Home World & Ancient Coins Forum

Mexico GOLD 1959 20 Pesos Restrike???

I know this might be a very specific question, but.....

What markings distinguish a 1959 "restrike" Mexico Gold 20 Pesos (mintage of 1,158,414) from an "original" 1959 Mexico 20 Pesos (MIntage of 13,000)?

Any help will be appreciated.

Should NGC or PCGS be able to determine difference and note it on the slab label?

Comments

  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,194 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good questions tonight. And tough.

    Once again, I'm stumped. Betcha get answered, though.

    Explore collections of lordmarcovan on CollecOnline, management, safe-keeping, sharing and valuation solution for art piece and collectibles.
  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,506 ✭✭✭✭✭
    *shrug*

    I own a 1959 Viente Pesos, but until this post I didn't know that they had a re-strike.
  • ranshdowranshdow Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭✭
    I know this thread is an antique, but I have something to add as I've been wondering this myself recently.

    I have two veinte pesos coins, both dated 1959. They are strikingly different:

    The first one is green-gold in color, satiny luster, weighs 16.71g, and the edge lettering is upright when the obverse faces up. The E's in the edge lettering also have what I would describe as an underbite, where the lower serif of the E juts out past the upper E.

    The second one is paler in color, has what looks like massive die polish lines on the obverse (I'm not positive as I have only a 5X loupe), weighs 16.62g, and has edge lettering that is upright when the reverse is face-up. The E's in the edge letters have roughly even serifs, and the diagonals of the N's have an odd cut or tapered look to them. The rim edges also sometimes have what I'd call a "scalloped" look to them. On the reverse, some of the letters in "Estados Unidos Mexicanos" have the "weak/fatty" look a' la Fivas. I might be imagining it, but I think I see a blem or two as well- I'd need a higher mag loupe to confirm.

    Sorry, no pictures, haven't gotten a copy stand yet..

    The two coins have the same thickness and diameter as best as I can tell without calipers of the right size.

    So for coin two- is it a restrike, or a counterfeit?
  • I have always wondered what are the main differences (if any) between them.


    ...any one else???






    Edited to ask for the differences about the fifty pesos as well.

    ~
  • stevebensteveben Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bumped to see if anyone knows the answers. i just picked two up. mine have the edge lettering right side up when the obv is up. both have a noticeable die mark of some sort where the o is in pesos. it's almost exactly the same. hmmmm....
  • TheBigBTheBigB Posts: 942
    My Krause book says that the restrikes are most likely dated 1959.

    I don't know of any other diagnostics.
  • Silvereagle82Silvereagle82 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭
    Since my original post; I have never been able to find any definitive information.
  • MorganMan94MorganMan94 Posts: 1,330 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Does anyone know 7 years later?

  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,922 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2018 6:59PM

    Both PCGS and NGC slab "restrike" 1959s (and indicate it on the inserts).

    If they can tell a coin is a restrike, it's logical they can tell if a coin is not a restrike.

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭

    I don't think I have ever seen a non restrike 1959.....every slabbed 1959 Ive seen says restrike......the mystery remains unsolved....

    Successful Buying and Selling transactions with:

    Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
  • MorganMan94MorganMan94 Posts: 1,330 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mkman123 said:
    I don't think I have ever seen a non restrike 1959.....every slabbed 1959 Ive seen says restrike......the mystery remains unsolved....

    PCGS shows 57 graded, I am sure what I have is a restrike I would just like to know the difference for my personal knowledge.

  • PatARPatAR Posts: 347 ✭✭✭

    The 2015 Krause #478 lists the gold 20 pesos 1959 with estimate 13000 struck followed on the next line by a note discussing the restrikes. I find it interesting that the pricing for even the coins that Krause lists as original 1959 pieces is simply bullion value even in uncirculated (ie they don't list higher values for this issue of 13000 pieces as they do for the prior years).

    The 1976 edition of Friedberg lists #171 20 pesos 1917-1921, 59 and separately lists #171R as 1959 Restrike. This source does not provide any mintage estimates or other detail information.

    Interestingly, the specialists Don and Lois Bailey discuss this coin in both Volume 1 and Volume 2 of their Mexican Money. In both instances they make no mention of a 1959 original issue nor any characteristics that might distinguish them from restrikes.

    As suggested by @ranshdow it would seem sensible that coins restruck from original dies that had been in storage for many years may exhibit die polish lines and related degradation. Even in the event that the later issues are actually from newer dies, there should similarly be die characteristics to guide us. Unfortunately, without historical detail of this particular issue we can only speculate. I do hope a specialist in this era/series will chime in as I view this and other gold Mexico restrike issues with interest.

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am not convinced that any of the 1959 coins was actually minted that year. As late as 2010 the Diario de la Federación (in charge of publishing the new laws in Mexico) published that Congress authorised the Government to keep on minting these coins with no mention to any limits. That said, I emailed the Mexican Mint (under the access to information law) asking for information. I wouldn't hold my breath, but maybe we will be able to figure it out.

  • Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 11,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for sharing the information !!! :)

    Timbuk3
  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2018 7:10PM

    I don't have what is possibly the 'correct' book at my fingertips, but my gut feeling is that the Mexican 1959 20 peso gold 'restrikes' rather quickly followed the 1959 'originals'. I don't think that there was a huge amount of time between the originals and the restrikes. While I might be wrong (see third and fourth paragraphs), the gold market was very hot in the 1960s, the demand was there.

    My copy of Donald J. Hoppe's "How to Invest in Gold Coins" (1970 edition) states that the mintage of the 1959 Azteca 20 Peso Gold was 12,500. However, this book does not value that date at any premium whatsoever over earlier dates between 1917 and 1921 with much higher mintages. The author specifically notes this curious lack of a premium. He does not seem to consider the possibility that there was no premium because it might have already been restruck.

    People need to remember too, that the United States Treasury Department had an 'Office of Domestic Gold and Silver Operations' which could grant licenses to import gold coins minted between 1934 and 1959 (later expanded to include a few coins dated between 1960 and 1964). There was a detailed list of 'eligible' coins. This office could grant such licenses upon application, but they were not required to do so.

    At one time, the 1959 Azteca 20 peso gold coins was on the 'eligible' list, probably because the 'original' mintage number was so slight. The last copy of this 'eligible' list that I saw published was dated May 1969 and it still included the Mexican 1959 20 Peso Gold (and that was the only post 1933 Mexican coin included as 'eligible'). This perhaps indirectly argues that the restrike of this date didn't take place for ten years, but isn't any kind of conclusive argument. ODGSO disappeared after 1974.

    Last year, APMEX was advertising a 1959 20 peso gold restrike that they claimed were from entirely new plasters and die work. They were asking some premium for the 'new' coin. IIRC, it was in a PCGS slab. They seem to have sold out this 'new' thingie.

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2018 9:25PM

    Numista says the vast bulk of these gold restrikes were made between 1960 and 1971 and they cite ATS as their source. Looked over there and that's what it says.

    Nothing on how to spot an original, however.

    Odd that the U.S. Treasury didn't change their list, however.

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PatAR said:
    The 2015 Krause #478 lists the gold 20 pesos 1959 with estimate 13000 struck followed on the next line by a note discussing the restrikes. I find it interesting that the pricing for even the coins that Krause lists as original 1959 pieces is simply bullion value even in uncirculated (ie they don't list higher values for this issue of 13000 pieces as they do for the prior years).

    The 1976 edition of Friedberg lists #171 20 pesos 1917-1921, 59 and separately lists #171R as 1959 Restrike. This source does not provide any mintage estimates or other detail information.

    Interestingly, the specialists Don and Lois Bailey discuss this coin in both Volume 1 and Volume 2 of their Mexican Money. In both instances they make no mention of a 1959 original issue nor any characteristics that might distinguish them from restrikes.

    As suggested by @ranshdow it would seem sensible that coins restruck from original dies that had been in storage for many years may exhibit die polish lines and related degradation. Even in the event that the later issues are actually from newer dies, there should similarly be die characteristics to guide us. Unfortunately, without historical detail of this particular issue we can only speculate. I do hope a specialist in this era/series will chime in as I view this and other gold Mexico restrike issues with interest.

    I was going to say the same thing regarding the Baileys. I just recently managed to snag a copy of the expensive Volume 2 that covers these among other coins. They also mention a restrike 1945 2-1/2 pesos but the treatment is exactly the same as the 1959 veinte pesos, no mention at all of originals or differentiating characteristics.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No answer, so as I said, I will not hold my breath...

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well, much to my surprise, I received an answer form the Mexican Mint (Casa de Moneda de México). They told me that in 1959, 13000 coins were minted; 1960-71, 1’158,414; and 95,300 between 2000-2013, nothing more recent. No idea of the number of dies utilized for the date. So the numbers are much higher than discussed earlier in the post.

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2018 11:02AM

    I just now noticed this footnote in Don and Lois Bailey's volume 2 of Encyclopedia of Mexican Coins, under the 1947 fifty pesos, which shows a mintage figure of 3,975,654: "Some 309,000 coins were originally struck in 1947, followed by 3,975,654 restrikes the same year. The originals and the restrikes are indistinguishable. The mint produced restrikes again in the 1990s and 2000s; these can be distinguished from the 1947 strikes by their prooflike and matte finishes (respectively)."

    It it curious that the Baileys list only the 1947 restrikes, not the originals, with a price and the restrike mintage figure only; I guess they assume that since the originals and restrikes cannot be differentiated, the assumption must be that any coin found is likely to be the much-commoner restrike variety.

    Personally I'm not overly fond of the 20 pesos gold design anyway; that Aztec Calendar design is much too cluttery for my taste. OTOH, I love the 50 pesos gold design!

    I also love the Caballito one peso silver design. Curiously, at the big Chattanooga show I just returned from, I could not find a single Caballito in any kind of decent collectible grade (nice AU or better).

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2018 11:16AM

    @Abuelo said:
    Well, much to my surprise, I received an answer form the Mexican Mint (Casa de Moneda de México). They told me that in 1959, 13000 coins were minted; 1960-71, 1’158,414; and 95,300 between 2000-2013, nothing more recent. No idea of the number of dies utilized for the date. So the numbers are much higher than discussed earlier in the post.

    These numbers are found in many places on the internet, and it is entirely possible that your correspondent at the Casa de Moneda simply looked them up on the computer for you.

    Nothing new about the numbers you post, they are right in line with what was already known.

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ^Well, then, they have to be correct!

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The same information is printed out, almost word-for-word, in the SCWC.

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillDugan1959 said:

    @Abuelo said:
    Well, much to my surprise, I received an answer form the Mexican Mint (Casa de Moneda de México). They told me that in 1959, 13000 coins were minted; 1960-71, 1’158,414; and 95,300 between 2000-2013, nothing more recent. No idea of the number of dies utilized for the date. So the numbers are much higher than discussed earlier in the post.

    These numbers are found in many places on the internet, and it is entirely possible that your correspondent at the Casa de Moneda simply looked them up on the computer for you.

    Nothing new about the numbers you post, they are right in line with what was already known.

    Maybe, or maybe is the official mintage. In any event that is what they told me. Thanks.

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The numbers were not in question, and that was NOT the original question in this thread. The OP had these correct mintage figures. The same figures were/are available in half a dozen places, maybe more. Those numbers are reasonably the same in most places.

    Since there are about 95+ 'restrikes' for every 'original', how do you tell an original?

    Excellent question.

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Silvereagle82 said:
    I know this might be a very specific question, but.....

    What markings distinguish a 1959 "restrike" Mexico Gold 20 Pesos (mintage of 1,158,414) from an "original" 1959 Mexico 20 Pesos (MIntage of 13,000)?

    Any help will be appreciated.

    Should NGC or PCGS be able to determine difference and note it on the slab label?

    In a new communication from the mint they tell me that they do not have an exact registry of the number of dies employed with the 1959 (or they just do not want to tell me). However, there is an interesting fact. Coins minted before 1971 were made in the "old" mint in Mexico City, and as they told me "punches were made under near artesanal conditions" whereas posterior restrikes were made "under the most modern technology in the mint at San Luis Potosi". Therefore, very likely it is possible to differentiate the coins minted before 71 and after 2000 based just on the quality of the devices of the coin. But as how to differentiate the ones between 59 and 71, or the number of varieties, no information was provided even when was my original question to them. If they contact me again with more information, I will gladly pass it to the group.

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Shouldda come to my table a little earlier! I pulled one from my case because it sold on ebay!

    @giorgio11 said:
    I also love the Caballito one peso silver design. Curiously, at the big Chattanooga show I just returned from, I could not find a single Caballito in any kind of decent collectible grade (nice AU or better).

    Kind regards,

    George

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:
    Shouldda come to my table a little earlier! I pulled one from my case because it sold on ebay!

    @giorgio11 said:
    I also love the Caballito one peso silver design. Curiously, at the big Chattanooga show I just returned from, I could not find a single Caballito in any kind of decent collectible grade (nice AU or better).

    La historia de mi vida.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    APMEX was recently offering this - the exact meaning of the label, I am uncertain.

    APMEX had six, sold them all according to the eBay counter. The first couple may have sold at a higher than normal premium.

  • I know I am reviving an old thread, but I think I might have some interesting information to share on this issue. I have recently started stacking gold 20 peso coins and out of curiosity I have also been scouring the internet for as much information as possible on these coins.

    So far, I have acquired a 1918, a 1921 overdate (not sure of it is a 1921/20 or 1921/11) and a 1959. All three were purchased in local coin stores in Mexico, un-slabbed. I notice two things that are different between my coins. First, the color/luster is slightly different between each of the three coins. My local coin dealer says this is common with Centenarios as well, and thinks it is due to differences in copper and silver content used in the alloy. I disagree, there is absolutely no evidence online that silver is used in the mix, only copper. After researching this, it seems the copper in the alloy (which is reactive, unlike gold) changes color over time differently when exposed to different levels of humidity (Mexico has very humid as well as very dry places, plus the age of the coins varies a lot between the originals and the 1959 dated coins, some of which were minted pretty recently).

    More interestingly, the font size for the edge lettering is smaller on the 1918 and 1921 compared to the 1959. At first, this struck me as odd, and I was unable to find a single reference to this fact online. However, by watching Youtube videos of people showing off their 20 peso gold coins and pausing when the edge lettering is shown, it appears that the 1959's do in fact have slightly larger edge lettering. My local coin dealer here in Mexico has corroborated this observation. Also, the edge lettering for each of the three coins does not align on the circumference of the coin when they have their obverse/reverse designs facing the same direction, and the upright/downright orientation is different on the 1918 and 1921 compared to the 1959 coin. From what I have been able to ascertain, the edge lettering alignment and orientation are never consistent irrespective of the dates, the most reasonable explanation is that the reverse and obverse designs were cast first at the Mexico Mint and the edge lettering was done afterwards with no regard to how it aligns on the coin.

    The font size difference, however, seems very interesting. I wonder if the larger size was used on ALL of the 1959 dated coins, or whether it was used only on the re-strikes? If so, we might finally have a way to differentiate the original 1959 coins from the re-strikes! It did briefly cross my mind that the small/large font size was different when minted at the Mexico City mint vs the San Luis Potosí mint, although this seems unlikely since the output was too large for the 1960-1971 restrikes and the latter more modern ones minted in San Luis Potosí (a piece of information I learned through this thread, actually) for this difference to not have been noticed. However, you would also think it is obvious that the font size is larger on the 1959's compared to the originals minted between 1917 and 1921, and there is no mention of this online! If anybody could produce a 1959 with smaller edge lettering matching the originals, this evidence would support my theory. Only 13,000 coins dated 1959 were actually minted that year, while the total output for coins with that date is 1,266,714 or 1,362,714 according to different sources. 1/100 coins being a non-restrike 1959 is a small enough number to maybe go unnoticed.

    These observations are especially interesting after reading what ranshdow posted in this thread in 2009:

    "I have two veinte pesos coins, both dated 1959. They are strikingly different:

    The first one is green-gold in color, satiny luster, weighs 16.71g, and the edge lettering is upright when the obverse faces up. The E's in the edge lettering also have what I would describe as an underbite, where the lower serif of the E juts out past the upper E.

    The second one is paler in color, has what looks like massive die polish lines on the obverse (I'm not positive as I have only a 5X loupe), weighs 16.62g, and has edge lettering that is upright when the reverse is face-up. The E's in the edge letters have roughly even serifs, and the diagonals of the N's have an odd cut or tapered look to them."

    This seems to show that not all 1959 dated coins have identical edge lettering, even if there is no mention of differing font size.

    As to ranshdow's concerns that one of the coins might be a counterfeit, I personally highly doubt that. I have been unable to find any information at all online on counterfeit 20 peso gold coins in either English or Spanish (apart from medallions that borrow the design, sold on ebay and mercadolibre for cheap).

    It seems it is a great coin to buy or even stack due to this apparent lack of counterfeits, unlike the Centenario, which is a commonly counterfeited coin due to its fame. All three of my coins appear to be, at the very least, genuine gold, since they all weigh 16.6 g, have identical dimensions and pass the magnet and ping tests. As these coins don't really have much numismatic value, a counterfeit made of real gold would not make too much sense; from the counterfeiter's perspective, a profit could only be easily made by producing counterfeits that don't contain (or contain less) gold.

    As for the mintage outputs, different sources online show different numbers. Most consistently, the number of coins struck seems to be:

    1917 - 852,000
    1918 - 2,831,000
    1919 - 1,094,000
    1920 - 462,000
    1921 - 922,000 (I was not able to find specific numbers for regular and overdate versions for the 1920 and 1921's, just the total output for each year)

    For the 1959's I have found the following:

    1959 - 13,000
    1959 (re-strikes from 1960-1971) - 1,158,414
    1959 (re-strikes from 1996) - 78,000
    1959 (re-strikes from 2000-2017) - 113,300
    1959 (re-strikes from 2000-2013) - 95,300

    Some sources say the total mintage for all years was 6,174,000, while others give this same number for the 1959's only. No idea where this number comes from.

    Abuelo posted in this thread: "Well, much to my surprise, I received an answer form the Mexican Mint (Casa de Moneda de México). They told me that in 1959, 13000 coins were minted; 1960-71, 1’158,414; and 95,300 between 2000-2013, nothing more recent. No idea of the number of dies utilized for the date. So the numbers are much higher than discussed earlier in the post."

    Many sources do not mention the coins struck in 1996 at all. Most sources have the number 113,300 for the modern restrikes, but if Abuelo is re-laying accurate information from la Casa de Moneda, then it seems the actual number was 95,300. His post was from 2018, so it would stand to reason that if the Mexican Mint itself says that 2013 was the last year these were minted and not 2017, they of all institutions would know. (Although, both numbers ending in 300 seems suspicious.. maybe 95,300 were minted up to 2013 and another 18,000 were stuck between 2014 and 2017?? And whoever answered that email was relaying information that hadn't been updated?)

    All in all, very interesting but confusing information! Any thoughts??

  • I did not put in my comments correctly . Click on my post above ,atweap725 .

Sign In or Register to comment.