An Interesting email Exchange

braddick · May 23, 2006 1:49AM

I had a coin arrive yesterday that ends up being a total POS. It's not just cleaned but rather heavily polished. It has toning (probably fake) on top of that.

I thought I wrote a fairly friendly email to the seller inquiring about her return policy and my opinion of the coin.

Here's a copy/paste of that exchange (my email is below, written yesterday, with her response above mine, received this morning).

<TABLE cellSpacing=8 cellPadding=0 width="100%" align=center border=0 nowrap>

<TR>
<TD>
<DIV><PRE>Mr. Braddick,
I have done nothing wrong or illegal in sale of this
coin. I did not misrepresent the coin in any way. I
sent you the exact coin you purchased, and it is not a
"fake." I did not know beforehand that it had been
alledgedly polished, as according to you. After doing
research on the problem that you have brought before
me, according to the ANA there is no law against
polishing or "whizzing," as the ANA explains the terms
in their terminology of what is illegal and legal. It
is an accepted practice for some coin dealers and
collectors, and some dealers and collectors even
prefer to having the coins "polished" or "whizzed"
according to the information. You apparently do not,
as that is your right. It is the same as grading
coins. It is very rare to have the grading of a coin
to be consistant by different people who are employed
by firms that grade coins. This polishing process has
done nothing to change the term "uncirculated," as
uncirculated means not ever being used as legal tender
in a purchase. You are mixing apples with oranges
here, and if you do not like the coin, sell it to
another dealer or collector who does not mind this
practice of buying polished or "whizzed" coins in
their collections. As I stated in the auction, I am
not a dealer, therefore I am not a legal expert in
coins. I was describing the coin as it was sold to me.

Yours truly,
Thellis A. Beasley

--- Pat Braddick wrote:

---------------------------------

Well,

This Kennedy arrived today safe and sound- thanks for
the secure mailing.

Unfortunutely it turned into a big disapointment when
I looked at the coin as it has been severely polished
(before it toned).

It's worth silver value, I guess, but not the $40. I
paid for it.

What is your return policy on this Kennedy as I
believe it has been misrepresented as "Uncirculated".
The premium I paid was for that plus the wonderful
color.

Sincerely,

Pat

</PRE></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE>I'll just blow this one off and eat the $44.00 but did believe her response was entertaining on so many levels.

maddogale · May 23, 2006 1:57AM

Man, Pat, talk about a two-step!!! She sounds like she DID know it was cleaned, the way she keeps defending its use....plus I didn't get from your email that you called the coin a fake.....she got bent about that too....

Hope it turns out okay for ya........but I doubt it will.....

solid · May 23, 2006 2:03AM

Damn, she should run for public office!

Steve27 · May 23, 2006 2:03AM

I would have immediately shipped it back and explained that it was not as advertised. I wouldn't have asked about the return policy first. (I hope you paid via credit card.)

cointagious · May 23, 2006 2:06AM

<< Man, Pat, talk about a two-step!!! She sounds like she DID know it was cleaned, the way she keeps defending its use....plus I didn't get from your email that you called the coin a fake.....she got bent about that too....

Hope it turns out okay for ya........but I doubt it will.....

>>

Sounds like a form email she sends out on a regular basis covering all potential complaints.

ModernDollarNut · May 23, 2006 2:08AM

Braddick, what was the return policy stated on the auction?

shirohniichan · May 23, 2006 2:08AM

It's interesting she focuses on what is "legal", not on what is ethical.

You may want to ask her if she knows of any collectors who prefer their coins polished. You can provide her with lots of information showing that polishing severely diminishes coins' collector value.

sinin1 · May 23, 2006 2:10AM

if that is a form letter, she does the whizzing/polishing/toning herself

rsdoug81 · May 23, 2006 2:11AM

<< Braddick, what was the return policy stated on the auction? >>

That's my question as well. All that blabbering and she didn't mention it.

claychaser · May 23, 2006 2:12AM

Who is the seller, or what's the link to the auction?

braddick · May 23, 2006 2:18AM

Here's the Kennedy in question

I know within the auction text she states it is being sold as is (with no returns) so "study the pictures carefully". I'm also aware I offered a BIN of $40. and she accepted my offer.

If it showed up as totally AT (it is) I would have just chalked it up as a chance taken and another in the 'loss' column. I've had plenty of those, so I'm used to the disapointment involved in buying raw coins on eBay.
But, it's so polished it is worn down to AU details. I wrote knowing a return would proably be out of the question ,but still worth a try as it truly is misrepresented.

Again, has she simply wrote back and said, "no returns, period." I'd have moved on. But her reply to me? Come on.
I find her email entertaining and insulting at the same time.

Connecticoin · May 23, 2006 2:22AM

Wow, the photo made the coin look pretty good. Can you post a pic of the coin for comparison?

braddick · May 23, 2006 2:24AM

<< Wow, the photo made the coin look pretty good. Can you post a pic of the coin for comparison? >>

Sure, it won't be tonight, but within a day or so after that I'll post a picture.

messydesk · May 23, 2006 2:25AM

What a piece of work. I would tell her that it's not the ANA, but Congress that will be making it illegal. Cite the same bill that is cited by that stupid chain letter saying that e-mails will be taxed at 5c each to subsidize the post office. I still haven't figured out what apples and oranges she thinks you are comparing. Maybe she's mixed up her anti-depressants and anti-psychotics. Idiot.

Clankeye · May 23, 2006 2:25AM

You'll rue the day you mess with Thellis A. Beasley!

(Sorry, it's just such a theatrical name)

ss350camaro · May 23, 2006 2:28AM

Hey, You found Franklins brother coin

Cladiator · May 23, 2006 2:29AM

<< some dealers and collectors even
prefer to having the coins "polished" or "whizzed" >>

That's the best line in the whole email

braddick · May 23, 2006 2:31AM

It just gets better...

Digging a little bit I come across this in her eBay feedback

Her email to me states she's not a dealer and she gives the impression she really doesn't understand mintstate/uncirculated from that which is not.
Yet, her response to feedback received (third feedback down...) offers a response that would have me believe otherwise.

StrikeOutXXX · May 23, 2006 2:33AM

<< <a class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1964-Toned-Kennedy-Half-Dollar_W0QQitemZ8416930954QQcategoryZ41103QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target=blank>Here's the Kennedy in question</A>

I know within the auction text she states it is being sold as is (with no returns) so "study the pictures carefully". I'm also aware I offered a BIN of $40. and she accepted my offer. >>

It could have been worse, she could have told you she needed an extra $50 because her BIN was too low.

Actually, now that I look at the auction (Not throwing stones here), looks like she ended early not a "BIN" and dealt with you offline? Maybe you can guilt her into a return...

claychaser · May 23, 2006 2:35AM

I see ol' "Diamond Lil" has a worked over Frankie - it's a little more obvoius in her picture than the Kennedy.

Hey - ebay naru's Legend and messes with Anaconda - so we get Diamond Lil! Makes no sense to me . . . .

Cladiator · May 23, 2006 2:54AM

<< Actually, now that I look at the auction (Not throwing stones here), looks like she ended early not a "BIN" and dealt with you offline? >>

That's exactly what it looks like.

braddick · May 23, 2006 3:51AM

<< 

<< Actually, now that I look at the auction (Not throwing stones here), looks like she ended early not a "BIN" and dealt with you offline? >>

That's exactly what it looks like. >>

I offered her a BIN of $40. and she ended the auction and emailed me stating the coin was mine.
I prefer to go through eBay (no fees for me to do so but rather on the seller) but the seller took it off line.

Thenewguy · May 23, 2006 4:34AM

Seller states in auction..

<< I am only excepting the payment in the form of money order or cashier`s check. No exceptions please. >>

In the few other of her auctions I checked she takes paypal also. Would appear to me that she knew that the coin was not as described and buyer would not want a wizzed coin. Thus the misleading scan and the "as is" statement and would only accept payment methods with no possibility of a charge back.

coinguy1 · May 23, 2006 4:43AM

<< Would appear to me that she knew that the coin was not as described and buyer would not want a wizzed coin >>

Pat described the coin as "polished", not "whizzed". While both are very undesirable, it's best not to equate or confuse the two.

szavori · May 23, 2006 4:44AM

A little back and forth with diamondlil1947:

szavori:
Thanks to this thread: http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=505686 , I will avoid your auctions.

diamondlil1947:
Why are you writing me? I consider this a threat and will notify ebay.

szavori:
Threat? Not hardly! The fact that you have been outed as a scammer, you must be feeling threatened. It's your own fault, for the way you mistreat customers and misrepresent items!!!

diamondlil1947:
After looking at your feedback, I wouldn't want you to bid on my auctions.

szavori:
LOL! After looking at my feedback, you see that I pay right away! The only three negative feedbacks came from scammers like you! PayPal has always ruled in my favor when I filed claims against them! Your problem is that now you've become a laughing stock on the Collectors Universe forum and word gets around. What you did to that one buyer may have been technically legal, but it certainly wasn't ethical! Trust me, I will never bid on any of your listings, you are a joke!!!

diamondlil1947:
You know, I didn`t do anything wrong. This guy contacted me and had me to privately sell him this coin. I am not an expert or a coin dealer. He says it is polished. I didn`t know that. Then he threatened me and said he is having me arrested. He says the coin is circulated because it was polished. I bought it from an old guy who said his brother died. So now, do you feel better? This man has commited slander, since you said you would never buy from me. So now, thanks to you, I have a case that I have lost business. You have a really great day.

szavori:
Hold on, let me get a box of tissues and a violin...ok, that's better. Uh, I still wouldn't buy from you! Besides, I believe the Collectors Unviverse forum member story!

StrikeOutXXX · May 23, 2006 4:47AM

Maybe she can get an account here like "Wend" did with the Ham radio a few weeks ago and this baby will hit 100 posts in no time.

coinguy1 · May 23, 2006 4:51AM

Szavori, there is no verifiable evidence that the seller is a "scammer", as you called her. And, it's entirely possible that she had no idea the coin had been polished. I'd be careful about making such unsubstantiated accusations, here or through Ebay.

Edited to add: There is often a significant and legally relevant difference between relaying actual details/facts, as Pat appears to have done, vs. making accusations which might not be able to be substantiated.

Conder101 · May 23, 2006 4:55AM

<< But, it's so polished it is worn down to AU details. I wrote knowing a return would proably be out of the question ,but still worth a try as it truly is misrepresented. >>

I hate to disagree with you Braddick but after looking at the auction I would have to say that she DIDN'T misrepresent the coin. She never claimed that it WAS uncirculated, she said it was sold to HER as uncirculated. Nowhere in the auction does she state what she thinks it grades, and she says that the buyer should look at the pictures carefully in at least two different places. The only claim she makes is that it is toned on the obv and is starting to tone on the reverse. She does not say that it hasn't been cleaned.

She does clearly state that the sale is "as is".

Sorry you got snookered son, but you did it to yourself. (I do agree with what some of the others have said here though that from the tone and some of the content of her email, she knew exactly what she was doing.

Longacre · May 23, 2006 4:58AM

Ebay!

RYK · May 23, 2006 4:59AM

Another seller to avoid--though judging by her inventory, it does not look like I was at great risk of buying anything from her.

szavori · May 23, 2006 5:01AM

coinguy1, it's obvious from what diamondlil has written that she knows excatly what she's doing and has worded her description (and even e-mails) as such to "legally" cover her arse. Having done the dance with a few of these types of sellers in the past, I will still stand by my humble opinion that she's a "scammer", and that I would never buy from her.

braddick · May 23, 2006 5:03AM

Conder101, you're right. I never made claim that the purchase of this one was anything other than my fault in the long run. In fact, if anything, I take the blame pretty early on.
In an effort to receive a refund I wrote a single email to the seller. Again, had the buyer simply stated, "Done deal" I'd have moved on- nothing to see here.

It was her response to my inquiry that left me laughing and troubled at the same time.

It was for amusement purposes only I started this thread and shared the email exchange. Any educational value it may possible have ("eBay" + "raw coins" Be careful!) was simply a possible bonus.

RYK · May 23, 2006 5:06AM

It was for amusement purposes only I started this thread and shared the email exchange.

Mission accomplished.

coinguy1 · May 23, 2006 5:11AM

<<Coinguy1, it's obvious from what diamondlil has written that she knows excatly what she's doing and has worded her description (and even e-mails) as such to "legally" cover her arse>>

Obvious to you, perhaps, but not necessarily to Ebay and/or an attorney who doesn't know all about coins. You might be completely convinced that she is the scammer that you called her, but you can't prove it, which means she has the upper hand vs. you.

<< Another seller to avoid--though judging by her inventory, it does not look like I was at great risk of buying anything from her.

>>

Sure, Robert, whatever you say, like you wouldn't have serious interest in this item!

szavori · May 23, 2006 5:23AM

coinguy1, I must repectfully disagree and still stand by my opinion. Needless to say, she will never get a bid from me....scammer or not.

Fairlaneman · May 23, 2006 5:29AM

<< I would have immediately shipped it back and explained that it was not as advertised. I wouldn't have asked about the return policy first. (I hope you paid via credit card.) >>

and then Pat would get that REEDEDEDGE baby back just like I did from a FLAKE that has a ambigious return policy. I wonder if Pats seller is a PCGS authorized dealer also.

Ken

Artist · May 23, 2006 5:47AM

Thellis Beasley?

I'll bet she's fun at parties...

ABC123 · May 23, 2006 5:48AM

Indicate that you believe that this transaction was probably not reported to eBay as a sale and the fees to eBay not paid. Borders on fraudulent transaction to both you and eBay. See what response you get !

Conder101 · May 23, 2006 6:02AM

From one of Diamondlil's emails

<< You know, I didn`t do anything wrong. This guy contacted me and had me to privately sell him this coin. >>

Nope, didn't do anything wrong except violate the eBay user agreement and sell alisted item outside of eBay and cheat them out of their final value fees. (Of course the downside of this is that if someone reported her to eBay for it it would also nail braddick as well.

<< Then he threatened me and said he is having me arrested. >>

Hmmm I seem to have missed that in the original email. Probably because it isn't there. Sounds like Diamondlil has paranoia problems.

<< I bought it from an old guy who said his brother died. So now, do you feel better? >>

What has that got to do with anything?

<< This man has commited slander, since you said you would never buy from me. So now, thanks to you, I have a case that I have lost business. >>

Slander? Seems to me that the only person who has been slandered (or libeled if you consider this to be a written publication) may be braddick since he has been accused of threatening people. And the only way she can make a case that she has lost business because you say you would never buy from her, she would have to prove that there would be a good chance that you would have been a customer in the future.

Diamondlil is a piece of work.

Proofquarter · May 23, 2006 6:06AM

Szavori, you can learn from Coinguy 1 and others here. Watch what you say and don't bring CU into it.

szavori · May 23, 2006 6:15AM

Proofquarter, if it means that diamondlil is embarrassed at the publicity and turns over a new leaf as a result, then it's worth it. Hopefully she's learned her lesson and will realize there are people watching and willing to help those that have no recourse otherwise. CU can be a good policing medium of sorts.

Djord · May 23, 2006 6:23AM

This person is a thief. You may want to mention that uncirculated means mint state, or unaltered .

I would have everyone email her questions on every coin for sale whether it is cleaned or not?

coinguy1 · May 23, 2006 6:34AM

<< You may want to mention that uncirculated means mint state, or unaltered . >>

Not true. There are many uncirculated coins, uncertified and in major grading company's holders that have been cleaned or "altered" in some way.

<< I would have everyone email her questions on every coin for sale whether it is cleaned or not? >>

Many sellers, both honest and dishonest ones, have no idea whether their coins have been cleaned or not.

Peaceman · May 23, 2006 6:41AM

Looks like a Lawyer sold you the coin....

sinin1 · May 23, 2006 6:49AM

interesting what she bought and her question to seller ->

Questions from other members : LOT of 36 STATEHOOD Quarters+ALBUM(BEST Offer/Buy Now) Item number: 8407535797

Question & Answer Answered On

Q: Have the coins been circulated? Thank you for your help. Diamond
Apr-21-06
A: Lil, All the Quarters are GEM BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED from the U.S. Mint bank rolls supplied by NF String & Sons, Dunbar or Brinks. They all are beautiful and disappearing fast. Thanks for your interest, Capt. Kirk

anablep · May 23, 2006 6:53AM

a. I never purchase raw coins from Ebay.

b. I don't trust purchasing anything through Ebay anymore.

c. We learn from mistakes like these. Better its only a $40 coin and be glad its not a $4000 coin.

thezookrew · May 23, 2006 7:13AM

OK, but the one thing I don't get is the picture of the coin (even the large one) looks decent and Braddick said the coin looks nothing like it (POS if I remember right!!

). If the picture she used in the auction is doctored (which it looks like it may have been photoshopped) then it would be fruad and false advertising. And can she back up the claim that it was sold to her "as uncirculated"? If she is buying coins at an estate sale, I would think she knows more about coins than what she put in her e-mails and auctions!! JMHO

FatMan · May 23, 2006 7:34AM

<< 

<< Another seller to avoid--though judging by her inventory, it does not look like I was at great risk of buying anything from her.

>>

Sure, Robert, whatever you say, like you wouldn't have serious interest in this item! >>

arlea1957 · May 23, 2006 7:53AM

Odd, she currently has 20 items up for sale and only the coins listing are not offering paypal...... cashier checks or money order only

Djord · May 23, 2006 8:11AM

<< 

<< You may want to mention that uncirculated means mint state, or unaltered . >>

Not true. There are many uncirculated coins, uncertified and in major grading company's holders that have been cleaned or "altered" in some way.

<< I would have everyone email her questions on every coin for sale whether it is cleaned or not? >>

Many sellers, both honest and dishonest ones, have no idea whether their coins have been cleaned or not. >>

Cleaned and altered yes such as Anacs which will state Cleaned or altered net grade MS60 .
The ones that do grade altered coins state this on their holder.

I maintain that if you list a coin as uncirculated you are saying that it is mint state meaning (unaltered)
Not having the ability to detect a cleaned coin is no excuse, if you do not know then do not list the
coin as uncirculated.
I really do not give a crap about the symantecs of the issue, mint state means mint state (uncirculated) (unaltered)

If there are coins in holders because they are cleaned they are identified as such, and if they are not it is because
cleaning can not be detected.

I have dealt with many slimeballs like this, and recently received a 1921 peace dollar that was advertised as
uncirculated $350.00 dollars later I received a whizzed and dipped piece of crap. Should I have accepted this
since the net details were uncirculated from a distance?

If I am not sure on a listing I will not advertise it as such. I have advertised plenty of coins that I was not sure
of and listed them as (MAY HAVE BEEN CLEANED).

Read the email this person knew exactly what they were doing!

An Interesting email Exchange

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