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Why Does eBay "fairtraderz" Only Bid On Coins From "justgreatcoins"?

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Edited to add: If this SPECIFIC question has been asked & answered already here on the forums, please let me know & I'll edit out the title. image
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    Here We Go Again! image
    morgannut2
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    FatManFatMan Posts: 8,977
    image
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    dizzyfoxxdizzyfoxx Posts: 9,823 ✭✭✭
    imageimage
    image...There's always time for coin collecting. image
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    RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    Because only justgreatcoins has coins that fairtraderz wants.

    Russ, NCNE
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    TACloughTAClough Posts: 1,598
    Who cares???
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    pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355
    Is this the seller that Heritage likes, that was mentioned a couple weeks ago?
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
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    RBinTexRBinTex Posts: 4,328
    "Is this the seller that Heritage likes, that was mentioned a couple weeks ago?"

    I believe you are RIGHT.
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    TorinoCobra71TorinoCobra71 Posts: 8,099 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Because only justgreatcoins has coins that fairtraderz wants.

    Russ, NCNE >>




    Yeah, Right................. imageimageimage

    TC71

    image
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    flaminioflaminio Posts: 5,664 ✭✭✭
    In case you need it...

    Link to report shill bidding on eBay.

    Item numbers, in blocks of ten:
    8399028251,8399029522,8399038090,8399080077,8399081046,8399105041,8399117800,8399137879,8399505897,8399530118
    8399542121,8399543696,8399567045,8402615662,8407671382,8407672503,8407678869,8407681827,8407683626,8407699640
    8407702582,8407704216,8407707788,8407712953,8407714761,8407716280,8407726641,8407728047,8407729951,8407731690
    8407733711,8407735432,8407736637,8407737781,8407738640,8407739513,8407741310,8407743376,8407744658,8407746107
    8407747366,8407748892,8407750917,8407752890,8407756252,8407758263,8407760095,8407766903,8407769045,8407770514
    8407771703,8407772900,8407781773,8407782557,8407789396,8407806417
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    pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355
    Roger and Pat are pretty good sleuths. Of course, if you're the type that believes in coincidences, you might not be interestedimage
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
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    GATGAT Posts: 3,146
    I would advise everyone to be extremely careful on what you post. These guys have money and you might find yourself in an lawsuit.
    USAF vet 1951-59
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    northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is this Heritage that has been outed as having a shill bidder? Explain the reference please to Heritage if that is not what is being suggested.
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    MintstateMintstate Posts: 255 ✭✭


    This guy likes his auctions also.......
    Link
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    pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355


    << <i>I would advise everyone to be extremely careful on what you post. These guys have money and you might find yourself in an lawsuit. >>




    How so?
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
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    roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,374 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It looks like all those power buyers appreciate the quality of "justgreatcoins." Isn't that Robert Hughes?

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
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    goose3goose3 Posts: 11,471 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I would advise everyone to be extremely careful on what you post. These guys have money and you might find yourself in an lawsuit. >>




    image
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    SamByrdSamByrd Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭✭
    Yawn... Who cares about fairtraders, its well known they were caught shilling, back out on winning bids unless the are presured to make good, as well as bait and switch, I am sure no one is surprised by there latest disclosed activity. I guess there is a lower level then bottom feeder...........
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    MyqqyMyqqy Posts: 9,777
    What made you think to investigate this in the first place? image
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
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    BlindedByEgoBlindedByEgo Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And here I thought that Ebay actually cared about shill bidders.

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    mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    Looks like this bidder also likes "justgreatcoins".
    coinmaster02

    Is there no end to this Ebay strange bidding?

    edited to clean up what was already edited in the start of the thread.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
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    ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I suspect shill bidding is more rampant on Ebay than most realize --- and when friends in different locations band together to shill each other's auctions it is nearly impossible to stop. And if the shillers "win" each others auctions, they will just make sure to keep a paper trail of invoices and payments should they get caught.

    About all one can do is just avoid the auctions where this activity is apparent.
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    pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355


    << <i>I would advise everyone to be extremely careful on what you post. These guys have money and you might find yourself in an lawsuit. >>




    You know, that's one of the reasons the "big shots" take such big shots from most of the members here. It's fun to knock em down a peg or two.

    And they wouldn't be such "big shots" if there weren't a few nancy-boy sycophants who build them up so, as if saying the name of a coin dealer gives them wet dreams.

    Case in point, the toned peace thread this week. I bet the dealer wishes his "friend" had never brought the coin up. In so doing, opinions were given, and umbrage was taken over opinions. Opinions! Then members of a toned coin group rushed in to defend their dealer buddy, and came off looking boorish and downright mean in the process. The members of this forum comported themselves like gentlemen, I am proud to say.

    So, we won't live in fear of expressing ourselves. And big shots have been put on notice. Like Ken asked in another thread, have they learned anything lately?

    image
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
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    ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This I DO know:

    RLH schleps his Ebay stuff to dealers at a show and asks them to bid. Its NOT shill bidding. He shows the coins and asks you to bid.

    I could bid if I wanted to. I'm sure there are other bidders besides Heritage and Fairtraderz. I would also bet they put in cheap bids on all his items.

    I do not think that is shilling or wrong. Anyone can do that. >>



    If it is not shilling, what do you call it, and what is the purpose of such activity?
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    ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭✭✭
    deleted double post image
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    TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 45,041 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What I saw when I looked was a lot of coins sold to a lot of other people, and some coins only had one bidder and I don't know Jack, so if SHILL and he are hookin up over a pale of water, it ain't no skin off my nose anyway.

    edit to change Jill to Shill
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    RKKayRKKay Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>This I DO know:

    RLH schleps his Ebay stuff to dealers at a show and asks them to bid. Its NOT shill bidding. He shows the coins and asks you to bid.

    I could bid if I wanted to. I'm sure there are other bidders besides Heritage and Fairtraderz. I would also bet they put in cheap bids on all his items.

    I do not think that is shilling or wrong. Anyone can do that. >>



    If it is not shilling, what do you call it, and what is the purpose of such activity? >>

    image

    Edited to add: if it weren't shilling, why wouldn't they buy the coin on the bourse?
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    I SMELL A RAT!!
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    roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,374 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It is an interesting band of dealers. Also in that favored bidder's list is NAONE who I've done some business with from time to time.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
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    fcfc Posts: 12,805 ✭✭✭
    i think it is ok.
    what if a dealer i saw at a show showed me 20 half eagles.
    i knew he had possesion of them and could get them to me
    with no shipping charges at the very next show.

    well, i could easily bid slightly over spot for them all.
    if i win, great! if i lose, well that is all i cared about them.

    so you bid wholesale like.

    the trick is, the seller wants to play the ebay route. he wants
    more then wholesale.
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    nederveitnederveit Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭
    That's what happened to me, I bought a coin from Fairtraderz on e-bay, and then they
    never delivered the coin. My guess, they sold it at a show doing exactly what Laura is
    talking about.

    Oh yeah, they gave me negative feedback over the deal. Any way you slice it, this is
    not a dealer I would recommend, nor trust.
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    ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>So what you people are saying is if I decided to take all the coins I run in my Ebay sales, show them to dealers, ask them to place legit bids after viewing them, that means I am asking them to shill???

    You can't be serious!!! >>



    If a dealer asks you to do this, and you are not willing to buy the coin on the bourse, why would you bid on it?
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    mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    So, let me get this straight. Justgreatcoins shows his 200+ Ebay auction lots to various dealers while at a major coin show. Then, these dealers each take their time to enter 50+ bids on Ebay. Sure sounds like a very time consuming effort by these dealer bidders. Sorry, I can't buy this idea.image
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Instead of trying to catch a shill, why don't all of you folks just figure out what a coin is worth to you and place your bid, win or lose?

    Doug
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    ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I have thought of showing some of my Ebay coins to dealers at shows. I just don't have the time to do so. Hey, one extra bid is worth it. In the auction biz, your underbidders are the ones who make you the money.

    The way some people here are acting is that anyone who is an underbidder is a shill. It is simply NOT so (if it is then I am the biggest shill for every major auction house). >>



    At what level of bidding does it cross the threshold into shill bidding?

    By artifically creating more underbidders, these bands of dealers are manipulating auctions and setting de-facto reserves without paying a reserve fee, which is a form of reserve fee avoidance. I am not terribly troubled that Ebay is being screwed out of reserve fees, but what is concerning is that these auctions are being manipulated and touted as "no reserve" when they really are not.
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    RKKayRKKay Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Why are you all so intent on proving me wrong? Is it because a dealer is invloved? You don't think collectors shill? >>



    I'm not intent on proving you wrong. I've agreed with the premise behind your post twice already. Yes. Collectors do shill as well.
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    TrinkettsTrinketts Posts: 1,699


    << <i>

    << <i>I have thought of showing some of my Ebay coins to dealers at shows. I just don't have the time to do so. Hey, one extra bid is worth it. In the auction biz, your underbidders are the ones who make you the money.

    The way some people here are acting is that anyone who is an underbidder is a shill. It is simply NOT so (if it is then I am the biggest shill for every major auction house). >>



    At what level of bidding does it cross the threshold into shill bidding?

    By artifically creating more underbidders, these bands of dealers are manipulating auctions and setting de-facto reserves without paying a reserve fee, which is a form of reserve fee avoidance. I am not terribly troubled that Ebay is being screwed out of reserve fees, but what is concerning is that these auctions are being manipulated and touted as "no reserve" when they really are not. >>



    This would save me a ton of money in Ebay fees.. I will list all my auctions at one cent and have reduced listing fees then if I could just get you guys to bid at least 10% back of bid on all my lots that would be great image
    Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing about. -Benjamin Franklin-
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    I don't really see a problem with showing auction coins to fellow dealers as a way of increasing exposure for your listings. In a way, it's kind of like free advertising.

    However, if those same dealers bid on those coins and run up the auction prices, and then use those inflated auction prices as justification for raising the retail prices of their own coins, then a cynic could argue that this amounts to unfairly influencing/manipulating the market.

    Edited to add: As dealers, why wouldn't you just snipe the auction to save money? Regular collectors know all about this practice, certainly dealers do too.
    image
    image
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    ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>You don't think collectors shill? >>



    You are correct -- collectors, dealers, and wannabe dealers all shill auctions, and sometimes Collectors consign to dealers and shill their own consignments.
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    << <i>
    Case in point, the toned peace thread this week. I bet the dealer wishes his "friend" had never brought the coin up. In so doing, opinions were given, and umbrage was taken over opinions. Opinions! Then members of a toned coin group rushed in to defend their dealer buddy, and came off looking boorish and downright mean in the process. The members of this forum comported themselves like gentlemen, I am proud to say.
    >>



    Last I checked you were a member of this boorish group........this statement and other posted on the TCCS along with auction pictures Hadleydog posted showing enhanced images seem to indicate that you are trying to play for which ever team will have you.........and I thought Lucy was being harsh when she called you a troll image
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    Am I the only one who has no issue with shilling? I don't understand why folks get their panties in a bundle over it. The unwary morons who get skinned are going to get screwed over one place or another. You can only protect them from themselves for so long.

    You're either willing to pay what you're going to have to pay to win a coin, or you're not. Boo freakin' hoo.
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    << <i>I do not think that is shilling or wrong. Anyone can do that. >>



    Technically, shilling is illegal.

    From wikipedia (Link):

    Shills in auctions

    Shills, or "potted plants", are frequently employed in auctions. Driving prices up with phony bids, they seek to provoke a bidding war among other participants. Often they are told by the seller precisely how high to bid, as the seller actually pays the price (to himself, of course) if the item does not sell, losing only the auction fees.

    Shilling is an even larger problem in online auctions, where any user with multiple accounts (and IP addresses) can shill without aid of participants. Many online auction sites employ sophisticated (and usually secret) methods to detect collusion, and a number of people have been sent to jail for online auction fraud in the past decade. See more at: The Hazards of Online Auctions

    A common shilling tactic is to have two shills. The first is a young child who offers a low bid for a moderately-priced item. Other auction participants will be reluctant to outbid him. The second shill is an ill-mannered and usually overweight man who does just that—he outbids the kid, who starts crying. In theory, this should provoke other auction participants to outbid the man solely for the sake of beating him; by bidding well beyond the item's value, he can artificially increase prices.

    This practice is illegal in virtually all jurisdictions.


    And this is from FindLaw (link):

    Section 671.05 Shills Prohibited

    "The auction licensee shall not allow to be present at any auction sale any person who shills; namely, a person who in collusion with the auctioneer enters false bids on the articles offered for sale for the purpose of advancing the bid price thereon. The licensee under this chapter shall not allow shilling at auction sales."

    Asking someone to bid on your auction for the sake of driving up the price is shilling. Now, if the dealers who place the bids actually win the auctions and get the coins, then it can't reasonably be called shilling, but shilling is illegal, if it happens.
    If you haven't noticed, I'm single and miserable and I've got four albums of bitching about it that I would offer as proof.

    -- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows


    My Ebay Auctions
    image
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    MintstateMintstate Posts: 255 ✭✭


    << <i> Again, Bobby hoves a paper in front of you to fill out right then and there. Then he has someone enter it. At shows you only have time to think about what is right in front of you. >>



    Wouldn't they need your Ebay password to do that?
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    << <i>Am I the only one who has no issue with shilling? I don't understand why folks get their panties in a bundle over it. The unwary morons who get skinned are going to get screwed over one place or another. You can only protect them from themselves for so long.

    You're either willing to pay what you're going to have to pay to win a coin, or you're not. Boo freakin' hoo. >>



    Really? So you see nothing wrong with bidding on your own auction? Or having others bid on your auction just so it will run up the final selling price?

    Do you practice this by chance?
    image
    image
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    pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355


    << <i>Am I the only one who has no issue with shilling? I don't understand why folks get their panties in a bundle over it. The unwary morons who get skinned are going to get screwed over one place or another. You can only protect them from themselves for so long.

    You're either willing to pay what you're going to have to pay to win a coin, or you're not. Boo freakin' hoo. >>




    I thought it was prohibited by ebay?
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
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    << <i>Am I the only one who has no issue with shilling? >>



    Yes.



    << <i>I don't understand why folks get their panties in a bundle over it. The unwary morons who get skinned are going to get screwed over one place or another. You can only protect them from themselves for so long. >>



    Shill bidding is fraud, and it's illegal (to say nothing of unethical). It's simply manipulating an auction to get the price you want. The legal way to do that is through a reserve or a BIN. People who shill are trying to avoid the fees associated with the legal ways of doing things, as well as trying to avoid the risk of selling an item at a loss.



    << <i>You're either willing to pay what you're going to have to pay to win a coin, or you're not. Boo freakin' hoo. >>



    Try using that argument with the government when they arrest you. Should be fun to watch. image
    If you haven't noticed, I'm single and miserable and I've got four albums of bitching about it that I would offer as proof.

    -- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows


    My Ebay Auctions
    image
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    TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 45,041 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Try using that argument with the government when they arrest you. Should be fun to watch. image >>




    they arrest you for shill bidding ? That's when I would plead the fifth... or maybe temporary insanity...


    yeah, temporary insanity... I'll say I was just crazy about laura image
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    << <i>Try using that argument with the government when they arrest you. Should be fun to watch. image >>




    they arrest you for shill bidding ? That's when I would plead the fifth... or maybe temporary insanity...

    yeah, temporary insanity... I'll say I was just crazy about laura image >>



    Shill bidding is fraud, which can certainly land you in jail. Do I know of any cases where Ebay shills have gone to jail? No. But I also don't know of any cases where people selling counterfeit merchandise on Ebay (that they don't disclose is counterfeit) went to jail, and that's also very illegal.

    One of the problems with Ebay is if they decided overnight to clean up the illegal activity, it would have to cease to exist.
    If you haven't noticed, I'm single and miserable and I've got four albums of bitching about it that I would offer as proof.

    -- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows


    My Ebay Auctions
    image
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    << <i>I thought it was prohibited by ebay? >>



    Of course it is, because as several have pointed out, it is illegal. However, I suspect eBay cares more about their bottom line than the ethics/legality of shilling. If shilling were legal, eBay would have to revamp the listing fee system, because you'd see every auction starting at one cent.

    When I look at a coin in an eBay auction, I decide far in advance of the close of the auction what I am willing to pay for the coin. Then I either sit and snipe it if I am around, or enter the bid immediately. I shouldn't have to explain the obvious. Yes, it is sad that people get ripped off, but if I stopped to think about all the bad crap going on in the world I'd probably never leave my bedroom.
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    << <i>Really? So you see nothing wrong with bidding on your own auction? Or having others bid on your auction just so it will run up the final selling price?

    Do you practice this by chance? >>




    My eBay ID is spiritunbroken. Go check me out, cupcake. I really ate it on the aesacus I sold, incidentally. On the few things I sell, I either do a $0.99 no reserve or I start the auction at or about what I think a fair price is. Really, go check me out. I don't have a single thing to hide.
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    pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355
    Thanks for mentioning the mob ganging up on little ol me, Shane, over there. Hopefully folks here will check that out, see how you guys conduct yourselves. He was wrong, but everyone jumped on me. And no one over there has ever questioned one of his coins or images.

    Pretty ironic, the peace dollar seller/imager in this week's thread, suggesting over there that my coin was AT, while the folks here were complimentary. Completely different picture than the one you guys try to paint of yourselves.

    Poor form, all around, by the toner forum bunch.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image

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