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Have the big 2 TPGs "sold out" ?

BarryBarry Posts: 10,100 ✭✭✭
Couple of interesting things in the 9/11 Coin World that arrived today.

1. An article about NGC petitioning the US Patent Office to cancel CU's registration of the term First Strike, claiming it is a generic term and has damaged NGC's business.

The whole First Strike thing is a real joke, created to generate $$'s, especially oafter the Mint's recent statement.

2. A Letter to the Editor crtcicizing NGC for slabbing and lebelling corroded coins as "shipwreck effect." What's next? "Drillbit effect" for holed coins and "Brillo effect" for scrubbed coins?

Slabbing these corroded coins just increased the pool of coins to be graded (and regraded.)

Comments

  • MacCrimmonMacCrimmon Posts: 7,058 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Couple of interesting things in the 9/11 Coin World that arrived today.

    1. An article about NGC petitioning the US Patent Office to cancel CU's registration of the term First Strike, claiming it is a generic term and has damaged NGC's business.

    The whole First Strike thing is a real joke, created to generate $$'s, especially oafter the Mint's recent statement.

    2. A Letter to the Editor crtcicizing NGC for slabbing and lebelling corroded coins as "shipwreck effect." What's next? "Drillbit effect" for holed coins and "Brillo effect" for scrubbed coins?

    Slabbing these corroded coins just increased the pool of coins to be graded (and regraded.) >>




    How about MOCeffect?
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭
    "Have the big 2 TPGs "sold out" ?"

    No, they have always been in the coin business to make money.
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭
    Rather than petitioning the patent office, NGC should instead expose First Strike for what it is. The recent press release from the Mint would help there.
  • IGWTIGWT Posts: 4,975
    1. An article about NGC petitioning the US Patent Office to cancel CU's registration of the term First Strike, claiming it is a generic term and has damaged NGC's business.

    Quite a few people have pooh-poohed complaints against the "First Strike" designation by arguing that it doesn't bring any premium in the marketplace. That argument fails to account for the possibility that the designation results in a higher volume of sales. Thanks to research by Notwilight, we also see that the argument is just plain false: a First Strike PR70 DCAM sold for $3,050 while a non-First Strike PR70 DCAM sits unpurchased with a BIN at $2,000. And, of course, submitters who know how to make money willingly continue to pay extra for the "First Strike" designation. Now we have the TPGs lawyering up to fight over the right to use a designation which we all know is Malarkey™. I'd say that it must be quite a profitable scheme.


  • mhammermanmhammerman Posts: 3,769 ✭✭✭
    I want some with the brillo effect to remind me of what I did to coins when I was a kid but I mostly used tooth paste and comet cleanser. Hey...I just thought, I can sell slq's with the "eraser" effect, I put a lot of those back into circulation in my earlier days. Now, if I can only get one of the tpgs to designate it properly!!!
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    image
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • Everything is Gone, there are Sharks in the Water !!! Let the After Market Frenzy Begin !!!
  • IGWTIGWT Posts: 4,975


    << <i>Everything is Gone, there are Sharks in the Water !!! Let the After Market Frenzy Begin !!! >>



    You forgot the attribution for this quote. I'll guess Roy Scheider as Police Chief Martin Brody. image
  • CameonutCameonut Posts: 7,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To quote Michael
    my my my my my my my ( I think that is enough my's)

    NGC amazes me.
    First - to challenge the First Strikes designation when those in the know understand it means nothing. If CU was smart they would sell the rights to NGC for big bucks - avoid the legal BS - and let NGC wear egg on their face in the future.

    Second - shipwreck effect is also a joke. I like brillo effect, drillbit, railroad effect (for coins placed on railroad tracks), dirt effect, and on and on. NGC must really be hurting to conjure up all this crud.

    Can't wait to talk to them at the next major show.

    I sure am glad the few NGC coins I own are 'real coins' and not BS.

    “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson

    My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!

  • IGWTIGWT Posts: 4,975
    I just received CoinWorld and read the article cited by Barry. At least now I know why PCGS removed the definition of "First Strike" from its website (or at least the reason as alleged by NGC). Cameonut -- Your criticism of NGC confuses me. PCGS -- not NGC -- is seeking to obtain proprietary rights to the "First Strike" Nonsense™.
  • pontiacinfpontiacinf Posts: 8,915 ✭✭


    << <i>2. A Letter to the Editor crtcicizing NGC for slabbing and lebelling corroded coins as "shipwreck effect." What's next? "Drillbit effect" for holed coins and "Brillo effect" for scrubbed coins? >>



    please Barry, do not give them any ideas image

    Brillo, thats a good oneimage
    image

    Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
  • As someone who works in the Intellectual Property Business, IMHO, if evidence that the term was widely used before they filed, a re-exam of the filing could knock it out.
  • BECOKABECOKA Posts: 16,961 ✭✭✭
    I know it has been a long time since this thread was started but why would NGC file a complaint like that when they use the term "First Strikes" All the did was add an "s" to get around the legal stuff.
  • JimDepotJimDepot Posts: 958 ✭✭


    << <i>I want some with the brillo effect to remind me of what I did to coins when I was a kid but I mostly used tooth paste and comet cleanser. Hey...I just thought, I can sell slq's with the "eraser" effect, I put a lot of those back into circulation in my earlier days. Now, if I can only get one of the tpgs to designate it properly!!! >>



    30 years ago I cleaned a coin with Brasso.

    My 88 year old mom sent it to me about 5 years ago.

    It still looks shiny.

    OMG am I that old?

    image
    image

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 23,235 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If the TPGs were doing their jobs right (and honestly), they wouldn't need to designate any coin as "First Strike," because the sharpness of the strike could always be noted on the label anyway. Using "First Strike" as a mass marketing ploy does everyone a Dis-service.

    Sorry if this steps on anyone's toes, but it's true.

    Added: But, if that's the game to increase my returns, yeah, I'm gonna play it too.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Quite a few people have pooh-poohed complaints against the "First Strike" designation by arguing that it doesn't bring any premium in the marketplace. That argument fails to account for the possibility that the designation results in a higher volume of sales. Thanks to research by Notwilight, we also see that the argument is just plain false >>

    I haven't seen NoTwilight's research but from my own checks of bay realized auction prices, the designation brings a premium for some coins and doesn't for other coins, notably older common date ASEs. So certainly it sometimes brings a high premium but it seems there are also other factors at play.

    << <i>If the TPGs were doing their jobs right (and honestly), they wouldn't need to designate any coin as "First Strike," because the sharpness of the strike could always be noted on the label anyway. Using "First Strike" as a mass marketing ploy does everyone a Dis-service. >>

    Yes there would be. The "need" is "extra" revenue that would not be obtained by designating good strikes only.
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 23,235 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Designating "First Strike" on the basis of a shipping carton date mark is ridiculous. However, having a professional grader offer an opinion about the quality of the strike by actually looking at the coin - now THAT would be a service, and the coin might then be worth a premium!
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • Have the big 2 TPGs sold out ? Would that be the right term?
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,680 ✭✭✭✭✭
    IMO, NGC should look in the mirror and shut up about this. I am far more concerned with the baked blue PF IHCs being slabbed as "market acceptable" -- and their pointedly ignoring my polite but to the point inquiries about this -- than anything about this first strike business.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>IMO, NGC should look in the mirror and shut up about this. I am far more concerned with the baked blue PF IHCs being slabbed as "market acceptable" -- and their pointedly ignoring my polite but to the point inquiries about this -- than anything about this first strike business. >>

    NGC isn't the only TPG stretching what "market acceptable" means....
  • RegistryCoinRegistryCoin Posts: 5,117 ✭✭✭✭
    I think that "First Strike" was the brain child of a PCGS employee, and probably was not widely used previous to their use.
    I think that Church & Dwight would have a little problem with "The Brillo Effect" unless they were paid for the use of their product name.
    And I think A. A. Milne would remind us that it is "poo-poo'd" rather than "pooh-poohed".
    Seriously, I think that NGC should follow their "brand" of standards as they see fit. Remember, this is the TPG that refused to put the grade of 70 on the coins they graded for some time due to their belief that the "perfect grade" was unattainable. Obviously, things change over time.
  • OneCentOneCent Posts: 3,561


    << <i> Remember, this is the TPG that refused to put the grade of 70 on the coins they graded for some time due to their belief that the "perfect grade" was unattainable. >>



    Frankly, I think the logic behind the original decision was 100% correct. How can there be a "perfect coin" when, in fact, there will always be someone that sees an imperfection? MS70 is pure marketing device of which NGC had to adopt in order to remain viable in the marketplace.

    Sorry to have digressed...


    image
    imageimage
    Collector of Early 20th Century U.S. Coinage.
    ANA Member R-3147111
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,680 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Zoin's - IMO there's a big difference between trying to stretch the meaning of "market acceptable" -- and I don't care what anyone else says, when I buy a coin, the only issue is whether a coin is market acceptable TO ME -- and knowingly slabbing a coin that has been artificially toned / doctored.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • FatManFatMan Posts: 8,977


    << <i>Have the big 2 TPGs "sold out" ? >>

    YES!

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