I listened to the entire Mets game yesterday on the way upstate NY for a party, and once again became nearly sick as El Duque had another stellar performance. To think the Yankees could have had him back for next to nothing and instead we have a fat drunk who cant pitch in Ponson ( I say who cant pitch because I had no problem with Wells being a fat drunk as long as he pitched great for the Yanks)
Letting El Duque go is something I will never forgive Torre for. I dont know the full story behind why he didnt like him, but I thought there was something said about the two regarding their pitching strategy and philosophy. To me it seemed Torre had a problem with El Duque questioning him when being taken out of games. I dont know about anyone else, but Id prefer a pitcher with the heart and the balls to want to stay in the game and get himself out of jams.
On another note, I heard on the FAN this morning they are still in talks regarding Abreu. It was mentioned the Yankees were trying to put together a package that would include Proctor.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
I have read all about the Abreu thing too. I will $hit myself if the Yankees trade Proctor. I refuse to go nuts unless something actually happens .....
I hope they don't let Proctor go, he's the first in the line of 4 minor league releivers the Yanks have that I'm glad are coming up. He has the stuff to be a key component for the next decade in the pen. The Yankees don't need Abreu, or his contract. I have a feeling Melky/Bernie will pickup the slack for the outfield just fine like they already have this whole season. Plus, I see something special with Melky. The way Cano could get the hits in the playoffs last year I think Melky has that same vein in him. Hopefully Georgey/Cashman won't do anything to disrupt the chemistry that has been built up this regular season. The Yankees NEED pitching. Not hitting. Hitting is the LAST thing the Yankees need.
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<< <i>great answer Ax ..... so, do you watch the M's on a regular basis? Dish? I grew up with the Yankees, Giants, etc and could NOT imagine rooting for a team from a different region from where I grew up. I "honestly" do not understand how that is possible. But I do know that there are TONS of fans who root for teams from far away. Baseball, football, basketball, hockey .... all of them. >>
I watch as many games as possible - the wonders of directtv. I also catch a lot of games on ESPN's gamecast...they do a great job in presenting a game without actually showing any action. Hard to explain without actually seeing it.
<< <i>edited to say that .... Brian, you almost seem human with your last post in this thread. Are you putting me on? >>
Ahhhhhhh, vacation and afternoon baseball.... what a great combination... My predictions? Some early runs off Marcum, 6 solid for Lidle, a couple of hits for Jeter, a HR for Giambi.
<< <i>Ahhhhhhh, vacation and afternoon baseball.... what a great combination... My predictions? Some early runs off Marcum, 6 solid for Lidle, a couple of hits for Jeter, a HR for Giambi. >>
well, I was a little off on the Jeter hits (he only had one) but the other predictions were pretty solid................
Randy Johnson's ERA is over 5 runs per game. He is filling space and covering innings in the rotation. His arm is still alive, but nothing near his previous career accomplishment levels. The Yankees need to sort out how to best use him. I think he needs rest, due to his age, and will be of more value heading into the post season if they take this approach.
Proud of my 16x20 autographed and framed collection - all signed in person. Not big on modern - I'm stuck in the past!
Great rebound from being one hit today. Abreu has been a hit machine since the trade. Paplebon blows a save and in just about 10 days the Yankees have gained 5 1/2 games on the Red Sox. The beat goes on ...
<< <i>Great rebound from being one hit today. Abreu has been a hit machine since the trade. Paplebon blows a save and in just about 10 days the Yankees have gained 5 1/2 games on the Red Sox. The beat goes on ... >>
Dear Yanks fans:
You're welcome. We couldn't bear paying Abreu's salary anymore anyway.
Mussina was just put on the 15 day DL. He hasnt won in a month, now is hurt. Another year he wont get 20. I know alot of Yankee fans will get on me for saying this, but he is not all he is cracked up to be. If he was he would have won 20 already. Every year there is some injury, or some slump, or some whatever that happens to this guy. Now when they need him the most, with the postseason within sights, he is pulling up lame.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
I never liked him as an O, and TRUST me I saw him in many many games pre-Yankees days. He's talked up but I honestly don't consider him an Elite/Ace pitcher. A good one yes, but he would be a #2 pitcher at best in a rotation if I was building it(I'd actually have him in the second or fourth slot in a rotation). This year he finally got around to learning the positives of varying speeds; about 5 years after he should've mastered this. He'll be back for the playoffs, Pavano made a start at Trenton so who knows with him. Maybe a callup of Arron Small will happen. Hopefully the Yanks will also bring up another arm for the bullpen. As much as I like Proctor and agree he's going to be a force for the Yankee bullpen for years to come I think another arm is a good idea. If for ANY reason, than the Boston series. Lets face it guys(99% of you know this) our pitching ain't what it used to be. Last thing I want to see is a team like the Chisox or D-Town getting into a zone on our pitchers and having our bullpen destroyed come september.
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I don't give a crap about 20 wins. I care about his groin getting better. Mussina has been good all year and he certainly didn't hurt himself on purpose. He is a gamer and the LAST guy on the Yankees staff I will take to task.
Bri, You talk very fondly of El Duque who has made a living taking partial seasons OFF in order to be the way he has been in the post season for certainly mysterious ailments. Now, Mussina has not been part of a championship like El Duque has but I think you are nit picking with him. Mussina is not a head case who gives his best effort every time out. Thats all I can ask for .....
In many ways I think Mussina is a head case. The guy is obviously a smart man, dont get me wrong, but i think that has gotten him into trouble over the years. Too much thinking can be a bad thing sometimes.
Granted, I may indeed be nitpicking at Mussina, but its nothing new. I had all the same things to say about him before the season when the debate came up, and I wont waver now. He carried the team the first half, but somehow, some way, I kinda expected a collapse somewhere along the line for him. I just dont envision him as a big game guy when it matters most. And I would gladly take El Duque over him any day come postseason.
BTW Dan, how was the air show ? We had alot to do around here and couldnt make it down. Let me know how it went, Im sure it was killer.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
Airshow was great! The Thunder Birds and Blue Angels go without saying. The F-22 Raptor was very impressive as was the B2 Bomber. Of all that went on I was especially fond of the Heritage flight of a P-51 Mustang, F-4 Phantom, F-15 Eagle, and the F22 Raptor all in formation. THAT was sweet seeing that little P-51 leading the formation ....
I have to say that Im in the cheering section for Moose. He has been very solid this year, with this past month being the exception. I just hope he does come back healthy and effective. He's a class act...a bit of a head case...but like Dan said, he is a gamer. We need him healthy down the stretch!
scary game yesterday, i don't know what it is but the angels sure seem to have the yankees number at times, even an 11 run lead isn't safe against them. The bigger question is...
Whats up with all the staches?
I thought i was watching a 70's porno flick when i saw Giambi and Damon batting yesterday, yikes!
Sorry for the blank posts, but DAMN D.J. is showin' YET AGAIN why he is the man! Yanks down 2-0 in the 6th...runners on 2nd & 3rd one out. Jeter spanks it to left and drives in two runs to tie the game. THEN he steals 3rd, Steriod Boy Jason is walked, A-Rod hits a weak infeild grounder for a feilder's choice, but Jeter is quick enough to score. Cano then pops out to end the inning. If D.J. wins the MVP, it won't be a wonder why.
If you subbed in jeter with an average SS, the yankees would have won about the same number of games. I'd put him in top 5 MVP voting, but not the winner.
Lucky for him Ortiz is gone for the season. Manny's had a better season than Jeter, too.
Ax, I couldn't disagree more. It's Jeter's super human effort and sheer ability to win that makes him the best shortstop in MLB. I know, I know, some others may have better "numbers" but like tonight's game illustrates, there is NO ONE like Jeter when it comes to making things happen, both with the bat & with the glove. What Jeter did tonight he does ALL THE TIME, which is why Yankee fans are ready to put up his plaque in monument park right now. It's really crazy if you watch him a lot, you just know he's gonna come thru when you need him. To me, the only other guy who could be AL MVP is Ortiz, but with the Sox slipping in the standings, his heath issues (hope the big guy gets better) and the fact he's a DH, I think we may be looking at Jeter as AL MVP.
<< <i>Ax, I couldn't disagree more. It's Jeter's super human effort and sheer ability to win that makes him the best shortstop in MLB. >>
hahaha I always love this from jeter jock sniffers 'he knows how to win!' Come on now, are you serious?
<< <i>I know, I know, some others may have better "numbers" but like tonight's game illustrates, there is NO ONE like Jeter when it comes to making things happen, both with the bat & with the glove. What Jeter did tonight he does ALL THE TIME, which is why Yankee fans are ready to put up his plaque in monument park right now. It's really crazy if you watch him a lot, you just know he's gonna come thru when you need him. To me, the only other guy who could be AL MVP is Ortiz, but with the Sox slipping in the standings, his heath issues (hope the big guy gets better) and the fact he's a DH, I think we may be looking at Jeter as AL MVP. >>
I would think guys like Mauer would be more valuable, because where would the Twins be without his bat this year? The yankees, on the other hand, would have a roster full of all stars driving in a ton of runs with or without jeter. I'd put Dye over jeter, too. Hell, even Thome.
Thome is on base just as often as jeter (identical OBP through today), scoring more runs, with three times as many HRs.
Dye has similar OBP (.390 vs. .413), and, too, is killing him in power numbers and RBI.
Manny is besting him in OBP (.442 vs. .413), again with much, much better power numbers and RBI.
Arrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggg!!!! We need some relief pitching NOW! Mo can't do it all the time *sigh* Just when I was beginning to think, "Hey, this Proctor guy ain't so bad" Sheesh.
Proctor really hasn't been hitting his spots the past 2 weeks; it came to the forefront during the Yankee/Sox series(atleast, when I noticed it). He's definetly tiring, as well as overthinking. He's done a great job so far as a youngster; in finding a role for himself but he doesn't have the swagger he had a month ago. Eh, maybe it's just me but the kid seems a little shaken up as of late.
Jete's hitting .444 with the bases juiced, .390 with RISP, .388 with RISP and 2 outs, and .355 with runners on. With men on and 2 outs he's batting .380, with a man on third and less than 2 outs Jete's batting .467.
Matsui and Sheff were out; Arod didn't have an Arod-typical season, and Jete stepped up. A month ago I wouldn't have put up such of a discussion. But look what has happened, the Yankees are now UP by 8.0 games when just a month ago the buzz was the NY wouldn't make the playoffs AT ALL.
So what shortstops to you consider average? Freddy Sanchez? Carlos Guillen? Sanchez is really the only guy who matches closely with Jete in numbers. I wouldn't consider any of the guys I listed as "average".
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<< <i>Matsui and Sheff were out; Arod didn't have an Arod-typical season, and Jete stepped up. A month ago I wouldn't have put up such of a discussion. But look what has happened, the Yankees are now UP by 8.0 games when just a month ago the buzz was the NY wouldn't make the playoffs AT ALL. >>
Boston imploding had more to do with this than the yankees.
True, Boston did implode. But let's not discount that 5 game series in Fenway. Any other counterpoints on Jete(come on, is Freddy Sanchez the "average" SS?)
Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
<< <i>True, Boston did implode. But let's not discount that 5 game series in Fenway. Any other counterpoints on Jete(come on, is Freddy Sanchez the "average" SS?) >>
What do you want me to say about Jeter? That there's a handful of guys who have had better years that are contributing more to their team's success? That if you took Jeter's numbers away and replaced with a mediocre bat (say batting .250 with 8 HRs and 30 RBI) the yankees would still have a sizeable lead? That the hitters I mentioned previously have had more impact on their team's successes than Jeter has?
Look at the numbers Thome is putting up. Or Dye. Mauer.
All of those guys are on teams either going to the playoffs or going to be there until the very end. While I don't agree that a player has to be on a postseason bound team to win, I can understand the argument.
How about a player like Carlos Guillen? He's on the best team in baseball (a team most picked for another cellar run), similar OBP to Jeter (.390 vs .413) but better power numbers. How is he not an MVP candidate?
I would think a hitter like Guillen to be more 'valuable' than Jeter because without a bat like that, there's not a lineup of all stars behind him.
I also mentioned Carlos Guillen. While he has very similar numbers, he's situational numbers are nowhere near Jetes.
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<< <i>I also mentioned Carlos Guillen. While he has very similar numbers, he's situational numbers are nowhere near Jetes. >>
Jeter's had a nice year, but he's not the MVP. Too many other more qualified candidates who have been more important to their team's successes than Jeter.
<< <i>It's Jeter's super human effort and sheer ability to win >>
I can't decide which one made me laugh more. Good stuff, there...
Ax basically covered all the key points about the MVP candidates, but I realize facts often don't matter to the Jeter crowd. You have to acknowledge his good season, but right now, Ortiz, Manny, Jermaine Dye (if not Ortiz, this guy gets my vote), Mauer, Thome, all have had better seasons statistically, and seasons that are more in line with the definition of an MVP. Take Jeter out of NY, put another SS in there, and I doubt the Yanks would miss a beat.
<< <i>he's situational numbers are nowhere near Jetes >>
Could you explain this? What situations are you referring to? Last time we had our monthly "Jeter is overrated" thread, I thought we established, quite definitively, that his numbers don't vary much at all from situation to situation, nor from regular season to post-season.
<< <i>he's situational numbers are nowhere near Jetes >>
Could you explain this? What situations are you referring to? Last time we had our monthly "Jeter is overrated" thread, I thought we established, quite definitively, that his numbers don't vary much at all from situation to situation, nor from regular season to post-season. >>
Jete's hitting .444 with the bases juiced, .390 with RISP, .388 with RISP and 2 outs, and .355 with runners on. With men on and 2 outs he's batting .380, with a man on third and less than 2 outs Jete's batting .467.
Check those against Carlos Guillens, the only SS I've seen with nearly identical numbers is Sanchez of Pittsburgh.
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<< <i> Check those against Carlos Guillens, the only SS I've seen with nearly identical numbers is Sanchez of Pittsburgh. >>
I think you are missing the basic premise of my debate (which ct summed up nicely):
If you took a mediocre, average shortstop, and stuck him in place of Jeter, the yankees would essentially be in the same exact spot as they are now: leading the division and going to the playoffs. Take away any of the guys I mentioned, and their teams would be in a world of hurt.
That, to me, is the definition of MVP.
Hey, 80s, whats a 'BARRELL'? Second, who exactly are you trying to insult here?
Who by your definition is a "mediocre, average shortstop"? So your saying without Jete they'd be in the same place as they are now? Come on, I think your seriously discounting Jete's value to the Yankees. For a time the Blue Jays were breathing down the neck of the Yanks for second place in the AL East. Without Jeter the Yankees wouldn't be in the lead in the AL East, and would be looking up at 2 teams in the wild card race.
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Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Where was this talk of a 'meltdown' last year as he was winning an MVP, or the year before? Hmmm? Perhaps he's just having a bad year, and the supposed 'pressure' of playing in NY has NOTHING to do with it? MAYBE?
And he dares to lump Arod in with those other clowns? What an insult. This guy should be hung up by this thumbnails for the vultures to feed upon. What an absolute joke.
<< <i> Who by your definition is a "mediocre, average shortstop"? So your saying without Jete they'd be in the same place as they are now? Come on, I think your seriously discounting Jete's value to the Yankees. For a time the Blue Jays were breathing down the neck of the Yanks for second place in the AL East. Without Jeter the Yankees wouldn't be in the lead in the AL East, and would be looking up at 2 teams in the wild card race. >>
Whoa whoa when were the blue jays ever in serious contention ahead of the red sox for second place? Are you kidding me? And without jeter they'd be behind the imploding sox, and behind both teams in the central for the wild card?
No no no, I was stating that for a time the YANKEES were in trouble of falling behind the Blue Jays(Not the Sox falling behind the Jays); before the manager-Hillenbrand incident which basically has unraveled the team over the past month.
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If anyone really honestly thinks that you could take Jeter out of the lineup and replace him with your run of the mill shortstop and that the yankees wouldn't skip a beat, there can be only 2 theory's why someone would think that
A: they don't know sh*t about the game of baseball B: they are mentally retarded
The things he does day in and day out makes other players look like bush leaguers. How many times do you see "Manny" or "Big Papi" hustle down to first on a ground out? - Never, When do you see Manny or Big Papi drop down a sac bunt to move the runner over? Never When do you see Manny or Big Papi head into the stands to grab a pop up - Never
Now, i like Big Papi as a DH, and he's as clutch as they come, but he's not a complete ballplayer, if he was he'd be at first or in one of the corners in the outfield.
And Manny is basically worthless other than his tremendous bat and hitting ability, how many times has Jeter snuck off behind the sign in Fenway and missed a pitch in a game? Never, Manny - at least once on tape.
The Jeter bias is amazing, anyone who actually watches baseball would realize just how special a player he really is.
<< <i>If anyone really honestly thinks that you could take Jeter out of the lineup and replace him with your run of the mill shortstop and that the yankees wouldn't skip a beat, there can be only 2 theory's why someone would think that
A: they don't know sh*t about the game of baseball B: they are mentally retarded
The things he does day in and day out makes other players look like bush leaguers. How many times do you see "Manny" or "Big Papi" hustle down to first on a ground out? - Never, When do you see Manny or Big Papi drop down a sac bunt to move the runner over? Never When do you see Manny or Big Papi head into the stands to grab a pop up - Never
Now, i like Big Papi as a DH, and he's as clutch as they come, but he's not a complete ballplayer, if he was he'd be at first or in one of the corners in the outfield.
And Manny is basically worthless other than his tremendous bat and hitting ability, how many times has Jeter snuck off behind the sign in Fenway and missed a pitch in a game? Never, Manny - at least once on tape.
The Jeter bias is amazing, anyone who actually watches baseball would realize just how special a player he really is. >>
gfb, you have got to be kidding me.
Manny is "worthless"? You latch onto one little thing that is so insignificant in the grand scheme of things (he does run behind the Monster once in a while like many players who have played left field in Boston have always done during breaks in the game, and yes once a pitch was thrown - sound the alarm!!!) and say he's worthless? One of the best RBI producers in baseball history, and he's worthless. Okay, you are not exactly an astute baseball observer, this we can see.
And, you really want Manny and Ortiz to bunt? Are you insane, man? You clearly are the one with the lack of baseball knowledge, if you actually believe that is a good strategy - but, I guess you don't watch the Sox much. Big Papi has bunted many times, against the shift they employ against him, and he even has several hits this way. But, when you have two of the best power hitters in the game today in your lineup, I can't imagine anyone thinking that they should be playing small ball and bunting runners over. Does Sheffield do that? What an absolutely ridiculous concept.
Diving in to the stands is a sign of greatness, now? Well, when you play left field like Ramirez does, you don't have the same opportunity to go crowd diving, but he clearly fields his position. The average fan eats those kind of plays that Jeter made when he dove into the stands up like halloween candy, but while it was a nice play, it really doesn't mean jack in this context. I've seen Manny dive for balls hit to him as well, so what? That's what good defensive players do. And, Ortiz is primarily a DH, so yes, Jeter is a better defensive player than him. Great point!
And, to use the words "mentally retarded" in this context is childish and insensitive.
I can't imagine even the Yankee fans coming to your defense here.
Jete's hitting .444 with the bases juiced, .390 with RISP, .388 with RISP and 2 outs, and .355 with runners on. With men on and 2 outs he's batting .380, with a man on third and less than 2 outs Jete's batting .467.
<< <i>
Those ain't run of the mill numbers. All this talk of "yeah, throw in an average shortstop and you have the same team" is pure bunk.
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<< <i>If anyone really honestly thinks that you could take Jeter out of the lineup and replace him with your run of the mill shortstop and that the yankees wouldn't skip a beat, there can be only 2 theory's why someone would think that
A: they don't know sh*t about the game of baseball B: they are mentally retarded >>
I think you are the one with mental deficiencies, clown.
<< <i>The things he does day in and day out makes other players look like bush leaguers. How many times do you see "Manny" or "Big Papi" hustle down to first on a ground out? - Never, When do you see Manny or Big Papi drop down a sac bunt to move the runner over? Never >>
If I saw Manny or Ortiz drop down a bunt I'd kick them in the heads myself - they don't have to hit that way, they can crush the ball (unlike that lady playing short in NY).
<< <i>When do you see Manny or Big Papi head into the stands to grab a pop up - Never >>
Uhm Ortiz is a DH, Manny is a left fielder...how many times are they going to have the opportunity to do that?
<< <i>Now, i like Big Papi as a DH, and he's as clutch as they come, but he's not a complete ballplayer, if he was he'd be at first or in one of the corners in the outfield. >>
DH is a position just like any other - and Ortiz plays that position as well as anyone ever has. Don't hate the player, hate the DH rule.
<< <i>And Manny is basically worthless other than his tremendous bat and hitting ability, how many times has Jeter snuck off behind the sign in Fenway and missed a pitch in a game? Never, Manny - at least once on tape. >>
How many times has Manny ran over to center, called off the center fielder, let the ball drop, and, instead of playing the dropped ball, glared at the center fielder? Never, but jeter's done it at least once on tape with Arod.
<< <i>The Jeter bias is amazing >>
You're right...the jeter jock sniffers would have you believe he's the best player in baseball (he 'knows' how to win!) but those with a grasp on reality realize he's an above average shortstop who hits for good average and little to no power.
The hater is back. Looks like you still reaching for straws knocking on a guy who kept his position and has shown he can get it done with the pressure on, unlike your mancrush Errod.
"DH is a position just like any other - and Ortiz plays that position as well as anyone ever has. Don't hate the player, hate the DH rule."
You weren't saying this last season.
" How many times has Manny ran over to center, called off the center fielder, let the ball drop, and, instead of playing the dropped ball, glared at the center fielder? Never, but jeter's done it at least once on tape with Arod."
Like the CF, the SS has "rights" over those who play besides them on plays. Just like a catcher does over the corner infielders. Errod didn't fall back and who made the error? Errod, of course.
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Comments
Letting El Duque go is something I will never forgive Torre for. I dont know the full story behind why he didnt like him, but I thought there was something said about the two regarding their pitching strategy and philosophy. To me it seemed Torre had a problem with El Duque questioning him when being taken out of games. I dont know about anyone else, but Id prefer a pitcher with the heart and the balls to want to stay in the game and get himself out of jams.
On another note, I heard on the FAN this morning they are still in talks regarding Abreu. It was mentioned the Yankees were trying to put together a package that would include Proctor.
-- Yogi Berra
I have read all about the Abreu thing too. I will $hit myself if the Yankees trade Proctor. I refuse to go nuts unless something actually happens .....
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Mark Mulder rookies
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1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Looking for Topps rookies as well.
References:
GregM13
VintageJeff
<< <i>great answer Ax ..... so, do you watch the M's on a regular basis? Dish? I grew up with the Yankees, Giants, etc and could NOT imagine rooting for a team from a different region from where I grew up. I "honestly" do not understand how that is possible. But I do know that there are TONS of fans who root for teams from far away. Baseball, football, basketball, hockey .... all of them. >>
I watch as many games as possible - the wonders of directtv. I also catch a lot of games on ESPN's gamecast...they do a great job in presenting a game without actually showing any action. Hard to explain without actually seeing it.
<< <i>edited to say that .... Brian, you almost seem human with your last post in this thread. Are you putting me on?
Not putting you on, just feeling your pain.
<< <i>Ahhhhhhh, vacation and afternoon baseball.... what a great combination... My predictions? Some early runs off Marcum, 6 solid for Lidle, a couple of hits for Jeter, a HR for Giambi. >>
well, I was a little off on the Jeter hits (he only had one) but the other predictions were pretty solid................
-- Yogi Berra
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>Great rebound from being one hit today. Abreu has been a hit machine since the trade. Paplebon blows a save and in just about 10 days the Yankees have gained 5 1/2 games on the Red Sox. The beat goes on ... >>
Dear Yanks fans:
You're welcome. We couldn't bear paying Abreu's salary anymore anyway.
Sincerely,
Phillies fans (and one Phillies/Yanks fan)
-- Yogi Berra
Mark Mulder rookies
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Bri, You talk very fondly of El Duque who has made a living taking partial seasons OFF in order to be the way he has been in the post season for certainly mysterious ailments. Now, Mussina has not been part of a championship like El Duque has but I think you are nit picking with him. Mussina is not a head case who gives his best effort every time out. Thats all I can ask for .....
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
In many ways I think Mussina is a head case. The guy is obviously a smart man, dont get me wrong, but i think that has gotten him into trouble over the years. Too much thinking can be a bad thing sometimes.
Granted, I may indeed be nitpicking at Mussina, but its nothing new. I had all the same things to say about him before the season when the debate came up, and I wont waver now. He carried the team the first half, but somehow, some way, I kinda expected a collapse somewhere along the line for him. I just dont envision him as a big game guy when it matters most. And I would gladly take El Duque over him any day come postseason.
BTW Dan, how was the air show ? We had alot to do around here and couldnt make it down. Let me know how it went, Im sure it was killer.
-- Yogi Berra
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I wouldn't.
Especially with the strong FA class of quality pitchers available this winter.
Photos of the 2006 Boston Massacre
<< <i>If Mussina falters for the remainder of the season, the Yankees might not pick up his $17mil option.
I wouldn't.
Especially with the strong FA class of quality pitchers available this winter. >>
haha funny to see the yankee 'fans' turn on the guy who's been without a doubt their best pitcher all year.
And wow, Lidle looked sharp tonight!
3 2/3rd, 5 runs, 9 hits. Great pickup!
Whats up with all the staches?
I thought i was watching a 70's porno flick when i saw Giambi and Damon batting yesterday, yikes!
Lucky for him Ortiz is gone for the season. Manny's had a better season than Jeter, too.
<< <i>Ax, I couldn't disagree more. It's Jeter's super human effort and sheer ability to win that makes him the best shortstop in MLB. >>
hahaha I always love this from jeter jock sniffers 'he knows how to win!' Come on now, are you serious?
<< <i>I know, I know, some others may have better "numbers" but like tonight's game illustrates, there is NO ONE like Jeter when it comes to making things happen, both with the bat & with the glove. What Jeter did tonight he does ALL THE TIME, which is why Yankee fans are ready to put up his plaque in monument park right now. It's really crazy if you watch him a lot, you just know he's gonna come thru when you need him. To me, the only other guy who could be AL MVP is Ortiz, but with the Sox slipping in the standings, his heath issues (hope the big guy gets better) and the fact he's a DH, I think we may be looking at Jeter as AL MVP. >>
I would think guys like Mauer would be more valuable, because where would the Twins be without his bat this year? The yankees, on the other hand, would have a roster full of all stars driving in a ton of runs with or without jeter. I'd put Dye over jeter, too. Hell, even Thome.
Thome is on base just as often as jeter (identical OBP through today), scoring more runs, with three times as many HRs.
Dye has similar OBP (.390 vs. .413), and, too, is killing him in power numbers and RBI.
Manny is besting him in OBP (.442 vs. .413), again with much, much better power numbers and RBI.
Jete's hitting .444 with the bases juiced, .390 with RISP, .388 with RISP and 2 outs, and .355 with runners on. With men on and 2 outs he's batting .380, with a man on third and less than 2 outs Jete's batting .467.
Matsui and Sheff were out; Arod didn't have an Arod-typical season, and Jete stepped up. A month ago I wouldn't have put up such of a discussion. But look what has happened, the Yankees are now UP by 8.0 games when just a month ago the buzz was the NY wouldn't make the playoffs AT ALL.
So what shortstops to you consider average? Freddy Sanchez? Carlos Guillen? Sanchez is really the only guy who matches closely with Jete in numbers. I wouldn't consider any of the guys I listed as "average".
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<< <i>Matsui and Sheff were out; Arod didn't have an Arod-typical season, and Jete stepped up. A month ago I wouldn't have put up such of a discussion. But look what has happened, the Yankees are now UP by 8.0 games when just a month ago the buzz was the NY wouldn't make the playoffs AT ALL. >>
Boston imploding had more to do with this than the yankees.
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<< <i>True, Boston did implode. But let's not discount that 5 game series in Fenway. Any other counterpoints on Jete(come on, is Freddy Sanchez the "average" SS?) >>
What do you want me to say about Jeter? That there's a handful of guys who have had better years that are contributing more to their team's success? That if you took Jeter's numbers away and replaced with a mediocre bat (say batting .250 with 8 HRs and 30 RBI) the yankees would still have a sizeable lead? That the hitters I mentioned previously have had more impact on their team's successes than Jeter has?
Look at the numbers Thome is putting up. Or Dye. Mauer.
All of those guys are on teams either going to the playoffs or going to be there until the very end. While I don't agree that a player has to be on a postseason bound team to win, I can understand the argument.
How about a player like Carlos Guillen? He's on the best team in baseball (a team most picked for another cellar run), similar OBP to Jeter (.390 vs .413) but better power numbers. How is he not an MVP candidate?
I would think a hitter like Guillen to be more 'valuable' than Jeter because without a bat like that, there's not a lineup of all stars behind him.
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<< <i>I also mentioned Carlos Guillen. While he has very similar numbers, he's situational numbers are nowhere near Jetes. >>
Jeter's had a nice year, but he's not the MVP. Too many other more qualified candidates who have been more important to their team's successes than Jeter.
<< <i>Jeter spanks it >>
<< <i>It's Jeter's super human effort and sheer ability to win >>
I can't decide which one made me laugh more. Good stuff, there...
Ax basically covered all the key points about the MVP candidates, but I realize facts often don't matter to the Jeter crowd. You have to acknowledge his good season, but right now, Ortiz, Manny, Jermaine Dye (if not Ortiz, this guy gets my vote), Mauer, Thome, all have had better seasons statistically, and seasons that are more in line with the definition of an MVP. Take Jeter out of NY, put another SS in there, and I doubt the Yanks would miss a beat.
<< <i>he's situational numbers are nowhere near Jetes >>
Could you explain this? What situations are you referring to? Last time we had our monthly "Jeter is overrated" thread, I thought we established, quite definitively, that his numbers don't vary much at all from situation to situation, nor from regular season to post-season.
<< <i>
<< <i>he's situational numbers are nowhere near Jetes >>
Could you explain this? What situations are you referring to? Last time we had our monthly "Jeter is overrated" thread, I thought we established, quite definitively, that his numbers don't vary much at all from situation to situation, nor from regular season to post-season. >>
Jete's hitting .444 with the bases juiced, .390 with RISP, .388 with RISP and 2 outs, and .355 with runners on. With men on and 2 outs he's batting .380, with a man on third and less than 2 outs Jete's batting .467.
Check those against Carlos Guillens, the only SS I've seen with nearly identical numbers is Sanchez of Pittsburgh.
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<< <i>
Check those against Carlos Guillens, the only SS I've seen with nearly identical numbers is Sanchez of Pittsburgh. >>
I think you are missing the basic premise of my debate (which ct summed up nicely):
If you took a mediocre, average shortstop, and stuck him in place of Jeter, the yankees would essentially be in the same exact spot as they are now: leading the division and going to the playoffs. Take away any of the guys I mentioned, and their teams would be in a world of hurt.
That, to me, is the definition of MVP.
Hey, 80s, whats a 'BARRELL'? Second, who exactly are you trying to insult here?
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<< <i>It's not an easy place to play as 99% of us fans know.... >>
Where was this talk of a 'meltdown' last year as he was winning an MVP, or the year before? Hmmm? Perhaps he's just having a bad year, and the supposed 'pressure' of playing in NY has NOTHING to do with it? MAYBE?
And he dares to lump Arod in with those other clowns? What an insult. This guy should be hung up by this thumbnails for the vultures to feed upon. What an absolute joke.
<< <i> Who by your definition is a "mediocre, average shortstop"? So your saying without Jete they'd be in the same place as they are now? Come on, I think your seriously discounting Jete's value to the Yankees. For a time the Blue Jays were breathing down the neck of the Yanks for second place in the AL East. Without Jeter the Yankees wouldn't be in the lead in the AL East, and would be looking up at 2 teams in the wild card race. >>
Whoa whoa when were the blue jays ever in serious contention ahead of the red sox for second place? Are you kidding me? And without jeter they'd be behind the imploding sox, and behind both teams in the central for the wild card?
You really, truly honestly believe that?
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A: they don't know sh*t about the game of baseball
B: they are mentally retarded
The things he does day in and day out makes other players look like bush leaguers. How many times do you see "Manny" or "Big Papi" hustle down to first on a ground out? - Never, When do you see Manny or Big Papi drop down a sac bunt to move the runner over? Never
When do you see Manny or Big Papi head into the stands to grab a pop up - Never
Now, i like Big Papi as a DH, and he's as clutch as they come, but he's not a complete ballplayer, if he was he'd be at first or in one of the corners in the outfield.
And Manny is basically worthless other than his tremendous bat and hitting ability, how many times has Jeter snuck off behind the sign in Fenway and missed a pitch in a game? Never, Manny - at least once on tape.
The Jeter bias is amazing, anyone who actually watches baseball would realize just how special a player he really is.
B: they are mentally retarded
As far as our resident Jeter expert I would venture to say both. LOL
Sheesh....
<< <i>If anyone really honestly thinks that you could take Jeter out of the lineup and replace him with your run of the mill shortstop and that the yankees wouldn't skip a beat, there can be only 2 theory's why someone would think that
A: they don't know sh*t about the game of baseball
B: they are mentally retarded
The things he does day in and day out makes other players look like bush leaguers. How many times do you see "Manny" or "Big Papi" hustle down to first on a ground out? - Never, When do you see Manny or Big Papi drop down a sac bunt to move the runner over? Never
When do you see Manny or Big Papi head into the stands to grab a pop up - Never
Now, i like Big Papi as a DH, and he's as clutch as they come, but he's not a complete ballplayer, if he was he'd be at first or in one of the corners in the outfield.
And Manny is basically worthless other than his tremendous bat and hitting ability, how many times has Jeter snuck off behind the sign in Fenway and missed a pitch in a game? Never, Manny - at least once on tape.
The Jeter bias is amazing, anyone who actually watches baseball would realize just how special a player he really is. >>
gfb, you have got to be kidding me.
Manny is "worthless"? You latch onto one little thing that is so insignificant in the grand scheme of things (he does run behind the Monster once in a while like many players who have played left field in Boston have always done during breaks in the game, and yes once a pitch was thrown - sound the alarm!!!) and say he's worthless? One of the best RBI producers in baseball history, and he's worthless. Okay, you are not exactly an astute baseball observer, this we can see.
And, you really want Manny and Ortiz to bunt? Are you insane, man? You clearly are the one with the lack of baseball knowledge, if you actually believe that is a good strategy - but, I guess you don't watch the Sox much. Big Papi has bunted many times, against the shift they employ against him, and he even has several hits this way. But, when you have two of the best power hitters in the game today in your lineup, I can't imagine anyone thinking that they should be playing small ball and bunting runners over. Does Sheffield do that? What an absolutely ridiculous concept.
Diving in to the stands is a sign of greatness, now? Well, when you play left field like Ramirez does, you don't have the same opportunity to go crowd diving, but he clearly fields his position. The average fan eats those kind of plays that Jeter made when he dove into the stands up like halloween candy, but while it was a nice play, it really doesn't mean jack in this context. I've seen Manny dive for balls hit to him as well, so what? That's what good defensive players do. And, Ortiz is primarily a DH, so yes, Jeter is a better defensive player than him. Great point!
And, to use the words "mentally retarded" in this context is childish and insensitive.
I can't imagine even the Yankee fans coming to your defense here.
<< <i>
Jete's hitting .444 with the bases juiced, .390 with RISP, .388 with RISP and 2 outs, and .355 with runners on. With men on and 2 outs he's batting .380, with a man on third and less than 2 outs Jete's batting .467.
<< <i>
Those ain't run of the mill numbers. All this talk of "yeah, throw in an average shortstop and you have the same team" is pure bunk.
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<< <i>If anyone really honestly thinks that you could take Jeter out of the lineup and replace him with your run of the mill shortstop and that the yankees wouldn't skip a beat, there can be only 2 theory's why someone would think that
A: they don't know sh*t about the game of baseball
B: they are mentally retarded
>>
I think you are the one with mental deficiencies, clown.
<< <i>The things he does day in and day out makes other players look like bush leaguers. How many times do you see "Manny" or "Big Papi" hustle down to first on a ground out? - Never, When do you see Manny or Big Papi drop down a sac bunt to move the runner over? Never >>
If I saw Manny or Ortiz drop down a bunt I'd kick them in the heads myself - they don't have to hit that way, they can crush the ball (unlike that lady playing short in NY).
<< <i>When do you see Manny or Big Papi head into the stands to grab a pop up - Never >>
Uhm Ortiz is a DH, Manny is a left fielder...how many times are they going to have the opportunity to do that?
<< <i>Now, i like Big Papi as a DH, and he's as clutch as they come, but he's not a complete ballplayer, if he was he'd be at first or in one of the corners in the outfield. >>
DH is a position just like any other - and Ortiz plays that position as well as anyone ever has. Don't hate the player, hate the DH rule.
<< <i>And Manny is basically worthless other than his tremendous bat and hitting ability, how many times has Jeter snuck off behind the sign in Fenway and missed a pitch in a game? Never, Manny - at least once on tape. >>
How many times has Manny ran over to center, called off the center fielder, let the ball drop, and, instead of playing the dropped ball, glared at the center fielder? Never, but jeter's done it at least once on tape with Arod.
<< <i>The Jeter bias is amazing >>
You're right...the jeter jock sniffers would have you believe he's the best player in baseball (he 'knows' how to win!) but those with a grasp on reality realize he's an above average shortstop who hits for good average and little to no power.
The hater is back. Looks like you still reaching for straws knocking on a guy who kept his position and has shown he can get it done with the pressure on, unlike your mancrush Errod.
"DH is a position just like any other - and Ortiz plays that position as well as anyone ever has. Don't hate the player, hate the DH rule."
You weren't saying this last season.
" How many times has Manny ran over to center, called off the center fielder, let the ball drop, and, instead of playing the dropped ball, glared at the center fielder? Never, but jeter's done it at least once on tape with Arod."
Like the CF, the SS has "rights" over those who play besides them on plays. Just like a catcher does over the corner infielders. Errod didn't fall back and who made the error? Errod, of course.
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