I, personally, would not pay $6,500 for a coin that I hoped to retail at $7,000. Not if I wanted to stay in business for long. Looks like he wanted to do you a favor and then when he got the coin in hand it wasn't as nice as the image so he split the diff.
You say it's been in Heritage since then - what was the price realized? I would imagine they took a loss. Instead of focusing on the $350 you say you are out, why not focus on the money they actually saved you with their revised offer? You'll be happier that way. >>
Thanks, for the input. I'm not sure what it hammered for at HA but I've seen it offered on other sites for almost 9K. I'll never agree with what he did but I've put it behind me. He should have been HONEST with me.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
I believe the issue is that a dealer once he has taken possession of a coin, attempts to chip away enough off the agreed upon price so that the seller will suck it up, and not ask for the coin to be returned. If they had wanted another $500 dollars off, the seller may have asked for the coin to be returned, but $350 might not have been worth the hassle. This dance is done everyday in Car Lots across the country, and even glorified on TV "Pawn Stars", "American Pickers". Dropping the price an extra 5% may seem like small beans, but when transactions are done daily this can add up to thousands of dollars over a year.
1) Coin was sold by DVRC 2) WalkerFan presented the coin DVRC for buy-back, and used their imagery! 3) DVRC made offer to buy the coin at said price (we don't know if the stated at minimum, or might be less, we don't know if it was a firm offer) 4) WalkerFan shipped coin to DVRC 5) DVRC took possession of coin, and offered less than original offer (i view this as a power play, the ball is in their court) 6) WalkerFan accepted 2nd offer 7) WalkerFan was upset, posted on forum... 8) Monday morning quarterbacks decided to play the game.
I have done several deals that involved the trust of out of town dealers. The trusted my to describe the items, and ship them. I trusted them that I would accept at minimum the agreed upon price, or more depending on the in-hand inspection. If I feel like the dealer may just be chipping away a few $$$'s because they can, I will have the items returned, and chose not to repeat business with these dealers.
I detest the games played by some individuals.
WTB... errors, New Orleans gold, and circulated 20th key date coins!
<< <i>I believe the issue is that a dealer once he has taken possession of a coin, attempts to chip away enough off the agreed upon price so that the seller will suck it up, and not ask for the coin to be returned. If they had wanted another $500 dollars off, the seller may have asked for the coin to be returned, but $350 might not have been worth the hassle. This dance is done everyday in Car Lots across the country, and even glorified on TV "Pawn Stars", "American Pickers". Dropping the price an extra 5% may seem like small beans, but when transactions are done daily this can add up to thousands of dollars over a year.
1) Coin was sold by DVRC 2) WalkerFan presented the coin DVRC for buy-back, and used their imagery! 3) DVRC made offer to buy the coin at said price (we don't know if the stated at minimum, or might be less, we don't know if it was a firm offer) 4) WalkerFan shipped coin to DVRC 5) DVRC took possession of coin, and offered less than original offer (i view this as a power play, the ball is in their court) 6) WalkerFan accepted 2nd offer 7) WalkerFan was upset, posted on forum... 8) Monday morning quarterbacks decided to play the game.
I have done several deals that involved the trust of out of town dealers. The trusted my to describe the items, and ship them. I trusted them that I would accept at minimum the agreed upon price, or more depending on the in-hand inspection. If I feel like the dealer may just be chipping away a few $$$'s because they can, I will have the items returned, and chose not to repeat business with these dealers.
I detest the games played by some individuals. >>
THANK YOU---you are CORRECT
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
If it went down exactly like WF said, knocking off another $350 after an agreed upon price is not cool. Similarly, if WF bought the coin for $7000 and when the coin arrived said that he would keep it for $6650, that would have been similarly unethical.
<< <i>If it went down exactly like WF said, knocking off another $350 after an agreed upon price is not cool. Similarly, if WF bought the coin for $7000 and when the coin arrived said that he would keep it for $6650, that would have been similarly unethical. >>
this is the power of possession... once coin is in hand they feel they have the power to chip away at the sticker price, and they expect the other party to see it not worth the hassle.
WTB... errors, New Orleans gold, and circulated 20th key date coins!
<< <i>If it went down exactly like WF said, knocking off another $350 after an agreed upon price is not cool. Similarly, if WF bought the coin for $7000 and when the coin arrived said that he would keep it for $6650, that would have been similarly unethical. >>
this is the power of possession... once coin is in hand they feel they have the power to chip away at the sticker price, and they expect the other party to see it not worth the hassle. >>
I have never been akin to such a transaction. If I do not like the coin at the price, I usually do not buy it in the first place. If it comes to me on approval and I think it is overpriced for what it is, I send it back. Similarly, if I sent a coin to someone else and they do not like it at the agreed upon price, they return it. No harm, no foul.
WalkerFan - Three questions. First, are you certain that DV made a firm offer of $6500 (net to you) for the coin? Second, how long did it take you to accept the offer? Three, how did DV explain/justify the lower offer of 6150?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
1) it would be helpful if the OP answered Andy's questions 2) I'd like to know the date of the coin 3) as far as Monday morning quarterbacking goes - it comes with the territory. If you're gonna post a rant, people are gonna ask questions. Deal with it or don't post it in the first place.
Come to think of it, I do have one similar scenario to WF's. I am not going to mention the dealer, but it is one who is generally well-liked in the numismatic community, on the forum, and I like him and his associates personally.
I bought a coin at a similar price point to WF's coin, and a couple years later, was looking to sell it. I asked the dealer who sold it to me if he would purchase it as he generally likes to buy back coins, and he said to return it to him for an offer. I do not remember the exact number but it was close to half of what I had paid for it. (I was hoping for significantly more.) I thought it was a crappy offer and a crappy way to handle it. I politely told him to return the coin, and only them did he move significantly on his offer. I do not care to play the hostage-ransom game and having done so, I will not do business with that dealer in the future.
<< <i>WalkerFan - Three questions. First, are you certain that DV made a firm offer of $6500 (net to you) for the coin? Second, how long did it take you to accept the offer? Three, how did DV explain/justify the lower offer of 6150? >>
YES--he absolutely made a firm offer of 6500 NET. He said the only way that it wouldn't go down was if there was something wrong with the coin that was not apparent in the images (scratches, spots) and there was NOTHING--I fully disclosed EVERYTHING about this coin to him. He knew full well that there wasn't anything wrong with it, as it was HIS coin to begin with!! His wife also reassured me (over the phone, as I spoke to them BOTH several times) and she told me to 'trust them' and that it was 'just a formality' and that I would get the $$$. she had sent me images of the coin and had also remembered it. He claimed that he didn't remember anything about the coin (total amnesia, I guess), which I find hard to believe---- but whatever. Even still, I believed and trusted him and the images were VERY revealing.
I accepted the offer and sent the coin IMMEDIATELY---he had it in his possession within 7 days.
He completely changed his story about offering me 6500. He claimed that he did not promise me 6500 (another lie). He said that NOW that he's seen it---he simply didn't feel it was worth that much!! He gave me some BS about the market changing, which it HAD NOT, as I probably know more about market trends than he does. Besides, that would've been completely IRRELEVANT, anyway, b/c that should've been taken into consideration, while he'd been making me the offer in the first place!! His story kept changing---It was all a lot of BS to try to get a bigger piece of the pie and get more money out of me. It was VERY dishonest on his part.
I am getting mad all over again.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
<< <i>1) it would be helpful if the OP answered Andy's questions 2) I'd like to know the date of the coin 3) as far as Monday morning quarterbacking goes - it comes with the territory. If you're gonna post a rant, people are gonna ask questions. Deal with it or don't post it in the first place. >>
I will answer any and all questions, as I have NOTHING to hide. Coin was a 19-S---I think that I answered Andy's other questions.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
<< <i>Come to think of it, I do have one similar scenario to WF's. I am not going to mention the dealer, but it is one who is generally well-liked in the numismatic community, on the forum, and I like him and his associates personally.
I bought a coin at a similar price point to WF's coin, and a couple years later, was looking to sell it. I asked the dealer if he would purchase it as he generally likes to buy back coins, and he said to return it to him for an offer. I do not remember the exact number but it was close to half of what I had paid for it. (I was hoping for significantly more.) I politely told him to ship back. I thought it was a crappy offer and a crappy way to handle it. I politely told him to return the coin, and only them did he move significantly on his offer. I do not care to play the hostage-ransom game and having done so, I will not do business with that dealer in the future. >>
This is part of game I've noticed since I retired as a dealer. Many dealers pay more for coins they buy from other dealers and offer less, sometimes FAR LESS, to the public for the same items. I have noticed this when I have tried to sell coins with whom I did business when I was active.
I sold some coins (duplicates knocked out by up grades) to a local dealer who paid my asking prices the first time. I left him room, and he had all the coins sold within a week. On the next batch, however, he made low ball offers, which was a mistake his part. If he had worked with me better, I would have continued to have given him the "first shot." As it was he now gets in line with the others.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
You did. And where that leaves us is, unfortunately, nowhere. We'll never know whose memory is faulty, who misunderstood what, who misspoke, or who had less than pure intentions. All we get is a cheap lesson. Don't count your chickens before they hatch, and don't commit to spend the proceeds of a sale until you're 100% sure that you will get paid.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I think that I answered Andy's other questions.
You did... Don't count your chickens before they hatch, and don't commit to spend the proceeds of a sale until you're 100% sure that you will get paid. >>
I think that this is the important lesson. When you are in need of cash, you are not in the optimal position to get the most for your coin.
<< <i>I think that I answered Andy's other questions.
You did. And where that leaves us is, unfortunately, nowhere. We'll never know whose memory is faulty, who misunderstood what, who misspoke, or who had less than pure intentions. All we get is a cheap lesson. Don't count your chickens before they hatch, and don't commit to spend the proceeds of a sale until you're 100% sure that you will get paid. >>
That's for sure. I have done business with other dealers this way, MANY times in the past, so I didn't think that I'd have a problem with a long standing firm such as this one. I was wrong and I was duped and I am now reluctant to do this kind of business, in the future, b/c of this incident. I think the main lesson here is to never commit to buy another coin before you have the money, in hand, b/c then if someone decides to cheat you, at least you have some options.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
"All we get is a cheap lesson. Don't count your chickens before they hatch, and don't commit to spend the proceeds of a sale until you're 100% sure that you will get paid."
Well ... yes and no.
I get calls nearly every day from collectors or dealers offering to sell me something. When we come to terms on the phone that collector or dealer CAN "count his or her chickens" just as they could count them from a "verbal" from you Andy.
BUT, repeat BUT I ask that collector or dealer to memorialize our verbal agreement with an immediate email or "direct" or "PM" (or I tell them that I will send over my written confirmation ASAP) so nothing is left for misinterpretation a week or two later. A simple email confirmation would have no one guessing here as to who had impure motives in "Walkerfan's" story.
The real cheap lesson .... just confirm your verbals with a prompt follow up written confirmation and virtually all confusion will likely be removed from the deal. Now if you deal with a "deadbeat" on either side of the deal ... no written confirmation is going to change that.
Just my 2 cents
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
The real cheap lesson .... just confirm your verbals with a prompt follow up written confirmation and virtually all confusion will likely be removed from the deal.
Good advice. Then again, in WalkerFan's case, the e-mail would have read something like "Sending coin at the agreed price of 6500, subject to inspection". And the same course of events would likely have ensued.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
"Sending coin at the agreed price of 6500, subject to inspection".
In other words ... $6,500 sight-seen. In such a case, the buyer can pay $6,500, pass entirely on the deal or make a counter-offer. I suspect this would be the very position of DVRC.
I suspect the OP's position is the deal was not subject to any conditions whatsoever ... a "done deal" (RK)
Of course, the writing could have easily stated if the purchase was sight-seen or sight-unseen - no?
Wondercoin
P.S. Edited to add, I suppose one could assert the right to inspection comes along with a covenant of good faith and fair dealing in some states.
Just my 2 cents.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>"Sending coin at the agreed price of 6500, subject to inspection".
In other words ... $6,500 sight-seen. In such a case, the buyer can pay $6,500, pass entirely on the deal or make a counter-offer. I suspect this would be the very position of DVRC.
I suspect the OP's position is the deal was not subject to any conditions whatsoever ... a "done deal" (RK)
Of course, the writing could have easily stated if the purchase was sight-seen or sight-unseen - no?
Wondercoin
P.S. Edited to add, I suppose one could assert the right to inspection comes along with a covenant of good faith and fair dealing in some states.
Just my 2 cents. >>
I think the fact that the dealer sold the coin to WF negates the automatic sight-seen proviso as the dealer has already seen the coin and presumably knows it. In this case, if the dealer requires the sight-seen condition to complete the deal, he should clearly state so, and based on the information provided here, he did not do so.
YES--he absolutely made a firm offer of 6500 NET. He said the only way that it wouldn't go down was if there was something wrong with the coin that was not apparent in the images (scratches, spots) and there was NOTHING--I fully disclosed EVERYTHING about this coin to him. He knew full well that there wasn't anything wrong with it, as it was HIS coin to begin with!! His wife also reassured me (over the phone, as I spoke to them BOTH several times) and she told me to 'trust them' and that it was 'just a formality' and that I would get the $$$. she had sent me images of the coin and had also remembered it. He claimed that he didn't remember anything about the coin (total amnesia, I guess), which I find hard to believe---- but whatever.
So Rich said he didn't remember it and he wanted the right of inspection. Clear enough. As for Rich's wife's assurances - assuming they were as related by WF - it's messy, but Rich's request for inspection didn't go away.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Andy introduced the "subject to inspection" condition (and I see for good reason) and hence my comment.
But, with respect to your comment RYK ... if I sold a "70" graded PCGS silver eagle a few years back and the coin was offered to me years later I would request the sight-seen purchase (or bid accordingly for a sight-unseen purchase). The coin could have easily "changed" during that time period for a variety of reasons including the improper storage of the owner during his time of ownership. Of course, this is rarely a concern for circulated "dirty gold" coins.
Memorialize the best you can and most of the confusion (admittedly not all) goes away.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
A lot of good observations, arguments, and lessons here. The bottom line for me is the dealer reneged on his pledge. I trust that WF did not misunderstand, and I don't blame him for feeling cornered and cheated. Lance.
<< <i>If I were a dealer, there is no way I'd make a sight unseen offer on a coin without remembering it clearly and right of inspection.
Most dealers will, at a price. >>
I have sent images to Robert Hughes, Mark Feld and the list goes on and on of dealers and coins that they have never held in their hand. They have ALL quoted me a fair price and it was a done deal and I sent them the coins----a SEAMLESS transaction with NO problems. This Rich guy has had the opportunity to see and OWN the coin and he decides to lie to me and betray my trust for 350 bucks---I hope it was worth it to him---plain and simple. Because he and I are DONE, permanently, and I am a STRONG buyer of Walkers and MY reputation speaks for itself. TRUST means EVERYTHING in business. Thank you to everyone for their good & honest insight.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
<< <i>If I were a dealer, there is no way I'd make a sight unseen offer on a coin without remembering it clearly and right of inspection.
Most dealers will, at a price. >>
I have sent images to Robert Hughes, Mark Feld and the list goes on and on of coins that they have never held in their hand. They have ALL quoted me a fair price and it was a done deal and I sent them the coins----a SEAMLESS transaction with NO problems. >>
That is not a business model i would care to participate in - unless said coins were just generics and not a $7k scarcity.
In the past month, I bought (2) deals of gold spouse coins from (2) separate dealers with each deal having my clear published condition that the coins must be "problem-free". Some of the gold coins in both deals were badly spotted ... the tiny red spots that no collectors want on their coins. I paid both dealers in full for their invoices and politely sent a note along with each check showing them which coins were problem coins and why I could not accept such coins in the future as they were essentially "melt value" with these problems. I figured I lost a few hundred dollars per deal on these problem coins on these $5,000- $10,000 invoices. Not a good thing, but also not going to "bankrupt me". About a week later, I get a check from one of the dealers reimbursing me for the difference between what he shipped me and what I should have received under my "problem-free" condition. I never heard back from the other dealer. I will never even entertain a purchase from that other dealer in the future without a clear return privilege on the coins for any reason (generally one chance to make an "honest" mistake with me). The first dealer I will plan to buy anything offered to me in the future that I can use and he is clearly a "good guy". I, of course, also want to be someone folks want to ship to and not be seen as a "cherry-picker" returning a few bad apples and keeping all the good ones.
So, in the real world ...
1. Having a right to inspection (or conditions) may not be all that important all of the time especially on coins that are not rarities or ultra rarities or for many modern bullion type coins (or where you want to try to do a ton of business and not be seen as too tough to deal with); and most importantly ....
2. Just try to deal with trading partners you like and/or trust wherever possible. If this happens, I believe it will be a rare event when things "blow up" over a 5% or so disagreement.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I think the fact that the dealer sold the coin to WF negates the automatic sight-seen proviso as the dealer has already seen the coin and presumably knows it. In this case, if the dealer requires the sight-seen condition to complete the deal, he should clearly state so, and based on the information provided here, he did not do so.
I have to disagree. It was specifically stated that he did NOT remember the coin and DID want to inspect it again. I do note the lack of a CAC sticker and the OP stated it was 'nothing special'. I can definitely envision a situation where the dealer expected a solid for the grade coin and got a 'nothing special' coin - and adjusted the price 5% to limit his loss.
<< <i>If I were a dealer, there is no way I'd make a sight unseen offer on a coin without remembering it clearly and right of inspection. >>
It appears that Legend does: "SORRY WE DO NOT BUY COINS SIGHTUNSEEN (UNLESS THEY ARE CAC STICKERED)" >>
CAC stickered is not exactly sight unseen - Laura has known JA for a very long time and if a dog walks in the door she knows how to get it off the market with no loss to herself.
<< <i>I think the fact that the dealer sold the coin to WF negates the automatic sight-seen proviso as the dealer has already seen the coin and presumably knows it. In this case, if the dealer requires the sight-seen condition to complete the deal, he should clearly state so, and based on the information provided here, he did not do so.
I have to disagree. It was specifically stated that he did NOT remember the coin and DID want to inspect it again. I do note the lack of a CAC sticker and the OP stated it was 'nothing special'. I can definitely envision a situation where the dealer expected a solid for the grade coin and got a 'nothing special' coin - and adjusted the price 5% to limit his loss. >>
I missed that nugget. As I said, if the dealer said that the price was contingent on his reinspection of the coin, then all bets are off. It sounds like WF did not exactly receive that message, and the devil is in the communication details that we are not privvy to.
I am all about getting all the info and not just jumping on dealers. That said, a few threads, particularly of late, you have just poked and poked at whoever the OP of the thread was, in reference to any issue with a dealer. In this case, I wonder.....do you have a personal, or even professional, relationship with the dealer in question? You sure are nitpicking and tossing your two-bits in quite a bit against the OP (as I read it) on this issue.
As has already been said......IF things went down as written, particularly with a coin that originally came from that same dealer (and, I don't think a dealer can remember every single coin, but they should know how to "read" their own photos if they get their own photos shown to them), then I think the dealer DID act poorly in this endeavor. I would welcome the dealer to come onboard and post his side, but I won't hold my breath for that.
I do also agree with how Mitch (Wondercoin) had said he would handle a verbal agreement......get one of the parties to send email confirming the agreement, as discussed, and to acknowledge the same. I do that even with BST transactions already and it can seem nitpicky at times, but it can sure cut down on "misunderstandings".
To get back to my original point, I know everyone has an opinion and that some certainly like to share those opinions, but when I see the same poster, over and over, being negative (to any degree), I just shake my head and wonder why burr is up their butt, or what relationship exists but isn't mentioned........ (I feel the same way when a consumer/collector does the same thing to dealers.....I don't like it either way)
Edited to properly attritbute Mitch as the person who stated how he gets the written confirmation for verbal agreements.
<< <i>If I were a dealer, there is no way I'd make a sight unseen offer on a coin without remembering it clearly and right of inspection. >>
It appears that Legend does: "SORRY WE DO NOT BUY COINS SIGHTUNSEEN (UNLESS THEY ARE CAC STICKERED)" >>
CAC stickered is not exactly sight unseen - Laura has known JA for a very long time and if a dog walks in the door she knows how to get it off the market with no loss to herself. >>
I agree and have no issue with that. I personally would not want to be in business buying coins sight unseen. Coins can change, and I have seen on multiple occasion that my memory of coins is far from perfect.
"I do also agree with how Andy had said he would handle a verbal agreement......get one of the parties to send email confirming the agreement, as discussed, and to acknowledge the same."
Great idea Andy!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
No, Bochiman, I have never done any business with DV. I met one of the principals once but dont know if he's even still with the firm. As far as defending dealers goes, this chatroom is quick to jump down their throats and many times it's unwarranted. Not saying that's the case here as I'm still gathering info. Sorry if that offends you, but in my opinion gathering ALL the pertinent information and examining both sides of the issue before coming to a conclusion is the best route.
And upon rereading all my posts in this thread, I'm having trouble seeing all the negativity or poke poke poking that you are referring to...
<< <i>"I do also agree with how Andy had said he would handle a verbal agreement......get one of the parties to send email confirming the agreement, as discussed, and to acknowledge the same."
Great idea Andy!
Wondercoin >>
Sorry Mitch. I misattributed that. It was you who stated it. I still agree with it and think it is the right way to do things.
These were the guys that used to have the full back cover of the coinnewspapers and magazines 25-30 years ago if I remember right. They always had fun ads to look at.
Comments
<< <i> He had PLENTY of room to profit, too.
I, personally, would not pay $6,500 for a coin that I hoped to retail at $7,000. Not if I wanted to stay in business for long. Looks like he wanted to do you a favor and then when he got the coin in hand it wasn't as nice as the image so he split the diff.
You say it's been in Heritage since then - what was the price realized? I would imagine they took a loss. Instead of focusing on the $350 you say you are out, why not focus on the money they actually saved you with their revised offer? You'll be happier that way. >>
Thanks, for the input. I'm not sure what it hammered for at HA but I've seen it offered on other sites for almost 9K. I'll never agree with what he did but I've put it behind me. He should have been HONEST with me.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
1) Coin was sold by DVRC
2) WalkerFan presented the coin DVRC for buy-back, and used their imagery!
3) DVRC made offer to buy the coin at said price (we don't know if the stated at minimum, or might be less, we don't know if it was a firm offer)
4) WalkerFan shipped coin to DVRC
5) DVRC took possession of coin, and offered less than original offer (i view this as a power play, the ball is in their court)
6) WalkerFan accepted 2nd offer
7) WalkerFan was upset, posted on forum...
8) Monday morning quarterbacks decided to play the game.
I have done several deals that involved the trust of out of town dealers. The trusted my to describe the items, and ship them. I trusted them that I would accept at minimum the agreed upon price, or more depending on the in-hand inspection. If I feel like the dealer may just be chipping away a few $$$'s because they can, I will have the items returned, and chose not to repeat business with these dealers.
I detest the games played by some individuals.
<< <i>I believe the issue is that a dealer once he has taken possession of a coin, attempts to chip away enough off the agreed upon price so that the seller will suck it up, and not ask for the coin to be returned. If they had wanted another $500 dollars off, the seller may have asked for the coin to be returned, but $350 might not have been worth the hassle. This dance is done everyday in Car Lots across the country, and even glorified on TV "Pawn Stars", "American Pickers". Dropping the price an extra 5% may seem like small beans, but when transactions are done daily this can add up to thousands of dollars over a year.
1) Coin was sold by DVRC
2) WalkerFan presented the coin DVRC for buy-back, and used their imagery!
3) DVRC made offer to buy the coin at said price (we don't know if the stated at minimum, or might be less, we don't know if it was a firm offer)
4) WalkerFan shipped coin to DVRC
5) DVRC took possession of coin, and offered less than original offer (i view this as a power play, the ball is in their court)
6) WalkerFan accepted 2nd offer
7) WalkerFan was upset, posted on forum...
8) Monday morning quarterbacks decided to play the game.
I have done several deals that involved the trust of out of town dealers. The trusted my to describe the items, and ship them. I trusted them that I would accept at minimum the agreed upon price, or more depending on the in-hand inspection. If I feel like the dealer may just be chipping away a few $$$'s because they can, I will have the items returned, and chose not to repeat business with these dealers.
I detest the games played by some individuals. >>
THANK YOU---you are CORRECT
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
<< <i>If it went down exactly like WF said, knocking off another $350 after an agreed upon price is not cool. Similarly, if WF bought the coin for $7000 and when the coin arrived said that he would keep it for $6650, that would have been similarly unethical. >>
this is the power of possession... once coin is in hand they feel they have the power to chip away at the sticker price, and they expect the other party to see it not worth the hassle.
<< <i>
<< <i>If it went down exactly like WF said, knocking off another $350 after an agreed upon price is not cool. Similarly, if WF bought the coin for $7000 and when the coin arrived said that he would keep it for $6650, that would have been similarly unethical. >>
this is the power of possession... once coin is in hand they feel they have the power to chip away at the sticker price, and they expect the other party to see it not worth the hassle. >>
I have never been akin to such a transaction. If I do not like the coin at the price, I usually do not buy it in the first place. If it comes to me on approval and I think it is overpriced for what it is, I send it back. Similarly, if I sent a coin to someone else and they do not like it at the agreed upon price, they return it. No harm, no foul.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
This logic couldn't have been applied in this scenario?
peacockcoins
2) I'd like to know the date of the coin
3) as far as Monday morning quarterbacking goes - it comes with the territory. If you're gonna post a rant, people are gonna ask questions. Deal with it or don't post it in the first place.
I bought a coin at a similar price point to WF's coin, and a couple years later, was looking to sell it. I asked the dealer who sold it to me if he would purchase it as he generally likes to buy back coins, and he said to return it to him for an offer. I do not remember the exact number but it was close to half of what I had paid for it. (I was hoping for significantly more.) I thought it was a crappy offer and a crappy way to handle it. I politely told him to return the coin, and only them did he move significantly on his offer. I do not care to play the hostage-ransom game and having done so, I will not do business with that dealer in the future.
Edited to clarify the story
<< <i>WalkerFan - Three questions. First, are you certain that DV made a firm offer of $6500 (net to you) for the coin? Second, how long did it take you to accept the offer? Three, how did DV explain/justify the lower offer of 6150? >>
YES--he absolutely made a firm offer of 6500 NET. He said the only way that it wouldn't go down was if there was something wrong with the coin that was not apparent in the images (scratches, spots) and there was NOTHING--I fully disclosed EVERYTHING about this coin to him. He knew full well that there wasn't anything wrong with it, as it was HIS coin to begin with!! His wife also reassured me (over the phone, as I spoke to them BOTH several times) and she told me to 'trust them' and that it was 'just a formality' and that I would get the $$$. she had sent me images of the coin and had also remembered it. He claimed that he didn't remember anything about the coin (total amnesia, I guess), which I find hard to believe---- but whatever. Even still, I believed and trusted him and the images were VERY revealing.
I accepted the offer and sent the coin IMMEDIATELY---he had it in his possession within 7 days.
He completely changed his story about offering me 6500. He claimed that he did not promise me 6500 (another lie). He said that NOW that he's seen it---he simply didn't feel it was worth that much!! He gave me some BS about the market changing, which it HAD NOT, as I probably know more about market trends than he does. Besides, that would've been completely IRRELEVANT, anyway, b/c that should've been taken into consideration, while he'd been making me the offer in the first place!! His story kept changing---It was all a lot of BS to try to get a bigger piece of the pie and get more money out of me. It was VERY dishonest on his part.
I am getting mad all over again.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
<< <i>1) it would be helpful if the OP answered Andy's questions
2) I'd like to know the date of the coin
3) as far as Monday morning quarterbacking goes - it comes with the territory. If you're gonna post a rant, people are gonna ask questions. Deal with it or don't post it in the first place. >>
I will answer any and all questions, as I have NOTHING to hide. Coin was a 19-S---I think that I answered Andy's other questions.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
<< <i>If I don't like the offer I walk away, regardless.
This logic couldn't have been applied in this scenario? >>
No--b/c I had committed to buy another coin and needed the cash soon. I don't dishonor deals.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
<< <i>Come to think of it, I do have one similar scenario to WF's. I am not going to mention the dealer, but it is one who is generally well-liked in the numismatic community, on the forum, and I like him and his associates personally.
I bought a coin at a similar price point to WF's coin, and a couple years later, was looking to sell it. I asked the dealer if he would purchase it as he generally likes to buy back coins, and he said to return it to him for an offer. I do not remember the exact number but it was close to half of what I had paid for it. (I was hoping for significantly more.) I politely told him to ship back. I thought it was a crappy offer and a crappy way to handle it. I politely told him to return the coin, and only them did he move significantly on his offer. I do not care to play the hostage-ransom game and having done so, I will not do business with that dealer in the future. >>
This is part of game I've noticed since I retired as a dealer. Many dealers pay more for coins they buy from other dealers and offer less, sometimes FAR LESS, to the public for the same items. I have noticed this when I have tried to sell coins with whom I did business when I was active.
I sold some coins (duplicates knocked out by up grades) to a local dealer who paid my asking prices the first time. I left him room, and he had all the coins sold within a week. On the next batch, however, he made low ball offers, which was a mistake his part. If he had worked with me better, I would have continued to have given him the "first shot." As it was he now gets in line with the others.
You did. And where that leaves us is, unfortunately, nowhere. We'll never know whose memory is faulty, who misunderstood what, who misspoke, or who had less than pure intentions. All we get is a cheap lesson. Don't count your chickens before they hatch, and don't commit to spend the proceeds of a sale until you're 100% sure that you will get paid.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I think that I answered Andy's other questions.
You did... Don't count your chickens before they hatch, and don't commit to spend the proceeds of a sale until you're 100% sure that you will get paid. >>
I think that this is the important lesson. When you are in need of cash, you are not in the optimal position to get the most for your coin.
<< <i>I think that I answered Andy's other questions.
You did. And where that leaves us is, unfortunately, nowhere. We'll never know whose memory is faulty, who misunderstood what, who misspoke, or who had less than pure intentions. All we get is a cheap lesson. Don't count your chickens before they hatch, and don't commit to spend the proceeds of a sale until you're 100% sure that you will get paid. >>
That's for sure. I have done business with other dealers this way, MANY times in the past, so I didn't think that I'd have a problem with a long standing firm such as this one. I was wrong and I was duped and I am now reluctant to do this kind of business, in the future, b/c of this incident. I think the main lesson here is to never commit to buy another coin before you have the money, in hand, b/c then if someone decides to cheat you, at least you have some options.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
<< <i>I have a suspicion it's the one listed by David Lawrence on eBay. >>
correct
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
<< <i>The dealer in this case didn't honor his agreement, its that simple. Walkerfan, I'm in your corner here. >>
Thank you.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Well ... yes and no.
I get calls nearly every day from collectors or dealers offering to sell me something. When we come to terms on the phone that collector or dealer CAN "count his or her chickens" just as they could count them from a "verbal" from you Andy.
BUT, repeat BUT I ask that collector or dealer to memorialize our verbal agreement with an immediate email or "direct" or "PM" (or I tell them that I will send over my written confirmation ASAP) so nothing is left for misinterpretation a week or two later. A simple email confirmation would have no one guessing here as to who had impure motives in "Walkerfan's" story.
The real cheap lesson .... just confirm your verbals with a prompt follow up written confirmation and virtually all confusion will likely be removed from the deal. Now if you deal with a "deadbeat" on either side of the deal ... no written confirmation is going to change that.
Just my 2 cents
Wondercoin
Good advice. Then again, in WalkerFan's case, the e-mail would have read something like "Sending coin at the agreed price of 6500, subject to inspection". And the same course of events would likely have ensued.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
In other words ... $6,500 sight-seen. In such a case, the buyer can pay $6,500, pass entirely on the deal or make a counter-offer. I suspect this would be the very position of DVRC.
I suspect the OP's position is the deal was not subject to any conditions whatsoever ... a "done deal" (RK)
Of course, the writing could have easily stated if the purchase was sight-seen or sight-unseen - no?
Wondercoin
P.S. Edited to add, I suppose one could assert the right to inspection comes along with a covenant of good faith and fair dealing in some states.
Just my 2 cents.
<< <i>"Sending coin at the agreed price of 6500, subject to inspection".
In other words ... $6,500 sight-seen. In such a case, the buyer can pay $6,500, pass entirely on the deal or make a counter-offer. I suspect this would be the very position of DVRC.
I suspect the OP's position is the deal was not subject to any conditions whatsoever ... a "done deal" (RK)
Of course, the writing could have easily stated if the purchase was sight-seen or sight-unseen - no?
Wondercoin
P.S. Edited to add, I suppose one could assert the right to inspection comes along with a covenant of good faith and fair dealing in some states.
Just my 2 cents. >>
I think the fact that the dealer sold the coin to WF negates the automatic sight-seen proviso as the dealer has already seen the coin and presumably knows it. In this case, if the dealer requires the sight-seen condition to complete the deal, he should clearly state so, and based on the information provided here, he did not do so.
Nice reference to RK
YES--he absolutely made a firm offer of 6500 NET. He said the only way that it wouldn't go down was if there was something wrong with the coin that was not apparent in the images (scratches, spots) and there was NOTHING--I fully disclosed EVERYTHING about this coin to him. He knew full well that there wasn't anything wrong with it, as it was HIS coin to begin with!! His wife also reassured me (over the phone, as I spoke to them BOTH several times) and she told me to 'trust them' and that it was 'just a formality' and that I would get the $$$. she had sent me images of the coin and had also remembered it. He claimed that he didn't remember anything about the coin (total amnesia, I guess), which I find hard to believe---- but whatever.
So Rich said he didn't remember it and he wanted the right of inspection. Clear enough. As for Rich's wife's assurances - assuming they were as related by WF - it's messy, but Rich's request for inspection didn't go away.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Thanks.
Andy introduced the "subject to inspection" condition (and I see for good reason) and hence my comment.
But, with respect to your comment RYK ... if I sold a "70" graded PCGS silver eagle a few years back and the coin was offered to me years later I would request the sight-seen purchase (or bid accordingly for a sight-unseen purchase). The coin could have easily "changed" during that time period for a variety of reasons including the improper storage of the owner during his time of ownership. Of course, this is rarely a concern for circulated "dirty gold" coins.
Memorialize the best you can and most of the confusion (admittedly not all) goes away.
Wondercoin
Lance.
Most dealers will, at a price.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>If I were a dealer, there is no way I'd make a sight unseen offer on a coin without remembering it clearly and right of inspection.
Most dealers will, at a price. >>
I have sent images to Robert Hughes, Mark Feld and the list goes on and on of dealers and coins that they have never held in their hand. They have ALL quoted me a fair price and it was a done deal and I sent them the coins----a SEAMLESS transaction with NO problems. This Rich guy has had the opportunity to see and OWN the coin and he decides to lie to me and betray my trust for 350 bucks---I hope it was worth it to him---plain and simple. Because he and I are DONE, permanently, and I am a STRONG buyer of Walkers and MY reputation speaks for itself. TRUST means EVERYTHING in business. Thank you to everyone for their good & honest insight.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
<< <i>
<< <i>If I were a dealer, there is no way I'd make a sight unseen offer on a coin without remembering it clearly and right of inspection.
Most dealers will, at a price. >>
I have sent images to Robert Hughes, Mark Feld and the list goes on and on of coins that they have never held in their hand. They have ALL quoted me a fair price and it was a done deal and I sent them the coins----a SEAMLESS transaction with NO problems. >>
That is not a business model i would care to participate in - unless said coins were just generics and not a $7k scarcity.
So, in the real world ...
1. Having a right to inspection (or conditions) may not be all that important all of the time especially on coins that are not rarities or ultra rarities or for many modern bullion type coins (or where you want to try to do a ton of business and not be seen as too tough to deal with); and most importantly ....
2. Just try to deal with trading partners you like and/or trust wherever possible. If this happens, I believe it will be a rare event when things "blow up" over a 5% or so disagreement.
Wondercoin
<< <i>If I were a dealer, there is no way I'd make a sight unseen offer on a coin without remembering it clearly and right of inspection. >>
It appears that Legend does: "SORRY WE DO NOT BUY COINS SIGHTUNSEEN (UNLESS THEY ARE CAC STICKERED)"
I have to disagree. It was specifically stated that he did NOT remember the coin and DID want to inspect it again. I do note the lack of a CAC sticker and the OP stated it was 'nothing special'. I can definitely envision a situation where the dealer expected a solid for the grade coin and got a 'nothing special' coin - and adjusted the price 5% to limit his loss.
<< <i>
<< <i>If I were a dealer, there is no way I'd make a sight unseen offer on a coin without remembering it clearly and right of inspection. >>
It appears that Legend does: "SORRY WE DO NOT BUY COINS SIGHTUNSEEN (UNLESS THEY ARE CAC STICKERED)" >>
CAC stickered is not exactly sight unseen - Laura has known JA for a very long time and if a dog walks in the door she knows how to get it off the market with no loss to herself.
<< <i>I think the fact that the dealer sold the coin to WF negates the automatic sight-seen proviso as the dealer has already seen the coin and presumably knows it. In this case, if the dealer requires the sight-seen condition to complete the deal, he should clearly state so, and based on the information provided here, he did not do so.
I have to disagree. It was specifically stated that he did NOT remember the coin and DID want to inspect it again. I do note the lack of a CAC sticker and the OP stated it was 'nothing special'. I can definitely envision a situation where the dealer expected a solid for the grade coin and got a 'nothing special' coin - and adjusted the price 5% to limit his loss. >>
I missed that nugget. As I said, if the dealer said that the price was contingent on his reinspection of the coin, then all bets are off. It sounds like WF did not exactly receive that message, and the devil is in the communication details that we are not privvy to.
I am all about getting all the info and not just jumping on dealers. That said, a few threads, particularly of late, you have just poked and poked at whoever the OP of the thread was, in reference to any issue with a dealer.
In this case, I wonder.....do you have a personal, or even professional, relationship with the dealer in question? You sure are nitpicking and tossing your two-bits in quite a bit against the OP (as I read it) on this issue.
As has already been said......IF things went down as written, particularly with a coin that originally came from that same dealer (and, I don't think a dealer can remember every single coin, but they should know how to "read" their own photos if they get their own photos shown to them), then I think the dealer DID act poorly in this endeavor.
I would welcome the dealer to come onboard and post his side, but I won't hold my breath for that.
I do also agree with how Mitch (Wondercoin) had said he would handle a verbal agreement......get one of the parties to send email confirming the agreement, as discussed, and to acknowledge the same. I do that even with BST transactions already and it can seem nitpicky at times, but it can sure cut down on "misunderstandings".
To get back to my original point, I know everyone has an opinion and that some certainly like to share those opinions, but when I see the same poster, over and over, being negative (to any degree), I just shake my head and wonder why burr is up their butt, or what relationship exists but isn't mentioned........
(I feel the same way when a consumer/collector does the same thing to dealers.....I don't like it either way)
Edited to properly attritbute Mitch as the person who stated how he gets the written confirmation for verbal agreements.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If I were a dealer, there is no way I'd make a sight unseen offer on a coin without remembering it clearly and right of inspection. >>
It appears that Legend does: "SORRY WE DO NOT BUY COINS SIGHTUNSEEN (UNLESS THEY ARE CAC STICKERED)" >>
CAC stickered is not exactly sight unseen - Laura has known JA for a very long time and if a dog walks in the door she knows how to get it off the market with no loss to herself. >>
I agree and have no issue with that. I personally would not want to be in business buying coins sight unseen. Coins can change, and I have seen on multiple occasion that my memory of coins is far from perfect.
Great idea Andy!
Wondercoin
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
And upon rereading all my posts in this thread, I'm having trouble seeing all the negativity or poke poke poking that you are referring to...
<< <i>"I do also agree with how Andy had said he would handle a verbal agreement......get one of the parties to send email confirming the agreement, as discussed, and to acknowledge the same."
Great idea Andy!
Wondercoin >>
Sorry Mitch. I misattributed that. It was you who stated it.
I still agree with it and think it is the right way to do things.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Just having fun with it! Thanks.
Wondercoin
Does this thread set the record for longest time after inception to reach 100?
Communication is the key to a successful transaction experience. That's what I learned from reading the last day or two of posts here.