1920-D Buffalo: Is it AU, or MS with the mushiest strike extant?

gyocomgd

Pretty darned clean and no rub on the hip, which is where I look first. The tail is a mess, but Lange says it's inherently weak on these. So is it AU, or a rather wretched MS?

Elcontador

With a weakly struck coin, you have to look for luster breaks to determine what's wear and what's strike. On a real Unc., you shouldn't find any. If you see them, you have wear.

gyocomgd

<< <i>With a weakly struck coin, you have to look for luster breaks to determine what's wear and what's strike. On a real Unc., you shouldn't find any. If you see them, you have wear. >>



There are luster breaks aplenty, but Shamika was talking about compressed dies (which I don't really understand) and the dullish, mottled, sandblasted look that results. I'm wondering if the breaks could be from something other than wear--again, I don't see classic rub on the hip and thigh.

LickThoseStamps

There appears to be wear on the Indian's cheekbone, braid and hair.

cladking

If wear isn't on the high points then it's not worn.

This one looks like it could be unc but one really needs to see it in hand usually.

jom

Just look at the upper hip of the Buff. It seems "rounded" in the picture but if it's plateau'd then it's AU.

This isn't a horrible strike by any means...just a well worn die.

jom

LincolnCentMan

I've seen mushier.

Looks AU to me.

David

RonB

I'd say AU also.

-Ron

yellowjacket

This is the problem with grading Buffaloes. You often get "luster breaks" on the high points since Denver often lessened the striking pressure to extend die life. When this occured, the metal flow wouldn't fill the die. When you use a 5x glass, you may see a break in the luster and imperfections in the planchet at the high points since there isn't completre metal flow in the high point areas. To differentiate between wear and weak strike/die errosion is to look at the whole coin to see if there are nicks, minute scratches, dings and the like at other areas of the coin rather than just at the high points.

From the pics, I can't see these problems. The coin "looks" clean and may well be MS. Again, I would want to inspect the coin in hand with a 5x glass.

yj

majorbigtime

A tough call--I wouldn't pay MS money for it.

yellowjacket

Whether you call it AU or MS, you pay what you think it's worth. These boards have discussed enough about nice AU coins pulling better than dog 62 money.

YJ

gyocomgd

<< <i>This is the problem with grading Buffaloes. You often get "luster breaks" on the high points since Denver often lessened the striking pressure to extend die life. When this occured, the metal flow wouldn't fill the die. When you use a 5x glass, you may see a break in the luster and imperfections in the planchet at the high points since there isn't completre metal flow in the high point areas. To differentiate between wear and weak strike/die errosion is to look at the whole coin to see if there are nicks, minute scratches, dings and the like at other areas of the coin rather than just at the high points.

From the pics, I can't see these problems. The coin "looks" clean and may well be MS. Again, I would want to inspect the coin in hand with a 5x glass.

yj >>



Very valuable insight. I'd only emphasize that "the problem" doesn't apply to the entire series, or that the phenomenon is so chronic that it has led to grading frustration on a large scale. I think that, with several exceptions, the problem is peculiar to the Denver mint. In the vast majority of dates/mints, either the strikes were sufficient, the hubs/dies used were sound enough, or the type of luster was so identifiable, that these hairy dillemas don't arise to the point where you need the 5x glass to discern what's going on.
I guess I'm speaking in defense of the series in general. I think Buffalo nickels are very "collectable," not only because the price points for high-AU/low-MS coins are reasonable for most of the years, but because one who is armed with some basic knowledge can proceed with relative safety and make reasonable grading/condition assessments based on a handfull of basic guidelines.

Guy

jdimmick

Nearly impossible to determine from a photo, but I am inclined to say Higher Au grade than MS.

intocoins

MS coin all the way. Luster looks entact and pretty much mark free, Just a weak strike. I have seen much worse .

sinin1

you can see lighter areas with less or no luster - but could be waek strike and just seeing original planchet


I would need to see under a dissecting scope to determine wear or weak strike

nwcs

You should still be able to tell between original planchet texture and wear. Original planchet would still be bright (if not lustrous) and not dull. It also won't be flat but lightly rounded.

coinkat

Technical grade is 58 and a market grade might be MS but that is a tough call. 58 is likely

TorinoCobra71

I would guess that it is UNC also. Just a weak mushy strike as you stated!

TorinoCobra71

yellowjacket

Guy,

I agree with you all the way. Buffs are my favorite series. One should become familiar with which dates/mints come weakly or strongly struck. My observations spoke mainly about Denver but could be applied to some San Francisco issues as well. Lange speaks about this at length in his popular book on Buffaloes.

YJ

mgoodm3

AU

BillJones

You can't tell for sure with a photo, but the discoloration on the high points, I'd lean toward AU, not Unc.

yellowjacket

I have two 1924-D PCGS Buffaloes, one AU 58 and the other MS 63. To look a them side by side it is a tough call which is better; they both look the same. When I use a 5x glass, I can tell easily. I have made enough mistakes buying impulsively w/o using a glass that I will borrow one, if I am without one, before buying...especially a raw coin...since the stakes are too high.

YJ

yellowjacket

I have two 1924-D PCGS Buffs, one graded AU 58 and the other MS 63. To look at them side by side, it is a tough call which is better. If you use a 5x glass, it is easy to see the diference. I have made enough mistakes buying without using a glass that I will now ask to borrow one if I don't have one with me.

YJ

yellowjacket

Sorry about the redundancy!!!

cape

guy, beleive it or not this is a very good strike for the date! its hard to tell from the image but i really dont see any friction, just striations from the dies ,therefore i think this coin could be classified as a low mint state example.

carl

<< <i>Just look at the upper hip of the Buff. It seems "rounded" in the picture but if it's plateau'd then it's AU.
jom >>


May have just been copied from an elderly Buffalo.

carl

<< <i>There appears to be wear on the Indian's cheekbone, braid and hair. >>


He was in many wars and may have even been at the Little Big Horn. That would have put wear on anyone.

Shamika

Anyone care to guess the grade on this 1920-D Buffalo nickel?

Leiana

I think gyocomgd's buffalo is uncirculated. Due to the striking issues I do not think it would grade above an MS63. If you look in the Indian's feathers you can see that the details are not well defined. These details do not wear away very easily when they are there.

As for shamika's buffalo, I'd say that one is probably graded at a 62. It has no wear, but the strike is very soft.

-Amanda

Shamika

Dang Amanda, you pretty good. In truth, the coin is PCGS MS63. I personally would grade it 61, but my point is that this issue is sometimes seen with extremely poor strikes.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

AU, much rub is evident