companies grade doctored coins, it's OK to doctor them. They are deceiving themselves.
They have convinced themselves that they are merely giving buyers what they want. They are deceiving themselves.
They have convinced themselves that the grading companies are the enemy, and that therefore anything they can get by the grading companies is OK. They are deceiving themselves.
They have convinced themselves that it's OK to behave unethically, to lie and to enrich themselves financially while harming, if not ruining the hobby for a multitude of collectors. They are deceiving themselves.
They have convinced themselves that money is more important than honor. It is to them, but not to decent people.
Coin doctors are despicable lowlife's, even if they have deceived themselves into thinking otherwise. It angers, saddens and disgusts me that they are so prevalent in this hobby of ours.
If you know any coin doctors and don't think what they're doing is OK, at the very least, don't make it easy for them to continue to deceive themselves.
0
Comments
Excellent points.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
Coin doctors are parasites on our hobby.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
This is just what happens when the words "unregulated" and "money" come together.
They may be deceiving themselves, but their wallet is fatter. And that is the bottom line.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Alter
tone
laser
dip
putty
We are custodians. jws
<< <i>They have convinced themselves that money is more important than honor. >>
Mark: This was well said. All your points are important, but to me, as honor is the most important asset I have, coin doctors lack this critically important part of a person's character. Without honor one has nothing, in my opinion, and deserves nothing. I wouldn't wish anything negative upon anyone, but I have to believe that Karma will have some unexpected surprise(s) for such a dishonorable person.
Sadly, Where there's a will, greed, lack of ethics and conscience and plenty of buyers...there's a way.
make it better than it was. Better...flashier...pricier - "Upcoming scenes from the Six Million Dollar Coin"
Seriously, Mark - you are right on. Conservation to stop further damage is one thing, but dipping out
nice original coins just to get a higher grade is despicable - that original patina is lost forever. Adding
color or otherwise enhancing a coin to make it "better than it was before" is downright fraud.
How can they sleep at night?
Ken
Mark once again many thanks.
Ron
If a dealer knows that he can't tell if a coin is doctored, and he recommends the coin to a buyer without disclosing his incompetence, is he lowlife?
If a collector refuses to buy a perfectly original and wholesome coin because it is not slabbed, is the collector lowlife?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
Have a Great Day!
Louis
I'm slowly getting back into antique cars, at least it's normal to retore a classsic car verses a coin, if done properly. I just don't know any car dealers who do things like put sawdust in rear ends, heavy sealer in transmissions, or actually try to hide a bad engine with tons of STP oil additive---It did happen of coarse before the Fedeal laws on milage tampering fraud jail time and tribble damages plus all legal fees were passed into law. Coin Dealer-doctors decieve themseves into thinking they're presumed innocent by collectors--helping "improve" sort of "restore" coins. Ever heard of a car dealer pressumed innocent before trial??????---
ONEDAY, the doctors will get their laws--all it will take is a few well healed and very mad congressmen.
I think both are wrong, but there seems to be this double standard. One standard for cleaners and one standard to doctors.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
If a dealer knows that he can't tell if a coin is doctored, and he recommends the coin to a buyer without disclosing his incompetence, is he lowlife? YES
If a collector refuses to buy a perfectly original and wholesome coin because it is not slabbed, is the collector lowlife?
"Unslabbed, perfectly original and wholesome coin..." except for some EAC material, Andy, I don't think there's a lot of it around. So this question is academic and by and large, irrelevant. It's like asking someone if he is worried re the possibility of his getting run over by a truck when he crosses the street tomorrow.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I once went to Rik Smits house in NY state (former NBA center)to look at a matching number car. Imagine my grief when after a 4 hour drive that in fact he had the original documents all right, but to another car built within the same few days as his. Rik had never noticed the difference in the numbers or never checked. Same thing happened on another car being offered by a national dealer. He thought he had the orig build sheet to his '69 Roadrunner convertible but in fact had one for a different car built at the same time.
I also wish I could have $100 for every time a seller told me his car had no bondo in it. Frankly, I looked at hundreds of cars for sale over 10 years and NEVER found one without some bondo added
along the way. Very similar to those who say this coin has never been messed with, etc. The number of times a seller has told me his car was all original and not messed with...only to find the paint was the wrong color, a few body panels had been replaced along with the wrong motor (usually a 318 car upgraded to a 440) and trans, and after market parts littered the car. Sure, other than those minor details those cars "WERE" not messed with (lol).
The car hobby is no cleaner than anything else where condition, originality and rarity rule. I'll stay in coins a while longer before reverting back to collector cars. At least with coins in slabs you have a decent chance of getting what you expect. In cars I became very tired of showing up at some old farmer's house to inspect his 10,000 mile mint 1960's collector car with perfect paint only to find a rusted hulk with 110,000 miles at 3X it's true value. The stories I could tell would fill a book. Or the time I drove 200 miles to Oswego, NY to see a rust free "restored" GTX convertible. Yeah, but when I got there the car was stored outside under half a tarp, was rusty with holes so big in the wheel wells and trunk you could fit a football through them! A number of my compadres told me to write a car book to tell the stories, but I figured no one would believe them. I mean, how could people be so blind and/or dishonest to what was right in front of them?
Coins....you got it good.
roadrunner
coins as well?
roadrunner
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Leo
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
I just got done a few minutes ago looking at a couple of older gold commems my grandfather bought decades ago that had been cleaned. No, I won't send them in for grading. No, I wouldn't sell them on eBay failing to mention they've been cleaned. I'll just tuck them away and look at them every couple years or so, thinking about what a shame that someone felt that they had to do this to impress someone.
The guy probably picked up a quite a few more bucks doing this routinely--I wonder if doing it consistently made a difference in his quality of life. My guess is it probably didn't.
But beneath the denial, like all those others who rationalize their deceit, he lived his life realizing that he had sold himself out for very little.
Unlike many others I have a different viewpoint.
I would totally agree when we are talking about classics that are tampered with for the mighty dollar, even BIG auction houses have been caught red handed doing this! Then a grading company gives the coin a higher grade! Then somebody pays stupid money for the coin.
I wonder how many of you have honestlystopped dealing with those auction houses & those grading companies?
I would also agree with you when speaking of prestine coins, no matter what the grade or denomination.
Although when I first started collecting I wanted only raw white coin. A BIG collector, very well known here, once dipped a raw Morgan because I did not like the toning! That was my first experience with dipping. Don't ask I'm not telling.
But when it comes to well worn or problematic coins that are not keys, I must admit that I do think it is OK to make these lok better. These would be coins, whether impoved or not would never go to get graded.
I do not have the means to buy top shelf key coins, sometimes buying a cleaned key is the only way I could afford some of these. This is the only way I could get my hands on a 1893-S Morgan (although I have since sold it).
JMO
This is just what happens when the words "unregulated" and "money" come together.
They may be deceiving themselves, but their wallet is fatter. And that is the bottom line.
Deceiving and cheating people is "not nice", and maybe some of the coin doctors are deceiving themselves but many are just good old fashioned crooks.
No coin psychiatrist needed, just an enforcer.
Unfortunately many of the loudest critics get caught with their hand in the till ( not referring to Coinguy1).
The "conservation" legitimization did not help the situation.
So.............................
It's kind of like a Bugs Bunny cartoon, imagine the Roadrunner as the collector and the coyote as the evil coin doctor.
<< <i>Coin doctors have convinced themselves that what they're doing is OK, since, after all, others do it too. >>
coinguy1, sorry to say this, but right off the bat, your thread has no value for me, because it leads off w/ a ridiculous assertion.
maybe coin doctors "convinced themselves that what they're doing is OK" because THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN. people WANT doctored coins.
imo, this thread is worthless drivel, stemming from an absurd opening statement. therefore the idiocy of some of the followup posts surprises me not at all.
K S
Not really. The market has spoken and said that it is willing to buy things that it doesn't understand if a third party says it's OK. That shouldn't surprise anyone. Same thing happens in many markets, not just coins. We certainly delegate many more important responsibilities to the SEC, the FDIC, and the FDA, for example.
Of course that doesn't mean that people aren't stupidly quick to trust a third party.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Mike, "parasites" is a word I wish I had included in my first post to this thread.
<<So, Mark, what's the event that prompted this particular thread?>>
Lou, I wish it were an "event", rather than innumberable ones over a long period of time, that prompted this.
<< <i>
<< <i>Coin doctors have convinced themselves that what they're doing is OK, since, after all, others do it too. >>
coinguy1, sorry to say this, but right off the bat, your thread has no value for me, because it leads off w/ a ridiculous assertion.
maybe coin doctors "convinced themselves that what they're doing is OK" because THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN. people WANT doctored coins.
imo, this thread is worthless drivel, stemming from an absurd opening statement. therefore the idiocy of some of the followup posts surprises me not at all.
K S >>
Karl, you are free to call my assertion "ridiculous", the thread "worthless drivel" and the opening statement "absurd" if you care to. However, I have heard the "others do it" rationalization/excuse far too many times from too many people, so, my opening statement/assertion was not simply a theory.
On the other hand, your<maybe coin doctors "convinced themselves that what they're doing is OK" because THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN. people WANT doctored coins>>is yet another rationalization/excuse for coin doctors. Andy has already addressed it.
If a dealer knows that he can't tell if a coin is doctored, and he recommends the coin to a buyer without disclosing his incompetence, is he lowlife?
If a collector refuses to buy a perfectly original and wholesome coin because it is not slabbed, is the collector lowlife?
Lowlife? No, but they provide an environment in which doctors can profit.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN. people WANT doctored coins. >>
Not really. People want NICE coins. In most cases they probably don't know [and maybe don't care] how the coins got nice. If the TPG's can't always tell if a coin is "doctored" , then how can you expect a casual collector to tell? Maybe the best thing is not to buy coins at all.
For many collectors, that is true.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
'Originality" will have it's day (although the doctors probably have developed a spray already that will put on 'original skin' and luster on an overdipped coin).
The number of unmessed with coins is being greatly reduced in the last decade or so....
<< <i>
<< <i>Coin doctors have convinced themselves that what they're doing is OK, since, after all, others do it too. >>
coinguy1, sorry to say this, but right off the bat, your thread has no value for me, because it leads off w/ a ridiculous assertion.
maybe coin doctors "convinced themselves that what they're doing is OK" because THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN. people WANT doctored coins.
imo, this thread is worthless drivel, stemming from an absurd opening statement. therefore the idiocy of some of the followup posts surprises me not at all.
K S >>
Karl, I usually have a great deal of respect for your posts, but this one is off the deep end. First you accuse Mark of a ridiculous assertion, then make one yourself...
maybe coin doctors "convinced themselves that what they're doing is OK" because THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN. people WANT doctored coins.
You certainly don't speak for me.
Do you honestly believe the market would pay the pricing premiums for toned coins if the words "artifical toning" or "doctored" were on the slab? Don't believe me? Check the prices realized of ANACS coins that say exactly that and report back what you find. I would say the market has spoken, and it is saying something quite different from what you suggest.
The only reason the market accepts these coins and the premiums sometimes paid for them is because the doctors have DECEIVED them into thinking that the doctor's products are natural, and the TPGs are party to their deception (some more than others). If the doctors would be truthful when selling their coins, their market would dry up, or at a mimumum, their profits significantly reduced, and we would all be much better off.
Respectfully....Mike
<< <i><< Coin doctors have convinced themselves that what they're doing is OK, since, after all, others do it too. >>
coinguy1, sorry to say this, but right off the bat, your thread has no value for me, because it leads off w/ a ridiculous assertion.
maybe coin doctors "convinced themselves that what they're doing is OK" because THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN. people WANT doctored coins.
imo, this thread is worthless drivel, stemming from an absurd opening statement. therefore the idiocy of some of the followup posts surprises me not at all.
K S >>
Karl, you are free to call my assertion "ridiculous", the thread "worthless drivel" and the opening statement "absurd" if you care to. However, I have heard the "others do it" rationalization/excuse far too many times from too many people, so, my opening statement/assertion was not simply a theory. >>
that's all fine & dandy, but it sounds to me like you are saying that ALL coin doctors are convinced that what they're doing is ok ONLY because "other do it too"
while such a overly-simplistic explanation of the existence of coin doctoring might suit the purposes of your intent, which is to paint ALL coin doctoring as evil, it's irresponsible on your part to make that assertion, as if everyone else who buys coins is supposed to follow your stance lock stock & barrel. i love original coins. i prefer original coins! but this is REAL LIFE, & many instances ARE IMPROVED through the services of a coin doctor.
SOME of us can actually think for ourselves, thank you very much, & SOME of us understand that there are MANY times when the services of a coin doctor are a welcome & positive contribution to the hobby.
1 last thing, On the other hand, your<maybe coin doctors "convinced themselves that what they're doing is OK" because THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN. people WANT doctored coins>>is yet another rationalization/excuse for coin doctors. Andy has already addressed it. , show me where.
<< <i>Karl, I usually have a great deal of respect for your posts, but this one is off the deep end. First you accuse Mark of a ridiculous assertion, then make one yourself...
maybe coin doctors "convinced themselves that what they're doing is OK" because THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN. people WANT doctored coins.
You certainly don't speak for me. >>
mike-in-fl, read my 1st word carefully, because i put there very deliberately. that word is: MAYBE. you'll note that i specifically use that word because, unlike coinguy1's post (which IS ridiculous because of it) blatantly assumes that a coin dr. couldn't be convinced that what he's doing is OK for any other reason that "others do it to".
THAT'S the idiocy, to make such an absurd assertion that flies in the face of reality in a blatant manner.
K S
Is it wrong ? For me and the INDUSTRY ? YES
Is it bad ? For me : YES... and the INDUSTRY ? NO
Will any coin doctors ever stop ? NOT UNTIL WE STOP CHASING AFTER DIPPED and TONED COINS.
Let's open the dialogue on it since you were a grader at NGC..... WHO PROMOTES CONSERVATION OF COINS ?
duh.... DOCTOR DOCTOR, fix my coin, its worth so much more without this crud ....
I am a member of the ANA and every month I get the news of what NCS has done to coins and I want to grab a distress bag.
The whole world's gone mad money....it's a game that's more fun. Doctors not only FOOL the Experts, They get sanctioned by them (NCS/NGC/ANA/PNG.....) and PEOPLE promote it.
It's okay to dress in suit and tie and do it for NCS, but let's not exclude the common folks.... We can MAKE coins for them, too
Sadly, the coins people want come at the expense of purity !
Joe
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Karl, I did not mean to indicate that any of my points necessarily applied to "all" coin doctors - sorry for your confusion.
<<while such a overly-simplistic explanation of the existence of coin doctoring might suit the purposes of your intent, which is to paint ALL coin doctoring as evil, it's irresponsible on your part to make that assertion, as if everyone else who buys coins is supposed to follow your stance lock stock & barrel. i love original coins. i prefer original coins! but this is REAL LIFE, & many instances ARE IMPROVED through the services of a coin doctor.
SOME of us can actually think for ourselves, thank you very much, & SOME of us understand that there are MANY times when the services of a coin doctor are a welcome & positive contribution to the hobby.>>
I do not believe that anything and everything done to a coin is "evil" and have never said that. It is often a matter of motives, disclosure (or lack thereof) and veracity.
<<1 last thing, On the other hand, your<maybe coin doctors "convinced themselves that what they're doing is OK" because THE MARKET HAS SPOKEN. people WANT doctored coins>>is yet another rationalization/excuse for coin doctors. Andy has already addressed it. , show me where.>>
You know where, and Mike subsequently addressed it as well.
just as likely, the collector/dealer community's position of not taking a more hard-line stance on things has been a signal to them that we all don't care.i have run down the full disclosure trail and been scorned for it, but it remains the only viable long term solution if you really want results. otherwise, threads like this will continue and the results which prompted it will also continue.
in a word, apathy.
Futility breeds apathy.
<< <i>The antique car hobby has nothing over coins. I played with Mopar Muscle cars from 1992 to 2003 and saw plenty of deception, esp with so-called "matching number" original engines, so called "original paint," so called "no filler" or "bondo" and altered odometers. One of my cars, a so-called low miles 22,000 GTX, turned out to have about 50,000 more miles on it after I did a titel search and sifted through all the original documents available through the state DMV's. 6 previous owners had never bothered to do this. I found a clear case where a dealer took a signed title (but w/o the mileage entered) and magically got a new title with 15,000 miles (this was 1983 or so).
I once went to Rik Smits house in NY state (former NBA center)to look at a matching number car. Imagine my grief when after a 4 hour drive that in fact he had the original documents all right, but to another car built within the same few days as his. Rik had never noticed the difference in the numbers or never checked. Same thing happened on another car being offered by a national dealer. He thought he had the orig build sheet to his '69 Roadrunner convertible but in fact had one for a different car built at the same time.
I also wish I could have $100 for every time a seller told me his car had no bondo in it. Frankly, I looked at hundreds of cars for sale over 10 years and NEVER found one without some bondo added
along the way. Very similar to those who say this coin has never been messed with, etc. The number of times a seller has told me his car was all original and not messed with...only to find the paint was the wrong color, a few body panels had been replaced along with the wrong motor (usually a 318 car upgraded to a 440) and trans, and after market parts littered the car. Sure, other than those minor details those cars "WERE" not messed with (lol).
The car hobby is no cleaner than anything else where condition, originality and rarity rule. I'll stay in coins a while longer before reverting back to collector cars. At least with coins in slabs you have a decent chance of getting what you expect. In cars I became very tired of showing up at some old farmer's house to inspect his 10,000 mile mint 1960's collector car with perfect paint only to find a rusted hulk with 110,000 miles at 3X it's true value. The stories I could tell would fill a book. Or the time I drove 200 miles to Oswego, NY to see a rust free "restored" GTX convertible. Yeah, but when I got there the car was stored outside under half a tarp, was rusty with holes so big in the wheel wells and trunk you could fit a football through them! A number of my compadres told me to write a car book to tell the stories, but I figured no one would believe them. I mean, how could people be so blind and/or dishonest to what was right in front of them?
Coins....you got it good.--
-------------
-------------
I'm in such a bad mood I'm ready to agree with you roadrunner!! Just "made a firm deal" on a supposedly original Stingray coupe--completely loaded (automatic) and in "storage since 1971"---- The description had missed the small detail that it had 3, not 2 taillights (a little hard to have 100% original paint huh?)--the frame numbers were covered with thick undercoating--who knows why?--to hid a bad frame-- or stolen serial numbers/ car. Finally the guy actually wanted me to give cash as a wire--and only then release the title. Serial numbers are so often restamped on engines these days--I just didn'y waste any more time. --I sure was pretty--too bad!
Really my only point roadrunner is that it is I feel in cars it's ethical to "fully restore" or "doctor" a classic. IF the entire effort is to return it to the exact original "factory condition". With proper advice from a top restoration expert, I think a buyer can obtain a very nice restored car, and at worst be advised as to EXACTLY what was done to it during the restoration.
I unfortunately agree with you--I want an original unmessed with example with nothing faked, like stamped serial numers put on the "right date" casting number block etc. I doubt it is possible to find one of these, unless Barret Jackson runs a full national title history (others do it too) 0r-- the car has a long museum history and know list of shows/ owners with photo history. Pretty hard to find, I'd say--although there are lots of thives claiming they have one of these!!!
By the way--I disagree about bondo--unless you mean the stuff used to hide rust etc. The new cyanide-etc based paint systems actually reqire a VERY THIN coat of bondo to have the panels come out straight and the clear--when sanded-- then even have the clear not have that "wavy" look". But to support your point, I can honestly say I have never painted a car (out of 100 or so) in any type paint that is not factory stock---In my opinion a correctly painted car in nitrocellulous lacquer looks closer to the way the car should look---and not an overrestored mirror of perfection!
roadrunner >>
Indeed.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>-- "in a word, apathy." --
Futility breeds apathy. >>
I believe I care, therefore, I do !
The Truth cannot express itself. It has to be cointinually spoken.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
and collectors don't care one way or the other. If they like the coin, then it's just fine from what I keep seeing.
What motivates people to rip off people is as probably as varied as the motivations you hear from prison inmates.
Except for several loudmouths on several on-line message boards I don't hear the market saying anything about people wanting doctored coins.