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Is this a two-tiered market?
dpoole
Posts: 5,940 ✭✭✭✭✭
I've gotten the impression (no systematic study) that condition and absolute rarities are very strong and rising, while middle grades and the more common issues are softening and even declining in some series.
Is this your experience?
Is this your experience?
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it's for a boy to go back to the farm after he's seen Paris for the first time!!
At the moment, retirees, an important factor, are still providing support to the middle and lower end of the coin market. This support will weaken as:
1. These individuals age and die off.
2. They see the retirement benefits they thought were their's for life disappear. This is happening right now to people who worked in the private sector. Government retirees are next...and, yes, it is coming.
People who are still working are also going to be affected as they see their benefits shrink or disappear entirely. There is also going to be downward pressure on salaries as more and more immigrants enter the country and provide employers with the cheap, docile, labor they crave.
Numismatics does not exist in an economic vacuum, though many participants in this forum seem to think otherwise.
<< <i>Numismatics does not exist in an economic vacuum, though many participants in this forum seem to think otherwise. >>
From your post.. 291fifth..it makes a a dual statement.It is not only Economics but also Political.Our hobby thrives on the buying and selling of a Commodity.....Coins........It is self sustaining .If you got the cash ...you buy.......If you need the cash...you sell.
Politics enters it somwhere for those ..whom have it and those ..whom don't......We know who has the clout and those that don't.
It's the same story .......no matter how things change ......it will still remain the same...................JMHO.................
<< <i>
<< <i>Numismatics does not exist in an economic vacuum, though many participants in this forum seem to think otherwise. >>
From your post.. 291fifth..it makes a a dual statement.It is not only Economics but also Political.Our hobby thrives on the buying and selling of a Commodity.....Coins........It is self sustaining .If you got the cash ...you buy.......If you need the cash...you sell.
Politics enters it somwhere for those ..whom have it and those ..whom don't......We know who has the clout and those that don't.
It's the same story .......no matter how things change ......it will still remain the same...................JMHO.................
Right you are, because politics is a major factor influencing economics.
<< <i>"People who are still working are also going to be affected as they see their benefits shrink or disappear entirely. There is also going to be downward pressure on salaries as more and more immigrants enter the country and provide employers with the cheap, docile, labor they crave." >>
Good points. The perverse management structures at the corporate level have long ago set the stage for a new era of an exceedingly cheap and highly passive labor force. As I see it, the best solution is in the pure entrepreneurship of the individual, solo in nature; where artisans, craftsmen, and those with unique and higher skills recapture and reclaim their tools as well as the creation and ownership over their own means of production. In other words, when the individual sticks his and her middle finger at the corporate boardrooms, refusing to sell their labor (their literal life as measured in time), and the fruit of their labor for $6.50 an hour minimum wage (and decling or non-existent benefits), and instead do it all for themselves, then freedom from corporate tyranny might possibly be realized.
If this happens en-masse, the corporate degenerate management class will crumble under the weight of their own shallow meaningless skill, mediocrity and treachery. Then, multinational corporations, and the overpriced crap products they typically offer, will become products for third world nations too poor to purchase them. matteproof
<< <i>2. They see the retirement benefits they thought were their's for life disappear. This is happening right now to people who worked in the private sector. Government retirees are next...and, yes, it is coming. >>
Yup, I think so too. I think taxpayers were willing to fund relatively generous retirement plans for government employees as long as their own employers were giving them the same. But the more private sector employees have their retirement benefits taken away, the more they'll resent paying to give them to others.
Though it's usually much harder to take away from the public sector because they have more powerful unions than the private sector usually does. But at some point, taxpayer resentment will trump even their power.
Do a Google news search with the word "Delphi" and you will
see what is happening to what was once considered good, solid
middle class jobs in this country. It is getting ugly.
Is this your experience?
It sure seems that way but much of it is headline based IMO. Unique, supergrades and newsworthy coins get all the attention and that creates demand. There is plenty of home equity loan money floating around. People burned by the stock market are staying out and spending investment dollars. Very risky business here.
By contrast, I see certain series as Seated and Barbers in particular as being totally ignored. In the Barbers you can still get an MS65/66 with less than 10 pop at the grade or higher for less than $5000. Can that be found in Morgans, Peace, Mercury or Lincoln? Or MS65 Braided Hair cents in BN less than $2000. In Red, less than $5000. Both with low populations. Are they condition rarities? Yes and even rarities in their own right sometimes.
A few months back I was the sole bidder on a $20 in AU55, only 45 coins in all grades with 11 higher. Cost? Less than $1,400. My point is rare coins in acceptable slabs in nice condition are out there but many are chasing the MS70 with hundreds graded or the rainbow colored coins at 400% premiums. At the end of the day rarity will return.
<< <i>...Do a Google news search with the word "Delphi" and you will
see what is happening to what was once considered good, solid
middle class jobs in this country. It is getting ugly. >>
Hey Michigan. Yes, your observations are correct. Delphi is really only the tip of the iceberg. Troubled companies with big union commitments are looking to dodge their way around their obligations. Make no mistake about it, their goal is to “break” labor contracts freeing them up to send more jobs to the hinterlands of the globe at pennies on the dollar. Those job cut realized profits, should the management class succeed, will only wind up in the pockets of the corporate elite in the form of bonuses, stock options, and many other golden parachute perks now firmly hijacked by the corporate ceo's and their brethren.
Already, many workers are seeing their already drastically reduced benefits cut further to the bone. The irony is that this new dynamic results from the changed fortunes of companies, for the worse, resulting from the "wisdom" of the so-called “talented” management class, who have ruined what were once superb companies with their clumsy and dim-witted intellects and impotent management skills.
Most unconscionable to me is how the executive pay and compensation scale has zoomed upward, often to absurd proportions, at these exact times when the working class families have seen their jobs outsourced, cut, and just basically defiled by America’s new "monarchist" aristocracy that is the corporate elitists. Yet, if every artisan, craftsmen or trained worker had the stomach to just say “no” to their schemes, these companies would soon be relegated to the scrap heap of history. Sadly, too many good working folks have been fed the delusional brainwash of the ever shrinking weekly paycheck. By not exercising their GOD given right to control the means of their own production, and therefore the ownership of it, they have become flaccid and willing participants to their corporate masters. The way it looks now, the corporate masters are looking to disown their local slaves and replace them with cheaper ones on other continents. Sad! matteproof
How about all the illegals?Conservative estimates put them at 18 million, which is a major cause
of driving down wages.If cheap labor was not available the prevailing wage would be paid.
Basically we suck at what we do anymore, and do not take responsibility for it.
Everyone is looking for a handout and the till is running dry.
<< <i>With the baby boomers coming into retirement, with cash and a new interest in coins, you can expect the high grade coins to continue their upward movement..it's the old supply and demand...very few coins being sought by many buyers and collectors...scr >>
With all of the uncertainty about the future of health care coverage
there is no guarantee that baby boomers heading into retirement
are going to be spending money like crazy on hobby interests.
Studies have shown that most people underestimate how much
money they are going to need to live a comfortable lifestyle in their
retirement years and have saved not nearly enough money for that
period in their lives.
<< <i>How about all the illegals?Conservative estimates put them at 18 million >>
That is what I see first hand. Having the ability to sit as a fly on the wall I have heard many times of what they do. They borrow/steal a SS# or two (only cost $35 BTW), apply for welfair, food stamps and get it. Live in multible family settings yet claim on all forms not to be. Plus, they work hard. Two jobs most of the time. So all living expences are paid and the work paychecks go Western Unoin back to family where they came from and used to build mansoins. I know, I watch and listen to a group that throws a party every month in the park. Thier goal is to send 20k/month back home. Do any of them have car insurance?,, no. You wreck, you run, your not known, you have money, buy another car, simple.
Sorry to derail the thread but it is just something that I feel is a bigger than most people think issue. Also sorry about the spelling, the spellchecker in FF has died for me
entered for this thread. It is not one single villian
there are many villians in the demise of the middle class.
Camelot
<< <i>Maybe the unions set the path of destruction by paying tow motor operators $75,000.00 a year. >>
But consider that the tow operator making 70k per year is doing a job that yields significantly more production (and profit) for his employer. Now, contrast that with the CEO, who is being paid northward of 15 million dollar per year in many cases (sometimes more). And this outrageous and scurrilous payment to the management ilk is often for nothing more than providing a management performance that has the company losing money every quarter. 70k for a producing asset to the company compared to 15 mil for drain on shareholder equity is a HUGE and massive difference - and it is only one example, there are many more such grossly unfair discrepancies.
<< <i>Basically we suck at what we do anymore, and do not take responsibility for it. >>
To an extent, this is true enough. However, the "suck" part is not occurring at the worker level. Actually, so-called "worker productivity" has never been better or higher than it is now (even the corporate elitists will admit this). The real "suck" part is occuring at the corporate and management level, where strategic planning, marketing and "cost cutting" are the only things that mangement focuses on. Naturally, when you cut too much cost, and make products in some "GaWaWa land third world country" for pennies on the dollar, the "suck" quotient rises significantly. If you turn the American artisans and craftsmen loose, without corporate restrictions with venal and excessive cost contrainsts placed upon them, and reward them accordingly for the fruit of their labor,creativity, and productivity, you would see outstanding advances in both the quality and performance in American products as it was in times past. Remember the first time a Corvette rolled off the assembly line in 1954? How about the first time a T-Bird came around in 1955? Gorgeous! American engineering and quality at its finest. This was before the days when the corporate elite believed they were "monarchs and kings." Today, they truly believe they are. They see the workers as their slaves not their worker brethren. For them, today, it is "everything for me and nothing for you."
<< <i>Everyone is looking for a handout and the till is running dry. >>
Again, I agree with you. However, the real handout is the one that has been usurped by the corporate management elite with their outrageous and arrogant "golden parachute" payment structures for them and their ilk, while foisting outsourcing and pink slips for the rest. So while shareholder equity and cash is being diverted to pay gross and egregious management compensations, surely none of it is finding its way into the pockets of the typical American worker. Rather, he is forced to take cuts in pay, less payable hours, is compelled to contribute his hard earned cash towards his health benefits (often costing a significant share of his paycheck), and is being told to fund his own retirement with cash from his own already measly salary. On top of this, he is asked to "do more," and be more productive for less. As a result, I see the "handout" sadly going to the top of the ladder not the bottom. The fish always rots from the head down. Thanks Djord. matteproof
said it better myself. Hell of a rant
and true too.
Camelot
There is also quite a bit of arbitrage and "value adding" going on among all coins, as they flow from the "makers" to the "buyers"
I appreciate the digression into the jobs and larger economics markets, since coins are a commodity that is traded along with other goods and services in our society.
I believe that capital flow and utilization grows more efficient as our communications improve.
but back to coins specifically, i think nice coins at good values exist at all economic tiers,
just as junk, ripoffs, and "percent of money spent on the coin that is represented by the grading opinion"
exist at all levels as well. One just notices it more when comparing the highest and lowest tiers.
lots and lots of us in the middle, having a great time with our coins and not worrying about the rest
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>How about all the illegals?Conservative estimates put them at 18 million, which is a major cause
of driving down wages.If cheap labor was not available the prevailing wage would be paid. >>
My apologies, I forgot to respond to your other comment (above) in my previous post. The problem is not with "illegal workers" (I prefer to think of them as "undocumented visitors"). The real problem here is with the employers who hire them for their own selfish benefits. I see the problem as not being an undocumented visitor issue but rather an illegal employer issue. After all, the undocumented visitor is merely trying to eat and feed his family for the most part. It is the employer who, through his illegal actions, is exploiting this man's hunger, paying him crap wages and no benefits. It is a vicious cycle created by corporate interests and all Americans are paying the price in the end analysis. matteproof
<< <i>WOW! Matteproof, I could't have
said it better myself. Hell of a rant
and true too.
Thanks Bear.
Michigan(Democratic Governor), and the country(Republican President), needs great leadership at this point in time. It, and the country, doesn't have it.
<< <i>It doesn't help that many unions agreed to two-tiered labor contracts in recent years in order to protect their more senior members. >>
Sad, but probably true. What's that old saying about "absolute power?" When the workers can muster the courage to control the means of their own production, and therefore maintain ownership over their time and product, they will then have a true shot at becoming liberated. matteproof
-American car mfg. cannot build a cost competitive auto [quality aside]. This has nothing to do with illegals. Protect your workers and lose market share.
-Is what's happening to industry a surprise? It's been happening for decades in the mfg. arena, why are so many surprised. BTW, it will get worse as emerging nations improve their quality and distribution infrastructure.
-In a 'global labor force' world the value of many American jobs is reduced dramatically. My radiologist neighbor lost her job when it was outsourced to a radiologist in India. Yep, the images are emailed to India and consult is done and sent back within 24hr to primary MD. Why? It saves thousands of dollars and makes the hospital more competitive as the insurance companies reimburse less and less. Who benefits? People who buy health insurance! Who loses? Well the 'overpaid' radiologist.
My CPA eliminated a staff of over 50 in just 3 yrs. All the accounting work is done in you guessed it, India. Just him and 3 partners and 2 support staff. He said it allows him to be cost competitive with other CPA firms. He also mentioned nearly every major firm outsources their routine accounting work now.
-Everywhere you turn you hear about the looming health care/Medicare crisis, SS bankruptcy and boomers not having saved enough. Nothing seems to get done about it. I can see the future headlines in 10-15yrs where people will wonder how did it happened so fast.
We have become a nation that lives for today. The long term consequences are dire. But maybe people will seek solace in raw coin collecting to pass the time?
<< <i>Who benefits? People who buy health insurance! Who loses? Well the 'overpaid' radiologist. >>
Sadly, people who "buy" health insurance are paying through the nose for it. A typical family plan of health insurance costs over 1k per month! That does not include prescription either. If full prescription benefits are added to the plan, the cost is increased dramatically from already high premiums. In addition, these already extremely costly monthly health insurance premiums are very likely to go higher still as the years roll on. So, health insurance buyers are not benefiting in the least. The big Insurance companies are benefiting big time.
<< <i>My CPA eliminated a staff of over 50 in just 3 yrs. All the accounting work is done in you guessed it, India. Just him and 3 partners and 2 support staff. He said it allows him to be cost competitive with other CPA firms. He also mentioned nearly every major firm outsources their routine accounting work now. >>
But has the cpa now DECREASED your cost to hire him? If not, then why? Having fired so many of his staff and outsourcing to India to be more cost competitive, I imagine that your cost to hire him would now be at least half of what he used to charge you when he had the 50 employees.
<< <i>Everywhere you turn you hear about the looming health care/Medicare crisis, SS bankruptcy and boomers not having saved enough. Nothing seems to get done about it. I can see the future headlines in 10-15yrs where people will wonder how did it happened so fast. >>
Yes, I hear you. Unfortunately, the massive amounts of debt that so many folks have taken on as a result of their own foolish spending habits, and the bankers who pushed easy credit on them like a candy to a baby (which I have consistently railed against over the years) is taking its toll.
<< <i>We have become a nation that lives for today. The long term consequences are dire. But maybe people will seek solace in raw coin collecting to pass the time? >>
I hear you Tarmac. But the part about the "raw coin" collecting - well - personally, I prefer the slab.
It's a race to the bottom. China is striving to get UP to a poor US wage and the US is striving to cut pay to the level of China.
As soon as it is "leveled out" all the workers can line up at lunch to see the CEO's collection of Fr-G 1940-present Lincolns and ooze suitable praise phrases to keep their jobs while singing the company anthem.
Some larger law firms in the US and the UK are outsourcing their legal work to India. This is for the more routine legal
matters involving paperwork and research that do not require the presence of a lawyer in front of a judge. Indian law is based very similar to US and UK law for many legal matters so it is cost effective to farm the work out to India rather than pay US based lawyers to do the work.
This is not a widespread practice yet, still in its early stages
but watch this become more popular in the years ahead as
more law firms look to cut costs.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>Hi Djord. Thank you for your comments. You make some very solid points.
<< <i>Maybe the unions set the path of destruction by paying tow motor operators $75,000.00 a year. >>
But consider that the tow operator making 70k per year is doing a job that yields significantly more production (and profit) for his employer. Now, contrast that with the CEO, who is being paid northward of 15 million dollar per year in many cases (sometimes more). And this outrageous and scurrilous payment to the management ilk is often for nothing more than providing a management performance that has the company losing money every quarter. 70k for a producing asset to the company compared to 15 mil for drain on shareholder equity is a HUGE and massive difference - and it is only one example, there are many more such grossly unfair discrepancies.
<< <i>Basically we suck at what we do anymore, and do not take responsibility for it. >>
To an extent, this is true enough. However, the "suck" part is not occurring at the worker level. Actually, so-called "worker productivity" has never been better or higher than it is now (even the corporate elitists will admit this). The real "suck" part is occuring at the corporate and management level, where strategic planning, marketing and "cost cutting" are the only things that mangement focuses on. Naturally, when you cut too much cost, and make products in some "GaWaWa land third world country" for pennies on the dollar, the "suck" quotient rises significantly. If you turn the American artisans and craftsmen loose, without corporate restrictions with venal and excessive cost contrainsts placed upon them, and reward them accordingly for the fruit of their labor,creativity, and productivity, you would see outstanding advances in both the quality and performance in American products as it was in times past. Remember the first time a Corvette rolled off the assembly line in 1954? How about the first time a T-Bird came around in 1955? Gorgeous! American engineering and quality at its finest. This was before the days when the corporate elite believed they were "monarchs and kings." Today, they truly believe they are. They see the workers as their slaves not their worker brethren. For them, today, it is "everything for me and nothing for you."
<< <i>Everyone is looking for a handout and the till is running dry. >>
Again, I agree with you. However, the real handout is the one that has been usurped by the corporate management elite with their outrageous and arrogant "golden parachute" payment structures for them and their ilk, while foisting outsourcing and pink slips for the rest. So while shareholder equity and cash is being diverted to pay gross and egregious management compensations, surely none of it is finding its way into the pockets of the typical American worker. Rather, he is forced to take cuts in pay, less payable hours, is compelled to contribute his hard earned cash towards his health benefits (often costing a significant share of his paycheck), and is being told to fund his own retirement with cash from his own already measly salary. On top of this, he is asked to "do more," and be more productive for less. As a result, I see the "handout" sadly going to the top of the ladder not the bottom. The fish always rots from the head down. Thanks Djord. matteproof >>
What have you been reading lately Karl Marx?
Stockholders that had the forsight to invest and make money should be penalized? Sounds like your talking about a redistribution of
wealth?Capitalism is the name of the game, and this is what makes us great! Everyone has the same opportunity.
Production up yes it is, but so are costs to produce that product.Oh the poor GM exec makes 20million a year in a company that
counts its proceeds in billions, oh if they only stop paying the execs and stock holders so much everthing would be ok!
Big problem is the biggest drain on GM and other large corporations are the wages and benefits.
Oh please its the millionaires that are ruining it for the little people, the fantasy of the left and this keeps the little people in the
leftist fold insuring votes for life.When all the manufacturing jobs are gone who will the left have to blame then!
Costs are the driver, look at the bottom lime of Toyota and GM with the only difference being Toyota is 20 years behind GM in coming
to the same predicament.
The fish in this case are the Socialist!
I'm gonna go into my cave and wait
till things are better. After all I can live
on jelly donuts. They have the three basic
food groups...Fat.....starch....sugar............
Camelot
Not cost savings has been passed onto me or others I presume. However, his rates have not changed in 30 mos. I guess that's how he remains competitive. He feels he cannot raise his rates so he has to cut his overhead.
Same holds true for health insurance. Take a look at profitability for the majors, sure their profits are up but only a fraction compared to the double digit increases in premium. Where does it go? Well, the cost of complying with ever mind numbing regulation. More paperwork, more audits, more automation, etc. We really are our own worse enemy sometimes.
Now I fully understand why so many go naked - w/o health insurance. If you want a real horror story check out the cover story of Barrons newspaper about 3-4 weeks ago. Municipalities have nearly $1 TRILLION in unfunded health insurance liabilities. Either promised benefits will be cut or eliminated but we can rest assured state income taxes and junk fees [campgrounds, boating permits, etc] will double and triple soon.
<< <i>My CPA eliminated a staff of over 50 in just 3 yrs. All the accounting work is done in you guessed it, India. Just him and 3 partners and 2 support staff. He said it allows him to be cost competitive with other CPA firms. He also mentioned nearly every major firm outsources their routine accounting work now. >>
I have a CPA firm as well and use this sort of sad commentary as a marketing tool to my clients and others to assure them that we do NOT outsource our work to India, etc.
We are now growing at a unprecedented rate. We are now turning work away.
I simply tell my clients that if they want us to cut our fees that they can outsource their own work directly to India and then when it is all done, give us a phone call.
day for America with a lot of fingerpointing going on as to where
it all went wrong. GM is losing $24 million dollars per day or $1
million per hour. Their cash reserves are still healthy at around $19
billion but being eaten away at a steady rate, last year they had
around $25 billion to draw on. They are desperately trying to raise
cash by selling various assets, they will have to bail out Delphi at
a cost of maybe $5-6 billion. There is a report online called
"The tragedy of General Motors". Worth a read if you are interested
in a more indepth analysis of what is going on with that company.
Many consumers and company's got lucky the last 5 years and may pay a big price if their heads have gotten too big.
I hope it's not true but I see signs of a lot of foolish spending ----cars, real estate, coins(gawd forbid) the last few years ---almost like some people think that every deal is the last deal they will ever see.
<< <i> What have you been reading lately Karl Marx? >>
I've read and studied a number of philosophers, economists, theologians, and ethicists in my day. I don't agree with much of Marx at all, but I do believe that ownership of the means of production is more wisely vested with the creators of the product itself, not with an elite management system made up primarily of bankers or those who produce nothing. In that regard, I'm more a fan of Max Weber, Hobbes' determinism, and John Calvin. I'm surprised you couldn't see that from my argument for entreprenurship.
<< <i> Stockholders that had the forsight to invest and make money should be penalized? >>
My comment was; "So while shareholder equity and cash is being diverted to pay gross and egregious management compensations, surely none of it is finding its way into the pockets of the typical American worker. That is a pro shareholder idea. The corporate treasury belongs to the shareholders. It is not a piggy bank to be plucked for the benefit of the management class at the expense of the shareholders and the company's workers.
<< <i> Sounds like your talking about a redistribution of wealth? >>
The redistribution of wealth that you speak of is occuring is at the management class level. They are the ones that are redistributing shareholder and worker assets into their own grossly vulgar over compensated salaries, perks, stock options, and golden parachute arrangements. I agree with your point that redistributing wealth is a socialist concept - so why are the management elites redistributing the shareholders assets among themselves?
<< <i>Capitalism is the name of the game, and this is what makes us great! >>
I agree. Capitalism is an economic system where the means of production, and the products created and produced as a result, are privately owned (and hopefully sold for profits). I feel that the actual creators and producers of that product should be the owners of it. Entreprenurship makes this possible. Meanwhile, the management class of the corporate monarchy creates nothing, yet they themselves along with their cohorts recieve more perks, and more compensation while laying off and outsourcing the jobs of those who actually create the products that make the American capitalist system work.
<< <i> Everyone has the same opportunity. >>
Now I know you are "April fooling me."
<< <i>Big problem is the biggest drain on GM and other large corporations are the wages and benefits. >>
The biggest drain at GM is a mangement class that failed to figure out what kind of cars people like to buy these days. Do you want to blame GM's recent horrible performance on the guy who works the conveyor belt? Who's fault is it that GM stock is trading in the dungeon, and that its fortunes are currently so dismal?
<< <i>Oh please its the millionaires that are ruining it for the little people, the fantasy of the left and this keeps the little people in the leftist fold insuring votes for life. >>
This has little or nothing to do with "left" or "right" politics. This is pure economics. As for "millionaries," there are as many of them on the left as are on the right (maybe more). Corporate management (so-called) are supposed to run a company for the benefit of the shareholders, not for the benefit of themselves and their management clique. As for the workers, they are not the "little people." They are the backbone and the producers that make America run and work - and they have been doing so largely at a paltry $6.50 an hour while the non-producing mangement class take in millions. Surely, this is not the capitalism that the forefathers knew. matteproof
<< <i>Same holds true for health insurance. Take a look at profitability for the majors, sure their profits are up but only a fraction compared to the double digit increases in premium. Where does it go? >>
I hear you Tarmac. However, it seems that the Big Insurance companies are doing well even with the natural disasters, Katrina and other hickeys that recently hurt them (of course this is not health care insurance specifically, but the profits and losses all come down to the same bottom line). With health care, when a policy holder uses too much service, the insurance companies start denying claims, or make policy holders jump through hoops to get paid or have the doctor get paid. Certain patient services or procedures suggested by physicians are sometimes denied by the Insurance companies too (turning insurance companies into practicing medical practitioners making medical decisions). Of course, the management of these Insurance companies are grossly compensated for their services, and this along with such other costs are bound to cut into the shareholders money and the balance sheet bottom line.
<< <i>Well, the cost of complying with ever mind numbing regulation. More paperwork, more audits, more automation, etc. We really are our own worse enemy sometimes. >>
Yes, it is true that the regulations can be very burdensome and costly. Things like the relatively recent Sorbanes Oxley rules were certainly costly for compliance at companies. However, recall that the costly compliance for Sorbanes Oxley regulations resulted from the flagrant management (mis-management) practices at the highest corporate levels. You are very correct when you say that we can sometimes be our own worst enemies.
<< <i> Now I fully understand why so many go naked - w/o health insurance. If you want a real horror story check out the cover story of Barrons newspaper about 3-4 weeks ago. Municipalities have nearly $1 TRILLION in unfunded health insurance liabilities. Either promised benefits will be cut or eliminated but we can rest assured state income taxes and junk fees [campgrounds, boating permits, etc] will double and triple soon. >>
Yes, it is a very sad scenario Tarmac. As a nation and otherwise, we will have to become far more responsible at every level going forward. If so, I believe that we can turn things around - but it won't be easy and there will undoubtedly need to be some sacrifice made to make it work. America is still the greatest nation on earth, and we have not lost our "luster" or "rainbow toning" yet!
I am a CPA and have just finished a very long work day. If you are trying to make money by volume and accept anyone who comes into the door as a client, as a CPA, you don't know how to run your business.
People who only want a tax return done go to one of the many bookkeeping services whose staff takes a 6 to 8 week course on how to use basic tax software. This is the kind of stuff that gets outsourced to India. I don't do this kind of work.
People with whom I do business see me as a tax professional, not a "form-filler-outer." You can't get the expertise I have along with the level of service from a local bookkeeping service, or some guy in India (or somewhere else).
In the over 20 years I have been in this business, I may have been asked to reduce fees maybe five or ten times. In the case of personal hardship of a client with whom I have had a relationship, I've gone along with his request. If anyone else wants to negotiate fees, I show him / her the door.
I might add, that business has never been better, and I am turning away work.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
1) If we continue to outsource everything in God's creation, where will the opportunity come from in the future? Sure, some people can start their own business, but some people just aren't cut out for that kind of responsibility. The way I see it, the Walmartization of the world will result in globally suppressed wages and a world where there is no where to run, because you either work for a world multinational or die. Walmart did start this ridiculous outsourcing trend on a mass scale, so they committed the original sin (ironically while waving the flag lol).
2) Regarding workers- Before I started my own business, I worked for several years in the corporate world, and I worked alongside workers that developed a bad attitude because they knew that the company would stiff them in a minute if it meant that the execs could make some extra yacht money. For those complaining about worker non-productivity, have you ever considered your integrity and treating people like humans instead of animals?
3) Regarding US Capitalism- Capitialism ONLY works if there is a level playing field. Small and medium sized businesses are what built this country (I say small and medium compared to today's global corporate monsters), and they are being squashed left and right. Walmart alone shut down small business in a whole town in CO where a friend of mine makes service runs and caused the place to lose most of the small businesses. If you want a good example of how there is NOT a level playing field out there to compete, consider the independant gas stations that recently testified before Democrats in Congress (the GOP turned down their request for a hearing) and told of how they were being charged more for gasoline than the "named" chain gas stations and were asking for an anti-trust investigation into the matter (this was aired on C-Span live by the way).
4) Regarding Unions- The Unions have their sins, but this has nothing to do with outsourcing. If you want a good example of how greedy these execs are, just look up the Travelocity call center story on the net to see how brazen they are. In a nut shell, the state of VA gave money to Travelocity to build a call center in the VA Appalacians to stimulate the local very depressed economy that was NON-UNION and paid $6.50 an hour with some modest benefits. After building that center with taxpayer money and staying open only a year, Travelocity execs decided it was more profitable to move to India where labor was still cheaper, thus laying off everyone.
In summary, I believe that the several thousand individuals responsible for this behavior are going to destroy true competitive Capitalism and usher in a Coporate Oligarchy that has more in relation to medieval serfdoms than anything in relation to old-time American business. I'm particularly miffed that everywhere I go I'm forced to buy foreign-made cheap products that wear out so quickly that I spend more on replacing them than on what I save on the initial spending cost.
I'm at the point where I actively seek out American made products (that are quality of course) and avoid buying any cheaply made foreign product unless there's no reasonable alternative. I also think that these same ultra-rich (I'm talking Forbes Top 200) that are perpetrating these sins are living for today, because they know that tomorrow they and their families will be well off while everyone else will have have to eat crow. I like how matteproof used the term "Monarchy", because that's how these guys act. This is an issue that affects Americans who are anything from millionaires to minimum wage workers, because it's the guys with REALLY big bucks (billionaires) who are so reckless right now and who seek total economic domination, which means NO ONE is safe unless you are their peer. Most of the politicans work for them because they fund their campaigns and bribe them as well, and it has to change (aka election finance reform). God Bless America!
Cheers,
BigBen
i had the sense to leave the state. I am now in NH and if you
know NH, it is a huge breath of fresh air.
delphi made car parts. imagine a person sitting in a chair
grabbing little metal parts and placing them in a bin. they are
paid 50,000+, full benefits, etc...
does anyone seriously expect that type of job to exist now days?
please... that is why delphi is dying. it is the longest running joke
in MI.
as for GM, there reason for failure, imho, is not making a car
that an average joe like me wants to buy brand new.
why bother when i got a 1994 toyota corolla used for 800 dollars
and runs like a dream.
wow off topic, but fun to rant.
i think coin collecting will be just fine. sure prices will drop and fall
like the tide, but it is the oldest hobby i know of and will continue
to exist for the collectors. who cares about the middlemen trying
to make a career out of a hobby.
NO!
It is a THREE-tiered market. You need to remember the circulated coins such as common wheaties, G-VG Indian head cents, liberty head nickels, the barber dimes, quarters and halves as well as uncirculated/proof coins such as the less expensive moderns comprises much of the third tier.
This is a very important tier that is usually the entry way into coin collecting for over 99% of new and young collectors.
<< <i> Small and medium sized businesses are what built this country (I say small and medium compared to today's global corporate monsters), and they are being squashed left and right. >>
This is very true. And small business is, of course, started by entrepreneurs. The entrepreneur is a sort of “revolutionary.” He gets the ball rolling so to speak. However, once success has been attained, and the small business starts to grow, the founder/entrepreneur is often duped into believing that he “needs” a management class to help him run his already successful business. Why the entrepreneur comes to believe he needs this has more to do with his sense of being “socially insecure.” He is impressionable with regards to what he perceives are the presumed qualifications of others, a false impression, believing that he needs their input, despite having already succeeded without them. This is a tremendous sociological dynamic rather than an economic one, and management elitists take full advantage of this delusion (they are probably self-deluded in this too).
I maintain that the so-called management class secretly disdains the entrepreneur because they lack his prowess, courage, and pioneer spirit. It is well known that envy and treachery are built into the heart and soul of the impotent management culture. They are reknowned for their boardroom backstabbings and Judas style behavior. The phrase "climbing the corporate ladder" is dervied from their antics. And, in the final analysis, they do not produce anything or create wealth. They take it.
One last observation: more often than not, it is the entrepreneur’s sons (children) who after taking over the business from dad, bring in management who in turn pillage or ruin the business. It seems to be a near absolute truth that the children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren of self-made men wind up being outrageously spoiled, pampered, elitists themselves, lacking the inborn skills of the pioneering patriarch. This because the entrepreneur dad often worked hard to give to his kids what he himself did not have (perhaps a higher education for example) and this entrepreneur dad mistakenly worked very hard to expose his progeny to “old money culture,” a so-called “better life” that he himself was probably denied (which is perhaps why he had a true entrepreneur spirit in the first place). In the end, these children wind up being suck up boys for those who later become the management class of the dad’s business; and there may even be a pathetic "dad knows nothing and I know everything" attitude among the children of successful entreprenuers. It’s a vicious cycle.
I believe that the several thousand individuals responsible for this behavior are going to destroy true competitive Capitalism and usher in a Coporate Oligarchy that has more in relation to medieval serfdoms than anything in relation to old-time American business.
I couldn’t possibly agree more with you BigBen. I believe this dynamic is already well underway. Thank you again for your thoughts BigBen. matteproof
<< <i>i was born in michigan and stayed there for 25 years until
i had the sense to leave the state. I am now in NH and if you
know NH, it is a huge breath of fresh air.
delphi made car parts. imagine a person sitting in a chair
grabbing little metal parts and placing them in a bin. they are
paid 50,000+, full benefits, etc...
does anyone seriously expect that type of job to exist now days?
please... that is why delphi is dying. it is the longest running joke
in MI.
as for GM, there reason for failure, imho, is not making a car
that an average joe like me wants to buy brand new.
why bother when i got a 1994 toyota corolla used for 800 dollars
and runs like a dream.
wow off topic, but fun to rant.
i think coin collecting will be just fine. sure prices will drop and fall
like the tide, but it is the oldest hobby i know of and will continue
to exist for the collectors. who cares about the middlemen trying
to make a career out of a hobby. >>
*****************************************************************************************
***Why don't you collect Japanese coinage and currency and leave the American Coinage for me...............
<< <i>delphi made car parts. imagine a person sitting in a chair grabbing little metal parts and placing them in a bin. they are paid 50,000+, full benefits, etc... >>
I hear your point. Yet, that person placing little metal parts into a bin, puts in many little parts over the course of the year, all of it contributing to the end product. So, for that 50k plus benefits, this person might have participated in producing hundreds of thousands of car parts, each of them sold at large profits that far exceed his 50k cost.
<< <i>does anyone seriously expect that type of job to exist now days? please... >>
You are correct in a sense. But these jobs DO still exist, just not in America, and as a result it hurts America. That is because managements across corporate America have outsourced these still very worthy jobs, along with factories and production centers, to third world countries. There, corporations find new workers in those foreign countries who they can exploit for pennies on the dollar.
<< <i>...that is why delphi is dying. it is the longest running joke in MI. >>
Delphi is dying because the management class failed at their primary duty. It is beyond a doubt that any management at any company is responsible for its company's results. The guy placing parts in a bin certainly isn't responsible.
<< <i>...as for GM, there reason for failure, imho, is not making a car that an average joe like me wants to buy brand new. >>
I agree entirely. And as I mentioned in an earlier post, not making cars that people actually want to buy is the fault of management.
<< <i>wow off topic, but fun to rant. >>
Interestingly, it is not as off topic as you might initially think. Numismatics, to a very large degree, is a celebration of American values and the American way of life. A Chain Cent is just an ugly design until you know what the design actually represents. The 1792 half disme has a chick on the obverse who looks like she has been frightened to death, like she has just seen a ghost, but then you reflect upon the meaning behind the "Lib.Par. of Science & Industry" motto on the coin. In the end, dialogue and lively debate are the KEY ingredients for an increase in knowledge (including the knowledge of science and industry) and it is such dialogue that seperates America from oppressed nation states across the globe. Our coins, with their diverse series and designs, are material representations of America's tremendous and glorious values. matteproof
Walmart of course is the classic example. They set up the stores outside of small and medium sized towns and put the little mom and pop operations out of business since they can't compete price wise with Walmart.
Many sad stories, one Walmart here in mid Michigan put a pharmacy that was in one family for several generations out of business within
a year after Walmart came to town. They just couldn't compete on
price.
your thoughts have made this a very interesting thread.
thank you for taking the time to type such long replies!