What was it like before TPGs?

Leiana

I have read that grading services started up in 1969 (ANACS) 1986 (PCGS) and 1987 (NGC). That's before my time.

I have heard horror stories that the market was full of problem coins and counterfiets and that dealers consistently overgraded everything.

How much of that is really true?

I know there were books about grading, like "A Guide to the Grading of United States Coins" and "Photograde."

And of course there was the Redbook.

Was the Sheldon scale widely used, or did people tend to only use it for large cents?

Thanks!

-Amanda

ricko

There were problems before TPG's and TPG's have added a new set of problems - while helping to eliminate some of the old problems...
It is not a perfect world.... and those who need to depend on an arbiter, well, they now have them. Cheers, RickO

JRocco

It was fine Amanda. It forced you to learn how to grade yourself.
I remember 3 grades of MS.
BU- around MS60
CHBU- around MS63
GEMBU- around MS65

You paid higher for PQ of any of the above and lower for the baggy stuff.

Leiana

<< <i>It was fine Amanda. It forced you to learn how to grade yourself.
I remember 3 grades of MS.
BU- around MS60
CHBU- around MS63
GEMBU- around MS65

You paid higher for PQ of any of the above and lower for the baggy stuff. >>



Yes, that's more along the lines of what I thought it was.

-Amanda

kranky

Indeed, there were plenty of whizzed, cleaned, altered, tooled, and outright counterfeit coins. It's been said that there are more fake 1916-D Mercury dimes than genuine ones. Since there were no independent grading opinions, it wasn't unusual to buy a coin graded Choice BU but be told it was only AU when you went to sell. It was a time when "sliders" were everywhere (AU coins which passed for Unc).

Certainly not every dealer was like that, but many were.

JRocco

It sure has changes though Amanda.
I was at a local show a couple months ago and I was looking at an AU50 bust half that was really overgraded. I said to the dealer in a conversational tone -he was a nice guy- that the coin was a 40 at best and he said to me with a dumfounded look on his face "No, it's a 50-look at the label"

Things have changed...

JRocco

<< <i>Indeed, there were plenty of whizzed, cleaned, altered, tooled, and outright counterfeit coins. It's been said that there are more fake 1916-D Mercury dimes than genuine ones. Since there were no independent grading opinions, it wasn't unusual to buy a coin graded Choice BU but be told it was only AU when you went to sell. It was a time when "sliders" were everywhere (AU coins which passed for Unc).

Certainly not every dealer was like that, but many were. >>




But Kranky, if the coin was an AU coin and you had it in hand and then paid 63 money for it... well..............

Leiana

<< <i>It sure has changes though Amanda.
I was at a local show a couple months ago and I was looking at an AU50 bust half that was really overgraded. I said to the dealer in a conversational tone -he was a nice guy- that the coin was a 40 at best and he said to me with a dumfounded look on his face "No, it's a 50-look at the label"

Things have changed... >>



In that way, I feel the TPGs contributed to a bit of a loss in that there are people who feel they can trust the label rather than learn to grade for themselves.

-Amanda

dragon

<<< I have heard horror stories that the market was full of problem coins and counterfiets and that dealers consistently overgraded everything.

How much of that is really true? >>>



It was not unusual to go to a big show in the 70's and see entire dealer showcases full of whizzed or problem coins, nor was it unusual to see full page dealer ads offering nearly every single coin in their inventory in grades like superb gem or MS69.

AZLARRY

When ever I purchased a coin, in that time, I always carried around a copy of Photo Grade, as did many. Being able to determine if a coin was “messed with” was also important. I remember a lot of shinny old coppers in those days. I bought from dealers that I trusted and had a lot of experience.

stman

<< <i>Since there were no independent grading opinions, it wasn't unusual to buy a coin graded Choice BU but be told it was only AU when you went to sell. It was a time when "sliders" were everywhere (AU coins which passed for Unc). >>



And this has changed?

clw54

Well, I have an 1893 Morgan with an added S on the reverse from around 1970. Got it from a big advertiser in Coin World. Sometimes it's a pocket piece. I hang onto it because I don't want anybody else trying to pass it off as genuine.

I like it better with the grading services.

BlindedByEgo

<< <i>Well, I have an 1893 Morgan with an added S on the reverse from around 1970. Got it from a big advertiser in Coin World. Sometimes it's a pocket piece. I hang onto it because I don't want anybody else trying to pass it off as genuine.

I like it better with the grading services. >>




Me, too - for authentications at least. But blind obedience to printed grades on slabs is one unfortunate side effect.

PerryHall

There were a lot of fake and altered coins being sold---especially gold and key dates
Dealers would undergrade when buying and overgrade when selling.
There were many cleaned, tooled, polished, whizzed, etc problem coins in the market place. Dealers, of course, never mentioned these problems.

xphobe

The Sheldon scale may have been around for awhile, but as a kid collecting in the 60s, I don't remember seeing it used, only G-VG-F-VF-EF-AU-BU.

The first and only time I ever used a TPG was in 75 when I submitted a gold piece to ANA for authentication, not for grading. Back then they didn't encapsulate the coins. I think they would send back a card with a photo of the coin and its description.

But I never found out, because they in effect "BB'd" it - unable to determine authenticity. It was a 1714 Philip V 2 escudo cob, which was sent to me from Saudi Arabia, where I later learned pure gold fakes were cranked out by the boatload. And sure enough, with my keen 20/20 hindsight, I am able to discern what looks to be a seam around the edge

segoja

ANACS didn't start grading coins until 1983 (If I remember correctly) They did autneticate coins.

The other major difference, is that prices didn't vary dramatically between grades like they do today. Yes some variance, but not a ton.

kranky

<< <i>

<< <i>Since there were no independent grading opinions, it wasn't unusual to buy a coin graded Choice BU but be told it was only AU when you went to sell. It was a time when "sliders" were everywhere (AU coins which passed for Unc). >>



And this has changed? >>



stman, of course it happens but nowhere near the frequency it did back then. It was the easiest way for a dealer to buy things for much less than full value. Instead of insulting you by offering $100 for a $500 BU coin, it was more likely for them to say the coin was AU, and that $100 offer looked pretty fair.

mirabela

It was basically the same as now, the differences all being in the particulars. You know how now, when some dealers want to sell you a slabbed coin it is undergraded and when they want to buy it, it is overgraded? Same deal, but there was no holder to argue about. There were also some good dealers, just like now. Many of them are still around.

There were plenty of good coins, too. It isn't as though all the decent coins that are in slabs now didn't exist then.

Basically, there is a little bit more of a safety net now, but as we all know, only a little.

Rarity

I remember buying several coins from reputable dealers and realized much lower offering when I sold them. Back then, I thought that my coins were graded properly but the dealers, whom I sold the coins to, lowered their grades in order to buy them cheaply. I was disillusioned with the coin market and left in 1985. I didn't actively come back until 1994.

NumisOxide

Amanda heres an old similiar thread that I started last year. Check it out, it has some really good info in it.

Before grading services were established...........................

TwoSides2aCoin

before TPGs it was the same, except you collected coins instead of plastic.

tjkillian

TPG services have really helped the collector. Today someone will say "MS-64, what a gift grade" or "That is a really low-end MS-64". Back in the 1970's they would call a MS-64 coin, AU and offer you AU money. Then they would try to sell you a AU coin claiming it was MS-66. TPG have really leveled the playing field for collectors. Try selling a PCGS coin from the 19th century to a dealer today and he will most likely be intested and not claim it is a significantly lower grade than what is on the label. Then do the same for a raw coin. You will see big difference from many dealers.

Life is still not perfect, but much, much better today.

Tom

stman

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Since there were no independent grading opinions, it wasn't unusual to buy a coin graded Choice BU but be told it was only AU when you went to sell. It was a time when "sliders" were everywhere (AU coins which passed for Unc). >>



And this has changed? >>



stman, of course it happens but nowhere near the frequency it did back then. It was the easiest way for a dealer to buy things for much less than full value. Instead of insulting you by offering $100 for a $500 BU coin, it was more likely for them to say the coin was AU, and that $100 offer looked pretty fair. >>



Kranky, I understand your point. I was really commenting on the part you mentioned about AU coins passed for unc. Yes it happened then, and still happens. What has been added is the grading service gives their blessing. I was around and collecting before certification and I will say that a "slider" then was more of a slider then I see in 58 holders now IMO. I believe authentication has been a big plus. And when the services first started out it was a big plus. I now view certification as big minus. All the same tactics used then, are used now, and sellers use the label for their own benefit. It all comes down to what one will accept, or not.

Rarity

I agree. For a consumer, today is better.

roadrunner

I returned 90% of the coins I ordered via mail order in the 1975-1985 if that gives any clue as to how often stuff was overpriced or overgraded. It was hard to find fair value from any of the major retailers imo. If you wanted things at a fair price you had to attend shows or auctions and know how to grade. Dodging cleaned coins whizzed ones was commonplace. Dipped coins on pre-20th century material was not considered a positive unless it was the coin's original surface. Out of the 2 major retailers of that era, I think I spent a total of $50 with one of them, and $600 with the other.

In the later 1970's NERCG introduced split grades between
60,65,70. Even then, premium coins brought inbetween grade money. There were a lot of dealers using PCGS-like grading systems in the early 1980's. One such system was:

60
60+
60++
60+++
65
65+
65++

NPI took this even a step further in 1982-1986 to assign eye appeal factors of A, B, C to their coins. You could say that the 11 pt MS system was well in effect years before PCGS.

We've improved a lot, but have not eliminated all the risk. You can still lose 50% or more of your money overnight buying overgraded, overpriced, top tiered slabs. In a severe down market someday, overgraded slabs will be trading for next grade down.

roadrunner

Leiana

Thanks for all the responses!

-Amanda

mercurynut

The TPG services are why I stayed in the hobby. I got tired of argueing with dealers about cleaned coins that were being passed off as origional BU or MS.

MacCrimmon

<< <i>If you wanted things at a fair price you had to attend shows or auctions and know how to grade. >>




Now, as then, probably only 10% of the collectors and 10% of the dealers can "swim" on their own. The only difference today with the TPGs is that if you can't "swim", you'll take just a little longer to drown.

Amanda, save up for a week-long trip to the ANA seminars on grading during the summer.....it will be the best money you spend on this hobby. BTW, you do seem to have a keen eye with the images, but you'll need to view literally tens of thousands of the real thing to swim safely.

Good luck, and have fun.

291fifth

Learn to grade. Try finding a copy of the Brown & Dunn Grading book, 4th Ed., 1964, or an early edition of the ANA Grading Standards book.

Insist on conservative grading. If the coin fails to meet minimum standards, walk away.

orie

Before TPG toned coins sold at a 40% discount. This ain't no joke.

JRocco

Reading this thread you could come away thinking that before TPG's there were no "real" coins in the market, but once they opened their doors----poof---- all these wonderful slabbed coins of today kinda morphed into existence.

Salami.....

There were a lot of collectors before the TPG's that paid 63 money for 63 coins and 58 money for 58 coins regularly.

I think there was, and still is a place for TPG's, but they have become the "pair of crutches" for so many collectors....

Personally- the best place for TPG's is for authentication purposes, as for grading- I still grade myself, and pay for what I see in a coin.

Myqqy

I was looking at an AU50 bust half that was really overgraded. I said to the dealer in a conversational tone -he was a nice guy- that the coin was a 40 at best and he said to me with a dumfounded look on his face "No, it's a 50-look at the label"

Can't you read?

dorkkarl

before tpgs, you could actually AFFORD this hobby & then some. those days are over

the horror before tpgs is HIGHLY exaggerated. somehow, someway most all of us survived just fine

i am certain of 1 thing - the cost of corruption is MUCH MUCH higher in coins now then at any time in the past that i remember.

K S

nankraut

Leiana, I'll answer your question with four words:

It was more fun.

ziggy29

<< <i>That's before my time. >>

I started collecting as a wee lad around 1972, and some of these changes to the industry were just starting to take hold.


<< <i>I have heard horror stories that the market was full of problem coins and counterfiets and that dealers consistently overgraded everything. >>

Some dealers did. Some dealers didn't. Just like today. The difference was that it was easier for shadier dealers to pass off cleaned, whizzed and counterfeit pieces, as well as overgraded stuff.

But then, just like now, there were good guys and not-so-good guys.

TPGs have ameliorated many of the problems with unscrupulous dealers in decades past, but they have also introduced new problems. On balance, is collecting better now than before? I'd say "yes" for the less experienced collector and "no" for the intermediate/advanced collector.


<< <i>I know there were books about grading, like "A Guide to the Grading of United States Coins" and "Photograde." >>

Before Photograde, the primary reference was Brown and Dunn. Then came Photograde by Jim Ruddy, and then the ANA grading guide.


<< <i>And of course there was the Redbook. >>

True. Though the Red Book never really gave much detail to grading. It usually had one or two sentences describing the characteristics of a given grade. (For example, for a Fine coin it might say "LIBERTY should be fully visible but may be weak" or some such.)


<< <i>Was the Sheldon scale widely used, or did people tend to only use it for large cents? >>

The Sheldon scale started to be used more and more in the 1970s. Initially when it was used, there was only 60, 65 and 70 for MS grades. A lot of what are 63s and 64s today would have been 65 then. (The Paramount encapsulation of the old Redfield hoard is a good example of this.) These were "Uncirculated", "Choice Uncirculated" and "Gem (or Perfect) Uncirculated" adjectivally.

Before too long, the market (and ANA standards) recognized two more MS grades -- MS-63 ("Select" uncirculated) and MS-67 ("Gem" uncirculated).

And of course, after that, ALL the numbers in the 60-70 range were used and the adjectives dropped (or not used) from the previously existing grades. Plus AU-53 and AU-58 were added; these were not in the original Sheldon standards.

BillJones

Back in the 1960s you could go into a coin shop with $100 to $120 and come home with a small BOX of 6 to 10 pieces that were really interesting. I'd get stuff like an 1832 dime in AU, semi-key date Indian cents in VF and various 19th century type coins EF. I got interested in gold when I was in high school and eventually put together the eight piece type set plus the Type I and Type II gold dollars for no more than $75 per coin, which was full retail at that time. Everything was in Mint State and it ranged from MS-61 to what became MS-65 when I had them graded. My dream then was to get a $3 gold coin, but that did not really come until later. A BU $3 gold coin cost $300, and that was out of my price range as kid collector. I always bought from well-know dealers, which met I paid a little more, BUT the coins were nice and they were GENUINE.

When I got my first job out of college in 1971, I started to pay serious money for coins (up $1,000 each). Then I purchased all of the reference books I could, and I really started to look at coins more closely. When my company transferred me to northen New Jersey, I started to attend the major New York City shows. You had to live by your wits, but if you studied the subject and dealt with the better dealers, there were usually no problems.

The trouble came with the first big coin booms came along in the late 1970s. A bunch of people who were not collectors and who were only looking to make money jumped in, and a bunch of them that BURNED badly. There were a lot of crooked dealers who looked slickand they took those folks for a ride. That set the stage for third party grading, and the TPG industry has been growing ever since.

Derek2100

It was fun and if you had knowledge you were King - and made lots of money.

On the other hand if you did not know what you were doing - well u got ripped.

Catch22

Way back when, you could walk into a coin shop and actually carry on a conversation as the dealer dipped his toned coins in jewel luster. Anything above an AU-53 was labeled as BU or Ch-BU after a good dipping. The general rule of thumb for selling to a dealer was about half of Redbook and one grade lower than the coin actually was. When buying from a dealer, the going rate was Redbook and one grade higher than the coin actually was.

tpfnar

Twas a scary time. Collectors had to grade using only candle light

PerryHall

Buying coins mail order during the pre slabbing days was a real adventure. If you want to experience what it was like, buy a few raw coins from some of the Coin World dealers with the multiple full page ads.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>before TPGs it was the same, except you collected coins instead of plastic. >>



Lots of my plastic has nice coins in it!!

dorkkarl

that's too bad

you can remedy the problem easily!

K S

CaptHenway

ANACS began authenticating coins around 1972. We added grading in February of 1979.

When I started there in 1978 there were tons of fake gold dollars, $2-1/2 Libs and Indians, $3's, $5 Indians, $10 Indians and $20 Saints out there, plus added mint mark 1909-S Indians, 1909-SVDB's, 1914-D's, 1916-D dimes. 1889-CC dollars, 1893-S dollars and removed mint mark 1922 cents and 1895 dollars. There are far fewer of these out there today, just because it is so much harder to sell a fake AND MAKE IT STICK!

Tom D.

dorkkarl

before tpg$, coins were MUCH MUCH more affordable

K S

PerryHall

<< <i>before tpg$, coins were MUCH MUCH more affordable

K S >>



So was gas, bread, houses, cars, etc. What's your point? Slabs have been around for 20 years and we've had a lot of inflation since then. The cost of everything has gone up.

Bear

Before TPGs, the collector was raped. Sice TPGs,

we have just been moderately molested.

ziggy29

<< <i>So was gas, bread, houses, cars, etc. What's your point? Slabs have been around for 20 years and we've had a lot of inflation since then. The cost of everything has gone up. >>

Sure -- but nowhere near the cost of nicer coins.

keets

I have heard horror stories that the market was full of problem coins and counterfiets and that dealers consistently overgraded everything.
How much of that is really true?

all of the above was true "then" as it's true "now" though there's a safeguard in place. i find it rather amusing that some actually think it was more important to know how to grade "then" than it is "now" and that the scammers were more prevelant "then" than they are "now" when actually little has changed. as a matter of fact, some have actually been aided by TPG's of a, how shall i say this, less than reputable nature and some of the crooks from the "old days" are still in operation today. fortunately, some great dealers have survived through the years and more good guys than bad guys have joined the ranks.

slabbed coins and the way things operate today certainly offer everyone more safely as a general rule, but as in all human endeavors of any value, knowledge is the key. i can still hear the droning voice of my beloved father telling me "Noone can ever take away what you know." he was as right when i was a child as he is today.

majorbigtime

Before the TPGs, the coin was "gem" if you were buying, a "dog" if you were selling! The TPGs helped level the playing field somewhat.

Now, if they would only issue a clear guaranty of grade and authenticity.

dorkkarl

<< <i><< before tpg$, coins were MUCH MUCH more affordable

K S >>

So was gas, bread, houses, cars, etc. What's your point? Slabs have been around for 20 years and we've had a lot of inflation since then. The cost of everything has gone up. >>

dude, GET - REAL.

the cost of mundane things has gone up at the pace of inflation, ie IS INFLATION. the absurd price of today's coins FAAAAAAAAR exceeds that of inflation. it's not even close, there's no comparison!

THAT IS . . . . . . .. . . THE POINT

i remember when the world's most expensive coin was about $100,000, today its 8 MILLION? does YOUR food now cost you EIGHTY TIMES what it did 30 years ago??? i want whatever the he11 it is your eating!!!

20 years ago, what was the most expensive coin, brasher doubloon at around maybe 700K? again, where is the inflation you see that's gone up by a factor of TWELVE in just 20 years? it ain't happening!

the single factor that has driven up the price of coins to absurd heights comes down to 1 main thing: hyped up PLA$TIC. better keep working on your sets of unc jeffy nickels, 'cuz most of you sure as he11 can't afford to complete a set of even unc merc dimes at today's ridiculous price$. for that matter, it won't be long before pla$tic madness runs the cost of even jeffy's out of reach.

K S

dorkkarl

<< <i>Before the TPGs, the coin was "gem" if you were buying, a "dog" if you were selling! >>

that ridiculous reasoning always cracks me up. you tried to sell a slabed coin lately? nothing has change, NOTHING! when you are buying, the coin in the pla$tic is always "choice", "nice for the grade", "pq", or to use david-lawrence reasoining, it has FIVE STARS!!! but when YOU are selling, naturally, the coin is "low end", "in the wrong holder", or of course, just plain "overgraded".

that excuse for pla$tic madne$$ just does'nt cut it anymore (actually it never did). & gee, you know what? since you have pla$tic to thakn for the enormous jumps some coins take for a single point in grade, it is now EASIER for coin dealers to pull that crap of offering you "10 back of bid", because w/ such huge jumps, there's alot more wiggle room to make low-ball offers

K S

edit - post got cut off