Some random thoughts from the last two shows I've attended.
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
Both shows were medium sized and club related, with perhaps 30-45 tables each and running for two days. I helped the local dealer on each occasion. For the most part they were well attended and there seemed to be interest in completing sets of more Modern series' and an interest in 2006 coins, especially the SAE's which many dealers still don't have. The most sought after series was definitely Mercury Dimes in grades through XF while the keys like 1916-D and the 1921's were naturally acceptable in lower grades, any grades actually. But hey, here are some observations........................
-----Bulk silver seems to be making it's way to the melting pots since the spot price is up. My pal pays better than most and works on a slimmer margin so we do a lot of that type of buying. Unless a seller has sorted out the Mercury Dimes, SLQ's and Walkers, we rarely sort them out ourselves. During the course of the two shows we probably bought/sold over $3000 face that I saw with collectors making arrangements to either come to the shop or have my pal travel to where they live to buy collections and bulk. The potential for rare varieties being lost seems realistic if you consider that this type of thing is happening at shows nationwide.
-----Ditto for Wheat Cents. We put well over 200 rolls through the coin counter.
-----Collectors seem willing to sort through bins/binders to find what they want. We use both folders and bins with coins stapled in 2X2's. I spend most of the show-time at the folders and "running/sorting" and it seems that Kennedy Half-Dollars are always popular along with the aforementioned Mercs. My pal grumbled that his helper at the shop needs to restock the binders.
-----I spent some time talking with a forum member about the fact that key dates in circulated grades seem to be always in demand. Sometimes I think we get stuck on high grades, especially Mint State and/or toned coins, disregarding what the majority of collectors want. We couldn't help with calls for 1916 and 1917 Walkers, 1921 Mercs, the perpetual '09-S VDB(we had a PCGS VG8 on consignment for a fixed price), 1932-D and S Quarters, etc. My thought is that if I'd have been buying that kind of stuff five years ago instead of working on my Proof Jefferson set I'd be sitting pretty right now!!
-----Many of the smaller dealers must not be smart buyers. They don't seem to sell much because there prices are high. I remarked to another dealer that I'd walked the floor to make sure there was nothing I could buy, a sentiment shared by many others. His funny answer: "Why would they bring stuff that they can't sell and leave everything else at home?? This isn't a museum, it's a show!!" One Pittsburgh area dealer had three tables next to us of almost exclusively white top tier holdered coins with a nice variety...................but when I asked why he didn't have any Shield Nickels, he said "I don't bring that kind of stuff to the smaller shows" but if I was at Baltimore he'd have some. The same dealer came to our table Sunday morning to inquire about the Ohio sales tax. He was excited and we joked that he finally had a buyer. My thoughts are that he misjudged the collector market for that show.
-----Do counterfieters ever quit and do collectors ever stop getting fooled?? We saw the usual assortment of Trade Dollars along with an '09-S VDB and a 1916-D Merc.
-----Ditto for the TV guys and the poor folks who buy from them. We had several sellers walk away with the knowledge that they got scalped and their "collection" was worth about half of what they paid. Others had stuff like Franklin Mint or Washington Mint issues, nice pieces but with a limited market and no premium.
-----There are Proof Sets from the 50's that bear scrutiny by anyone who has access to them. The ones in the original packaging seem to get looked at by the dealers but the ones in Capitol Holders are treated as a commodity(and they are generally the better looking sets). I looked at hundreds of Mint Sets during the two shows and didn't buy any. Most are beat up to the point where the coins are starting to suffer from the constant movement and friction.
-----Many dealers adamantly refuse to buy an ANACS holdered coin even when they agree that the coin is nice. Comments like "If it were in a PCGS or NGC holder" are common. Many of those same dealers seem aloof to most of the varieties and stuff like that which are common knowledge here. I always try to help but it's a losing cause. My pal will listen but he tells me I'm wasting my time with most of the guys. They seem to know "key dates" and pricing, but care little to know anything else. Collectors will listen and I even have some asking about errors and varieties. My motto is that an educated collector is a better customer.
There's more but that seems to be the gist of what happened at both shows. I managed to buy a few nice early Proof Sets, a 1952 and a 1953, both in Capitol plastic, a nicely toned 1979 Type One SBA in an ANACS holder, some raw Lincolns from the late 1940's with attractive album tone, several 1968-1971 Proof Sets and some other assorted items. Perhaps the best buy was a still in the cello Breen's Encyclopedia that I paid $81 for. We found a couple of nice restaraunts and a couple of Motels to be avoided, some plusses and minusses of lif on the road!!!
All-in-all they were a few nice weekend spent at one of my favorite places-----coin shows.
I'll close with a two funny snipets, both happend yesterday in Indiana, Pennsylvania. We had a guy walking around, some old-timer who claimed to have seen "a couple" 1964 Peace Dollars. I saw him make the same comment to several of the dealers and get the same response. For the second one, there was a dealer set up across the aisle from us who had brought his wife along, she talked loud and constant while he seemed to be a nice guy of few words!!! My pal said on Saturday that if she didn't quiet down he might have to start hitting the bottle early. Well, Sunday morning she wondered over and grabbed hold of my ear, rattling on about everything under the sun. After 5-10 minutes my pal came over and handed me his cell phone, said it was for me. I took the phone, said hello, turned away and only got the joke when I saw him smiling. She went back across the aisle none the wiser and I thanked the guys for the rscue!!!
Stay safe and have fun with your coins.
Al H.
-----Bulk silver seems to be making it's way to the melting pots since the spot price is up. My pal pays better than most and works on a slimmer margin so we do a lot of that type of buying. Unless a seller has sorted out the Mercury Dimes, SLQ's and Walkers, we rarely sort them out ourselves. During the course of the two shows we probably bought/sold over $3000 face that I saw with collectors making arrangements to either come to the shop or have my pal travel to where they live to buy collections and bulk. The potential for rare varieties being lost seems realistic if you consider that this type of thing is happening at shows nationwide.
-----Ditto for Wheat Cents. We put well over 200 rolls through the coin counter.
-----Collectors seem willing to sort through bins/binders to find what they want. We use both folders and bins with coins stapled in 2X2's. I spend most of the show-time at the folders and "running/sorting" and it seems that Kennedy Half-Dollars are always popular along with the aforementioned Mercs. My pal grumbled that his helper at the shop needs to restock the binders.
-----I spent some time talking with a forum member about the fact that key dates in circulated grades seem to be always in demand. Sometimes I think we get stuck on high grades, especially Mint State and/or toned coins, disregarding what the majority of collectors want. We couldn't help with calls for 1916 and 1917 Walkers, 1921 Mercs, the perpetual '09-S VDB(we had a PCGS VG8 on consignment for a fixed price), 1932-D and S Quarters, etc. My thought is that if I'd have been buying that kind of stuff five years ago instead of working on my Proof Jefferson set I'd be sitting pretty right now!!
-----Many of the smaller dealers must not be smart buyers. They don't seem to sell much because there prices are high. I remarked to another dealer that I'd walked the floor to make sure there was nothing I could buy, a sentiment shared by many others. His funny answer: "Why would they bring stuff that they can't sell and leave everything else at home?? This isn't a museum, it's a show!!" One Pittsburgh area dealer had three tables next to us of almost exclusively white top tier holdered coins with a nice variety...................but when I asked why he didn't have any Shield Nickels, he said "I don't bring that kind of stuff to the smaller shows" but if I was at Baltimore he'd have some. The same dealer came to our table Sunday morning to inquire about the Ohio sales tax. He was excited and we joked that he finally had a buyer. My thoughts are that he misjudged the collector market for that show.
-----Do counterfieters ever quit and do collectors ever stop getting fooled?? We saw the usual assortment of Trade Dollars along with an '09-S VDB and a 1916-D Merc.
-----Ditto for the TV guys and the poor folks who buy from them. We had several sellers walk away with the knowledge that they got scalped and their "collection" was worth about half of what they paid. Others had stuff like Franklin Mint or Washington Mint issues, nice pieces but with a limited market and no premium.
-----There are Proof Sets from the 50's that bear scrutiny by anyone who has access to them. The ones in the original packaging seem to get looked at by the dealers but the ones in Capitol Holders are treated as a commodity(and they are generally the better looking sets). I looked at hundreds of Mint Sets during the two shows and didn't buy any. Most are beat up to the point where the coins are starting to suffer from the constant movement and friction.
-----Many dealers adamantly refuse to buy an ANACS holdered coin even when they agree that the coin is nice. Comments like "If it were in a PCGS or NGC holder" are common. Many of those same dealers seem aloof to most of the varieties and stuff like that which are common knowledge here. I always try to help but it's a losing cause. My pal will listen but he tells me I'm wasting my time with most of the guys. They seem to know "key dates" and pricing, but care little to know anything else. Collectors will listen and I even have some asking about errors and varieties. My motto is that an educated collector is a better customer.
There's more but that seems to be the gist of what happened at both shows. I managed to buy a few nice early Proof Sets, a 1952 and a 1953, both in Capitol plastic, a nicely toned 1979 Type One SBA in an ANACS holder, some raw Lincolns from the late 1940's with attractive album tone, several 1968-1971 Proof Sets and some other assorted items. Perhaps the best buy was a still in the cello Breen's Encyclopedia that I paid $81 for. We found a couple of nice restaraunts and a couple of Motels to be avoided, some plusses and minusses of lif on the road!!!
All-in-all they were a few nice weekend spent at one of my favorite places-----coin shows.I'll close with a two funny snipets, both happend yesterday in Indiana, Pennsylvania. We had a guy walking around, some old-timer who claimed to have seen "a couple" 1964 Peace Dollars. I saw him make the same comment to several of the dealers and get the same response. For the second one, there was a dealer set up across the aisle from us who had brought his wife along, she talked loud and constant while he seemed to be a nice guy of few words!!! My pal said on Saturday that if she didn't quiet down he might have to start hitting the bottle early. Well, Sunday morning she wondered over and grabbed hold of my ear, rattling on about everything under the sun. After 5-10 minutes my pal came over and handed me his cell phone, said it was for me. I took the phone, said hello, turned away and only got the joke when I saw him smiling. She went back across the aisle none the wiser and I thanked the guys for the rscue!!!
Stay safe and have fun with your coins.
Al H.
0
Comments
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Nice read. I think you have a very good feel for that really goes on at the small/medium shows and what collectors are really looking for, in general.
BTW, is Rich coming to Marietta April 1st & 2nd? And, if he is, will you be able to come down with him?
If not, We are looking forward to seeing you at Central States in Columbus.
I wonder if you don't see more fakes at a smaller show because people are hoping to stick someone who might not be as knowledgable or have a lot of experts around to consult with. We don't get a lot of reports of shows like Indiana.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I would have attended but I got confused as to where I should go, Indiana or Pennsylvania
<< <i>there seemed to be interest in completing sets of more Modern series' and an interest in 2006 coins, especially the SAE's >>
<< <i>Collectors seem willing to sort through bins/binders to find what they want >>
<< <i>key dates in circulated grades seem to be always in demand. Sometimes I think we get stuck on high grades, especially Mint State and/or toned coins, disregarding what the majority of collectors want >>
<< <i>Many of the smaller dealers must not be smart buyers >>
I'll add this about the last comment I quoted...collectors determine quickly which small dealers are not the smart buyers and they bring all of their (fill in the blank junk) to these dealers to unload.
Again, great job. Yours is one of the best coin show reports I have read on this forum.
Thank you for posting it..
Paul
Cartwheel
Cartwheel's Showcase Coins
i'm not sure about Marietta, i have Rich's schedule and it's not mentioned. i have that weekend off but haven't made a "plan" yet. the ol' woman might want me to stay home for a weekend since April and early May will be busy for shows.
as for Gold, there wasn't much at either show although we bought some K'rands and Generics and a couple of collectors inquired about $2.5 Indians and Gold Dollars. you need to remember that it was much easier for people to sock away silver at face value and also to buy it when the price sags. Gold has always had the premium attached to it so it's more of a Numismatic collectible and shows up less at the smaller shows. i did notice some, both raw and slabbed in cases, just not as much as what's at larger shows. some dealers at regional shows have nothing but Gold, like the Marietta show mentioned above. i saw a dealer there a few years ago with three showcases of certified Gold.
back to silver................i forgot about the 108 ounce assay bar we bought shaped like an ingot; that bugger had future SAE's written all over it!! another dealer i talked to "speculated" on some bulk silver, 10 and 25 ounce bars. he said he rarely does that because he's afraid he'll lose money, something i couldn't understand. it told me he was operating outside of his "niche" and was asking for trouble. the way most of the guys that deal in bulk operate is to lock-in prior to a show based on the Friday closing price and delivering Monday. if things open Monday higher or lower it doesn't matter, the deal was "done" at the Friday price. when i explained that to the "speculator and his pal" they looked at me like i had two heads. they had bought without having it sold and now need to find a buyer so they're worried while the guys who do it regularly only need to wait for the supply to reach them. it may seem like small money but it pays for expenses, and then some.
we had a third guy along with us for this show and he makes a market in silver rounds and bars via shows and on eBay, saying that he has access to a 24 hour spot for silver/gold. he bought one designer bar for $13 that he said he knows he can sell via eBay for $80. i had no idea there was even a market for that kind of stuff along with a high priced reference book on bars and silver rounds. he told me he averages $500/month in postage to ship what he sells on eBay.
Sometimes I think we get stuck on high grades, especially Mint State and/or toned coins, disregarding what the majority of collectors want.
I often forget that this forum is not necessarily a cross-section of the typical collector base, but instead a fairly concentrated group of pretty intense collectors, especially the regular posters.
A local store dealer told me last week that a lot of Franklin Mint material has come into the store since the silver price went up. Virtually all of it is going directly to the smelter.
<< <i>
-----Bulk silver seems to be making it's way to the melting pots since the spot price is up. My pal pays better than most and works on a slimmer margin so we do a lot of that type of buying. Unless a seller has sorted out the Mercury Dimes, SLQ's and Walkers, we rarely sort them out ourselves. During the course of the two shows we probably bought/sold over $3000 face that I saw with collectors making arrangements to either come to the shop or have my pal travel to where they live to buy collections and bulk. The potential for rare varieties being lost seems realistic if you consider that this type of thing is happening at shows nationwide.
>>
Something I have wondered about again as silver has risen...does most of this stuff really make it into the melting pot? Or is it blown off to another dealer who blows it off to another one who combines it with his bags of 90% coins and then sells it to some collector or speculator only to enter the marketplace once again as individual coins or bulk lots?
My Web Sites
Have not been to a show since November
<< <i>Excellent report and astute and well-articulated commentary. My favorite was:
Sometimes I think we get stuck on high grades, especially Mint State and/or toned coins, disregarding what the majority of collectors want.
I often forget that this forum is not necessarily a cross-section of the typical collector base, but instead a fairly concentrated group of pretty intense collectors, especially the regular posters. >>
Great comment and so very true.
<< <i>
<< <i>Excellent report and astute and well-articulated commentary. My favorite was:
Sometimes I think we get stuck on high grades, especially Mint State and/or toned coins, disregarding what the majority of collectors want.
I often forget that this forum is not necessarily a cross-section of the typical collector base, but instead a fairly concentrated group of pretty intense collectors, especially the regular posters. >>
Great comment and so very true. >>
The trouble is what collectors want is not always the best buy from the economic perspective. I learned years ago that collecting sets in the circulated grades often leads to getting less than you paid for the coins, even if you hold them for years.
After 5-10 minutes my pal came over and handed me his cell phone, said it was for me. I took the phone, said hello, turned away and only got the joke when I saw him smiling.
Priceless!!
I do realize that circ sets of anything minus the keys is "same old, same old" to a dealer.
<< <i>BillJones, even problem-free, better circulated examples of the key dates?
I do realize that circ sets of anything minus the keys is "same old, same old" to a dealer. >>
No, "key dates" have been the exception. They have increased in value. Sadly the "widgets" end up not doing much unless they are pushed up by bullion values or part of the very popular set, like Morgan dollars.
It's always a learning experience, and ongoing.
in nice condition should be moving up soon.
Camelot
<< <i>Understood on the widgets. For me I enjoy collecting them as part of the set but spend pretty much not a lot at all per coin - to the point where I realize, as Bowers says, a common coin is a common coin and will always be a common coin - but hopefully it matters not much, as I've little invested in those, relative to other coins of mine.
It's always a learning experience, and ongoing. >>
With my coins, it is my heirs who have to worry about what they are worth down the line. And, even if they don't want them, I hope they realize they are worth more than most any of the hundred other things I could have spent my throw away money on.
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much better financially than circulated coins. Perhaps much of this is caused primarily
by the tendency for collectors to be more finicky as they become more advanced.
Thanks for the observations and ideas, Keets.
one day I would like to see the view from the other side of the table...
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
this is a viewpoint which would seem to contradict the overwhelming opinion at the forum, shared by you, that investing in coins isn't necessarily a good thing. while i always try to break even when selling, my impression is that the majority of collectors we're talking about are just assembling sets with no care of what they may be worth some day; they seem to be pure collectors. there is, however, another class of circulated set collectors.
two individuals come to mind from the two shows. one guy showed up at the Stuebenville show looking for Mercury Dimes. he told me he needed about 25 for his set, a nice XF/AU group he'd been working on for a few months. he spent about an hour at our table looking through the Merc binder, walked the floor, returned and looked for another 15-20 minutes. after he had what he wanted he showed me the coins he bought that day and explained he only needed about 3 more. every coin he showed me looked alike, high XF's, and he said the rest of the set at home was the same. he turned down a 1921 we showed him because he said it didn't have the "look" of the others and he was correct. now that's dedication!!!
another guy from the Indiana show yesterday dug through the 50% off bins for at least two hours and walked away with about 10 SLQ's which all looked the same. he first went through and picked stuff out and then re-inspected what he had, rejecting a couple. the ones he left with were VF/XF. strangely, he looked through the higher grade coins we offered and rejected them like the Merc guy. he evidentally had a "look" he wanted and was disciplined enough to wait while enjoying the hunt.
i doubt either guy cared a whole lot about how much they'll get for those sets in 10 years, though they might care about what the set looks like and the enjoyment of assembling it.
I paid my “tuition” and learned a valuable lesson from those collections. In the mean time I purchased a type set of U.S. gold coins that eventually graded from MS-63 to MS-65 when they were slabbed and made out handsomely on them. Ditto for all of the nice coins I collected (VF for the early type coins, Mint State for the later ones.)
One thing is for sure, I've kept a careful record of what I've paid for each - and it'll be a cdih before I agree to part with them at one-third of my purchase price. Before that happens I simply keep them all, or, sell them one at a time on ebay, properly described and photographed. Fortunately I'm into the 1877 for about half of what they seem to retail for nowadays, so there's something.
<< <i> one guy showed up at the Stuebenville show looking for Mercury Dimes. he told me he needed about 25 for his set, a nice XF/AU group he'd been working on for a few months. he spent about an hour at our table looking through the Merc binder, walked the floor, returned and looked for another 15-20 minutes. after he had what he wanted he showed me the coins he bought that day and explained he only needed about 3 more >>
Blue collar collecting. As Mr. Jones ponts out, very little upside. On the other hand, the except for the 16-d and 42/1's the set probably won't cost much more than a few evenings at the bowling alley.
CG
YES!!!! In fact lately, even NGC is starting to get a little of the same disrespect. To me it says a lot of these guys have no confidence in their own ability to grade.
But on the bright side for a collector like me, you can get some great buys in ANACS holders. That Barber quarter that Russ was gracious enough to image for me LANGUISHED in the case it was in for almost the entire MOON show last fall here in MN, and I think it was fairly well received here by the board folks. And simply because it was in an ANACS holder. I got a geat deal on it because it was in the wrong plastic.
<< <i> To me it says a lot of these guys have no confidence in their own ability to grade.
>>
Probably more like its not worth the cost and aggrevation. First, it costs money to cross a coin,which can eat up the profit margin. Who is going to pay for that, the dealer or the collector trying to sell the coin to the dealer? If the dealer nets the regrade fee out of the price he offer, the collector/seller gets miffed and walks away mad.
Second, what if the dealer does not agree with the grade on the holder? Again, if he tells the collector/seller, I see that as a 64 not a 65 and offers 64 money, the collector/seller gets miffed and walks away mad.
CG
<< <i>
<< <i> To me it says a lot of these guys have no confidence in their own ability to grade.
>>
Probably more like its not worth the cost and aggrevation. First, it costs money to cross a coin,which can eat up the profit margin. Who is going to pay for that, the dealer or the collector trying to sell the coin to the dealer? If the dealer nets the regrade fee out of the price he offer, the collector/seller gets miffed and walks away mad.
Second, what if the dealer does not agree with the grade on the holder? Again, if he tells the collector/seller, I see that as a 64 not a 65 and offers 64 money, the collector/seller gets miffed and walks away mad.
CG >>
I understand and agree with what you are saying. But a lot of these guys AREN'T EVEN LOOKING AT THE COIN. PERIOD. They see the ANACS slab, and start shaking their heads.
I don't mind if a dealer is honest and says they don't agree with the grade. But they need to at least look at the coin first!
<< <i>I don't mind if a dealer is honest and says they don't agree with the grade. But they need to at least look at the coin first! >>
Hmmm... The way I wrote that doesn't sound right. Half of the dealers will say they don't agree with the grade anyway. I'll just stick with the fact I'm getting a lot of frowns as soon as they seen the ANACS slab come out of the pocket, and many of them give the coins no more than a cursory glance.
CG
<< <i>... when I asked why he didn't have any Shield Nickels, he said "I don't bring that kind of stuff to the smaller shows" but if I was at Baltimore he'd have some. >>
As a confirmed Shield Nickel Nut, I'll verify that I hear the same thing far too often!
Great show report.
Howard
My Shield Nickel Website
http://www.shieldnickels.net
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>To me it says a lot of these guys have no confidence in their own ability to grade. >>
No sir, the shoe is on the other foot. I have little confidence in the grading ability of the TPG companies.
I've learned that you can get some pleasant and unpleasant surprises that cut both ways. I've gotten grades that were higher than I thought I should have gotten, and I've been lowballed and at times unfairly gotten a body bag.
Years ago I had an 1858 Flying Eagle in my type set, which I graded MS-64. The coin has beautiful gold toning with tons of luster. I sent it to PCGS and they BB'd for AT.
On the other side I had an 1839-O half dollar that had been dipped but not damaged. It too had great luster and was an easy AU-58. I sent that one to NGC, and they BB'd it as "improper cleaning."
In defense of the services, the guys who do the work have a crummy job. They have to grade a lot of coins in a spedified period of time, or they are out on the street. That causes them to make mistakes. Still it does not help you with your cash flow and income statement when you get screwed by their mistakes. That's why it's easier and usually cheaper to buy the coin in the RIGHT slab. If you do buy a raw coin or a crossover, the price must compensate for ALL of the expenses, INCLUDING the "you got screwed on the grade" factor.