Some Raw $10 Liberties from Ebay I bought
bcinok
Posts: 29 ✭
Just gotta love that raw gold on Ebay. Sure its risky, but it can have its rewards too.
or this one
It will be interesting to see what they grade from PCGS.
or this one
It will be interesting to see what they grade from PCGS.
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Comments
Bodybag--cleaned, IMHO. Raw gold on EBAY is BAAAAAD!
<< <i>"It will be interesting to see what they grade from PCGS. "
Bodybag--cleaned, IMHO. Raw gold on EBAY is BAAAAAD! >>
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Anyone can buy a good coin in a slab. IF these coins are BB'd, then I am out a couple of hundred dollars over melt value, but if they grade around AU 55, or better, they will be worth several times what I paid for them.
I am willing to take that risk as I am just doing it for fun anyway.
From the pictures, it looks like the 1847 might have been dipped, while the picture of the 1849 makes it look pretty original.
While the images aren't that good, both coins look more like XF-45s to me.
(And, actually, not everyone can buy a good coin in a slab - not every coin in a slab is a good one.)
Check out the Southern Gold Society
In general at first blush an AU-55 might appear to be Mint State until you really take a look at it. These coins are obviously circulated pieces. Maybe NGC will give you an AU-50, that no one but a neophyte will take for granted, but I’d say you are looking an EF if you send these pieces to PCGS.
As for buying raw gold from Ebay, the recent gold coin counterfeiting guide by Bill Fivaz summed it up this way. "Buying gold coins on Ebay is like playing Russian roulette with three bullets in the chamber." Fiviz further comments that most of these counterfiets are not due to the fact that Ebay sellers are crooks. The problem is they don't know any better.
<< <i>Going by the pictures, if you think that PCGS is going to grade these coins AU-55 or better, you need a crash course in coin grading. To be an AU-55, a coin must have more than half of its mint luster and surface. These two pieces have very little of their mint luster left. There is considerable rub in the fields and obvious wear on the devices.
In general at first blush an AU-55 might appear to be Mint State until you really take a look at it. These coins are obviously circulated pieces. Maybe NGC will give you an AU-50, that no one but a neophyte will take for granted, but I’d say you are looking an EF if you send these pieces to PCGS.
As for buying raw gold from Ebay, the recent gold coin counterfeiting guide by Bill Fivaz summed it up this way. "Buying gold coins on Ebay is like playing Russian roulette with three bullets in the chamber." Fiviz further comments that most of these counterfiets are not due to the fact that Ebay sellers are crooks. The problem is they don't know any better. >>
I don't expect either coin to grade AU55, but I have seen lots of 45's that look worse that are already in a holder.
If Bill Fivaz is correct in his analogy to playing Russian Roulette with 3 bullets in the cylinder, then 50% of the "gold coins on Ebay" are counterfeit.
Do you really believe that 1 out of 2 gold coins on Ebay is a fake? Maybe some are cleaned, polished, damaged, etc, but I am going to need some more proof before I would believe that half the coins are counterfeit.
I recently sent in 9 raw gold coins purchased from Ebay to PCGS and I will soon see if these statistics hold true for my purchases. I find it hard to believe that someone would go to the trouble of counterfeiting common date gold coins which in the case of $2.50 Indians can be had for less than $200 apiece or Liberties like these two that sell for less than $500 apiece. It would be so much easier, and profitable, to make illegal copies of CD's or DVD's than to make fake gold coins that actually look real.
<< <i>I find it hard to believe that someone would go to the trouble of counterfeiting common date gold coins which in the case of $2.50 Indians can be had for less than $200 apiece or Liberties like these two that sell for less than $500 apiece. It would be so much easier, and profitable, to make illegal copies of CD's or DVD's than to make fake gold coins that actually look real. >>
It will be interesting to see what your experience is with the raw gold, and I hope you take the time to post it. As you implied in your first post, it's a gamble, one that most of us are unwilling to take with limited collection dollars.
Your comment about counterfeits, however, misses the point. Many common date gold pieces were counterfeited in the days that the coins circulated and when gold was traded widely in world markets. Realize that the coins were fiduciary - i.e., their face value exceeded their specie value (their intrinsic worth due to the value of metal). That meant that making fakes with identical metal content, thus the same weight, was profitable. And so, this was done widely from the Orient to Europe, and some also in the western hemisphere. (Many very well done fakes have the correct metal content.) But since the world traded on gold and silver standards, this made counterfeiting quite profitable. Moreover, counterfeiting common dates was desireable since it drew less attention than rare pieces that had known numismatic value.
Hoot
If a coin costing more than a couple hundred dollars is not in a PCGS/NGC slab there must be a reason. Do you feel lucky?
I can email you the names of 3 friends who got burned buying raw gold on ebay. If I recall they bought from people who probably didn't know themselves. Either way the rise in gold bailed them out.
Buy lottery tickets instead of raw gold on ebay, they will come out ahead!
<< <i>I find it hard to believe that someone would go to the trouble of counterfeiting common date gold coins which in the case of $2.50 Indians can be had for less than $200 apiece or Liberties like these two that sell for less than $500 apiece. >>
In fact, Indian quarter eagles are among the most frequently seen counterfeited series. The recent counterfeit gold is usually common date lower denomination pieces struck in actual gold to fool collectors. What's the gold value on a quarter eagle? Eighty dollars or so? And the cost for an uncirculated Indian? $300 or so? It might pay off. Gold dollars and three dollar pieces would be even better, wouldn't they? No motto Liberty eagles are not as likely to be counterfeit. If there's a problem with them it will more likely be from altered surfaces, cleaning, wiping, scrubbing, whatever.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>Do you really believe that 1 out of 2 gold coins on Ebay is a fake? Maybe some are cleaned, polished, damaged, etc, but I am going to need some more proof before I would believe that half the coins are counterfeit. >>
Since I've never taken a survey of Ebay to see how many gold counterfeits I could find, I can't say if 50% of the coins are bad. I do know that I’ve see my share of counterfeit copper coins and political tokens on Ebay.
All it takes is for you to get stuck with as little as 20% bad coins, and you would have been better off shopping elsewhere. When you buy a bad coin on Ebay, FIRST you have to have the ability to spot it very quickly. If you don't spot it in time, chances are the return period will be over and you will be stuck. SECOND, you have to be dealing with a seller who will keep his or her word and let you return the item. At any rate you will be out the postage both ways, which leaves you with a loss of $20 or more with nothing to show for it.
If I were in the business of buying low-grade U.S. gold coins, I'd go to the shows. I'd pass on Ebay. Whatever bargains you might find will be offset with expenses and aggravation
<< <i>
<< <i>Do you really believe that 1 out of 2 gold coins on Ebay is a fake? Maybe some are cleaned, polished, damaged, etc, but I am going to need some more proof before I would believe that half the coins are counterfeit. >>
Since I've never taken a survey of Ebay to see how many gold counterfeits I could find, I can't say if 50% of the coins are bad. I do know that I’ve see my share of counterfeit copper coins and political tokens on Ebay.
All it takes is for you to get stuck with as little as 20% bad coins, and you would have been better off shopping elsewhere. When you buy a bad coin on Ebay, FIRST you have to have the ability to spot it very quickly. If you don't spot it in time, chances are the return period will be over and you will be stuck. SECOND, you have to be dealing with a seller who will keep his or her word and let you return the item. At any rate you will be out the postage both ways, which leaves you with a loss of $20 or more with nothing to show for it.
If I were in the business of buying low-grade U.S. gold coins, I'd go to the shows. I'd pass on Ebay. Whatever bargains you might find will be offset with expenses and aggravation >>
I agree 100%. I would have to say that counterfeitting within Silver and Gold will become even more prevalent. Recently, a frellow ebayer and collector I knew got hit by Silver counterfeits and the only way he knew was just as indicated, the weight of the coin and he had to look at the thing with a 5x loop. So, it will NOT be in the cards for myself. I have however gotten some low cost silver from E bay and both were certified as the real deal. They were proofs. BUT, if it were raw gold or a CC dollar, oh hell no. Its too easy.
Even in scrip there are HUGE counterfeitting issues. So, whats the bottom line? There are no bargains.......IMO
2.5 Indians were some of the most common counterfeits floating around in bull markets of 79/80.m I was buying all the scrap from coin shops and jewelry stores ( a LOT ) in that era and all I can tell you is the counterfeiters were banging those things out it seemed like in quantities.
And one jeweler, after I told them that their entire double row box of 2.5's which also included a few $3.00's were fakes and that I would simply cut them in half, test em and pay scrap, said, nah, we'll put them in rings, necklaces and sell em as real.
Which is what they did.
It's great that you are having fun. Really. Just factor in what could turn out to be a real downer in that fun and make adjustments accordingly. To lose that feeling that you are having would be more tragic than losing simply money. So insure yourself against it as much as possible.
To quote someone else on this forum , Happy Collecting ! ( Thanks Mr O, I use it all the time now)
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>I find it hard to believe that someone would go to the trouble of counterfeiting common date gold coins which in the case of $2.50 Indians can be had for less than $200 apiece or Liberties like these two that sell for less than $500 apiece. >>
I've seen common date counterfeit gold coins, and they have been around for as long as I've been collecting gold coins, which dates back to the mid 1960s. Many pieces were made a long time ago because there was a profit in doing it. They were made back in the days when gold coins were current and they were made in modern times. They were made in the Middle East and they were made in Eastern Europe. The East European Communists were not above coping U.S. gold coins. A lot of them came out of East Germany.
No, such counterfeits might not seem profitable to you, mreallygold, the incentive has been there from the time the first U.S. coins came off the presses.
<< <i>I find it hard to believe that someone would go to the trouble of counterfeiting common date gold coins which in the case of $2.50 Indians can be had for less than $200 apiece or Liberties like these two that sell for less than $500 apiece. ........... >>
Let's say, if it costs you one dollar to make one counterfeit that you can sell for $200, that's not so hard to believe.
<< <i>
<< <i>I find it hard to believe that someone would go to the trouble of counterfeiting common date gold coins which in the case of $2.50 Indians can be had for less than $200 apiece or Liberties like these two that sell for less than $500 apiece. ........... >>
Let's say, if it costs you one dollar to make one counterfeit that you can sell for $200, that's not so hard to believe. >>
ESPECIALLY FOR A COMMON DATE. CAN I GET AN AMEN????
could be cleaned?
higher devices show wear, so i agree with XF statements.
but was it cleaned or honest wear? you tell us.
in hand yet? where is the luster left if any? by the date?
<< <i>i dont see enough luster in the pics.
could be cleaned?
higher devices show wear, so i agree with XF statements.
but was it cleaned or honest wear? you tell us.
in hand yet? where is the luster left if any? by the date? >>
I don't have the coins in hand and these pictures are from the Ebay auction so we will have to wait and see. I have a submission in to PCGS now that contains 7 gold coins purchased raw from ebay and 10 more for crossover service that are from various grading agencies that are 3rd tier, or worse.
I bought all of them within the past 4 months with the intention of sending them in just to see what happens. I should have some info on those in for Regular service that were entered in on 4/24 and I will post what happens for everyone to see. I have always done things that were "against the grain" of common thinking so this is just another way of having some fun. I see plenty of posts on here for coins that "experienced collectors" have bought that come back in a BB, or knocked way down, so I won't be the first, but at least I am doing it with an open mind and no expectations of making it big in coin collecting.
If I want to make money I'll go to work a little earlier in the day, sniping coins on Ebay is for fun.
I sent in 5 $2.50 Indian quarter eagles that were all purchased for under $211.00 each. Only 1 has been graded and it was an ICG-AU55
I sent in 3 $5.00 Indian half eagles 1 PCI MS60, 1 ANACS AU58 and 1 raw. Only the PCI MS60 was over $300.00
I sent in 2 $5.00 Liberty half eagles 1 ICG AU55 and 1 NNC MS60PL. Both were bought for less than $185.00 ea.
I sent in 6 $10.00 Indian Eagles (my favorite) 2 raw and 4 crossover. 1 ANACS AU53, 1 NNC MS64, 1 ANACS MS61 and 1 SGS MS64. Only 1 coin was over $600 and two were less than $420.00 apiece.
I sent in 1 $20 Liberty Double Eagle graded MS-63 by WMP? purchased for under $700.00
I also sent in 2 raw Morgan dollars from Ebay 1886 and 1898 bought for $41 and $43 because they have the potential to be MS?? coins, if they haven't been cleaned, counterfeited, or whatever.
Crossover grades were set well below the established grade and the raw coins are on their own. None of these coins has any great upside potential and even if they all came back graded and crossed with no change I would not make enough money to sneeze at and I will probably never sell them anyway.
I do have some PCGS and NGC slabbed gold coins too, but they have no potential interest other than buying them below market value.