<< <i> Does a Certificate fo value signed by Shauna XXXXX (maybe gold guy's sweater girl?) mean anything legally?
I would think it would have to be signed by someone in the firm that has a certain level / fiducial interest in the company (Officer of the corporation).
Having an admin sign it seems like a calculated ploy to decieve. >>
I would think an employee would qualify as an agent for the company.
Them revising the listing by retracting the "certificate of value" was IMO a direct act of deception so as that it would be difficult to prove that it was there originally enticing an unsuspecting buyer.
Hopefully, janmartin52 saved the webpage to his computer for more proof along with and other listings that still have it in the description.
Yeah, janmartin52 got sucked in, but IMO that "certificate of value" was stated written guarantee and a MAJOR influence on the descision to buy the lot of coins.
As far as the missing old US gold coin, I would expect that some old POS gold coin will show up any day now to janmartin52. Likely, certified mail with delivery confirmation/return receipt or something along those lines to fulfill the terms of the "revised" listing.
From this thread concerning BMC, I now know why Laura/Legend BMC keeps harping about "Wannabes".
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
Why do you quote Collector's Universe Price Guide prices and deliver mostly ICG coins? PCGS is the only grading company that puts out its own Price Guide. They tend to have more prices listed in higher grades than the other price guides.
But are these coins the same quality and/or value as they would be in a PCGS holder? We think the answer is definitely "Yes." when it comes to quality. The quality of the coins in this package is fantastic and ultra strict. In terms of actual retail market value we think the answer is "No." When it comes to retail market value we think generally ICG coins are worth less than PCGS coins, and a lot less in some cases. >>
I take back what I said. Kenny is great at the Brush-Off
I now know why Laura/Legend BMC keeps harping about "Wannabes".
Partially correct. The other part of her missive is something like "know who you are dealing with", which I feel more strongly about than trying to figure who is a "wannabe" and who is not.
<< <i> I now know why Laura/Legend BMC keeps harping about "Wannabes".
Partially correct. The other part of her missive is something like "know who you are dealing with", which I feel more strongly about than trying to figure who is a "wannabe" and who is not. >>
Good Point!!
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
<< <i>BTW, how culpable do people think PCGS is in all this? By publishing a price list that is clearly out of touch with reality, they provide fodder for scams such as this. Comments? >>
I equate CU publishing the PCGS price guide to the parent who leaves a loaded gun where a child can find it. It has been the weapon of choice for dozens of eBay scammers. On mutiple occasions HRH has been questioned on this and he has not done anything about it.
<< <i>I say PCGS isnt culpable at all. They supply a price list for the coins THEY have graded. >>
WRONG! quoted from PCGS Price Guide "WHAT DO PCGS PRICES MEAN? The prices listed in the PCGS Price Guide are the average dealer asking prices for properly graded United States coins." There is no indication that these prices are for PCGS slabbed coins only.
<< <i>Well, fortunately the victim here is easily identified, and has come forward, presenting the case to the forum. A perfect situation for the Coin Posse. And we can follow it from start to finish. Many comments were made in the previous thread when the Coin Posse announced their success, that there are big fish to fry. BMC certainly qualifies, and there is no shortage of threads with complaints about their business practices. This is not an isolated case, it seems, and not the only victim. Certainly there cannot be a judgement made that this victim does not deserve the Coin Posse's help. The learning opportunity here is obvious as well. There is no downside to the Coin Posse helping this person. >>
The problem in part seems that there was no law obviously broken, perhaps not even a tort. The posse apparently does well with the elderly, where there are a number regulations or laws in some states to prevent mail and wire fraud against those not mentally competent to enter a contract. Just MHO, but maybe an attorney could get somewhere with a class action suit to discover all the BM clients. >>
I thought that was inadvertently funny. They do well with the elderly. But not with BMC. Seriously, if BMC is too big a fish for them, so be it. It just seems like a perfect storm of circumstances for the Coin Posse to do it's thing, and for us to learn about them. Open and willing victim. Facts laid bare. A repeater offender, who is unlikely to change tactics. You could almost call this a situation that precisely defines their stated goals. This situation is ready made for the Coin Posse.
It would be nice to know what criteria is used to determine who to help. And which perpetrators to go after.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Blue moon is a perfect example of some of the slimy underbelly that seems to be more and more prevalent on ebay. These guys have over 15000 feedbacks!!! They seem to get bolder and bolder with the "Mystery lots", claiming higher and higher values to each lot as they refine there techniques over time.
I would have to agree- this is a job for the coin posse. What we need here is a super hero!!
I for one am just glad to have the contents one of these mysetery lots revealed. It's like the $30K question has been answered for free.
*
Seriously though, why Blue Moon Coins is still around is beyond me, and I seriously hope that for the sake of our hobby the back of the train catches up with the front soon. (Although the girl in gray is kinda hot in a sort of "I'd fantasize about any reasonably attractive woman who was into coins" kind of way.)
At the same time, I don't know why everyone's responses have been so hostile to the purchaser. While as the orignal author if this thread points point out, it is possible that BMCs conduct adhered more or less to the letter of their auction, their words were at best definately drafted with the intent to deceive. So this guy tried to make a score... so what? That makes him greedy and therefore worthy of the misfortune he has experienced and or scorn? If so, than are we supposed to lash out now everytime someone around here makes a "You Suck!" purchase for acting on the exact same instinct?
The fact is this guy is not complaining because he spent $3K, got $3K, and is now bitter because it's not the $100K or $30K advertised - he spent $3K and got about $300. Does it seem right to anyone that at the end of the day, this guy is out $2,700.00 while BMCs walks away ready to make the same play on the next guy who comes along?
<< <i>I equate CU publishing the PCGS price guide to the parent who leaves a loaded gun where a child can find it. It has been the weapon of choice for dozens of eBay scammers. On mutiple occasions HRH has been questioned on this and he has not done anything about it. >>
IT is always someone elses fault!! I don't know what everyone else thinks about this, but I'm sure tired of hearing this excuse. It is the fast food industries fault that america is overwieght, it is the car and beer companies fault when a drunk driver kills someone, it is the manufacturing firearm companies fault when someone gets shoot. What ever happened to personal responsibility? The PCGS Price Guide is just that, a Guide, not a bible.
Blaming the PCGS Price Giude is just smoke and mirrors, and has nothing to do with the compaint that started this thread. My nine year old knows that "If a deal sounds to good to be true, it probable is", where is the personal responsibility of the buyer? I've read though both of these thread, and it sounds like the buyer put a lowball "buy it now" in for sh*ts and giggles and then Blue Moon started to real the fishing line in. I am not defending Blue Moon, from the war stories I've read here there is no way I would even think about dealing with them. The best thing the buyer could do in this case, in my humble opinion, is trying to return the coins for a refund.
Bashing the price guide is no solution to this problem, it is just a Guide, heck the guide list the value of a 2004-P in MS67 Kennedy for only $70 (I would love to find one for under $125). I can remember back in the 60's before the gray sheets, the Red, Blue, and then Black Books but again these were just guides.
Everyone needs to remember when you try to scam a scammer, you might get slimed.
Since no one has mentioned it lately, and because I believe that it is important to stay focused on the important things in life, let's not forget about that rack.
Why do you quote Collector's Universe Price Guide prices and deliver mostly ICG coins? PCGS is the only grading company that puts out its own Price Guide. They tend to have more prices listed in higher grades than the other price guides.
But are these coins the same quality and/or value as they would be in a PCGS holder? We think the answer is definitely "Yes." when it comes to quality. The quality of the coins in this package is fantastic and ultra strict. In terms of actual retail market value we think the answer is "No." When it comes to retail market value we think generally ICG coins are worth less than PCGS coins, and a lot less in some cases. >>
I take back what I said. Kenny is great at the Brush-Off >>
What BS. He should write a book titled "How to sell $600 worth of crap coins for $3,000"
BMC are a bunch of criminals - end of story. I actually made a few "best offers" to them - some of their ICG MS67 cents. I think they wanted $1,500 for a few. I offered $5 each for them (fair market value). They refused.
I can't believe they bought some common old cent rolls for probably $1 each and parlayed that into tens of thousands of dollars of profit.
Some of you may remember this, but I seem to recall that in the early BMC ebay listings with the pic of the guy reading the book, the book was upside down.
Reminds me of when Nelson Rockefeller had a heart attack and died while "giving dictation" to his personal secretary. To avoid embarassment to the family, his aides dressed him and sat him in a chair with the Wall Street Journal in his hands. Trouble was, his slippers were on the wrong feet, the newspaper was upside down, and his aides couldn't figure out how to deflate his "manly helper" (think pre-viagra).
I've never seen an ebay listing from BMC that I would get any where near.
Mike
Coppernicus
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
<< <i>I have to agree with Pharmer. I see little difference between the boiler room operations they do go after, and the tactics of Blue Moon.
Russ, NCNE >>
I didn't realize that was the nature of their previous targets. This current situation seems more pertinent to the hobby of coin collecting. It's all there for them should they decide to help this person.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Comments
<< <i> Does a Certificate fo value signed by Shauna XXXXX (maybe gold guy's sweater girl?) mean anything legally?
I would think it would have to be signed by someone in the firm that has a certain level / fiducial interest in the company (Officer of the corporation).
Having an admin sign it seems like a calculated ploy to decieve. >>
I would think an employee would qualify as an agent for the company.
Them revising the listing by retracting the "certificate of value" was IMO a direct act of deception so as that it would be difficult to prove that it was there originally enticing an unsuspecting buyer.
Hopefully, janmartin52 saved the webpage to his computer for more proof along with and other listings that still have it in the description.
Yeah, janmartin52 got sucked in, but IMO that "certificate of value" was stated written guarantee and a MAJOR influence on the descision to buy the lot of coins.
As far as the missing old US gold coin, I would expect that some old POS gold coin will show up any day now to janmartin52.
Likely, certified mail with delivery confirmation/return receipt or something along those lines to fulfill the terms of the "revised" listing.
From this thread concerning BMC, I now know why Laura/Legend BMC keeps harping about "Wannabes".
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
-----
Proud Owner of
2 –DAMMIT BOY!!! ® Awards
<< <i>
Interesting FAQ on investment lots on Blue Moon's Site
BMC investment lot FAQ
Why do you quote Collector's Universe Price Guide prices and deliver mostly ICG coins?
PCGS is the only grading company that puts out its own Price Guide. They tend to have more prices listed in higher grades than the other price guides.
But are these coins the same quality and/or value as they would be in a PCGS holder?
We think the answer is definitely "Yes." when it comes to quality. The quality of the coins in this package is fantastic and ultra strict. In terms of actual retail market value we think the answer is "No." When it comes to retail market value we think generally ICG coins are worth less than PCGS coins, and a lot less in some cases. >>
I take back what I said. Kenny is great at the Brush-Off
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
Partially correct. The other part of her missive is something like "know who you are dealing with", which I feel more strongly about than trying to figure who is a "wannabe" and who is not.
<< <i> I now know why Laura/Legend BMC keeps harping about "Wannabes".
Partially correct. The other part of her missive is something like "know who you are dealing with", which I feel more strongly about than trying to figure who is a "wannabe" and who is not. >>
Good Point!!
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
-----
Proud Owner of
2 –DAMMIT BOY!!! ® Awards
TorinoCobra71
<< <i>BTW, how culpable do people think PCGS is in all this? By publishing a price list that is clearly out of touch with reality, they provide fodder for scams such as this. Comments? >>
I equate CU publishing the PCGS price guide to the parent who leaves a loaded gun where a child can find it. It has been the weapon of choice for dozens of eBay scammers. On mutiple occasions HRH has been questioned on this and he has not done anything about it.
<< <i>I say PCGS isnt culpable at all. They supply a price list for the coins THEY have graded. >>
WRONG! quoted from PCGS Price Guide "WHAT DO PCGS PRICES MEAN? The prices listed in the PCGS Price Guide are the average dealer asking prices for properly graded United States coins." There is no indication that these prices are for PCGS slabbed coins only.
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, fortunately the victim here is easily identified, and has come forward, presenting the case to the forum. A perfect situation for the Coin Posse. And we can follow it from start to finish. Many comments were made in the previous thread when the Coin Posse announced their success, that there are big fish to fry. BMC certainly qualifies, and there is no shortage of threads with complaints about their business practices. This is not an isolated case, it seems, and not the only victim. Certainly there cannot be a judgement made that this victim does not deserve the Coin Posse's help. The learning opportunity here is obvious as well. There is no downside to the Coin Posse helping this person. >>
The problem in part seems that there was no law obviously broken, perhaps not even a tort. The posse apparently does well with the elderly, where there are a number regulations or laws in some states to prevent mail and wire fraud against those not mentally competent to enter a contract. Just MHO, but maybe an attorney could get somewhere with a class action suit to discover all the BM clients. >>
It would be nice to know what criteria is used to determine who to help. And which perpetrators to go after.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Russ, NCNE
I would have to agree- this is a job for the coin posse. What we need here is a super hero!!
Thanks again
*
Seriously though, why Blue Moon Coins is still around is beyond me, and I seriously hope that for the sake of our hobby the back of the train catches up with the front soon. (Although the girl in gray is kinda hot in a sort of "I'd fantasize about any reasonably attractive woman who was into coins" kind of way.)
At the same time, I don't know why everyone's responses have been so hostile to the purchaser. While as the orignal author if this thread points point out, it is possible that BMCs conduct adhered more or less to the letter of their auction, their words were at best definately drafted with the intent to deceive. So this guy tried to make a score... so what? That makes him greedy and therefore worthy of the misfortune he has experienced and or scorn? If so, than are we supposed to lash out now everytime someone around here makes a "You Suck!" purchase for acting on the exact same instinct?
The fact is this guy is not complaining because he spent $3K, got $3K, and is now bitter because it's not the $100K or $30K advertised - he spent $3K and got about $300. Does it seem right to anyone that at the end of the day, this guy is out $2,700.00 while BMCs walks away ready to make the same play on the next guy who comes along?
>>>My Collection
<< <i>I equate CU publishing the PCGS price guide to the parent who leaves a loaded gun where a child can find it. It has been the weapon of choice for dozens of eBay scammers. On mutiple occasions HRH has been questioned on this and he has not done anything about it. >>
IT is always someone elses fault!! I don't know what everyone else thinks about this, but I'm sure tired of hearing this excuse. It is the fast food industries fault that america is overwieght, it is the car and beer companies fault when a drunk driver kills someone, it is the manufacturing firearm companies fault when someone gets shoot. What ever happened to personal responsibility? The PCGS Price Guide is just that, a Guide, not a bible.
Blaming the PCGS Price Giude is just smoke and mirrors, and has nothing to do with the compaint that started this thread. My nine year old knows that "If a deal sounds to good to be true, it probable is", where is the personal responsibility of the buyer? I've read though both of these thread, and it sounds like the buyer put a lowball "buy it now" in for sh*ts and giggles and then Blue Moon started to real the fishing line in. I am not defending Blue Moon, from the war stories I've read here there is no way I would even think about dealing with them. The best thing the buyer could do in this case, in my humble opinion, is trying to return the coins for a refund.
Bashing the price guide is no solution to this problem, it is just a Guide, heck the guide list the value of a 2004-P in MS67 Kennedy for only $70 (I would love to find one for under $125). I can remember back in the 60's before the gray sheets, the Red, Blue, and then Black Books but again these were just guides.
Everyone needs to remember when you try to scam a scammer, you might get slimed.
Tim
I can see the headline: Frustrated eBayer shoots the Moon!
<< <i>
<< <i>
Interesting FAQ on investment lots on Blue Moon's Site
BMC investment lot FAQ
Why do you quote Collector's Universe Price Guide prices and deliver mostly ICG coins?
PCGS is the only grading company that puts out its own Price Guide. They tend to have more prices listed in higher grades than the other price guides.
But are these coins the same quality and/or value as they would be in a PCGS holder?
We think the answer is definitely "Yes." when it comes to quality. The quality of the coins in this package is fantastic and ultra strict. In terms of actual retail market value we think the answer is "No." When it comes to retail market value we think generally ICG coins are worth less than PCGS coins, and a lot less in some cases. >>
I take back what I said. Kenny is great at the Brush-Off
What BS. He should write a book titled "How to sell $600 worth of crap coins for $3,000"
I can't believe they bought some common old cent rolls for probably $1 each and parlayed that into tens of thousands of dollars of profit.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Reminds me of when Nelson Rockefeller had a heart attack and died while "giving dictation" to his personal secretary. To avoid embarassment to the family, his aides dressed him and sat him in a chair with the Wall Street Journal in his hands. Trouble was, his slippers were on the wrong feet, the newspaper was upside down, and his aides couldn't figure out how to deflate his "manly helper" (think pre-viagra).
I've never seen an ebay listing from BMC that I would get any where near.
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
<< <i>I have to agree with Pharmer. I see little difference between the boiler room operations they do go after, and the tactics of Blue Moon.
Russ, NCNE >>
I didn't realize that was the nature of their previous targets. This current situation seems more pertinent to the hobby of coin collecting. It's all there for them should they decide to help this person.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."