Three PCGS PR65 Motto Seated Liberty Dollars...one brought $12,650 and the other two, $8625 each - w

coinguy1

I realize that it's virtually impossible to grade Proof coins from images or to know how true-to-life the images are. But, if you feel like it, guess which coin was the one I just bought for my client at almost 50% more than the price of the two I/we passed on? Regardless of how you feel about these three coins, this is just one from among the countless examples of coins of the same type and grade selling at significantly different prices. In this particular case I just happen to have first hand knowledge of the coin that brought the premium.


Coin #1





Coin #2





Coin #3

tradedollarnut

itsnotjustme

Coin number 2.

rhedden

This is really a shot in the dark, but I'm going to guess that one of the three had cleaner fields than the other two (meaning less hairlines). Another possibility is that one of the coins (the topmost coin perhaps?) had the prettiest toning, so it brought the big premium, which would be consistent with current market conditions. Curious to see the answer.

richardshipp

How would I know, I almost bought a counterfeit yesterday

But in the learning mode:

I bet coin #1 is much nicer than pictured, although it looks like something going on near the date.

Coin #2 has some small dark spots, so I figure you passed that one.

Coin #3 is beautiful, although in hand might be darker?

Hmmmm..

I'll say.....

Coin #3 because thats the one TDN picked

Julian

IMHO, #2 is the best from the photos.

morgannut2

Number three 1871 hasthe mosr eyeappeal--but what was the :"fisrt hand knowledge yu had?" TDN;s checking account balance? =or something more historicaly interesting or uNique to to the con to Help in selection???

coinguy1

<<but what was the "fisrt hand knowledge" yu had?>>

I viewed the coins in person and bought one of them.

ROBERTB

Number one. It'd be the easiest to dip white and look good.

seanq

I'll vote #2, as it has the most original looking skin. The toppermost coin looks dipped (recently, and possibly poorly) and the bottom coin also looks like it was once cleaned and retoned.

But then again, I'm assuming your client wants an original looking coin over one with neat toning.


Sean Reynolds

topstuf

ditto skin on two.

Leiana

Having limited experience (actually none) with Seated Proofs, this post may seem silly, but you did say guess.

Coin Number one is well struck and shows no obvious hairlines (even though that doesn't mean they're not there). The color looks nice, but from the photograph it doesn't look very deep. Of course, proofs from an image do not look as good as proofs in hand. It's hard to tell how the cameo is, but the reverse doesn't really look very cameo.

Coin Number two looks to be struck a little off center, I can see where the rim has been pushed up a little bit below the date and below the denomination. Of course, that is probably irrelevant, but if I was buying a proof coin, I would want it to look like it was made properly and with care. The surfaces look dull, perhaps dipped at one point.

Coin Number three looks to have deep toning and a cameo appearance on both sides, but there is something going on in the field to the right of Miss Liberty, in the image at least.

So that's what I think of the coins from the images, but I don't know which coin is better.

I'm feeling indecisive.

-Amanda

bidask

coin 2

Rarity

number 1 has nicer color, number 3 has better strike, number 2 is just average.
For a bit more than 8K, I would take either #1 or #3 anytime and will pass on #2

bestclser1

Number3

kcnovice

I know nothing about these, so my guess is based on what I think you'd look for.
#3- appears to be struck the best, and if you take away the color on all 3-#3 looks best
(in the pics anyway) to me.

Longacre

#3?

CoinRaritiesOnline

It is absolutely impossible to tell from those photos. But, since it is just a guess, I vote for #3 as well.

ziggy29

I like #2.

tradedollarnut

<< <i>It is absolutely impossible to tell from those photos. >>



Not if you collect 19th century proofs and know what certain attributes look like in Heritage images.

roadrunner

These rarely sell according to quality of strike unless it's really gross. Surfaces (mirrors & hairlines) and eye appeal.

I think #1 looks like an auction retread. Looks too familiar. Could be AT as well.
#2 looks blah....pass on that. Too dusky. Bet #1 and #2 are NGC 65's.

#3 GETS MY VOTE. Seems to have more of "it." I look the look and toning pattern. As a result probably less hairlined.
And probably a PCGS65 solid for grade.

roadrunner

pbfloyd

You gave almost 50% more for a coin that no one can agree is the best one. How does you client feel about the purchase? I personally cannot see a big difference in the three. Is the premium worth it ?

coinguy1

<< <i>

<< <i>It is absolutely impossible to tell from those photos. >>



Not if you collect 19th century proofs and know what certain attributes look like in Heritage images. >>

Bruce, I don't doubt for a minute that you are extremely skilled at that. How about sharing some of that information and analysis with us with respect to these three coins?



<< <i>You gave almost 50% more for a coin that no one can agree is the best one. How does you client feel about the purchase? I personally cannot see a big difference in the three. Is the premium worth it ? >>

I believe that in person it would be no contest. My client will be extremely pleased when he sees the coin and neither of the other two would have appealed to him. I believe that the premium is well worth it - others may disagree.

tradedollarnut

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>It is absolutely impossible to tell from those photos. >>



Not if you collect 19th century proofs and know what certain attributes look like in Heritage images. >>

Bruce, I don't doubt for a minute that you are extremely skilled at that. How about sharing some of that information and analysis with us with respect to these three coins? >>



Roadrunner did a good job already. Examples one and two have mottled toning with limited mirrors in evidence - that quality is readily available at 'generic pricing' in the Seated Liberty series. Example number three shows evidence of 'electric toning' .... which is highly unusual and desired in these big coins. Any sort of damage to the mirrors eradicates this feature ... thus these areas are undoubtably pristine and highly reflective. Add to that it shows signs of highly attractive concentric toning.

No doubt in my mind it was the third coin.

BillJones

My guess would be coin #1. I don't think that the picture is doing it justice. I think that it looks much better in person.

Coin #3 looks like it's been dipped and has retoned unevenly. Coin #2 looks dull.

For the record I paid $3,750 against a Gray Sheet bid of $2,500 for an 1869 dollar in PGCS PR-63, Cameo for my collection. I probably paid too much, but unlike most PR-63 graded Seated dollars I've seen, my coin did not have the usual washed out, over dipped look that so many of these coins tend to have. I guess the dealer liked it too because a few months later I saw it in one of his ads to buy coins that he ran in an issue of the Gray Sheet.

And my pictures don't do this coin justice either.

pbfloyd

In my unprofessional opinion I say coin 2 because it has the toning coinguy seems to like.

elwood

#3

Barndog

I like coin #1 the best, not that it is the most expensive, just appeals to my numismatic eye

Leiana

I am interested in learning about what makes a coin like this better than arguably comparable examples.

Thanks for starting the thread, Mark! It has already brought out some interesting discussion.

-Amanda

aficionado

#1 from someone who knows nothing.

Heywood

From photos-

# 3 looks cleaned and re-toned, although there does appear to be some mirrors showing though.

It also seems to have a better look to the strike, esp in the rev sheild.

#2 looks dipped out and dull ( Maybe just the picture angle?)

#1 again looks a little Dull, (strange lighting during the photography?)

I could see #3 looking much better in hand
I was going to go 1, But I'll take 3.

pbfloyd

so when do we find out? The experts are saying 3 I didnt choose 3 because the photos were much brighter and I figured it was a trick.

robertpr

My WAG is that your purchased coin number 1.

elwood

<< <i>My WAG is that your purchased coin number 1. >>



That was my second guess.



#2 is just a little too crusty ( at least from the pics )

pbfloyd

Wonder why he won't post which one it is?.........

Leiana

<< <i>Wonder why he won't post which one it is?......... >>



Perhaps Mark wants to give more people the opportunity to put their opinions out there.

-Amanda

coinguy1

Thus far, if I have tabulated the guesses correctly, they stand as follows:

#1: 5 1/2 votes
#2: 6 votes
#3: 10 1/2 votes

I will reveal the answer and comment briefly, later this evening.

Thanks for your participation and remember, price differentials in these amounts/percentages are not that uncommon. Nor are they undeserved, based upon differences in technical quality and/or eye-appeal.

sweetwilliet

I vote #1, the color and looks appeals to me most, since I'm guessing the other two are pretty close in technical grade.

MikeInFL

I would guess #1 was the expensive one, but this must be a trick question, so I'm gonna guess #3 was the most expensive.

grabba

#3

pbfloyd

3 is the best photo. The other two look almost scannned. I will stick with my #2 It looks the most natural

Pentimento

Vote of #3 from this new guy who was too afraid to be the first one to say it

Ronyahski

Betcha #1 is hazy and is darker than the pic shows, an NGC65.
#2 looks dull and uninteresting, another NGC 65

Vote for #3, probably looks even a bit better than the pic.

Coinosaurus

#2 looks the most original to me.

ColonialCoinUnion

I say #1 was the big dough.

pbfloyd

ok coinguy Which one is it. This thread is dying. I agree that 3 looks the best but the photo is much brighter than the other 2. I like the natural look of coin #2. Either way you need to let this forum know your choice.

messydesk

#3 does it for me more than the others. #1 has has knee surgery. #2 reminds me too much of all the beige walls, furniture, chairs, etc., at work.

a039

I think #2

PB Floyd got in a shot at the unflappable Mr Feld-- the undisputed champ of eye appeal and wannabe moderator!

pbfloyd

pbfloyd

coinguy........ dont you think it late enough. Are you going to post it at midnight? This thread died a long time ago. Do you want it to just go away?

a039

<< <i>coinguy........ dont you think it late enough. Are you going to post it at midnight? This thread died a long time ago. Do you want it to just go away? >>



Relax homie! Everything will be revealed in due course. Most people pm'd him for the answer, maybe he is still answering those

Take care, Mark