I think the bottom line is, if the people bidding on your auctions actually pay up when they win, and receive the coin, that's not shilling. If they're just doing it to protect you in case you don't get the bids you want, or to drive up bidding so they can back out at the last minute and give the auction to the "runner-up", that's shilling. When I see a lot of the same people bidding on each other's coins, that smacks of shilling to me, because it has the appearance of being an agreement. I say this because I would expect two people who like each other's coins to set up (after at most a few auctions) private channels to do their deals on, and leave the auction process to coins which their favorite buyer isn't interested in. That's what makes it look suspicious.
If you haven't noticed, I'm single and miserable and I've got four albums of bitching about it that I would offer as proof.
" When I see a lot of the same people bidding on each other's coins, that smacks of shilling to me, because it has the appearance of being an agreement. I say this because I would expect two people who like each other's coins to set up (after at most a few auctions) private channels to do their deals on, and leave the auction process to coins which their favorite buyer isn't interested in. That's what makes it look suspicious"
<< <i>Really? So you see nothing wrong with bidding on your own auction? Or having others bid on your auction just so it will run up the final selling price?
Do you practice this by chance? >>
My eBay ID is spiritunbroken. Go check me out, cupcake. I really ate it on the aesacus I sold, incidentally. On the few things I sell, I either do a $0.99 no reserve or I start the auction at or about what I think a fair price is. Really, go check me out. I don't have a single thing to hide. >>
"Cupcake?" If you're going to call me that you're going to have to pony up dinner first.
Did I accuse you of shilling? Well, did I? I asked you if you practice shilling because of your comment:
<< <i> Am I the only one who has no issue with shilling? I don't understand why folks get their panties in a bundle over it. >>
Your words, not mine. You said you have "no issue with shilling."
<< <i>Thanks for mentioning the mob ganging up on little ol me, Shane, over there. Hopefully folks here will check that out, see how you guys conduct yourselves. He was wrong, but everyone jumped on me. And no one over there has ever questioned one of his coins or images.
Pretty ironic, the peace dollar seller/imager in this week's thread, suggesting over there that my coin was AT, while the folks here were complimentary. Completely different picture than the one you guys try to paint of yourselves.
Poor form, all around, by the toner forum bunch. >>
Nobody jumped all over you on the TCCS boards, pharmer (Yes, you are/were a member). Here's the thread junkcoin. I think you got your panties in a knot when the authenticity of a toner you are asking 6k for was questioned. Ironic thing is, the comment was made in jest. Your behaviour on those boards following that thread would have had you bammed here.
Do any of the alledged shilled auctions contain a note that says the item is avaliable for view prior to bid? Seems to me that such a simple note in the listing would be a good thing, and would even give a bidder more confidence in making a purchase, sight unseen. The absence of such a note makes me wonder. In addition, the private viewing puts certian bidders at an advantage, and others at disadvantage, and goes against the true spirit of an auction.
It's early Sunday morning in Pittsburgh, the rain's coming down and golf today is out of the question. So I thought I'd read completely through this thread as a way to fill in my early morning. This, combined with the 'umpteen other threads on shill bidding probably has no mid-point for compromise. The subject is one most people have a passionate, bias opinion.
However, I think many miss the fundamental tenets of our collecting pursuits.
1. Buy from others in whom you have faith and trust. 2. Pay no more than what value you assign to the coin.
I think the anger with shill bidders comes from the buyers own lack of discipline in that they move from objective analysis of what the coin is worth to them (and only them) to the "irrational exuberance" of a "must win" mentality. While we all want to "pay less and get more", we seem to become angry when someone narrows that gap between money paid and value received. We tend to disparage under bidders who made us pay more or snipe programs that gave us yet another second place. We call this unfair. But is it unfair or is it simply frustration that we lost out on a perceived super deal? After all, going into the transaction we had a "secret" drop-dead price that we were willing to pay. If that same coin were available via a one on one transaction we would most likely pay our pre-determined price. But just because we didn't get it for less than our drop dead price on Ebay or another auction forum we immediately want to blame other people and other things.
Sure, shill bidding is illegal as defined by Ebay and others. But, in the larger picture, what does it matter if any under bidder pushes you to your bid limit, shiller or otherwise? If you were initially willing to make the deal at x dollars and if you get it for x dollars then you should be happy. If you go beyond your own perception of value in order to "win" and then cry foul afterwards, then shame on you. You're only giving the shillers what they want.
To me, circulating the coin, trying to spark real interest is fair game. I see nothing wrong with that. The only thing that would be problematic is if the bids weren't "real" bids, but attempts to drive the price up artificially. That, I'd have a problem with, because that's shilling. In my mind, the question isn't whether FairTraderz (or anyone else) shops a coin around. The issue is whether or not the dealer is asking for people to bid for the coin to buy it, or just asking for people to bid the price up, with the understanding that they won't have to pay if they win. As I said, frequent bidders that seem to bid only on each other's coins would scream "shill" to me.
If you haven't noticed, I'm single and miserable and I've got four albums of bitching about it that I would offer as proof.
<< <i>Sure, shill bidding is illegal as defined by Ebay and others. But, in the larger picture, what does it matter if any under bidder pushes you to your bid limit, shiller or otherwise? If you were initially willing to make the deal at x dollars and if you get it for x dollars then you should be happy. If you go beyond your own perception of value in order to "win" and then cry foul afterwards, then shame on you. You're only giving the shillers what they want. >>
It matters a great deal. The point of an auction format is to have a piece bought and sold based on genuine demand and interest. If you artificially inflate the demand, it does two things:
1) It forces the bidder to pay more. 2) It gives the bidder a mistaken impression about the item's real market value.
It's not just about the price you pay. It's about the price you can realize for the piece later. Shill bidding creates a false impression of demand. The coin is only worth what it can legitimately bring at auction.
It doesn't matter if the coin is shilled up to $10 or $10,000. If the bidder ends up paying an inflated price, they got scammed.
Personally, I would not enter into a deal or bid on a coin with a person who thought shill bidding was okay.
If you haven't noticed, I'm single and miserable and I've got four albums of bitching about it that I would offer as proof.
I'm not saying that shill bidding is okay nor am I defending it. What I'm saying is that there ought to be no external forces that would influence the amount of money you are willing to pay for the coin. The amount of money you're willing to pay should be known by you in advance. If you get it for less, great. If you pay what you thought you should pay, then great too. It's only after you exceed your own rules that anger and frustration occurs. Remember, you always have the option of not bidding. And you have the opiton of doing business with only those you choose to do business with.
<< <i>I'm not saying that shill bidding is okay nor am I defending it. What I'm saying is that there ought to be no external forces that would influence the amount of money you are willing to pay for the coin. The amount of money you're willing to pay should be known by you in advance. If you get it for less, great. If you pay what you thought you should pay, then great too. It's only after you exceed your own rules that anger and frustration occurs. Remember, you always have the option of not bidding. And you have the opiton of doing business with only those you choose to do business with. >>
The problem is that people do their research on what they should be willing to pay based at least partially on Ebay. I was looking yesterday at Buffalo Nickels, to see if I could afford a good one. What happens if I was looking at shill auctions? I'd end up willing to pay more for a coin, based on what it went for at auction. Now, if there were 20 of a particular item, and you could tell that the shill auction was a clear outlayer, that would be one thing. But if it was a scarcer item, I might only find one item (a Buffalo of a particular year at a particular grade, for example) listed. So the shill bidding that happened in an auction I didn't even participate in would influence how I bid. It could really become self-perpetuating.
In other words, the shill bids inflate the market, leading people to pay more than they should. Is some of the onus on the bidder? Sure. But when the environment is so corrupted by shady dealings, it's hard to blame the buyer for it.
If you haven't noticed, I'm single and miserable and I've got four albums of bitching about it that I would offer as proof.
<< <i>That's what happened to me, I bought a coin from Fairtraderz on e-bay, and then they never delivered the coin. My guess, they sold it at a show doing exactly what Laura is talking about.
Oh yeah, they gave me negative feedback over the deal. Any way you slice it, this is not a dealer I would recommend, nor trust. >>
Very interesting considering the 500 post thread the other day...
People seem to be turning their "worry and fear and suspicion" into a crime on this thread. If companies bid on each others coins and actually pay for them when "won" -- no problem. If they are sharing secret reserve info -- or have other back channel deceptive practices (like free returns on anything won, or cancelation of legitimate bids), then there is a problem. Showing your eBay coins to dealers at a show is not a crime.
<< <i>But I can tell you, there are people who do just bid in every sale. >>
I don't bid much or look much on eBay these days but I do remember seeing the same people bidding on lots of stuff [esp Morgans] but rarely winning. I wonder if they are really hoping just to win some auctions at lowball prices.
<< <i>I also feel the business is overrepresented by ethically challenged dealers >>
Well said--the coin biz is comprised of some great folks, some so-so's and some slimeballs IMO. >>
From what I've observed in my many years, that goes double from what I've observed in the legal profession, Mr. Bigtime.
As far as the original post from Roger goes, I see NOTHING in the fact that fairtraderz bids on First American's (Bob Hughes) inventory that smacks in any way of shill bidding. You may not approve of the way Mr Schuch (fairtraderz) handled that auction wherein he refused to honor a valid winning bid, and I don't like it either, but why stir up the pot for no reason?
Laura is right. What has happened in the auctions referred to by Roger, the OP, doesn't begin to wave any red flags re: shill bidding. Heck, I have lots of customers that frequently bid on items I have on eBay. Sometimes they win something, sometimes not, but they are certainly not shilling for me.
<< <i>Thanks for mentioning the mob ganging up on little ol me, Shane, over there. Hopefully folks here will check that out, see how you guys conduct yourselves. He was wrong, but everyone jumped on me. And no one over there has ever questioned one of his coins or images.
Pretty ironic, the peace dollar seller/imager in this week's thread, suggesting over there that my coin was AT, while the folks here were complimentary. Completely different picture than the one you guys try to paint of yourselves.
Poor form, all around, by the toner forum bunch. >>
I dont think the mob ganged up on you at all.....I personally thought your comments to Gary were way out of line considering a simple question was asked and you blew your top like a raving lunatic.....a few and I mean a few folks stuck up for Gary as yes he is a friend of ours but then you jump on the band wagon when folks question his photo's and hadleydog posts images from your auctions which frankly....show coins that glow in the dark as well? I think hipocrit is the word that comes to mind which I am sure is how you felt about Gary when he questioned the authenticy of your coins toning......hence the reason I did not come out guns blazing on you. I would be thrilled for members of this or any other forum to come over to the TCCS to see how we conduct ourselves as it is a wonderful place to come and share coin experiences and new purchases while learning from a great bunch of guys! Is it perfect....not quite but close to it unless you thrive on flame fest....you'd be disappointed since they don't occur over there with any frequency.
As for the members over here being complimentary to your toned coin....you must have a few screws loose because every member over there was complimentary to your coin except for Gary's one question....is it real? So what the heck are you talking about......your losing it seriously dude. If it's poor form to stick up for a friend then I hope all of my friends have poor form if someone ever slams me without me knowing about it.
Finally I would like to point out that you stated that Gary was probably upset that one of his friends posted that coin over here...........ask Dizzy if he has ever dealt with Gary in any way? As far as I know they aren't friends or even mild acquaintances and yet you are painting a picture of some sort of good old boys network. If you don't like the way we conduct ourselves across the street.....please feel free to lose your password and stay the heck away from our little slice of the internet.....I am sure you will be welcomed here with open arms
What is being missed here is that fairtraderz and coinmaster02 are bidding on justgreatcoins, and no other sellers' auctions. That's what I have a problem with. While it might be entirely legit, and the auctions where those guys won perhaps were completed (paid and delivered), it gives the appearance of shilling. If this is not shilling by intent, it is at least de facto shilling. If it was 50+ of justgreatcoins's auctions and 50 or so other random sellers' auctions, I'd be perfectly fine with it.
Weren't these guys busted in the past for shilling? The memory fades...
This is not shill bidding. While the dealers who viewed these coins in person have a leg up on those who are chasing these via ebay pictures...it is certainly not shill bidding......
Anyone that has walked by fairtraderz table at a show knows that the guy must rent a Uhual to bring all his inventory to a show...boxes and boxes of slabs. A large portion of his inventory is on ebay at times. When I lived in Sacramento, I could have done the same thing- looked at the stuff, taken my notes and bid accordingly via ebay with having the advantage of a sight seen look. Then according to some sluething, it would look like I was a shill bidder for Fairtraderz....having placed multiple bids using my sight seen advantage.
While I think some of Fairtraderz's staff validate the peter principle, it's not shill bidding.....
<< <i>Ok, enough with all of the "protect your fellow dealer cover-up's", already...
It's long past time for someone to reveal the sordid, secret, juicy, inside truth/story about what really happened :
A dealer who had coins for sale on Ebay chose to show the coins to various dealers at a major show in the hopes that they would bid on his coins. Some of the viewers chose to bid, and others chose not to. I, too, viewed a number of the coins, but didn't see any which I cared to bid on. It wasn't that they weren't decent (or better) coins - they just weren't what I was looking for.
The dealers who bid on a large number of items would not have done so had they not believed/known that the sales were legitimate, as they wouldn't want to waste their time. And, they will no doubt happily honor any winning bids. That is NOT schilling or unethical activity. Rather, it is honest, hard work on the part of the seller.
To anyone who now knows the facts (whether you choose to believe them or not) and still has a problem with such activity - please explain how that was different (in a bad way) from the common practice of the major auction firms' taking coins to a show in advance of a sale, and showing the coins to potential bidders in the hopes of generating additional bids and higher prices? >>
What is being missed here is that fairtraderz and coinmaster02 are bidding on justgreatcoins, and no other sellers' auctions.
Most dealers are smart enough not to bid on coins sight unseen - can you name any other ebay sellers who bring their coins around the bourse floor to be previewed and then enter the bids for you?
<< <i>To anyone who now knows the facts (whether you choose to believe them or not) and still has a problem with such activity - please explain how that was different (in a bad way) from the common practice of the major auction firms' taking coins to a show in advance of a sale, and showing the coins to potential bidders in the hopes of generating additional bids and higher prices? >>
I don't believe that the issue of allowing prospective bidders the opportunity of previewing one's auction items is the major issue here and I KNOW that Heritage is smart enough to know that most bidders WILL NOT bid strong $$ for expensive coins sight UNSEEN. Hell if I go to a local farm estate sale I can look over the item up for auction BEFORE the auction starts.
boy there seems to be a lot of sour grapes here over this...Is this situation any different then the following hypothetical-
Someone locally,maybe even a board member shows me a bundle of coins and tells me he/she is putting them up on ebay for liquidating. So I take a look at all of them, take my notes and then when he/she puts up the auctions I place bids on multiple lots. A review of my bid history could potentially look like I was just running up the bids for the seller, especially since we were both in the same region of the country...would I be a shill bidder?Or just someone going after some coins.
Like I said 101 post ago, "Who cares" if Fairtraderz only bids on coins from Justgreatcoins.
What is the difference if a member of this forum has a coin for sale on eBay and post it on the BST Forum and then TTT it every day. When members of this forum bids on the auction, do you call it shilling just because it was listed on the BST Board? I look at it that a member has just told me that there might be an action on eBay that I might be interested in, nothing more. If Justgreatcoins wants to show his coins to other dealers before listing them on eBay, what is the difference? The way Fairtraderz was raked over the coals last month (rightly so), maybe they are fussy on who they bid from, again who cares. Let's get down to some good gossip, any news about the affair between Laura and MadMarty?
<< <i>Someone locally,maybe even a board member shows me a bundle of coins and tells me he/she is putting them up on ebay for liquidating. So I take a look at all of them, take my notes and then when he/she puts up the auctions I place bids on multiple lots. A review of my bid history could potentially look like I was just running up the bids for the seller, especially since we were both in the same region of the country...would I be a shill bidder?Or just someone going after some coins. >>
I guess if someone wants to examine the dates and times of a large number of extremely selective bids then one could probably infer if the explanation put forth here for that activity [shopping his listings around] is plausible or not. If the bidding pattern suggests that yes; Joe Blow could have sat down and placed those 50 bids in 20 minutes then the explanation is suppported. I can tell you that I will not waste time doing it.
What is being missed here is that fairtraderz and coinmaster02 are bidding on justgreatcoins, and no other sellers' auctions. That's what I have a problem with. While it might be entirely legit, and the auctions where those guys won perhaps were completed (paid and delivered), it gives the appearance of shilling. If this is not shilling by intent, it is at least de facto shilling. If it was 50+ of justgreatcoins's auctions and 50 or so other random sellers' auctions, I'd be perfectly fine with it. >>
This point seems to be gettin lost the longer this thread gets.
And mentioning Hertiage, David Lawrence, etc. is irrelevant, as shilling those auctions does not violate thier rules.
Shilling is a violation of Ebay rules. And whether you call such activity shilling or not, it sets a de-facto reserve on these "no reserve" auctions, and enables the seller to avoid reserve fees.
Also are the bid amounts commensurate with what a dealer might reasonably expect to be able to buy the coins for and if so how many auctions are the bidders winning with that approach?
<< <i>Additionally, soliciting bids in the manner which was employed did not compromise the "no reserve" auctions or avoid reserve fees. None of the persons who viewed the coins were >>
By getting someone to bid a certain minimum amount on many auctions one probably does not NEED to use the reserve feature; so if you don't need to use it you don't have to pay for it and you can therefore "avoid the reserve fee". There is nothing wrong with shopping your wares around at a show to drum up bids as long as those bids get placed for the "right" reasons.
Nothing wrong with a dealer/seller showing coins to anyone, anywhere, anytime & then asking them to bid on those coins on eBay. Just another way of marketing and creating interest.
Nothing wrong with the dealer even entering the bids for the other dealer (i.e. bidder) as long as the bids are REAL AND what the bidder is willing to pay to ACTUALLY complete the sale (& assuming the bidder wants to part with their password).
Of course, if this were true, on a continuum, the appearance of impropriety is being gotten closer to as opposed to further from.
BUT, if one were to characterize the bids here as "wholesale" bids that will most probably not be high enough to win the auctions, why would the seller even want them?
p.s. I never said or accused anyone in this thread of shill bidding.
<< <i>Shilling is a violation of Ebay rules. And whether you call such activity shilling or not, it sets a de-facto reserve on these "no reserve" auctions, and enables the seller to avoid reserve fees. >>
Yes, shilling is a violation of Ebay rules, but schilling was not involved. Additionally, soliciting bids in the manner which was employed did not compromise the "no reserve" auctions or avoid reserve fees. None of the persons who viewed the coins were obligated to bid at all, much less any particular minimum or "reserve" amount. >>
When the end result is activity cited by the OP (large volume eBay seller bidding on one and only one other sellers auctions), it appears to be a form of reserve fee avoidance regardless of whether one calls it shilling or not.
No one is disagreeing with Mark I don't believe. First off the thread is NOT about shopping your coins around; its about whether or not a certain bidding pattern is or could be construed to be "shill bidding" especially from one who has been known to be involved in such activity in the past. Shopping one's wares around was only offered as ONE explanation for the bidding activity. A detailed examination of the bids and times as well as the IP addy from which they were placed could support or derail the "shopping around' explanation.
<< <i>No one is disagreeing with Mark I don't believe >>
Tom, I think some posters to this thread have indeed disagreed with my viewpoint, by equating showing the coins to dealers and soliciting their bids, to schilling, etc. >>
Mark, one more time, it's shilling, not schilling.
<< <i>As one of the dealers who viewed the coins, I can say that I was not asked to bid just to bid , help out the seller, etc., or anything like that. >>
The question here is whether there is a closed loop or not.
a) Were a copy of your bids left with you? b) Did you get a copy of the winning bids? c) Did you verify that the coins actually sold to the highest bidder, if that was you?
Had all your bids been entered on ebay in the first place, I could be more sure about the answers to these questions. The issue isn't whether this scheme is legitimate or not - we have credible dealers here who have no problem with it - the issue is one of public perception.
I don't see anything wrong with a dealer shopping his inventory and soliciting bids for his auctions. Seems to me to be smart business practice.
However, the average eBay bidder who happens by justgreatcoins' auctions does not have the benefit of this knowledge. All they would see is that fairtraderz has bid only in justgreatcoins' auctions and out of all those bids placed has won only two. Without knowing the background, this situation creates a very real appearance of impropriety.
Without reading all the posts to this thread, I just think that if everyone who has been involved with/gave a wink to a friend/or participated in a wee little bit of shill bidding were to be struck down dead by lightning-----there would be a few less posters on these boards------ Don't throw stones if you live in .......you know....
** WARNING -- ADVICE FOR COLLECTORS -- DEALERS DO NOT READ! **
I just can't help but interject here again: determine what you are willing to spend for a coin and place your bid, win or lose. You should research past sales, rarity, availability of the coin, the importance of it to you, and then you are prepared to bid for yourself.
There are millions of ways to sell things -- not just coins -- and many, many schemes, tactics, and practices to maximize profit. You have to ask yourself when you are a bidder/buyer, "am I so weak in knowledge and experience that I can be swayed by any of these schemes/tactics/practices?" If the answer is yes, then get the advice of a disinterested party before you do the deal. Many times I have asked other collectors and dealers what they think a coin is worth. Sometimes I agree with them, and other times I disagree. The point is that I usually do some research before placing my bids.
As far a shilling, forget about the legal concepts, ebay policies, etc. The true reason that shilling is not right is because it may lead someone to believe that other legitimate buyers out there believe the coin is worth more, when in fact that is not the case. First, if you are bidding based on what other people are bidding, you are using a poor method of determining how to place your bids. Second, I don't see anything regarding the Hughes bidding scenarios that suggest that any of the bids are illegitimate.
Research your purchases and use some self control when bidding. If you have trouble with self control, use some safeguards to protect yourself against yourself, like using a snipe program on Ebay with your maximum bid and forget about it until the auction ends. Same with Heritage. Stay off the floor and bid through the internet with your maximum secret bid. You will be much happier when you win an auction lot, and won't second guess whether you paid too much.
Now forget about what the dealers are doing, and focus on what you are doing.
Comments
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>
<< <i>Really? So you see nothing wrong with bidding on your own auction? Or having others bid on your auction just so it will run up the final selling price?
Do you practice this by chance? >>
My eBay ID is spiritunbroken. Go check me out, cupcake. I really ate it on the aesacus I sold, incidentally. On the few things I sell, I either do a $0.99 no reserve or I start the auction at or about what I think a fair price is. Really, go check me out. I don't have a single thing to hide. >>
"Cupcake?" If you're going to call me that you're going to have to pony up dinner first.
Did I accuse you of shilling? Well, did I? I asked you if you practice shilling because of your comment:
<< <i> Am I the only one who has no issue with shilling? I don't understand why folks get their panties in a bundle over it. >>
Your words, not mine. You said you have "no issue with shilling."
<< <i>"Cupcake?" If you're going to call me that you're going to have to pony up dinner first.
>>
<< <i>"Cupcake?" If you're going to call me that you're going to have to pony up dinner first. >>
Fine, but don't be tease afterwards. I'm not going to believe you have to be home by 8 o'clock.
<< <i>
<< <i>"Cupcake?" If you're going to call me that you're going to have to pony up dinner first. >>
Fine, but don't be tease afterwards. I'm not going to believe you have to be home by 8 o'clock. >>
Ok, sweetcheeks.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>"Cupcake?" If you're going to call me that you're going to have to pony up dinner first. >>
Fine, but don't be tease afterwards. I'm not going to believe you have to be home by 8 o'clock. >>
Ok, sweetcheeks.
Ewwwwww...
This is getting sick
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Who cares??? >>
Obviously someone does or it wouldn't have been asked.
<< <i>Thanks for mentioning the mob ganging up on little ol me, Shane, over there. Hopefully folks here will check that out, see how you guys conduct yourselves. He was wrong, but everyone jumped on me. And no one over there has ever questioned one of his coins or images.
Pretty ironic, the peace dollar seller/imager in this week's thread, suggesting over there that my coin was AT, while the folks here were complimentary. Completely different picture than the one you guys try to paint of yourselves.
Poor form, all around, by the toner forum bunch. >>
Nobody jumped all over you on the TCCS boards, pharmer (Yes, you are/were a member). Here's the thread junkcoin.
I think you got your panties in a knot when the authenticity of a toner you are asking 6k for was questioned. Ironic thing is, the comment was made in jest. Your behaviour on those boards following that thread would have had you bammed here.
<< <i>Are you people really that ignorant?
No, I am NOT just sticking up for another dealer.
>>
yes laura, they are
they are also of the same breed that likes to poke caged animals
maybe turn on the tv or read a book, instead of being so bored you need to lob air biscuits at will
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Seems to me that such a simple note in the listing would be a good thing, and would even give a bidder more confidence in making a purchase, sight unseen. The absence of such a note makes me wonder. In addition, the private viewing puts certian bidders at an advantage, and others at disadvantage, and goes against the true spirit of an auction.
Of course, the above is only my opinion,
Jim
<< <i>I would equate it to posting ones wares on the b/s/t board. you are essentially asking for bids there. >>
hmmmmm.......
this is indeed true..............
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
However, I think many miss the fundamental tenets of our collecting pursuits.
1. Buy from others in whom you have faith and trust.
2. Pay no more than what value you assign to the coin.
I think the anger with shill bidders comes from the buyers own lack of discipline in that they move from objective analysis of what the coin is worth to them (and only them) to the "irrational exuberance" of a "must win" mentality. While we all want to "pay less and get more", we seem to become angry when someone narrows that gap between money paid and value received. We tend to disparage under bidders who made us pay more or snipe programs that gave us yet another second place. We call this unfair. But is it unfair or is it simply frustration that we lost out on a perceived super deal? After all, going into the transaction we had a "secret" drop-dead price that we were willing to pay. If that same coin were available via a one on one transaction we would most likely pay our pre-determined price. But just because we didn't get it for less than our drop dead price on Ebay or another auction forum we immediately want to blame other people and other things.
Sure, shill bidding is illegal as defined by Ebay and others. But, in the larger picture, what does it matter if any under bidder pushes you to your bid limit, shiller or otherwise? If you were initially willing to make the deal at x dollars and if you get it for x dollars then you should be happy. If you go beyond your own perception of value in order to "win" and then cry foul afterwards, then shame on you. You're only giving the shillers what they want.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>Sure, shill bidding is illegal as defined by Ebay and others. But, in the larger picture, what does it matter if any under bidder pushes you to your bid limit, shiller or otherwise? If you were initially willing to make the deal at x dollars and if you get it for x dollars then you should be happy. If you go beyond your own perception of value in order to "win" and then cry foul afterwards, then shame on you. You're only giving the shillers what they want. >>
It matters a great deal. The point of an auction format is to have a piece bought and sold based on genuine demand and interest. If you artificially inflate the demand, it does two things:
1) It forces the bidder to pay more.
2) It gives the bidder a mistaken impression about the item's real market value.
It's not just about the price you pay. It's about the price you can realize for the piece later. Shill bidding creates a false impression of demand. The coin is only worth what it can legitimately bring at auction.
It doesn't matter if the coin is shilled up to $10 or $10,000. If the bidder ends up paying an inflated price, they got scammed.
Personally, I would not enter into a deal or bid on a coin with a person who thought shill bidding was okay.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>I'm not saying that shill bidding is okay nor am I defending it. What I'm saying is that there ought to be no external forces that would influence the amount of money you are willing to pay for the coin. The amount of money you're willing to pay should be known by you in advance. If you get it for less, great. If you pay what you thought you should pay, then great too. It's only after you exceed your own rules that anger and frustration occurs. Remember, you always have the option of not bidding. And you have the opiton of doing business with only those you choose to do business with. >>
The problem is that people do their research on what they should be willing to pay based at least partially on Ebay. I was looking yesterday at Buffalo Nickels, to see if I could afford a good one. What happens if I was looking at shill auctions? I'd end up willing to pay more for a coin, based on what it went for at auction. Now, if there were 20 of a particular item, and you could tell that the shill auction was a clear outlayer, that would be one thing. But if it was a scarcer item, I might only find one item (a Buffalo of a particular year at a particular grade, for example) listed. So the shill bidding that happened in an auction I didn't even participate in would influence how I bid. It could really become self-perpetuating.
In other words, the shill bids inflate the market, leading people to pay more than they should. Is some of the onus on the bidder? Sure. But when the environment is so corrupted by shady dealings, it's hard to blame the buyer for it.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>That's what happened to me, I bought a coin from Fairtraderz on e-bay, and then they
never delivered the coin. My guess, they sold it at a show doing exactly what Laura is
talking about.
Oh yeah, they gave me negative feedback over the deal. Any way you slice it, this is
not a dealer I would recommend, nor trust. >>
Very interesting considering the 500 post thread the other day...
<< <i>I also feel the business is overrepresented by ethically challenged dealers >>
Well said--the coin biz is comprised of some great folks, some so-so's and some slimeballs IMO.
<< <i>But I can tell you, there are people who do just bid in every sale. >>
I don't bid much or look much on eBay these days but I do remember seeing the same people bidding on lots of stuff [esp Morgans] but rarely winning. I wonder if they are really hoping just to win some auctions at lowball prices.
<< <i>
<< <i>I also feel the business is overrepresented by ethically challenged dealers >>
Well said--the coin biz is comprised of some great folks, some so-so's and some slimeballs IMO. >>
From what I've observed in my many years, that goes double from what I've observed in the legal profession, Mr. Bigtime.
As far as the original post from Roger goes, I see NOTHING in the fact that fairtraderz bids on First American's (Bob Hughes) inventory that smacks in any way of shill bidding. You may not approve of the way Mr Schuch (fairtraderz) handled that auction wherein he refused to honor a valid winning bid, and I don't like it either, but why stir up the pot for no reason?
Laura is right. What has happened in the auctions referred to by Roger, the OP, doesn't begin to wave any red flags re: shill bidding. Heck, I have lots of customers that frequently bid on items I have on eBay. Sometimes they win something, sometimes not, but they are certainly not shilling for me.
Ira
<< <i>Instead of trying to catch a shill, why don't all of you folks just figure out what a coin is worth to you and place your bid, win or lose? >>
Because then they wouldn't have an ebay b1tching thread!
<< <i>Thanks for mentioning the mob ganging up on little ol me, Shane, over there. Hopefully folks here will check that out, see how you guys conduct yourselves. He was wrong, but everyone jumped on me. And no one over there has ever questioned one of his coins or images.
Pretty ironic, the peace dollar seller/imager in this week's thread, suggesting over there that my coin was AT, while the folks here were complimentary. Completely different picture than the one you guys try to paint of yourselves.
Poor form, all around, by the toner forum bunch. >>
I dont think the mob ganged up on you at all.....I personally thought your comments to Gary were way out of line considering a simple question was asked and you blew your top like a raving lunatic.....a few and I mean a few folks stuck up for Gary as yes he is a friend of ours but then you jump on the band wagon when folks question his photo's and hadleydog posts images from your auctions which frankly....show coins that glow in the dark as well? I think hipocrit is the word that comes to mind which I am sure is how you felt about Gary when he questioned the authenticy of your coins toning......hence the reason I did not come out guns blazing on you. I would be thrilled for members of this or any other forum to come over to the TCCS to see how we conduct ourselves as it is a wonderful place to come and share coin experiences and new purchases while learning from a great bunch of guys! Is it perfect....not quite but close to it unless you thrive on flame fest....you'd be disappointed since they don't occur over there with any frequency.
As for the members over here being complimentary to your toned coin....you must have a few screws loose because every member over there was complimentary to your coin except for Gary's one question....is it real? So what the heck are you talking about......your losing it seriously dude. If it's poor form to stick up for a friend then I hope all of my friends have poor form if someone ever slams me without me knowing about it.
Finally I would like to point out that you stated that Gary was probably upset that one of his friends posted that coin over here...........ask Dizzy if he has ever dealt with Gary in any way? As far as I know they aren't friends or even mild acquaintances and yet you are painting a picture of some sort of good old boys network. If you don't like the way we conduct ourselves across the street.....please feel free to lose your password and stay the heck away from our little slice of the internet.....I am sure you will be welcomed here with open arms
<< <i>What am I missing here? >>
What is being missed here is that fairtraderz and coinmaster02 are bidding on justgreatcoins, and no other sellers' auctions. That's what I have a problem with. While it might be entirely legit, and the auctions where those guys won perhaps were completed (paid and delivered), it gives the appearance of shilling. If this is not shilling by intent, it is at least de facto shilling. If it was 50+ of justgreatcoins's auctions and 50 or so other random sellers' auctions, I'd be perfectly fine with it.
Weren't these guys busted in the past for shilling? The memory fades...
This is not shill bidding. While the dealers who viewed these coins in person have a leg up on those who are chasing these via ebay pictures...it is certainly not shill bidding......
Anyone that has walked by fairtraderz table at a show knows that the guy must rent a Uhual to bring all his inventory to a show...boxes and boxes of slabs. A large portion of his inventory is on ebay at times. When I lived in Sacramento, I could have done the same thing- looked at the stuff, taken my notes and bid accordingly via ebay with having the advantage of a sight seen look. Then according to some sluething, it would look like I was a shill bidder for Fairtraderz....having placed multiple bids using my sight seen advantage.
While I think some of Fairtraderz's staff validate the peter principle, it's not shill bidding.....
<< <i>Ok, enough with all of the "protect your fellow dealer cover-up's", already...
It's long past time for someone to reveal the sordid, secret, juicy, inside truth/story about what really happened
A dealer who had coins for sale on Ebay chose to show the coins to various dealers at a major show in the hopes that they would bid on his coins. Some of the viewers chose to bid, and others chose not to. I, too, viewed a number of the coins, but didn't see any which I cared to bid on. It wasn't that they weren't decent (or better) coins - they just weren't what I was looking for.
The dealers who bid on a large number of items would not have done so had they not believed/known that the sales were legitimate, as they wouldn't want to waste their time. And, they will no doubt happily honor any winning bids. That is NOT schilling or unethical activity. Rather, it is honest, hard work on the part of the seller.
To anyone who now knows the facts (whether you choose to believe them or not) and still has a problem with such activity - please explain how that was different (in a bad way) from the common practice of the major auction firms' taking coins to a show in advance of a sale, and showing the coins to potential bidders in the hopes of generating additional bids and higher prices? >>
How dare you come here and make sense!
Can't you see the ugly mob???
Most dealers are smart enough not to bid on coins sight unseen - can you name any other ebay sellers who bring their coins around the bourse floor to be previewed and then enter the bids for you?
<< <i>can you name any other ebay sellers who bring their coins around the bourse floor to be previewed and then enter the bids for you? >>
There is NO WAY IN HELL that I would give those guys my eBay password to bid for me.
<< <i>To anyone who now knows the facts (whether you choose to believe them or not) and still has a problem with such activity - please explain how that was different (in a bad way) from the common practice of the major auction firms' taking coins to a show in advance of a sale, and showing the coins to potential bidders in the hopes of generating additional bids and higher prices? >>
I don't believe that the issue of allowing prospective bidders the opportunity of previewing one's auction items is the major issue here and I KNOW that Heritage is smart enough to know that most bidders WILL NOT bid strong $$ for expensive coins sight UNSEEN. Hell if I go to a local farm estate sale I can look over the item up for auction BEFORE the auction starts.
Someone locally,maybe even a board member shows me a bundle of coins and tells me he/she is putting them up on ebay for liquidating. So I take a look at all of them, take my notes and then when he/she puts up the auctions I place bids on multiple lots. A review of my bid history could potentially look like I was just running up the bids for the seller, especially since we were both in the same region of the country...would I be a shill bidder?Or just someone going after some coins.
There is no difference imho
What is the difference if a member of this forum has a coin for sale on eBay and post it on the BST Forum and then TTT it every day. When members of this forum bids on the auction, do you call it shilling just because it was listed on the BST Board? I look at it that a member has just told me that there might be an action on eBay that I might be interested in, nothing more. If Justgreatcoins wants to show his coins to other dealers before listing them on eBay, what is the difference? The way Fairtraderz was raked over the coals last month (rightly so), maybe they are fussy on who they bid from, again who cares. Let's get down to some good gossip, any news about the affair between Laura and MadMarty?
<< <i>Someone locally,maybe even a board member shows me a bundle of coins and tells me he/she is putting them up on ebay for liquidating. So I take a look at all of them, take my notes and then when he/she puts up the auctions I place bids on multiple lots. A review of my bid history could potentially look like I was just running up the bids for the seller, especially since we were both in the same region of the country...would I be a shill bidder?Or just someone going after some coins. >>
I guess if someone wants to examine the dates and times of a large number of extremely selective bids then one could probably infer if the explanation put forth here for that activity [shopping his listings around] is plausible or not. If the bidding pattern suggests that yes; Joe Blow could have sat down and placed those 50 bids in 20 minutes then the explanation is suppported. I can tell you that I will not waste time doing it.
<< <i>
<< <i>What am I missing here? >>
What is being missed here is that fairtraderz and coinmaster02 are bidding on justgreatcoins, and no other sellers' auctions. That's what I have a problem with. While it might be entirely legit, and the auctions where those guys won perhaps were completed (paid and delivered), it gives the appearance of shilling. If this is not shilling by intent, it is at least de facto shilling. If it was 50+ of justgreatcoins's auctions and 50 or so other random sellers' auctions, I'd be perfectly fine with it.
>>
This point seems to be gettin lost the longer this thread gets.
And mentioning Hertiage, David Lawrence, etc. is irrelevant, as shilling those auctions does not violate thier rules.
Shilling is a violation of Ebay rules. And whether you call such activity shilling or not, it sets a de-facto reserve on these "no reserve" auctions, and enables the seller to avoid reserve fees.
<< <i>Additionally, soliciting bids in the manner which was employed did not compromise the "no reserve" auctions or avoid reserve fees. None of the persons who viewed the coins were >>
By getting someone to bid a certain minimum amount on many auctions one probably does not NEED to use the reserve feature; so if you don't need to use it you don't have to pay for it and you can therefore "avoid the reserve fee". There is nothing wrong with shopping your wares around at a show to drum up bids as long as those bids get placed for the "right" reasons.
Nothing wrong with the dealer even entering the bids for the other dealer (i.e. bidder) as long as the bids are REAL AND what the bidder is willing to pay to ACTUALLY complete the sale (& assuming the bidder wants to part with their password).
Of course, if this were true, on a continuum, the appearance of impropriety is being gotten closer to as opposed to further from.
BUT, if one were to characterize the bids here as "wholesale" bids that will most probably not be high enough to win the auctions, why would the seller even want them?
p.s. I never said or accused anyone in this thread of shill bidding.
<< <i>
<< <i>Shilling is a violation of Ebay rules. And whether you call such activity shilling or not, it sets a de-facto reserve on these "no reserve" auctions, and enables the seller to avoid reserve fees. >>
Yes, shilling is a violation of Ebay rules, but schilling was not involved. Additionally, soliciting bids in the manner which was employed did not compromise the "no reserve" auctions or avoid reserve fees. None of the persons who viewed the coins were obligated to bid at all, much less any particular minimum or "reserve" amount. >>
When the end result is activity cited by the OP (large volume eBay seller bidding on one and only one other sellers auctions), it appears to be a form of reserve fee avoidance regardless of whether one calls it shilling or not.
Hey, this is a coin forum ain't it???
<< <i>
<< <i>No one is disagreeing with Mark I don't believe >>
Tom, I think some posters to this thread have indeed disagreed with my viewpoint, by equating showing the coins to dealers and soliciting their bids, to schilling, etc. >>
Mark, one more time, it's shilling, not schilling.
This is Schilling!
Out of all the bids, these are the only 2 fairtraderz "won":
1st item
8399137879 Mar-22-06 Apr-01-06 17:00:00 US $1,575.00 1903-S MORGAN DOLLAR NGC AU53 PQ fairtraderz (*) justgreatcoins
faretraderz got (but never left) feedback:
AAA+++ Good customer. Seller justgreatcoins ( 1244) Apr-13-06 15:45 8399137879
They're now selling it here ($425-725+ more):
http://cgi.ebay.com/S655-1903-S-NGC-AU53-MORGAN-SILVER-DOLLAR-WHITE_W0QQitemZ8410167381QQcategoryZ39466QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem started 4/19
The dates "seem" consistent.
2nd item:
8399543696 Mar-23-06 Apr-02-06 18:00:00 US $510.00 1949-D (FL) FRANKLIN HALF DOLLAR PCGS MS65 fairtraderz (*) justgreatcoins
Same feedback deal as above:
AAA+++ Good customer. Seller justgreatcoins ( 1244) Apr-13-06 15:45 8399543696
Listed it here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/S656-1949-D-PCGS-MS65FBL-FRANKLIN-HALF-DOLLAR-COLOR_W0QQitemZ8404983335QQcategoryZ11973QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ran 4/6-4/9
The dates "seem" (perhaps?) inconsistent but certainly no "proof" of anything.
Check THIS out (but be patient for it to load).
<< <i>As one of the dealers who viewed the coins, I can say that I was not asked to bid just to bid , help out the seller, etc., or anything like that. >>
The question here is whether there is a closed loop or not.
a) Were a copy of your bids left with you?
b) Did you get a copy of the winning bids?
c) Did you verify that the coins actually sold to the highest bidder, if that was you?
Had all your bids been entered on ebay in the first place, I could be more sure about the answers to these questions. The issue isn't whether this scheme is legitimate or not - we have credible dealers here who have no problem with it - the issue is one of public perception.
<< <i>Mark, one more time, it's shilling, not schilling.
This is Schilling!
This is also schilling:
However, the average eBay bidder who happens by justgreatcoins' auctions does not have the benefit of this knowledge. All they would see is that fairtraderz has bid only in justgreatcoins' auctions and out of all those bids placed has won only two. Without knowing the background, this situation creates a very real appearance of impropriety.
Russ, NCNE
Don't throw stones if you live in .......you know....
** WARNING -- ADVICE FOR COLLECTORS -- DEALERS DO NOT READ! **
I just can't help but interject here again: determine what you are willing to spend for a coin and place your bid, win or lose. You should research past sales, rarity, availability of the coin, the importance of it to you, and then you are prepared to bid for yourself.
There are millions of ways to sell things -- not just coins -- and many, many schemes, tactics, and practices to maximize profit. You have to ask yourself when you are a bidder/buyer, "am I so weak in knowledge and experience that I can be swayed by any of these schemes/tactics/practices?" If the answer is yes, then get the advice of a disinterested party before you do the deal. Many times I have asked other collectors and dealers what they think a coin is worth. Sometimes I agree with them, and other times I disagree. The point is that I usually do some research before placing my bids.
As far a shilling, forget about the legal concepts, ebay policies, etc. The true reason that shilling is not right is because it may lead someone to believe that other legitimate buyers out there believe the coin is worth more, when in fact that is not the case. First, if you are bidding based on what other people are bidding, you are using a poor method of determining how to place your bids. Second, I don't see anything regarding the Hughes bidding scenarios that suggest that any of the bids are illegitimate.
Research your purchases and use some self control when bidding. If you have trouble with self control, use some safeguards to protect yourself against yourself, like using a snipe program on Ebay with your maximum bid and forget about it until the auction ends. Same with Heritage. Stay off the floor and bid through the internet with your maximum secret bid. You will be much happier when you win an auction lot, and won't second guess whether you paid too much.
Now forget about what the dealers are doing, and focus on what you are doing.
Apologies if it has been posted before.
toolhaus.org