Authenticating Gold
howboutdemcoins
Posts: 82
I'm new to the boards (my first post) but I've been lurking for quite some time. I've been reading about all the fake gold out there and it made me wonder about a couple of pieces that I have. One is unslabbed and the other is in a 3rd world holder. I plan on showing both to a couple of dealers. Do you think it would be better to show the slabbed one as is or crack it open and put it in a saflip prior to getting an opinion? My thought is that the 3rd world holder might bias the opinion. Also any advice or web sight link that may help me determine authenticity would be appreciated also. Thanks in advance for any advice.
can't get enough!!!
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Welcome to the boards!
Post pics here. Although we can't authenticate from a pic, we might be able to prove it to be a fake from a pic.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
TorinoCobra71
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Thanks for the input Perry. When you say expert, does you mean only through a grading service? I'll be going to a show next weekend so I'm sure to run into at least a couple of dealers that deal with a lot of gold. I figured if they gave their "looks good to me" blessing, then it will be worth the money to get the experts opinion and grade. >>
That would work. Big dealers that specialize in US gold need to be able to authenticate their product. I've seen too many raw US gold coin fakes in the cases of smaller dealers that don't specialize in this area.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>What are the dates? I'll check my copy of Bill Fivaz's United States Gold Counterfeit Detection Guide for diagnostics of common counterfeits of those particular dates. >>
As far as the Indian $2 1/2 gold coins, you could put an entire set of 15 together using nothing but counterfeit coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
>>>My Collection
Thanks for the "Welcome" Artist
<< <i>As far as the Indian $2 1/2 gold coins, you could put an entire set of 15 together using nothing but counterfeit coins. >>
Yes, I've seen a couple of those. The Indian quarter eagles are much more frequently counterfeited than the liberty half eagles.
Most modern gold counterfeits are struck to fool collectors. They won't have a casting seam, and the size and weight will be pretty close to correct. I look for raised lumps and lunar craters in the fields and spikes from the denticles on Libs. Sometimes the devices don't rise from the field sharply enough for the coin to be real. I have a hard time seeing the tooling marks on the Indian's neck. I don't even think about buying raw Indians.
I checked Bill Fivaz's United States Gold Counterfeit Detection Guide.
He doesn't examine any counterfeit 1926 quarter eagles, but here's what he says about the 1882-P $5 (or at least one common counterfeit of that date):
= = =
- on the obverse, look for a tool mark under the "1" in the date. There will be raised blemishes in the field in front of the face. Also look for a long tool mark in the field, under the bun of Liberty's hair.
- on the reverse, look for tool marks at the "RI" in AMERICA, under the "F" in FIVE, and between the eagle's left wing and the scroll. There will be tool marks through many of the dentils.
= = =
These are repeating characteristics that occur on all of the 'coins' struck from a particular set of counterfeit dies.
In the book, Bill has enlargements of all of these diagnostics so you see exactly what to look for.
I know the verbal description alone isn't as good as having the photos to follow along with, but I hope this helps!
-- Dentuck
I'm happy to write that I didn't see any of those identifiers that you mentioned. The sad part is the coin looked more beat up under the 20X loop than it does with the naked eye but that's to be expected.
I ran the weight and diameter diagnostics too. I haven't pull it out of the 2X2 yet but in the holder it It weighed 11 grams. Redbook weight says 8.359 grams so I'm guessing it's in the ballpark. Diameter is 21.6mm. Looking good so far!
Item BKF13 List price $19.95 (non-members)
United States Gold Counterfeit Detection Guide
Good luck!
Risk is to high.....
Raven - Agree with you totally but I must have had a "stupid" moment. (Probably because I wasn't reading this board at the time)
Becoka and Bill - I'll see if I can find an expert this weekend to take a look. If he thinks it looks good, the $2.50 is getting cracked and definitely going in for slabbing. Don't think the $5 would be worth slabbing but I'd feel more comfortable if an expert tells me it looks good.
Sorry PCGS, but the PCGS grading guide (both editions) is inadequate IMO. There are too few photos. EVERY type of coin show be shown in the circulated grades.
Still you can study the books until the cows come home, NOTHING can replace the need to look at as many coins as possible ideally with the help of an experienced grader. Studying the book and looking at as many coins as possible is the only way to learn to grade coins.
<< <i>For the past 30 years most fake US gold coins have been made of the proper fineness, weight, and diameter so these tests are not conclusive unless they fail. You need a true expert (not the typical coin dealer) to examine these coins under a stereo microscope. Counterfeits these days are that good. >>
Absolutely. Die struck counterfeits exist aplenty and are extremely good.
PS: Welcome!!
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I have the PCGS book also as multiple sources are good to have.....
Grading takes alot of time along with reading and seeing coins to get good at grading.....
I feel I am able to grade the coins I collect in the grades I collect pretty well so.
Gold is basically a different beast simply because the prices out so high compared to the dollars the average collector has