<< <i> He used to do that very well - but the times are changing. >>
CT, Rivera has had two bad games like he has done before in April. What do you say about tonight when he minced up the D-Rays? Are the times still-a-changin? If you say yes, then by all means we HAVE to use the same logic on Josh Beckett and Curt Schilling. With the kind of logic you are using I would be forced to say that Schilling sure showed his age the other night. I bet he has seen his last decent run in the game. And Beckett? 8 earned runs in 3 plus innings? Is that what is going to carry you to the postseason?
Now, I know better than that. Schilling is not done, Beckett had a BAD NIGHT, and all of the sudden Shawn Chacon's ERA is neck and neck with Becketts. See? ITS APRIL FOR CHRIST SAKE
<< <i> He used to do that very well - but the times are changing. >>
CT, Rivera has had two bad games like he has done before in April. What do you say about tonight when he minced up the D-Rays? Are the times still-a-changin? If you say yes, then by all means we HAVE to use the same logic on Josh Beckett and Curt Schilling. With the kind of logic you are using I would be forced to say that Schilling sure showed his age the other night. I bet he has seen his last decent run in the game. And Beckett? 8 earned runs in 3 plus innings? Is that what is going to carry you to the postseason?
Now, I know better than that. Schilling is not done, Beckett had a BAD NIGHT, and all of the sudden Shawn Chacon's ERA is neck and neck with Becketts. See? ITS APRIL FOR CHRIST SAKE >>
Couldnt have said it better myself. One thing needed to be understood in baseball, especially this early is that you are never as good as you look at your best, and never as bas as you look at your worst. That, along with that fact that the hitters have a HUGE advantage this time of year makes me not put much stock in pitching till the heat of late June/early July rolls around. Im sure by then Mariano will be right around his norm, as will Beckett for the Sox.
Another thing, what is with all the Cano bashing ?? Its not like this guy is that poor defensively. Nobody is going to give him a gold glove anytime soon, but he is solid enough, and more importantly to me, cool as can be. He can make a game blowing error and shake it off 5 seconds later where alot of other young players might take that to the plate with them, which obviously isnt the case with him. The people bashing Cano are the same ones who will be the first to post how the Yankees cant develope talent from their own system. I think you would be hard pressed to find a half dozen teams in baseball who wouldnt jump at the chance to get Cano.
While on the subject of developing talent from their system, can anyone tell me another team that has produced from their system and kept for 10 years players like Bernie, Jeter, Posada, and Rivera ?
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
don't leave out Pettitte either! And honorable mentions to Nick Johnson, Ramiro Mendoza, Ted Lilly, Mike Lowell. Yeah, the recent Yankee farm system has sucked
Well, one thing is for certain. If I were a Yankee fan, the last thing I would puff my chest out about would be the Yankee farm system! Posada, Rivera et al - this was 10 years ago. The Yankees basically admit they have no farm system, and would rather take the quicker route of signing players via free agency than wait for them to develop at the major league level. Cano? Please - he stinks defensively, he's mediocre offensively, and Joe Torre must have been hitting the sauce when he compared him to Rod Carew. He slipped through the farm system, I'm sure, because he was so nondescript that he had no trade value - or else, he'd be gone from NY.
Beckett got hit hard tonight, but it was indeed only one night, and this kid is going to lead the rotation in Boston for the next several years. I am sure mentioning him in the same breath with a hack like Chacon was just for humorous purposes...
Schilling looked pretty darn good even as he lost for the first time the other night (8K in 7 innings), and he is back to where he was pre-injury. Yes, it's April - and none of this means much until the summer starts, but on the subject of Rivera - you have to admit that a reliever who relies on the type of pitches he does is going to lose effectiveness as he gets older. His time is going to come - is it now? Could be, based on the early performances. He's been great though, perhaps the Yankees MVP of the past 5 years. There will be no way to replace what he has done for the Yankees when he's gone.
Well, for Cano stinking defensively, he's doing a pretty good job thus far! Only 1 error in 170+ innings...Im not going out on a limb saying that he is any defensive genius...but he is at least mediocre..but stink? no. And you won't hear any Yankees fans complaining about Cano's bat either! He's batting .343 with only 7K's this season! Yeah, there's tons more of season to go...even if Cano plays CLOSE to this all season then I for one will be very happy having Cano on the Yankees.
ctsox, why dont you watch a Yankee game and see Cano play before slamming him. The guy is not a gold glove fielder but he doesnt " stink " either. And to call him mediocre at the plate just shows how little you know what you speak of. If he were to play half his games in fenway he would end up a .350-.370 hitter slapping balls off the green monster all day.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
Cano a mediocre hitter CT?. Brother, there is NO DOUBT that you don't know what you are talking about. I mean, that is just plain silly. There is just no use arguing a point when one half is in the dark room. The reason he sped through the Yankee farm sysem is becuase of that sweet swing of his. You will witness it CT, when you finally see him play.
<< <i> Beckett got hit hard tonight, but it was indeed only one night, and this kid is going to lead the rotation in Boston for the next several years. I am sure mentioning him in the same breath with a hack like Chacon was just for humorous purposes...
>>
Ct, do you even watch the players you speak of? Ever? And Mo has been the Yankee MVP the last 10 seasons. Not 5.
Hey, don't forget that my Blue Jays scored five runs against Beckett in his previous start too. He really must be done
We'll see how much the Red Sox fans hate the Yankees farm system once Willy Mo Pena starts hitting bombs for them.
As I mentioned I'm a Blue Jays fan, I respect both the Yankees and Red Sox organizations, but the Yankees do seem to take a disproportionate amount of bashing on here.
I'm looking forward to a great series this weekend!
Why is everyone eager to forget Cano's debacle of a season last year at second base?
Can you say 17 errors? Can you say 'thank god Soriano is worse?' Cano was second in the league behind Soriano in errors, and his fielding percentage was an abysmal .975. Yes, he's solid! Instead, you prefer to focus on the tiny, tiny sample size of 20 games and say he's great.
Look, I know you yankee fans are desperate, desperate I say, to prove you haven't sold out every single good prospect in the last 10 years, but Cano is your defense? Please try harder.
Softy, no one was saying the yankees farm system sucked, we are saying the yankees are so eager to win now they aren't willing to develop their talent, they'd prefer to trade it away and sign overpriced, aging veterans (hello! Damon! hello! Big Unit). You can only do this for so long before you have no one left to trade (which is the wall the Yankees have found themselves against the past few years).
Are you saying that it is impossible that Cano can improve?
Put yourself in Cano's shoes...the largest stage in all of sports and youre a rookie coming in to replace a veteran. No one expected him to be a defensive wizard. Yes, 20 games is a small sample but what we are happy about is the improvement and adjustment thus far and hoping he will continue to improve. What is the difference of a Mariners fan being pleased when Felix Rodriguez does well and a Yankees fan is pleased when Cano does well? To you, it only has to do with Cano being a Yankee but in reality it's no different.
Yes, we know, you hate the Yankees and its your childish propoganda....all it shows is your pea brain knowledge of baseball and what its like to be a dedicated fan. I can not call someone who pays more attention to a team he hates more than the team he roots for "dedicated" so spare me of your nonsense.
I simply was pointing out over a much larger sample size his rate of errors was significantly higher. Yes he's had a fabulous april. But on one hand you want to slam those of us criticizing those doing poorly in april, you want to sing the praises of Cano because he's had one error in 20 games.
The problem with your statement is that you and a few select others (you especially) have slammed players for having one or two bad days, not bad Aprils.
Johnson is 3-2 with a 3.73 ERA and 23 K's...and may I add ONLY 3 walks. That isnt a pitcher with April numbers who is "done". I dont think anyone really doubts that even those numbers will improve. Not only that, he has moved from the National League to the toughest division in all of baseball....and no pitchers to face at the bottom of the lineup.
Yankees may not have the best starting pitching staff in the league but I wouldnt call it "bad".
Lets see where we are when the weather warms up and we are at the AS break. If anyone is sucking by then, I'll be the first to say to get rid of the bum! Though, I may say that about Jarret Wright now...
NOBODY is singing praises for Cano. You have this one backwards. My point is that it is easy for guys like yourself to get all over Randy Johnson and Mariano Rivera for a couple of April bad games. But NONE of the guys like you would EVER dare mention that Cano or Jeter are having great Aprils. It is ONLY the bad stuff that you guys stick to. What Cano and Jeter are doing OBVIOUSLY does not mean much yet.
Where are the Cano bashers when he is hitting .350, playing a very good second base, and getting himself into 13 game hitting streaks? Were are the Jeter bashers while he is tearing up the American League early on?
It is peeps like YOU who can't have it both ways. You can't single out Johnson and Rivera in APRIL while keeping real quiet on Jeter and Cano in APRIL.
And Axtell, what "young" players have the Yankees traded away for any aging veterans? Who? They bring up guys like Cano, Wang, Proctor, Phillips ONTO the major league roster and you are arguing that they don't try and develop their kids? Whaaaaaaat???????
<< <i>And Axtell, what "young" players have the Yankees traded away for any aging veterans? Who? They bring up guys like Cano, Wang, Proctor, Phillips ONTO the major league roster and you are arguing that they don't try and develop their kids? Whaaaaaaat??????? >>
Soft, they really don't. Don't you recall when the Yanks were trying to trade Cano and Wang for Randy Johnson? The D-Backs didn't want either player, apparently - deciding to keep a sulking, pouty Randy Johnson for a few more meaningless months instead. Proctor had an ERA of 6.04 last year, so he isn't exactly a gem from the farm system either.
CT, the POINT IS that the Yankees are actively trying to bring along YOUNG players like anybody else. Where was I calling Proctor a "gem" Where? GEMS are not what this debate is about. Go back and read to get up to speed And since when to you judge a first year stat as how good that player whoever it might be will turn out? "sigh" Why don't you go back and look at Tom Glavines first COUPLE of years in the big leagues.
Also, you can bring up all the ifs ya want. There are NO ifs in baseball and Cano and Wang are still on the team and it is looking very promising for the future that Cano was not moved.
Point is, Cano and Wang are only on the Yanks because the efforts to trade them away failed. The NY sports radio is full of stories of other times than Cano and Wang were nearly traded, before they really got started in the majors. True, or not - who knows...but it falls in line with the Yanks game plan.
Do you yankee fans find it odd that you mention Jeter, Rivera, and Posada as products of the yankees farm system? Can you please name any other (current) yankee who is starting regularly outside of wang and cano that is a product of the yankee farm system?
Look, your GM and team owner have been sacrificing youth for years to 'win now'. You can only run on empty for so long before it bites you in the ass, and the yankees' lack of world series titles in half a decade (should be) painfully apparent to you.
Yes, Jeter is having a marvelous spring (for $18 million he BETTER). Cano's had a run of good luck in the field.
Why did I say Johnson was done? Hmm, a history of back problems and 2 consecutive starts that were 5 innings each...not a good sign. He's well over 40, and is notorious for injury issues.
I'd also like to mention the 'steal' of the offseason, Mr. Johnny Damon, is batting .274 with 1 home run, more Ks (16) than walks (13), and an OBP of .374. Where are all those who thought they were sticking it to the red sox by 'stealing' this guy?
Ax, if you take the 2 guys on the M's who shared the majority of the season at 2nd base their combined fielding pct was .979. I guess since that is virtually the same as Cano's .975 that their defense at the position was abysmal too. Cano was only one of I believe 8 second basemen in the league to play more than 120 games, and several of the remaining 2nd basemen had similar fielding pct. including Iguchi at .978, Roberts at .986, Belliard at .981. Kennedy and Hudson were best with a .991 pct. The fact that he played virtually the entire year already put him in the upper half of 2nd basemen in the league, and considering his chances and fielding pct. he was right around the middle of the pack out of the remaining guys. Hardly the "debacle" you would lead us to believe.
Ct, where are all the bright young stars the Red Sox have developed and held onto over the last 10 years ?
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
<< <i> Look, your GM and team owner have been sacrificing youth for years to 'win now'. You can only run on empty for so long before it bites you in the ass, and the yankees' lack of world series titles in half a decade (should be) painfully apparent to you.
>>
ANSWER the QUESTION Ax. Who have the Yankees sacrificed? What promising YOUTH have the Yankees traded away? Instead of spewing more drivel why don't you ANSWER the question?
CT, you a little more dense then I thought but thats cool, I was not "comparing" Tom Glavine to Scott friggen Proctor. I used Glavine to highlite how SILLY it is to take a look at ANY PLAYERS first year stats and assume anything, like you did with Proctor. If ctsox had taken a look at Glavine's numbers after year two of his career ctsox would have said "Glavine is certainly no GEM from the Braves system"
<< <i>So, now Proctor is the next Tom Glavine? Yikes...
Point is, Cano and Wang are only on the Yanks because the efforts to trade them away failed. The NY sports radio is full of stories of other times than Cano and Wang were nearly traded, before they really got started in the majors. True, or not - who knows...but it falls in line with the Yanks game plan.
I am fully up to speed, you need to catch up. >>
CT, and the ONLY reason Manny Ramirez is still on the Sox is becuase NOBODY wanted his contract. And you AND Axtell keep talking about the Yankees "game plan" of trading away youth but neither of ya can tell me who. And trust me CT, Yankee fans are more than happy any trade efforts failed with Wang and Cano. Are you happy not a sole wanted Manny? Don't panic CT. I am NOT comparing anybody to anybody. POINT is though that the only reason you still have Manny Ramirez is becuase nobody wanted the prima donna with his contract.
And just who have the VAUNTED Red Sox farm system produced in the last 10 years? NOTHING comparable to the yanks. Don't even try.
I have to say I think Proctor has pretty good stuff. And this coming from a Blue Jays fan. Let's look at Proctor's numbers at the end of the year and see who is eating their words.
This Yankee-bashing is a little tiresome. What franchise wouldn't love to have the Yankees track record in making it to the post-season? Hey, I'd consider giving up a kidney for the Jays just to be in a pennant race come September.
Het writer, better times are definately here for your Jays. They have already shown that the Yankees and the Red Sox hardly scare them a bit. As long as you have Halladay leading that rotation I would have a smile if I were you
As far as the Yankees kids go, these guys will bash everyone of them unless they fly right into the big leagues and become an all star immediately. And if that happens they then will bash the player as being over rated and over hyped. It is the same tiresome cycle over and over again. The names just change.
I posted this link before, but it's worth a second look. The Red Sox are considered to have the best farm system currently in baseball, and you will see the evidence of this over the next few years. Interesting also is that the Mariners have a highly regarded farm system as well - but scroll down to the bottom to see one Yankee prospect, and read the comment regarding him.
CT, fair enough. But all we can go by is what HAS been produced. Not what MIGHT happen. We all know about blue chip prospects that never pan out. It happens all the time. Robinson Cano was not on anybodys radar last year and then all of the sudden he was here. That review, and lets STRESS it is just a review does not even have Phillip Huges listed. Which is just ridiculous.
I will ask again CT......where are all the bright young stars the Red Sox HAVE developed over the last 10 years ? Who they have in their system now means absolutely nothing until one or some of those kids actually becomes a productive major league player.
Nobody has yet to come up with a team over the past 10 or so years that has developed and kept as many players as the Yankees have. Every time the question is posed by myself or others it is avoided.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
Since Jeter, Rivera, and Posada, and now with 'prospects' Wang and Cano, who have the yankees brought up through the farm system that are still with the team?
As far as the Mariners' second basemen, exactly where was I boasting they were the second coming of Rod Carew? Where was I boasting how great they were? The attempt to bring up the M's simply shows when you are losing an argument, you attempt to deflect the argument away from the real topic.
Ax, are there any teams in the majors who have 4 solid players they developed over 10 years ago still playing like the yanks do in Jeter, Rivera, Williams, and Posada ?
And I dont recall anyone boasting about how great Cano was. All I noticed were people saying he was solid as they were defending the bashing he was receiving from the resident Yankee haters. Just another case where you wouldnt hear much about the player, be it Cano or someone else, unless one of the bashers brings him up to start with.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
Ax, figures you would answer my question with a question.
Again, WHO have the Yankees traded away for an aging veteran? Who? You claim this is going on but you can't come up with any facts.
Now, Wang and Cano were just brought up last year. So was Proctor and Andy Phillips. The latter may not be blue chip but how many roster spots do you want filled up with youth? All 25? That is FOUR roster spots taken up by kids and FIVE when you count Bubba Crosby. Your arguement is as flat as the great plains.
Mariano Rivera Bernie Williams Jorge Posada Derek Jeter Robinson Cano Scott Proctor Andy Phillips Chein Ming Wang
32 % of the Yankees big league roster came from their farm system. And if the Yankees were not so STUPID to let Andy Pettitte get away we would be nearing HALF of the current roster from the farm system.
Now, AGAIN, Who have the Yankees traded away for an aging veteran? Who Ax? I know you checked, realized you were 100% wrong, and now are avoiding backing up your baseless statement. Good job
Looks line the Yankees have done a decent job with their farm system to me. Hey, for years, people raved about the Blue Jays farm system, but how many division titles have they won since 1993? Z-e-r-o. Zilch.
This year's team has six of their No. 1 picks on the roster:
Roy Halladay Vernon Wells Alex Rios Dustin McGowan Russ Adams Aaron Hill
But the team still didn't stand a hope in heck of contending until they traded for Glaus, Overbay, Hillenbrand, and signed B.J. Ryan and A.J. Burnett (who hopefully someday will be healthy). Looks to me like the Blue Jays are building their team a lot like the successful Yankees teams have: hone the skills of a few blue chippers in the farm system and compliment them by trading for some proven veterans. This is the way of major league baseball these days.
What is so difficult to understand about my question? I simply asked you to point out which farm system products the yankees have currently playing for them since Posada, Jeter, and Rivera and before Wang and Cano.
Mariano Rivera - debut 1995 Bernie Williams - debut 1991 Jorge Posada - debut 1995 Derek Jeter - debut 1995 Robinson Cano - debut 2005 Scott Proctor - debut 2004 Andy Phillips - debut 2004 Chein Ming Wang - debut 2005
Is it just me, or do you not also see a 10 year gap? Please tell me I don't need to go to the eye doctor!
To answer that properly one would have to go back and look at every year. Yes in the example you give there is a 10 year gap.
Some guys that came up (say in 97) may have since become free agents, were traded, or retired. Also it should be pointed out in that 10 year period the Yanks did win 5 World Series and or finished very hi in the standings thus were getting crappy picks too. Teams like the Mariners and other perrennial also rans get hi picks in the draft. In any event they must be doing something right to be able to finish as hi as they do year after year.
Ax, who cares if there is a gap between home grown talent on the club ? The point is that they produced many great homegrown players and have kept them for over 10 years. No other team in baseball has that pedigree on their current roster.
Come at us with facts for once. Provide examples of talent the Yankees have given up. Provide a comparison to your team (or any team for that matter) to show us all how they have developed and held onto premium talent at a greater rate than the Yankees have. Give an example or two where the Yankees gave up talent at a particular position and failed to replace whoever it was with an adequate substitute.
Steve, excellent point regarding draft position. It makes it tough to pick up a vast pool of blue chip draft picks when you are picking last or near last every year.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
this discussion doesn't concern you. Either stay on topic or get out.
the burden of proof is on softy and co. to prove they haven't been dealing all their quality draft picks in order to win now. The yankee supporters are unable to prove me wrong, as they have been selling their youth in exchange for high priced, aging veterans.
Yankees Roster:
39 Shawn Chacon (Not home grown) 29 Octavio Dotel (Not home grown) 48 Kyle Farnsworth (Not home grown) 41 Randy Johnson (Not home grown) 35 Mike Mussina (Not home grown) 36 Mike Myers (Not home grown) 45 Carl Pavano (DL) (Not home grown) 43 Scott Proctor (home grown, 2004 debut) 42 Mariano Rivera (home grown, 1995 debut) 31 Aaron Small (DL) (not home grown) 30 Matt Smith (home grown, 2006 debut) 56 Tanyon Sturtze (not home grown) 47 Ron Villone (not home grown) 40 Chien-Ming Wang (home grown, 2005 debut) 34 Jaret Wright (not home grown)
Catchers 20 Jorge Posada (home grown, 1994 debut) 33 Kelly Stinnett (not home grown)
Infielders 14 Miguel Cairo (not home grown) 22 Robinson Cano (home grown, 2005 debut) 25 Jason Giambi (not home grown) 2 Derek Jeter (home grown, 1995 debut) 12 Andy Phillips (home grown, 2004 debut) 13 Alex Rodriguez (not home grown)
Outfielders 19 Bubba Crosby (not home grown) 18 Johnny Damon (not home grown) 55 Hideki Matsui (not home grown) 11 Gary Sheffield (not home grown) 51 Bernie Williams (home grown, 1994 debut)
So with this complete analysis, it's painfully (to yankee fans) that either the yankees have (a) traded away all of their top prospects between 1995 and 2004, or (b) the yankees have been completely inept when it's come to drafting and developing young talent for close to a decade.
Either way you cut it, it speaks volumes about the organization.
hey Ax, would you answer the question I asked already or YOU get out of this thread. WHO have the Yankees traded away for a aging veteran? WHO?
And guess what big shot. When a team DOES develop a UNBELIEVABLE nucleus like the Yankees did guess what happens to those who come up AFTER the fact? Ummmm, there is no room for them. That is your little lesson for the day.
What speaks "volumes" around here is your inept knowledge of the game. And don't even try and whine about the lack of pitching the Yankees have developed because almost EVERY team in baseball has that problem. Including the Seattle Mariners, Boston Red Sox, etc, etc, etc. The Yankees developed a LEGENDARY nucleus and still have it. I am waiting for another team to even COME CLOSE to what the Yankee farm system has done in the last 10 years. Not gonna happen unless they come up with a BUNCH of World Championships.
And answer my damn question already.
Hey bri, Axtell won't come up with facts to answer my question. There aren't any. He will just twist and twist and twist trying to get out of yet ANOTHER beating.
<< <i>hey Ax, would you answer the question I asked already or YOU get out of this thread. WHO have the Yankees traded away for a aging veteran? WHO? >>
So if I can't come up with a single example, then what does that say about the yankees' ability to develop talent? The point of contention is what farm system talent the yankees brought up between 95 and 05?
<< <i>And guess what big shot. When a team DOES develop a UNBELIEVABLE nucleus like the Yankees did guess what happens to those who come up AFTER the fact? Ummmm, there is no room for them. That is your little lesson for the day. >>
Really? Really? no room for outfielders? No room for middle infielders? After Rivera, Posada, Williams, and Jeter, there's no room for anyone? 21 other roster spots and no room for others? If these young players are so great, then why are they signing every over the hill veteran instead?
<< <i>What speaks "volumes" around here is your inept knowledge of the game. And don't even try and whine about the lack of pitching the Yankees have developed because almost EVERY team in baseball has that problem. Including the Seattle Mariners, Boston Red Sox, etc, etc, etc. The Yankees developed a LEGENDARY nucleus and still have it. I am waiting for another team to even COME CLOSE to what the Yankee farm system has done in the last 10 years. Not gonna happen unless they come up with a BUNCH of World Championships. >>
And yet you continue to avoid the point that is painfully clear to everyone else. Either the yankees are completely inept at developing talent, or they have, for years, been trading that young talent away.
<< <i>And answer my damn question already.
Hey bri, Axtell won't come up with facts to answer my question. There aren't any. He will just twist and twist and twist trying to get out of yet ANOTHER beating. >>
I haven't twisted anything...I have posted FACTS over and over, and YOU continue to avoid the original point of contention. Are you that afraid to admit your team's faults? This isn't about the mariners, the red sox, or any other team besides the yankees.
Please, admit that either (a) the yankees haven't developed a single MLB worthy prospect in a decade, or (b) they've traded them all away for veterans.
It's quite simple, and the numbers don't lie. The roster showing no yankee players developed through the farm system between 96 and 03 is not my 'twisting', not a product of 'yankee haters'...its a FACT.
Oh boy, Axtell makes a statement. Gets called on it. Can't find an example. Then uses his failure to back himself up to TRY and prove the Yanks farm system has done nothing
Ax, you will find every way humanly possible to divert, avoid, or change the subject. The Yankees have developed and kept more talent than any team bar none. You have failed miserably to prove otherwise. You have failed to provide one example of talent they gave away without receving or replacing them. You have failed miserably to provide proof of any difference between the Yankees and any other team in regards to talent produced and traded. Once again you drag on and on with your mindless, incoherent and uninformed babble without producing any concrete facts to back up your tirade. What you do enjoy doing is producing the same roster list which only proves you more wrong if you compared the amount of home grown talent on the Yankees with nearly every other team.
Maybe I can help steer you in the proper direction here. You have repeatedly listed the talent the Yankees have produced who are currently on their roster. Here is who you came up with,
Mariano Rivera - debut 1995 Bernie Williams - debut 1991 Jorge Posada - debut 1995 Derek Jeter - debut 1995 Robinson Cano - debut 2005 Scott Proctor - debut 2004 Andy Phillips - debut 2004 Chein Ming Wang - debut 2005
Ok, now that is 8 of 28 players on the roster you listed, or roughly 29% home grown. Of those 8, 4 have been all star caliber, or roughly 14.5 %.
Now, based on those numbers ( which you provided several times ) AND your statement regarding the Yankees production of talent, please provide us with examples which show those numbers of players and percentage of players the Yankees have are lower than that of other teams. It isnt something that you need to divert attention from, it is a very simple way to prove your statements with intelligence. I have laid out the framework for your argument, all you need do is run with it and provide clear, concise, informed data to back up the argument you present in this thread.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
You would think Axtell the Mariner "fan" would be worried about his putrid 9-15 M's. You know, the team he picked to win the AL West with Felix (I'm not ready for the bigs yet) Hernandez wining the Cy Young
2004, traded Alfonso Soriano to the Rangers for Arod 2004, traded Jose Contreras for Esteban Loiaza (who they let go to free agency 6 months later) 2003, traded Nick Johnson with Randy Choate and Juan Rivera to the Montreal Expos for Javier Vazquez. They then traded Vasquez with Brad Halsey, Dioner Navarro, and cash to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Randy Johnson. So they traded 6 players + cash for Johnson.
The list goes on and on, but the most compelling evidence of this is the absolute and complete lack of any players, currently with the team, who came up between 1995 and 2004.
<< <i>You would think Axtell the Mariner "fan" would be worried about his putrid 9-15 M's. You know, the team he picked to win the AL West with Felix (I'm not ready for the bigs yet) Hernandez wining the Cy Young >>
Quit twisting and address the issue at hand you twit.
I live in Columbus Ohio...hometeam of the AAA Clippers.. . Therefore I will comment on this as fact.
I regularly attend the games quite often and since the early 90's with Bernie Williams, Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Andy Pettite, Mariano Rivera, Ramiro Mendoza i have not seen a damn thing come up to the AAA level. ONE PROSPECT made it and was traded...Ricky Ledee. I have clippers team sets from 1989 through 1996.....the only people worth a damn are the people before mentioned.. NOTHING..and I repeate...NOTHING has been worth CRAP since then...there has been NOTHING TO TRADE....and i wont waste my money on retard players on cheap cards.... Drew henson was bought by the yanks and flopped at the AAA level before going to the NFL. Clausssen the pitcher was traded to the Reds but obviously he is not the next Mark Prior. I went to a clippers game last week and everyone looked like little mexicans or retards that needed to be escorted around so as to not get a hot dog stuckin their crapper do to pure curiosity.....THERE HAS BEEN NOTHING AT THE AAA LEVEL since Posada was called up in 1996. PEROID. THERE HAS BEEN NOTHING TO TRADE. PEROID. Hence Moneybrenner has had to BUY everything. IF your talking about SELL OUT YOUNG PROSPECTS....then he is either doing it at the A or AA level.
Funny...you Yankees haters are sounding like no other team in the majors trades players from their minor league systems. And because of THAT the arguments make no sense.
<< <i>Funny...you Yankees haters are sounding like no other team in the majors trades players from their minor league systems. And because of THAT the arguments make no sense. >>
No, the argument stems from the fact the yankees have no players on their current roster brought up between 1996 and 2003...which shows either a complete and utter failure of the farm system to draft and develop young talent, or management has traded away every good prospect.
I don't think the point is - which teams have the most homegrown players now...that being the case, the Yankees have 4 (wow, 4!) players left from the "awesome" (not my word) nucleus of almost 10 years ago. More importantly, where are the teams headed? Which team is better managed, and which team has a brighter future with young stars they developed? How long are you Yankee fans going to hold onto 1997-2000 (or thereabouts) - unless you realize that there is zero chance of ever seeing that again with the way George runs the team now?
The Red Sox picked up most of their key players for little money, or prospects - no one really was dying to get Ortiz, Mueller, Foulke, etc...but shrewd trades brought them in. Home-grown Garciaparra was dealt, and it was a great move. Schilling was acquired for three prospects. Varitek (and Lowe) for prospects. I don't see this topic as where the teams were, but where they are headed.
Comments
<< <i> He used to do that very well - but the times are changing. >>
CT, Rivera has had two bad games like he has done before in April. What do you say about tonight when he minced up the D-Rays? Are the times still-a-changin? If you say yes, then by all means we HAVE to use the same logic on Josh Beckett and Curt Schilling. With the kind of logic you are using I would be forced to say that Schilling sure showed his age the other night. I bet he has seen his last decent run in the game. And Beckett? 8 earned runs in 3 plus innings? Is that what is going to carry you to the postseason?
Now, I know better than that. Schilling is not done, Beckett had a BAD NIGHT, and all of the sudden Shawn Chacon's ERA is neck and neck with Becketts. See? ITS APRIL FOR CHRIST SAKE
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
<< <i> He used to do that very well - but the times are changing. >>
CT, Rivera has had two bad games like he has done before in April. What do you say about tonight when he minced up the D-Rays? Are the times still-a-changin? If you say yes, then by all means we HAVE to use the same logic on Josh Beckett and Curt Schilling. With the kind of logic you are using I would be forced to say that Schilling sure showed his age the other night. I bet he has seen his last decent run in the game. And Beckett? 8 earned runs in 3 plus innings? Is that what is going to carry you to the postseason?
Now, I know better than that. Schilling is not done, Beckett had a BAD NIGHT, and all of the sudden Shawn Chacon's ERA is neck and neck with Becketts. See? ITS APRIL FOR CHRIST SAKE
Couldnt have said it better myself. One thing needed to be understood in baseball, especially this early is that you are never as good as you look at your best, and never as bas as you look at your worst. That, along with that fact that the hitters have a HUGE advantage this time of year makes me not put much stock in pitching till the heat of late June/early July rolls around. Im sure by then Mariano will be right around his norm, as will Beckett for the Sox.
Another thing, what is with all the Cano bashing ?? Its not like this guy is that poor defensively. Nobody is going to give him a gold glove anytime soon, but he is solid enough, and more importantly to me, cool as can be. He can make a game blowing error and shake it off 5 seconds later where alot of other young players might take that to the plate with them, which obviously isnt the case with him. The people bashing Cano are the same ones who will be the first to post how the Yankees cant develope talent from their own system. I think you would be hard pressed to find a half dozen teams in baseball who wouldnt jump at the chance to get Cano.
While on the subject of developing talent from their system, can anyone tell me another team that has produced from their system and kept for 10 years players like Bernie, Jeter, Posada, and Rivera ?
-- Yogi Berra
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Beckett got hit hard tonight, but it was indeed only one night, and this kid is going to lead the rotation in Boston for the next several years. I am sure mentioning him in the same breath with a hack like Chacon was just for humorous purposes...
Schilling looked pretty darn good even as he lost for the first time the other night (8K in 7 innings), and he is back to where he was pre-injury. Yes, it's April - and none of this means much until the summer starts, but on the subject of Rivera - you have to admit that a reliever who relies on the type of pitches he does is going to lose effectiveness as he gets older. His time is going to come - is it now? Could be, based on the early performances. He's been great though, perhaps the Yankees MVP of the past 5 years. There will be no way to replace what he has done for the Yankees when he's gone.
And you won't hear any Yankees fans complaining about Cano's bat either! He's batting .343 with only 7K's this season!
Yeah, there's tons more of season to go...even if Cano plays CLOSE to this all season then I for one will be very happy having Cano on the Yankees.
-- Yogi Berra
No offense, you be a cool dude
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i> Beckett got hit hard tonight, but it was indeed only one night, and this kid is going to lead the rotation in Boston for the next several years. I am sure mentioning him in the same breath with a hack like Chacon was just for humorous purposes...
>>
Ct, do you even watch the players you speak of? Ever? And Mo has been the Yankee MVP the last 10 seasons. Not 5.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
We'll see how much the Red Sox fans hate the Yankees farm system once Willy Mo Pena starts hitting bombs for them.
As I mentioned I'm a Blue Jays fan, I respect both the Yankees and Red Sox organizations, but the Yankees do seem to take a disproportionate amount of bashing on here.
I'm looking forward to a great series this weekend!
Can you say 17 errors? Can you say 'thank god Soriano is worse?' Cano was second in the league behind Soriano in errors, and his fielding percentage was an abysmal .975. Yes, he's solid! Instead, you prefer to focus on the tiny, tiny sample size of 20 games and say he's great.
Look, I know you yankee fans are desperate, desperate I say, to prove you haven't sold out every single good prospect in the last 10 years, but Cano is your defense? Please try harder.
Softy, no one was saying the yankees farm system sucked, we are saying the yankees are so eager to win now they aren't willing to develop their talent, they'd prefer to trade it away and sign overpriced, aging veterans (hello! Damon! hello! Big Unit). You can only do this for so long before you have no one left to trade (which is the wall the Yankees have found themselves against the past few years).
Put yourself in Cano's shoes...the largest stage in all of sports and youre a rookie coming in to replace a veteran. No one expected him to be a defensive wizard. Yes, 20 games is a small sample but what we are happy about is the improvement and adjustment thus far and hoping he will continue to improve. What is the difference of a Mariners fan being pleased when Felix Rodriguez does well and a Yankees fan is pleased when Cano does well? To you, it only has to do with Cano being a Yankee but in reality it's no different.
Yes, we know, you hate the Yankees and its your childish propoganda....all it shows is your pea brain knowledge of baseball and what its like to be a dedicated fan. I can not call someone who pays more attention to a team he hates more than the team he roots for "dedicated" so spare me of your nonsense.
I simply was pointing out over a much larger sample size his rate of errors was significantly higher. Yes he's had a fabulous april. But on one hand you want to slam those of us criticizing those doing poorly in april, you want to sing the praises of Cano because he's had one error in 20 games.
You can't have it both ways.
Johnson is 3-2 with a 3.73 ERA and 23 K's...and may I add ONLY 3 walks. That isnt a pitcher with April numbers who is "done". I dont think anyone really doubts that even those numbers will improve. Not only that, he has moved from the National League to the toughest division in all of baseball....and no pitchers to face at the bottom of the lineup.
Yankees may not have the best starting pitching staff in the league but I wouldnt call it "bad".
Lets see where we are when the weather warms up and we are at the AS break. If anyone is sucking by then, I'll be the first to say to get rid of the bum! Though, I may say that about Jarret Wright now...
NOBODY is singing praises for Cano. You have this one backwards. My point is that it is easy for guys like yourself to get all over Randy Johnson and Mariano Rivera for a couple of April bad games. But NONE of the guys like you would EVER dare mention that Cano or Jeter are having great Aprils. It is ONLY the bad stuff that you guys stick to. What Cano and Jeter are doing OBVIOUSLY does not mean much yet.
Where are the Cano bashers when he is hitting .350, playing a very good second base, and getting himself into 13 game hitting streaks? Were are the Jeter bashers while he is tearing up the American League early on?
It is peeps like YOU who can't have it both ways. You can't single out Johnson and Rivera in APRIL while keeping real quiet on Jeter and Cano in APRIL.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>And Axtell, what "young" players have the Yankees traded away for any aging veterans? Who? They bring up guys like Cano, Wang, Proctor, Phillips ONTO the major league roster and you are arguing that they don't try and develop their kids? Whaaaaaaat??????? >>
Soft, they really don't. Don't you recall when the Yanks were trying to trade Cano and Wang for Randy Johnson? The D-Backs didn't want either player, apparently - deciding to keep a sulking, pouty Randy Johnson for a few more meaningless months instead. Proctor had an ERA of 6.04 last year, so he isn't exactly a gem from the farm system either.
Also, you can bring up all the ifs ya want. There are NO ifs in baseball and Cano and Wang are still on the team and it is looking very promising for the future that Cano was not moved.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Point is, Cano and Wang are only on the Yanks because the efforts to trade them away failed. The NY sports radio is full of stories of other times than Cano and Wang were nearly traded, before they really got started in the majors. True, or not - who knows...but it falls in line with the Yanks game plan.
I am fully up to speed, you need to catch up.
Look, your GM and team owner have been sacrificing youth for years to 'win now'. You can only run on empty for so long before it bites you in the ass, and the yankees' lack of world series titles in half a decade (should be) painfully apparent to you.
Yes, Jeter is having a marvelous spring (for $18 million he BETTER). Cano's had a run of good luck in the field.
Why did I say Johnson was done? Hmm, a history of back problems and 2 consecutive starts that were 5 innings each...not a good sign. He's well over 40, and is notorious for injury issues.
I'd also like to mention the 'steal' of the offseason, Mr. Johnny Damon, is batting .274 with 1 home run, more Ks (16) than walks (13), and an OBP of .374. Where are all those who thought they were sticking it to the red sox by 'stealing' this guy?
Ct, where are all the bright young stars the Red Sox have developed and held onto over the last 10 years ?
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>
Look, your GM and team owner have been sacrificing youth for years to 'win now'. You can only run on empty for so long before it bites you in the ass, and the yankees' lack of world series titles in half a decade (should be) painfully apparent to you.
>>
ANSWER the QUESTION Ax. Who have the Yankees sacrificed? What promising YOUTH have the Yankees traded away? Instead of spewing more drivel why don't you ANSWER the question?
CT, you a little more dense then I thought but thats cool, I was not "comparing" Tom Glavine to Scott friggen Proctor. I used Glavine to highlite how SILLY it is to take a look at ANY PLAYERS first year stats and assume anything, like you did with Proctor. If ctsox had taken a look at Glavine's numbers after year two of his career ctsox would have said "Glavine is certainly no GEM from the Braves system"
get it yet CT?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>So, now Proctor is the next Tom Glavine? Yikes...
Point is, Cano and Wang are only on the Yanks because the efforts to trade them away failed. The NY sports radio is full of stories of other times than Cano and Wang were nearly traded, before they really got started in the majors. True, or not - who knows...but it falls in line with the Yanks game plan.
I am fully up to speed, you need to catch up.
CT, and the ONLY reason Manny Ramirez is still on the Sox is becuase NOBODY wanted his contract. And you AND Axtell keep talking about the Yankees "game plan" of trading away youth but neither of ya can tell me who. And trust me CT, Yankee fans are more than happy any trade efforts failed with Wang and Cano. Are you happy not a sole wanted Manny? Don't panic CT. I am NOT comparing anybody to anybody. POINT is though that the only reason you still have Manny Ramirez is becuase nobody wanted the prima donna with his contract.
And just who have the VAUNTED Red Sox farm system produced in the last 10 years? NOTHING comparable to the yanks. Don't even try.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
This Yankee-bashing is a little tiresome. What franchise wouldn't love to have the Yankees track record in making it to the post-season? Hey, I'd consider giving up a kidney for the Jays just to be in a pennant race come September.
As far as the Yankees kids go, these guys will bash everyone of them unless they fly right into the big leagues and become an all star immediately. And if that happens they then will bash the player as being over rated and over hyped. It is the same tiresome cycle over and over again. The names just change.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Minor League News
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Nobody has yet to come up with a team over the past 10 or so years that has developed and kept as many players as the Yankees have. Every time the question is posed by myself or others it is avoided.
-- Yogi Berra
Since Jeter, Rivera, and Posada, and now with 'prospects' Wang and Cano, who have the yankees brought up through the farm system that are still with the team?
As far as the Mariners' second basemen, exactly where was I boasting they were the second coming of Rod Carew? Where was I boasting how great they were? The attempt to bring up the M's simply shows when you are losing an argument, you attempt to deflect the argument away from the real topic.
And I dont recall anyone boasting about how great Cano was. All I noticed were people saying he was solid as they were defending the bashing he was receiving from the resident Yankee haters. Just another case where you wouldnt hear much about the player, be it Cano or someone else, unless one of the bashers brings him up to start with.
-- Yogi Berra
Again, WHO have the Yankees traded away for an aging veteran? Who? You claim this is going on but you can't come up with any facts.
Now, Wang and Cano were just brought up last year. So was Proctor and Andy Phillips. The latter may not be blue chip but how many roster spots do you want filled up with youth? All 25?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
You can't. It's been TEN years between farm system producing for the big club. Either that or you've traded them all away. Either way, it's PATHETIC.
The only thing flat here is the yankees farm system producing for the big club.
Mariano Rivera
Bernie Williams
Jorge Posada
Derek Jeter
Robinson Cano
Scott Proctor
Andy Phillips
Chein Ming Wang
32 % of the Yankees big league roster came from their farm system. And if the Yankees were not so STUPID to let Andy Pettitte get away we would be nearing HALF of the current roster from the farm system.
Now, AGAIN, Who have the Yankees traded away for an aging veteran? Who Ax? I know you checked, realized you were 100% wrong, and now are avoiding backing up your baseless statement. Good job
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
This year's team has six of their No. 1 picks on the roster:
Roy Halladay
Vernon Wells
Alex Rios
Dustin McGowan
Russ Adams
Aaron Hill
But the team still didn't stand a hope in heck of contending until they traded for Glaus, Overbay, Hillenbrand, and signed B.J. Ryan and A.J. Burnett (who hopefully someday will be healthy). Looks to me like the Blue Jays are building their team a lot like the successful Yankees teams have: hone the skills of a few blue chippers in the farm system and compliment them by trading for some proven veterans. This is the way of major league baseball these days.
What is so difficult to understand about my question? I simply asked you to point out which farm system products the yankees have currently playing for them since Posada, Jeter, and Rivera and before Wang and Cano.
Mariano Rivera - debut 1995
Bernie Williams - debut 1991
Jorge Posada - debut 1995
Derek Jeter - debut 1995
Robinson Cano - debut 2005
Scott Proctor - debut 2004
Andy Phillips - debut 2004
Chein Ming Wang - debut 2005
Is it just me, or do you not also see a 10 year gap? Please tell me I don't need to go to the eye doctor!
Some guys that came up (say in 97) may have since become free agents, were traded, or retired. Also it should be pointed out in that 10 year period the Yanks did win 5 World Series and or finished very hi in the standings thus were getting crappy picks too. Teams like the Mariners and other perrennial also rans get hi picks in the draft. In any event they must be doing something right to be able to finish as hi as they do year after year.
Steve
Come at us with facts for once. Provide examples of talent the Yankees have given up. Provide a comparison to your team (or any team for that matter) to show us all how they have developed and held onto premium talent at a greater rate than the Yankees have. Give an example or two where the Yankees gave up talent at a particular position and failed to replace whoever it was with an adequate substitute.
Steve, excellent point regarding draft position. It makes it tough to pick up a vast pool of blue chip draft picks when you are picking last or near last every year.
-- Yogi Berra
this discussion doesn't concern you. Either stay on topic or get out.
the burden of proof is on softy and co. to prove they haven't been dealing all their quality draft picks in order to win now. The yankee supporters are unable to prove me wrong, as they have been selling their youth in exchange for high priced, aging veterans.
Yankees Roster:
39 Shawn Chacon (Not home grown)
29 Octavio Dotel (Not home grown)
48 Kyle Farnsworth (Not home grown)
41 Randy Johnson (Not home grown)
35 Mike Mussina (Not home grown)
36 Mike Myers (Not home grown)
45 Carl Pavano (DL) (Not home grown)
43 Scott Proctor (home grown, 2004 debut)
42 Mariano Rivera (home grown, 1995 debut)
31 Aaron Small (DL) (not home grown)
30 Matt Smith (home grown, 2006 debut)
56 Tanyon Sturtze (not home grown)
47 Ron Villone (not home grown)
40 Chien-Ming Wang (home grown, 2005 debut)
34 Jaret Wright (not home grown)
Catchers
20 Jorge Posada (home grown, 1994 debut)
33 Kelly Stinnett (not home grown)
Infielders
14 Miguel Cairo (not home grown)
22 Robinson Cano (home grown, 2005 debut)
25 Jason Giambi (not home grown)
2 Derek Jeter (home grown, 1995 debut)
12 Andy Phillips (home grown, 2004 debut)
13 Alex Rodriguez (not home grown)
Outfielders
19 Bubba Crosby (not home grown)
18 Johnny Damon (not home grown)
55 Hideki Matsui (not home grown)
11 Gary Sheffield (not home grown)
51 Bernie Williams (home grown, 1994 debut)
So with this complete analysis, it's painfully (to yankee fans) that either the yankees have (a) traded away all of their top prospects between 1995 and 2004, or (b) the yankees have been completely inept when it's come to drafting and developing young talent for close to a decade.
Either way you cut it, it speaks volumes about the organization.
And guess what big shot. When a team DOES develop a UNBELIEVABLE nucleus like the Yankees did guess what happens to those who come up AFTER the fact? Ummmm, there is no room for them. That is your little lesson for the day.
What speaks "volumes" around here is your inept knowledge of the game. And don't even try and whine about the lack of pitching the Yankees have developed because almost EVERY team in baseball has that problem. Including the Seattle Mariners, Boston Red Sox, etc, etc, etc. The Yankees developed a LEGENDARY nucleus and still have it. I am waiting for another team to even COME CLOSE to what the Yankee farm system has done in the last 10 years. Not gonna happen unless they come up with a BUNCH of World Championships.
And answer my damn question already.
Hey bri, Axtell won't come up with facts to answer my question. There aren't any. He will just twist and twist and twist trying to get out of yet ANOTHER beating.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>hey Ax, would you answer the question I asked already or YOU get out of this thread. WHO have the Yankees traded away for a aging veteran? WHO? >>
So if I can't come up with a single example, then what does that say about the yankees' ability to develop talent? The point of contention is what farm system talent the yankees brought up between 95 and 05?
<< <i>And guess what big shot. When a team DOES develop a UNBELIEVABLE nucleus like the Yankees did guess what happens to those who come up AFTER the fact? Ummmm, there is no room for them. That is your little lesson for the day. >>
Really? Really? no room for outfielders? No room for middle infielders? After Rivera, Posada, Williams, and Jeter, there's no room for anyone? 21 other roster spots and no room for others? If these young players are so great, then why are they signing every over the hill veteran instead?
<< <i>What speaks "volumes" around here is your inept knowledge of the game. And don't even try and whine about the lack of pitching the Yankees have developed because almost EVERY team in baseball has that problem. Including the Seattle Mariners, Boston Red Sox, etc, etc, etc. The Yankees developed a LEGENDARY nucleus and still have it. I am waiting for another team to even COME CLOSE to what the Yankee farm system has done in the last 10 years. Not gonna happen unless they come up with a BUNCH of World Championships. >>
And yet you continue to avoid the point that is painfully clear to everyone else. Either the yankees are completely inept at developing talent, or they have, for years, been trading that young talent away.
<< <i>And answer my damn question already.
Hey bri, Axtell won't come up with facts to answer my question. There aren't any. He will just twist and twist and twist trying to get out of yet ANOTHER beating. >>
I haven't twisted anything...I have posted FACTS over and over, and YOU continue to avoid the original point of contention. Are you that afraid to admit your team's faults? This isn't about the mariners, the red sox, or any other team besides the yankees.
Please, admit that either (a) the yankees haven't developed a single MLB worthy prospect in a decade, or (b) they've traded them all away for veterans.
It's quite simple, and the numbers don't lie. The roster showing no yankee players developed through the farm system between 96 and 03 is not my 'twisting', not a product of 'yankee haters'...its a FACT.
man, it don't get any better than that
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Maybe I can help steer you in the proper direction here. You have repeatedly listed the talent the Yankees have produced who are currently on their roster. Here is who you came up with,
Mariano Rivera - debut 1995
Bernie Williams - debut 1991
Jorge Posada - debut 1995
Derek Jeter - debut 1995
Robinson Cano - debut 2005
Scott Proctor - debut 2004
Andy Phillips - debut 2004
Chein Ming Wang - debut 2005
Ok, now that is 8 of 28 players on the roster you listed, or roughly 29% home grown. Of those 8, 4 have been all star caliber, or roughly 14.5 %.
Now, based on those numbers ( which you provided several times ) AND your statement regarding the Yankees production of talent, please provide us with examples which show those numbers of players and percentage of players the Yankees have are lower than that of other teams. It isnt something that you need to divert attention from, it is a very simple way to prove your statements with intelligence. I have laid out the framework for your argument, all you need do is run with it and provide clear, concise, informed data to back up the argument you present in this thread.
-- Yogi Berra
How about THIS FACT. 6 World Series appearances in 8 years. Can't do nothing with that one.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
You would think Axtell the Mariner "fan" would be worried about his putrid 9-15 M's. You know, the team he picked to win the AL West with Felix (I'm not ready for the bigs yet) Hernandez wining the Cy Young
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
2004, traded Alfonso Soriano to the Rangers for Arod
2004, traded Jose Contreras for Esteban Loiaza (who they let go to free agency 6 months later)
2003, traded Nick Johnson with Randy Choate and Juan Rivera to the Montreal Expos for Javier Vazquez. They then traded Vasquez with Brad Halsey, Dioner Navarro, and cash to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Randy Johnson. So they traded 6 players + cash for Johnson.
The list goes on and on, but the most compelling evidence of this is the absolute and complete lack of any players, currently with the team, who came up between 1995 and 2004.
<< <i>You would think Axtell the Mariner "fan" would be worried about his putrid 9-15 M's. You know, the team he picked to win the AL West with Felix (I'm not ready for the bigs yet) Hernandez wining the Cy Young
Quit twisting and address the issue at hand you twit.
I regularly attend the games quite often and since the early 90's with Bernie Williams, Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Andy Pettite, Mariano Rivera, Ramiro Mendoza i have not seen a damn thing come up to the AAA level. ONE PROSPECT made it and was traded...Ricky Ledee. I have clippers team sets from 1989 through 1996.....the only people worth a damn are the people before mentioned.. NOTHING..and I repeate...NOTHING has been worth CRAP since then...there has been NOTHING TO TRADE....and i wont waste my money on retard players on cheap cards.... Drew henson was bought by the yanks and flopped at the AAA level before going to the NFL. Clausssen the pitcher was traded to the Reds but obviously he is not the next Mark Prior. I went to a clippers game last week and everyone looked like little mexicans or retards that needed to be escorted around so as to not get a hot dog stuckin their crapper do to pure curiosity.....THERE HAS BEEN NOTHING AT THE AAA LEVEL since Posada was called up in 1996. PEROID. THERE HAS BEEN NOTHING TO TRADE. PEROID. Hence Moneybrenner has had to BUY everything. IF your talking about SELL OUT YOUNG PROSPECTS....then he is either doing it at the A or AA level.
<< <i>Funny...you Yankees haters are sounding like no other team in the majors trades players from their minor league systems. And because of THAT the arguments make no sense. >>
No, the argument stems from the fact the yankees have no players on their current roster brought up between 1996 and 2003...which shows either a complete and utter failure of the farm system to draft and develop young talent, or management has traded away every good prospect.
The Red Sox picked up most of their key players for little money, or prospects - no one really was dying to get Ortiz, Mueller, Foulke, etc...but shrewd trades brought them in. Home-grown Garciaparra was dealt, and it was a great move. Schilling was acquired for three prospects. Varitek (and Lowe) for prospects. I don't see this topic as where the teams were, but where they are headed.