OK, my two cents for what it's worth.........................
let's quit pussy-footing around here and acknowledge the facts, the first coin is listed by forum member Pat Braddick, the second is listed by former forum member Greg Margulis. perhaps everyone's afraid of stating as much because they're worried that they might offend someone or put their good standing with one of the two in jeapordy. oh well. i like Braddick and before his bannishment to parts over the horizon i got along OK with GMarguli, but this begs each of us to put the hobby's best interests first and worry about ourselves last. unless of course you sanction this stuff and are actually a hypocrite.
i would wonder if both guys know what they are offering?? do they know how the coins came to change so dramatically?? are they willing to disclose the answers to those questions within this thread?? irony of ironies, i believe it was Braddick who outed the Bear/Anaconda $15k Peace Dollar from the Long Beach Show, the coin pictured below which was soundly scorned. if those facts are accurate, how do you indict someone else and then list such a glaringly suspect coin like his??
just another day at the office, i suspect. i will withhold final judgement and opinion on these guys till we get some additional information. i just hope we don't have to ask too many times or wait too long.
I posted this "blue" proof on the Shellac thread but here it is again for information purposes. It took about an hour to achieve the color using MS 70, a mixture of Deller's Darkener and Blue Ribbon. Heat was used and some very dark napkins to cure the shine and give it a more aged effect. IMO, blues like this are easy to make and I bet 50% or more will make it into good plastic (if they are "cured" over a few days or weeks). The best work isn't easy to detect - I've had a number of respected folks in the field tell me a coin like the one below looks original. I've submitted three to NGC and gotten two slabbed.
As a collector of proof IHCs it makes me sad and angry to see this stuff get into good plastic. My experience has been that the blues are fairly easy to make. I've never been able to make a good toned proof of other colors, but that is only my experience.
I would hate to see the all beautifully toned IHCs get smeared because of the blue plague. I hope people like shylock, cohodk and others continue to expose this fraud. Maybe if the doctors are outed they will stop flooding the market. The Docs are really hurting the hobby by tarring all toned IHCs with this blue AT crap .
hey Pat, you answered the questions as i was asking them, that's fast.
absent the NGC opinion and with the knowledge that perhaps many collectors/dealers and probably PCGS and ANACS find these to be AT'D or at best, questionable, what is your feeling about them?
Braddick, you are right.... to each their own. Obiously, there is a market for all types of coins, whether dipped blast white, artificially enhanced, or color enamaled.
And.... make no mistake about it.... the owner of any coin can do as they please with it. If one owned and wanted to smash a 1913 Liberty nickel with a sledge hammer.... they can legally do so if the owner.... and would then be the owner of the only unique smashed 1913 nickel in the world (hmmm... I wonder how that would sell on eBay). But I am sure they would not be too popular or well thought of in the hobby.
Unfortunaltely, with each coin that is being processed, that is one less that is preserved for the future. (this is assuming the coin does not NEED to be processed to halt corrosion, etc). The original coins are dwindling.
The best work isn't easy to detect - I've had a number of respected folks in the field tell me a coin like the one below looks original. I've submitted three to NGC and gotten two slabbed.
As a collector of proof IHCs it makes me sad and angry to see this stuff get into good plastic.
very disheartening to read a post like this. it seems to be just so much fodder for Carlin's routine about words/terms that are mutually exclusive-----jumbo shrimp, military intelligence and now, good plastic and NGC.
I know many will disagree, but in my opinion, if these are good enough with NGC, and the experts there have decided to continue to grade and holder these Indian cents after all the discussion that has taken place, then it's good enough with me.
But, if YOU know they have been colored up, what does it matter what ngc said?
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
<< <i> Braddick, you are right.... to each their own >>
I disagree. Not every colletor has the knowledge or experience to know if the "blue" they are buying is AT or not. As long as the grading services are slabbing them many people will think they are OK. The market will discount these, the coin docs will make a tidy profit, and the collectors will lose in the long run.
You can't protect every collector, but you can make an effort to ensure that people who buy this crap know what they are getting. The grading services and the sellers of this junk sure aren't providing that information!
<< <i>hey Pat, you answered the questions as i was asking them, that's fast. absent the NGC opinion and with the knowledge that perhaps many collectors/dealers and probably PCGS and ANACS find these to be AT'D or at best, questionable, what is your feeling about them? >>
Keets, I'm not sure what PCGS's opinion is now- but I would suspect they would not holder these. Possibly someone from PCGS can come along and confirm that.
ANACS does still holder these as I own two myself that were holdered via ANACS three weeks ago. I may or I may not sell them down the road.
I personally may have purchased these, before their "outing" for my own collection and not have sold them. Now that NGC, with all the evidence before them, both pro and con, had decided to continue to grade and holder these, I have no problem selling them.
I see many threads of Heritage coins purchased, currated, and then reholdered either with NGC and/or PCGS that are then worth multiples of their original selling price. Whether that is wrong either ethically or morally is up to each individual. On some of the ultra blast white (they look overdipped to me- plain and simple) older classics I personally have a problem with and don't buy them for my collection. Others do make a market in these.
I enjoy the look of these blue Indians though and own three of them for myself- selling others either outright or on consignement. Truly, to each is own. The market generally has a way of sorting all these things out.
thank you, Michael, that brings us to the real point of coin doctoring which is about intent. many will split hairs and say treating a coin with MS70 to achieve this effect is bad while placing a coin in a sulfer laden holder to achieve a similar effect is OK. many will say that if the market accepts something it's OK even though the manner in which it's done is roundly scorned. many will pin the blame on a grading service and exempt the individual.
all are questions we each have to answer, as Braddick said, to our own satisfaction. the real truth of the matter won't be known for a generation or two.
<< <i>hey Pat, you answered the questions as i was asking them, that's fast. absent the NGC opinion and with the knowledge that perhaps many collectors/dealers and probably PCGS and ANACS find these to be AT'D or at best, questionable, what is your feeling about them? >>
Keets, I'm not sure what PCGS's opinion is now- but I would suspect they would not holder these. Possibly someone from PCGS can come along and confirm that.
ANACS does still holder these as I own two myself that were holdered via ANACS three weeks ago. I may or I may not sell them down the road.
I personally may have purchased these, before their "outing" for my own collection and not have sold them. Now that NGC, with all the evidence before them, both pro and con, had decided to continue to grade and holder these, I have no problem selling them.
I see many threads of Heritage coins purchased, currated, and then reholdered either with NGC and/or PCGS that are then worth multiples of their original selling price. Whether that is wrong either ethically or morally is up to each individual. On some of the ultra blast white (they look overdipped to me- plain and simple) older classics I personally have a problem with and don't buy them for my collection. Others do make a market in these.
I enjoy the look of these blue Indians though and own three of them for myself- selling others either outright or on consignement. Truly, to each is own. The market generally has a way of sorting all these things out. >>
Pat: if you're gonna sell them, then I urge you to stand behind them 100%. If a buyer 'becomes educated' and wants a refund, you should give it. If the coin turns, you should buy it back and then take up the issue with NGC. If down the road the coin become market unacceptable and drops in value, you should refund the purchase price. JMHO.
-- "I personally may have purchased these, before their 'outing' for my own collection and not have sold them. Now that NGC, with all the evidence before them, both pro and con, had decided to continue to grade and holder these, I have no problem selling them." --
Since when does a TPG have the power of absolution?
<< <i>-- "I personally may have purchased these, before their 'outing' for my own collection and not have sold them. Now that NGC, with all the evidence before them, both pro and con, had decided to continue to grade and holder these, I have no problem selling them." --
Since when does a TPG have the power of absolution? >>
In good faith, if the seller knows they've been done ("market acceptable" or not), he must disclose and be willing to refund. Period.
<< <i>Pat: if you're gonna sell them, then I urge you to stand behind them 100%. If a buyer 'becomes educated' and wants a refund, you should give it. If the coin turns, you should buy it back and then take up the issue with NGC. If down the road the coin become market unacceptable and drops in value, you should refund the purchase price. JMHO. >>
I would urge a little more than that..... like being honest and upfront in the auction and stating that the coin is AT so that the buyer actually knows what he is buying. Then he can ride the market at his own risk.
I suggest the potential buyer look for spotting. My limited experience with this junk (yes, I think it is junk, crap, ...) is that it will start to spot, the little spot(s) will usually grow .
I've checked out a number of blues at coin shows and you can often find a light spot or two (not the well know black spots from long ago sneezing) with good light and a loupe. I'm not saying this is a 100% perfect diagnostic, but it is something to look for.
<< <i>Pat: if you're gonna sell them, then I urge you to stand behind them 100%. If a buyer 'becomes educated' and wants a refund, you should give it. If the coin turns, you should buy it back and then take up the issue with NGC. If down the road the coin become market unacceptable and drops in value, you should refund the purchase price. JMHO. >>
I would urge a little more than that..... like being honest and upfront in the auction and stating that the coin is AT so that the buyer actually knows what he is buying. Then he can ride the market at his own risk. >>
I'll tell you what. I'm leaving for an appointment now, but when I return will state such in each auction!
I also offer a no question (as stated in my auction terms) seven day return but will extend it on these coins. I'll state that too upon my return.
<< <i>Pat: if you're gonna sell them, then I urge you to stand behind them 100%. If a buyer 'becomes educated' and wants a refund, you should give it. If the coin turns, you should buy it back and then take up the issue with NGC. If down the road the coin become market unacceptable and drops in value, you should refund the purchase price. JMHO. >>
I would urge a little more than that..... like being honest and upfront in the auction and stating that the coin is AT so that the buyer actually knows what he is buying. Then he can ride the market at his own risk. >>
I'll tell you what. I'm leaving for an appointment now, but when I return will state such in each auction!
I also offer a no question (as stated in my auction terms) seven day return but will extend it on these coins. I'll state that too upon my return.
<< <i>Pat: if you're gonna sell them, then I urge you to stand behind them 100%. If a buyer 'becomes educated' and wants a refund, you should give it. If the coin turns, you should buy it back and then take up the issue with NGC. If down the road the coin become market unacceptable and drops in value, you should refund the purchase price. JMHO. >>
I would urge a little more than that..... like being honest and upfront in the auction and stating that the coin is AT so that the buyer actually knows what he is buying. Then he can ride the market at his own risk. >>
I'll tell you what. I'm leaving for an appointment now, but when I return will state such in each auction!
I also offer a no question (as stated in my auction terms) seven day return but will extend it on these coins. I'll state that too upon my return.
-Pat >>
You do that, and you won't hear another peep from me. I don't have anything against selling a problem coin as long as there is full disclosure.
<< <i>Pat: if you're gonna sell them, then I urge you to stand behind them 100%. If a buyer 'becomes educated' and wants a refund, you should give it. If the coin turns, you should buy it back and then take up the issue with NGC. If down the road the coin become market unacceptable and drops in value, you should refund the purchase price. JMHO. >>
I would urge a little more than that..... like being honest and upfront in the auction and stating that the coin is AT so that the buyer actually knows what he is buying. Then he can ride the market at his own risk. >>
I'll tell you what. I'm leaving for an appointment now, but when I return will state such in each auction!
I also offer a no question (as stated in my auction terms) seven day return but will extend it on these coins. I'll state that too upon my return.
-Pat >>
Bravo!
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
-- "You do that, and you won't hear another peep from me. I don't have anything against selling a problem coin as long as there is full disclosure." --
I have something against making a problem even if it's sold with full disclosure. And don't forget that disclosure goes only as far as the initial sale.
<< <i>-- "You do that, and you won't hear another peep from me. I don't have anything against selling a problem coin as long as there is full disclosure." --
I have something against making a problem even if it's sold with full disclosure. And don't forget that disclosure goes only as far as the initial sale. >>
I agree with you Lou, but that is a question for NGC to answer. Pat's not going to be able to stop these from hitting the market "if" NGC has decided they will slab them. (I'm still not convinced that NGC has taken this position)
If you were in his shoes, you could either:
1. Sell it in the holder with full disclosure; 2. Crack it out and sell it raw with full disclosure; 3. Keep it and be buried with it; or 4. Demand a refund from NGC if this coin was slipped through and they are not intentionally slabbing them.
<< <i>-- "You do that, and you won't hear another peep from me. I don't have anything against selling a problem coin as long as there is full disclosure." --
I have something against making a problem even if it's sold with full disclosure. And don't forget that disclosure goes only as far as the initial sale. >>
I agree with you Lou, but that is a question for NGC to answer. Pat's not going to be able to stop these from hitting the market "if" NGC has decided they will slab them. (I'm still not convinced that NGC has taken this position)
If you were in his shoes, you could either:
1. Sell it in the holder with full disclosure; 2. Crack it out and sell it raw with full disclosure; 3. Keep it and be buried with it; or 4. Demand a refund from NGC if this coin was slipped through and they are not intentionally slabbing them. >>
I would add another:
5. Return the coin to the coin doctor/consignor and tell him you will no longer peddle his AT coins for personal gain.
That's what I would do, for I would value my good name and future business with all those reading this more than a consignment fee...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
The way that some of the forum members here are letting this slide just because a disclosure is being added to a auction makes me puke.
Pat and Greg are suppose to be top notch collectors and cornerstones on this forum and at Sleepy Hollow. Now it looks like they have changed their priorities in this hot market. One member, Greg, got booted from this forum because PCGS would not give the grades he wanted. Well, NGC will.
VERY DISAPPOINTED.....By both the members and especially Pat.
if a coin doctor offers to buy back his work at a later date because an incompetent 3rd party grader doesnt know good from bad.. does that make him an ethical and respectable coin doctor
The way that some of the forum members here are letting this slide just because a disclosure is being added to a auction makes me puke.
The fact that the disclosure was not 'considered material' at the time of the listing is the most troubling part of it to me. I'ts preferable that a disclosure be added...even if its late...but the fact that it is added 'under the gun' causes me to conclude that it is being done as 'damage control'. I'm not convinced that the seller believes any disclosure is necessary to fairly describe the auction item, and I disagree with that conclusion.
If the sellers want to REALLY make full disclosure, how about posting the before and after pictures of the coin as part of the auction description. If they think buyers really buy these things because they are so pretty, without regard to how they got that way, just post the before pictures with the after pictures and say 'look what a good job I did on this one...its beautiful'. IMO they are well aware that buyers would not find the coin so 'pretty' armed with full knowledge and pictures of the coins history.
the $eller who knows the coin is bad and hides behind the slab to justify his actions
or the 3rd party grader for holdering coins like those in the first place
both ......... and then this greedy submitter gives the coins to his friends to sell and spread the blame hides behinds others that is what is really sick
and screwing his friends to make a buck and we all know that the coins now are unsaleable much less demand excpet at way lower levels and hurts good toned coins as it drags the market down
i wonder if this hairless rat that has been doing this would like this done to him or his kids or his mom or his family
if the coins are so great and market acceptable let him buy them back and put them in his retirement fund
lol
what no takers or answer
yes money talks and i see the doctor will not do this
the company that slabbed most all of these coins deems them marketacceptable as they do not want to spend the $$$$$$$$$ to b uy them allback and then lose this submitters submissions of thousands of blue toned copper and world copper coins per year
sounds like a plan to me
lets all you players start to entrust your coin budgets and only buy from this doktor
For the love of money People will steal from their mother For the love of money People will rob their own brother For the love of money People can't even walk the street Because they never know who in the world they're gonna beat For that lean, mean, mean green Almighty dollar, money
For the love of money People will lie, Lord, they will cheat For the love of money People don't care who they hurt or beat For the love of money A woman will sell her precious body For a small piece of paper it carries a lot of weight Call it lean, mean, mean green
Almighty dollar
I know money is the root of all evil Do funny things to some people Give me a nickel, brother can you spare a dime Money can drive some people out of their minds
All for the love of money Don't let, don't let, don't let money rule you For the love of money Money can change people sometimes Don't let, don't let, don't let money fool you Money can fool people sometimes People! Don't let money, don't let money change you, it will keep on changing, changing up your mind.
The ASK NGC forum is fully moderated, similar to the DH Q&A forum, and threads take one or two days before they appear, if they appear at all. I thought it was worth a shot.
sounds to me like someone who messes with coins trying to absolve himself of any responsibility or morals with gross generalizations and half truths.. just my opinion
<< <i>and then lose this submitters submissions of thousands of blue toned copper and world copper coins per year. >>
I actually bought one of those World Coins that was sold by one of the mentioned sellers. The auction coin did not have JUICED photos like the Indians shown here. When the coin arrived it looked just fine to me. Maybe it was cleaned up a bit but many sellers do that with 100 year old coins.
It would be unfair to say that all of the submitters coins are Doctored in my opinion. Some may be cleaned up a little but to say they were Doctored is a reach.
You are getting very close to opening a Big Can of Worms.
<< <i>the $eller who knows the coin is bad and hides behind the slab to justify his actions
or the 3rd party grader for holdering coins like those in the first place
both ......... and then this greedy submitter gives the coins to his friends to sell and spread the blame hides behinds others that is what is really sick
and screwing his friends to make a buck and we all know that the coins now are unsaleable much less demand excpet at way lower levels and hurts good toned coins as it drags the market down
i wonder if this hairless rat that has been doing this would like this done to him or his kids or his mom or his family
if the coins are so great and market acceptable let him buy them back and put them in his retirement fund
lol
what no takers or answer
yes money talks and i see the doctor will not do this
the company that slabbed most all of these coins deems them marketacceptable as they do not want to spend the $$$$$$$$$ to b uy them allback and then lose this submitters submissions of thousands of blue toned copper and world copper coins per year
sounds like a plan to me
lets all you players start to entrust your coin budgets and only buy from this doktor
hmmmmmmmmm
no takers
lol
thought so
money talks bullsh*t walks >>
Michael has spoken the truth about what is going on - well spoken Michael!
No need to read the entire (and typical) gmarguli rant. Here is the nutshell version:
"Educate yourself because I'm going to screw you to the wall if I can, and it will be all your own fault. I have no responsibility to you or the hobby."
Like this is some kind of newsflash for the hobby. All I will add is which coins would you prefer to own? If most of you would answer honestly it would be the the "afters". I can't wait to see the righteous indignation.
I would hate to see the all beautifully toned IHCs get smeared because of the blue plague. I hope people like shylock, cohodk and others continue to expose this fraud. Maybe if the doctors are outed they will stop flooding the market. The Docs are really hurting the hobby by tarring all toned IHCs with this blue AT crap
Reminds me of the Vietnam era marine's comment about what used to be a hamlet, "we had to destroy the village in order to save it."
While I give Greg and Pat credit for owning up to what they are doing, I am nevertheless very disappointed with both of them.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Like this is some kind of newsflash for the hobby. All I will add is which coins would you prefer to own? If most of you would answer honestly it would be the the "afters". I can't wait to see the righteous indignation. >>
Of course the afters, BUT:
1) what if they turn in the holder? 2) wouldn't you prefer an educated choice? and 3) should doctors reap the benefits, especially in light of the uncertainty?
Just want to add that I've seen a handful of (expensive) blue toned PF Braided Hair Half Cents over the years in NGC holders, and some IMO baked, and in one case recently, a pedigreed coin in a PC holder.
One way for many of these problems to end, at least temporarily, is a market implosion, where there isn't the money to be made doing this sort of thing as there is at present.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Comments
let's quit pussy-footing around here and acknowledge the facts, the first coin is listed by forum member Pat Braddick, the second is listed by former forum member Greg Margulis. perhaps everyone's afraid of stating as much because they're worried that they might offend someone or put their good standing with one of the two in jeapordy. oh well. i like Braddick and before his bannishment to parts over the horizon i got along OK with GMarguli, but this begs each of us to put the hobby's best interests first and worry about ourselves last. unless of course you sanction this stuff and are actually a hypocrite.
i would wonder if both guys know what they are offering?? do they know how the coins came to change so dramatically?? are they willing to disclose the answers to those questions within this thread?? irony of ironies, i believe it was Braddick who outed the Bear/Anaconda $15k Peace Dollar from the Long Beach Show, the coin pictured below which was soundly scorned. if those facts are accurate, how do you indict someone else and then list such a glaringly suspect coin like his??
just another day at the office, i suspect. i will withhold final judgement and opinion on these guys till we get some additional information. i just hope we don't have to ask too many times or wait too long.
As a collector of proof IHCs it makes me sad and angry to see this stuff get into good plastic. My experience has been that the blues are fairly easy to make. I've never been able to make a good toned proof of other colors, but that is only my experience.
I would hate to see the all beautifully toned IHCs get smeared because of the blue plague. I hope people like shylock, cohodk and others continue to expose this fraud. Maybe if the doctors are outed they will stop flooding the market. The Docs are really hurting the hobby by tarring all toned IHCs with this blue AT crap
absent the NGC opinion and with the knowledge that perhaps many collectors/dealers and probably PCGS and ANACS find these to be AT'D or at best, questionable, what is your feeling about them?
And.... make no mistake about it.... the owner of any coin can do as they please with it. If one owned and wanted to smash a 1913 Liberty nickel with a sledge hammer.... they can legally do so if the owner.... and would then be the owner of the only unique smashed 1913 nickel in the world (hmmm... I wonder how that would sell on eBay). But I am sure they would not be too popular or well thought of in the hobby.
Unfortunaltely, with each coin that is being processed, that is one less that is preserved for the future. (this is assuming the coin does not NEED to be processed to halt corrosion, etc). The original coins are dwindling.
As a collector of proof IHCs it makes me sad and angry to see this stuff get into good plastic.
very disheartening to read a post like this. it seems to be just so much fodder for Carlin's routine about words/terms that are mutually exclusive-----jumbo shrimp, military intelligence and now, good plastic and NGC.
But, if YOU know they have been colored up, what does it matter what ngc said?
I do believe that Greg posted on the NGC chatroom that he does the deed himself.
<< <i> Braddick, you are right.... to each their own >>
I disagree. Not every colletor has the knowledge or experience to know if the "blue" they are buying is AT or not. As long as the grading services are slabbing them many people will think they are OK. The market will discount these, the coin docs will make a tidy profit, and the collectors will lose in the long run.
You can't protect every collector, but you can make an effort to ensure that people who buy this crap know what they are getting. The grading services and the sellers of this junk sure aren't providing that information!
<< <i>hey Pat, you answered the questions as i was asking them, that's fast. absent the NGC opinion and with the knowledge that perhaps many collectors/dealers and probably PCGS and ANACS find these to be AT'D or at best, questionable, what is your feeling about them? >>
Keets, I'm not sure what PCGS's opinion is now- but I would suspect they would not holder these. Possibly someone from PCGS can come along and confirm that.
ANACS does still holder these as I own two myself that were holdered via ANACS three weeks ago. I may or I may not sell them down the road.
I personally may have purchased these, before their "outing" for my own collection and not have sold them. Now that NGC, with all the evidence before them, both pro and con, had decided to continue to grade and holder these, I have no problem selling them.
I see many threads of Heritage coins purchased, currated, and then reholdered either with NGC and/or PCGS that are then worth multiples of their original selling price. Whether that is wrong either ethically or morally is up to each individual. On some of the ultra blast white (they look overdipped to me- plain and simple) older classics I personally have a problem with and don't buy them for my collection. Others do make a market in these.
I enjoy the look of these blue Indians though and own three of them for myself- selling others either outright or on consignement.
Truly, to each is own. The market generally has a way of sorting all these things out.
peacockcoins
all are questions we each have to answer, as Braddick said, to our own satisfaction. the real truth of the matter won't be known for a generation or two.
<< <i>
<< <i>hey Pat, you answered the questions as i was asking them, that's fast. absent the NGC opinion and with the knowledge that perhaps many collectors/dealers and probably PCGS and ANACS find these to be AT'D or at best, questionable, what is your feeling about them? >>
Keets, I'm not sure what PCGS's opinion is now- but I would suspect they would not holder these. Possibly someone from PCGS can come along and confirm that.
ANACS does still holder these as I own two myself that were holdered via ANACS three weeks ago. I may or I may not sell them down the road.
I personally may have purchased these, before their "outing" for my own collection and not have sold them. Now that NGC, with all the evidence before them, both pro and con, had decided to continue to grade and holder these, I have no problem selling them.
I see many threads of Heritage coins purchased, currated, and then reholdered either with NGC and/or PCGS that are then worth multiples of their original selling price. Whether that is wrong either ethically or morally is up to each individual. On some of the ultra blast white (they look overdipped to me- plain and simple) older classics I personally have a problem with and don't buy them for my collection. Others do make a market in these.
I enjoy the look of these blue Indians though and own three of them for myself- selling others either outright or on consignement.
Truly, to each is own. The market generally has a way of sorting all these things out. >>
Pat: if you're gonna sell them, then I urge you to stand behind them 100%. If a buyer 'becomes educated' and wants a refund, you should give it. If the coin turns, you should buy it back and then take up the issue with NGC. If down the road the coin become market unacceptable and drops in value, you should refund the purchase price. JMHO.
Since when does a TPG have the power of absolution?
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>-- "I personally may have purchased these, before their 'outing' for my own collection and not have sold them. Now that NGC, with all the evidence before them, both pro and con, had decided to continue to grade and holder these, I have no problem selling them." --
Since when does a TPG have the power of absolution? >>
In good faith, if the seller knows they've been done ("market acceptable" or not), he must disclose and be willing to refund. Period.
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
<< <i>Pat: if you're gonna sell them, then I urge you to stand behind them 100%. If a buyer 'becomes educated' and wants a refund, you should give it. If the coin turns, you should buy it back and then take up the issue with NGC. If down the road the coin become market unacceptable and drops in value, you should refund the purchase price. JMHO. >>
I would urge a little more than that..... like being honest and upfront in the auction and stating that the coin is AT so that the buyer actually knows what he is buying. Then he can ride the market at his own risk.
<< <i>If the coin turns >>
I suggest the potential buyer look for spotting. My limited experience with this junk (yes, I think it is junk, crap, ...) is that it will start to spot, the little spot(s) will usually grow
I've checked out a number of blues at coin shows and you can often find a light spot or two (not the well know black spots from long ago sneezing) with good light and a loupe. I'm not saying this is a 100% perfect diagnostic, but it is something to look for.
<< <i>
<< <i>Pat: if you're gonna sell them, then I urge you to stand behind them 100%. If a buyer 'becomes educated' and wants a refund, you should give it. If the coin turns, you should buy it back and then take up the issue with NGC. If down the road the coin become market unacceptable and drops in value, you should refund the purchase price. JMHO. >>
I would urge a little more than that..... like being honest and upfront in the auction and stating that the coin is AT so that the buyer actually knows what he is buying. Then he can ride the market at his own risk. >>
I'll tell you what. I'm leaving for an appointment now, but when I return will state such in each auction!
I also offer a no question (as stated in my auction terms) seven day return but will extend it on these coins. I'll state that too upon my return.
-Pat
peacockcoins
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Pat: if you're gonna sell them, then I urge you to stand behind them 100%. If a buyer 'becomes educated' and wants a refund, you should give it. If the coin turns, you should buy it back and then take up the issue with NGC. If down the road the coin become market unacceptable and drops in value, you should refund the purchase price. JMHO. >>
I would urge a little more than that..... like being honest and upfront in the auction and stating that the coin is AT so that the buyer actually knows what he is buying. Then he can ride the market at his own risk. >>
I'll tell you what. I'm leaving for an appointment now, but when I return will state such in each auction!
I also offer a no question (as stated in my auction terms) seven day return but will extend it on these coins. I'll state that too upon my return.
-Pat >>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Pat: if you're gonna sell them, then I urge you to stand behind them 100%. If a buyer 'becomes educated' and wants a refund, you should give it. If the coin turns, you should buy it back and then take up the issue with NGC. If down the road the coin become market unacceptable and drops in value, you should refund the purchase price. JMHO. >>
I would urge a little more than that..... like being honest and upfront in the auction and stating that the coin is AT so that the buyer actually knows what he is buying. Then he can ride the market at his own risk. >>
I'll tell you what. I'm leaving for an appointment now, but when I return will state such in each auction!
I also offer a no question (as stated in my auction terms) seven day return but will extend it on these coins. I'll state that too upon my return.
-Pat >>
You do that, and you won't hear another peep from me. I don't have anything against selling a problem coin as long as there is full disclosure.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Pat: if you're gonna sell them, then I urge you to stand behind them 100%. If a buyer 'becomes educated' and wants a refund, you should give it. If the coin turns, you should buy it back and then take up the issue with NGC. If down the road the coin become market unacceptable and drops in value, you should refund the purchase price. JMHO. >>
I would urge a little more than that..... like being honest and upfront in the auction and stating that the coin is AT so that the buyer actually knows what he is buying. Then he can ride the market at his own risk. >>
I'll tell you what. I'm leaving for an appointment now, but when I return will state such in each auction!
I also offer a no question (as stated in my auction terms) seven day return but will extend it on these coins. I'll state that too upon my return.
-Pat >>
Bravo!
I have something against making a problem even if it's sold with full disclosure. And don't forget that disclosure goes only as far as the initial sale.
Several of these coins that were in NGC plastic are now in PCGS plastic.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>And don't forget that disclosure goes only as far as the initial sale. >>
Good point.
<< <i>-- "You do that, and you won't hear another peep from me. I don't have anything against selling a problem coin as long as there is full disclosure." --
I have something against making a problem even if it's sold with full disclosure. And don't forget that disclosure goes only as far as the initial sale. >>
I agree with you Lou, but that is a question for NGC to answer. Pat's not going to be able to stop these from hitting the market "if" NGC has decided they will slab them. (I'm still not convinced that NGC has taken this position)
If you were in his shoes, you could either:
1. Sell it in the holder with full disclosure;
2. Crack it out and sell it raw with full disclosure;
3. Keep it and be buried with it; or
4. Demand a refund from NGC if this coin was slipped through and they are not intentionally slabbing them.
<< <i>
<< <i>-- "You do that, and you won't hear another peep from me. I don't have anything against selling a problem coin as long as there is full disclosure." --
I have something against making a problem even if it's sold with full disclosure. And don't forget that disclosure goes only as far as the initial sale. >>
I agree with you Lou, but that is a question for NGC to answer. Pat's not going to be able to stop these from hitting the market "if" NGC has decided they will slab them. (I'm still not convinced that NGC has taken this position)
If you were in his shoes, you could either:
1. Sell it in the holder with full disclosure;
2. Crack it out and sell it raw with full disclosure;
3. Keep it and be buried with it; or
4. Demand a refund from NGC if this coin was slipped through and they are not intentionally slabbing them. >>
I would add another:
5. Return the coin to the coin doctor/consignor and tell him you will no longer peddle his AT coins for personal gain.
That's what I would do, for I would value my good name and future business with all those reading this more than a consignment fee...Mike
Pat and Greg are suppose to be top notch collectors and cornerstones on this forum and at Sleepy Hollow. Now it looks like they have changed their priorities in this hot market. One member, Greg, got booted from this forum because PCGS would not give the grades he wanted. Well, NGC will.
VERY DISAPPOINTED.....By both the members and especially Pat.
Ken
I like that option.....
So it's OK to doctor a coin as long as an option to return the doctored coin is given.
Whew - I'm glad we got that cleared up.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
The fact that the disclosure was not 'considered material' at the time of the listing is the most troubling part of it to me. I'ts preferable that a disclosure be added...even if its late...but the fact that it is added 'under the gun' causes me to conclude that it is being done as 'damage control'. I'm not convinced that the seller believes any disclosure is necessary to fairly describe the auction item, and I disagree with that conclusion.
If the sellers want to REALLY make full disclosure, how about posting the before and after pictures of the coin as part of the auction description. If they think buyers really buy these things because they are so pretty, without regard to how they got that way, just post the before pictures with the after pictures and say 'look what a good job I did on this one...its beautiful'. IMO they are well aware that buyers would not find the coin so 'pretty' armed with full knowledge and pictures of the coins history.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
the $eller who knows the coin is bad and hides behind the slab to justify his actions
or the 3rd party grader for holdering coins like those in the first place
or the 3rd party grader for holdering coins like those in the first place
both ......... and then this greedy submitter gives the coins to his friends to sell and spread the blame hides behinds others that is what is really sick
and screwing his friends to make a buck and we all know that the coins now are unsaleable much less demand excpet at way lower levels and hurts good toned coins as it drags the market down
i wonder if this hairless rat that has been doing this would like this done to him or his kids or his mom or his family
if the coins are so great and market acceptable let him buy them back and put them in his retirement fund
lol
what no takers or answer
yes money talks and i see the doctor will not do this
the company that slabbed most all of these coins deems them marketacceptable as they do not want to spend the $$$$$$$$$ to b uy them allback and then lose this submitters submissions of thousands of blue toned copper and world copper coins per year
sounds like a plan to me
lets all you players start to entrust your coin budgets and only buy from this doktor
hmmmmmmmmm
no takers
lol
thought so
money talks bullsh*t walks
This seller is forever tainted and the sickening rationalizations just made it worse.
I think quite a bit of trust has been lost because of this enlightening thread
People will steal from their mother
For the love of money
People will rob their own brother
For the love of money
People can't even walk the street
Because they never know who in the world they're gonna beat
For that lean, mean, mean green
Almighty dollar, money
For the love of money
People will lie, Lord, they will cheat
For the love of money
People don't care who they hurt or beat
For the love of money
A woman will sell her precious body
For a small piece of paper it carries a lot of weight
Call it lean, mean, mean green
Almighty dollar
I know money is the root of all evil
Do funny things to some people
Give me a nickel, brother can you spare a dime
Money can drive some people out of their minds
All for the love of money
Don't let, don't let, don't let money rule you
For the love of money
Money can change people sometimes
Don't let, don't let, don't let money fool you
Money can fool people sometimes
People! Don't let money, don't let money change you,
it will keep on changing, changing up your mind.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
<< <i>I've posted a new thread on the ASK NGC forum about their continuing slabbing of these pieces, let's see if NGC will address the issue. >>
I just came from there, I didn't see it.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>Another Point of View >>
sounds to me like someone who messes with coins trying to absolve himself of any responsibility or morals with gross generalizations and half truths.. just my opinion
<< <i> I thought it was worth a shot. >>
It sure was. I hope they address it.
<< <i>and then lose this submitters submissions of thousands of blue toned copper and world copper coins per year. >>
I actually bought one of those World Coins that was sold by one of the mentioned sellers. The auction coin did not have JUICED photos like the Indians shown here. When the coin arrived it looked just fine to me. Maybe it was cleaned up a bit but many sellers do that with 100 year old coins.
It would be unfair to say that all of the submitters coins are Doctored in my opinion. Some may be cleaned up a little but to say they were Doctored is a reach.
You are getting very close to opening a Big Can of Worms.
Ken
<< <i>the $eller who knows the coin is bad and hides behind the slab to justify his actions
or the 3rd party grader for holdering coins like those in the first place
both ......... and then this greedy submitter gives the coins to his friends to sell and spread the blame hides behinds others that is what is really sick
and screwing his friends to make a buck and we all know that the coins now are unsaleable much less demand excpet at way lower levels and hurts good toned coins as it drags the market down
i wonder if this hairless rat that has been doing this would like this done to him or his kids or his mom or his family
if the coins are so great and market acceptable let him buy them back and put them in his retirement fund
lol
what no takers or answer
yes money talks and i see the doctor will not do this
the company that slabbed most all of these coins deems them marketacceptable as they do not want to spend the $$$$$$$$$ to b uy them allback and then lose this submitters submissions of thousands of blue toned copper and world copper coins per year
sounds like a plan to me
lets all you players start to entrust your coin budgets and only buy from this doktor
hmmmmmmmmm
no takers
lol
thought so
money talks bullsh*t walks >>
Michael has spoken the truth about what is going on - well spoken Michael!
<< <i>Another Point of View >>
I didn't want to rob the bank, shoot the teller, and run over that baby during my escape, the market made me do it.
<< <i>another case where the tree fell in the woods and we all heard it. how many will remember the sound and for how long?? >>
indeed
<< <i>another case where the tree fell in the woods and we all heard it. how many will remember the sound and for how long?? >>
- I have a memory like an elephant when it comes to where I spend my money.
<< <i>Another Point of View >>
No need to read the entire (and typical) gmarguli rant. Here is the nutshell version:
"Educate yourself because I'm going to screw you to the wall if I can, and it will be all your own fault. I have no responsibility to you or the hobby."
Reminds me of the Vietnam era marine's comment about what used to be a hamlet, "we had to destroy the village in order to save it."
While I give Greg and Pat credit for owning up to what they are doing, I am nevertheless very disappointed with both of them.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Like this is some kind of newsflash for the hobby. All I will add is which coins would you prefer to own? If most of you would answer honestly it would be the the "afters". I can't wait to see the righteous indignation.
Of course the afters, BUT:
1) what if they turn in the holder?
2) wouldn't you prefer an educated choice? and
3) should doctors reap the benefits, especially in light of the uncertainty?
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
One way for many of these problems to end, at least temporarily, is a market implosion, where there isn't the money to be made doing this sort of thing as there is at present.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."