Analysis of the latest BLUE MOON deal - the Grifter and the Rube
relayer
Posts: 10,570 ✭
I got bored and read the entire Another UNHAPPY Blue MOON (ED) Customer thread as well as the auction.
I could only find two false statements in the auction
1) This is an excellent opportunity for a long term investment.
2) There is at least one older year US gold coin
But they need to live up to their guarantee
WE MAKE THE FOLLOWING GUARANTEE: Upon arrival of the package it will be fully revealed what you have won. If you look up the prices on the Collectors Universe Price Guide and the prices have decreased more than 5%, we will replace or add to the collection to compensate for any coins that may have dropped in price.
The Collectors Universe Price Guide as of today for the coins delivered shows $95,595.50 when the auction stated the value would be $104,100.00 so Blue Moon owes the buyer $8,504.50 in "Collectors Universe Value" of coins of which one will be a US Gold Coin.
This could be achieved by BM sending buyer a PCGS 2003 G$5 Eagle MS66, an ICG 1955-D MS67 Lincoln and an ICG 1960 MS67 Large Date Lincoln.
I think this shows Kenny is a very good grifter.
But to become a great grifter, he needs to perfect the final stage - The Brush Off. This is always the most difficult, because once the mark understands the game they want to come back at the grifter.
Everything Kenny stated in his ad is true (with the two exceptions noted). The Rube made a lot of assumptions that were not represented at all. But it wouldn't work unless they did.
Representations made in the auction:
SLABBED COIN LOT COPPER SILVER GOLD VALUE=$104,100
All represented values come from the Collectors Universe Price Guide, and were gathered in February of 2006.
Today’s value is $95,595.50
If the grade of any coin in your mystery lot (non-raffle, non-surprise) is higher than the highest grade listed on the Collectors Universe Price Guide, we use the next grade down for pricing (which is usually one grade lower).
OK. There are no 2003 MS70 SAE $1, so use $40 as the value
Any non-US coins in the package are not listed on the Collector's Universe Price Guide. These are essentially free as they are not figured into the value.
OK the 2000 British Sovereign is considered free
Upon arrival of the package it will be fully revealed what you have won.
True
We guarantee that you will receive coins worth at least the value noted in the title of this auction according to the Collectors Universe Price Guide.
If you look up the prices on the Collectors Universe Price Guide and the prices have decreased more than 5%, we will replace or add to the collection to compensate for any coins that may have dropped in price.
Missing $8,504.50 in value or 8.1% of value
This is an excellent opportunity for a long term investment.
FALSE
These coins are generally high grade, usually US minted,
True – use of Weasel words “generally” and “usually”
THE ACTUAL LOT YOU ARE LOOKING AT INCLUDES SOME US SILVER DOLLARS AND HALF DOLLARS.
True as it refers to the photo, though it doesn’t state the lot you will receive is the one pictured, so true
This lot includes some high grade US silver and gold coins.
TRUE – MS70 and PR70DCAM SAE$1 and a 2000 British Sovereign
There is at least one silver older year First Strike.
True – (2) 1994, a 1995 and a 2005
There is at least one high grade US silver dollar.
True – MS70 SAE
There is at least one older year US gold coin
False – no US Gold coin included
there are some high grade silver US type in both mint state and proof,
True
and a whole bunch of red high grade copper.
True
Winner will receive at least as many coins precisely resembling the coins shown here.
True – there are 37 coins pictured and you received 41 coins. There are 3 NGC, 2 PCGS and 32 ICG slabs. You received 6 NGC, and 4 PCGS
I could only find two false statements in the auction
1) This is an excellent opportunity for a long term investment.
2) There is at least one older year US gold coin
But they need to live up to their guarantee
WE MAKE THE FOLLOWING GUARANTEE: Upon arrival of the package it will be fully revealed what you have won. If you look up the prices on the Collectors Universe Price Guide and the prices have decreased more than 5%, we will replace or add to the collection to compensate for any coins that may have dropped in price.
The Collectors Universe Price Guide as of today for the coins delivered shows $95,595.50 when the auction stated the value would be $104,100.00 so Blue Moon owes the buyer $8,504.50 in "Collectors Universe Value" of coins of which one will be a US Gold Coin.
This could be achieved by BM sending buyer a PCGS 2003 G$5 Eagle MS66, an ICG 1955-D MS67 Lincoln and an ICG 1960 MS67 Large Date Lincoln.
I think this shows Kenny is a very good grifter.
But to become a great grifter, he needs to perfect the final stage - The Brush Off. This is always the most difficult, because once the mark understands the game they want to come back at the grifter.
Everything Kenny stated in his ad is true (with the two exceptions noted). The Rube made a lot of assumptions that were not represented at all. But it wouldn't work unless they did.
Representations made in the auction:
SLABBED COIN LOT COPPER SILVER GOLD VALUE=$104,100
All represented values come from the Collectors Universe Price Guide, and were gathered in February of 2006.
Today’s value is $95,595.50
If the grade of any coin in your mystery lot (non-raffle, non-surprise) is higher than the highest grade listed on the Collectors Universe Price Guide, we use the next grade down for pricing (which is usually one grade lower).
OK. There are no 2003 MS70 SAE $1, so use $40 as the value
Any non-US coins in the package are not listed on the Collector's Universe Price Guide. These are essentially free as they are not figured into the value.
OK the 2000 British Sovereign is considered free
Upon arrival of the package it will be fully revealed what you have won.
True
We guarantee that you will receive coins worth at least the value noted in the title of this auction according to the Collectors Universe Price Guide.
If you look up the prices on the Collectors Universe Price Guide and the prices have decreased more than 5%, we will replace or add to the collection to compensate for any coins that may have dropped in price.
Missing $8,504.50 in value or 8.1% of value
This is an excellent opportunity for a long term investment.
FALSE
These coins are generally high grade, usually US minted,
True – use of Weasel words “generally” and “usually”
THE ACTUAL LOT YOU ARE LOOKING AT INCLUDES SOME US SILVER DOLLARS AND HALF DOLLARS.
True as it refers to the photo, though it doesn’t state the lot you will receive is the one pictured, so true
This lot includes some high grade US silver and gold coins.
TRUE – MS70 and PR70DCAM SAE$1 and a 2000 British Sovereign
There is at least one silver older year First Strike.
True – (2) 1994, a 1995 and a 2005
There is at least one high grade US silver dollar.
True – MS70 SAE
There is at least one older year US gold coin
False – no US Gold coin included
there are some high grade silver US type in both mint state and proof,
True
and a whole bunch of red high grade copper.
True
Winner will receive at least as many coins precisely resembling the coins shown here.
True – there are 37 coins pictured and you received 41 coins. There are 3 NGC, 2 PCGS and 32 ICG slabs. You received 6 NGC, and 4 PCGS
My posts viewed
timessince 8/1/6
0
Comments
If I was stupid enough to fall for this scam I certainly wouldn't admit it to a bunch of other collectors.
Cheers,
Bob
<< <i>Either the buyer is an idiot or he's not as experienced as he thinks...plain and simple.
If I was stupid enough to fall for this scam I certainly wouldn't admit it to a bunch of other collectors.
Cheers,
Bob >>
can't you feel the love......
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>But they need to live up to their guarantee
WE MAKE THE FOLLOWING GUARANTEE: Upon arrival of the package it will be fully revealed what you have won. If you look up the prices on the Collectors Universe Price Guide and the prices have decreased more than 5%, we will replace or add to the collection to compensate for any coins that may have dropped in price. >>
I think they compensate for this by adding the other 3 slabs not shown in the auction for any price decrease.
You're right though...the "Sting" isn't totally effective unless the victim thinks he pulled the fast one or is too dumb to know what hit him.
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
-----
Proud Owner of
2 –DAMMIT BOY!!! ® Awards
<< <i>Missing $8,504.50 in value or 8.1% of value >>
So BMC is only obligated to supply coins to bring the value up to within 5% of the value stated in auction, not the entire $8,504.50 as figured.
Otherwise, great analysis.
I appreciate those who have taken the time and made the effort to play the role of devil's advocate. It allows me to consider viewpoints that I may be overlooking and might not otherwise be prepared to rebut if/when necessary.
I will also point out that the listing states that Vilick himself had hand-selected the lot which was being offered. Why then did Vilick need an inventory list of the items I received??
no santa claus in numismatics, or on ebay for that matter
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
He actually thought that he was going to get $100,000.00 worth of coins for three large?
Terrific summary and expanation on how Blue Moon can continue to pull off the same "deal" over and over on unsuspecting buyers. I am still stunned that an experienced coin buyer/seller would fall for such.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
(the front states to see the reverse for improtant information regarding retail value determination)
Does a Certificate fo value signed by Shauna XXXXX (maybe gold guy's sweater girl?) mean anything legally?
I would think it would have to be signed by someone in the firm that has a certain level / fiducial interest in the company (Officer of the corporation).
Having an admin sign it seems like a calculated ploy to decieve.
A witty saying proves nothing- Voltaire (1694 - 1778)
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor
does the truth become error because nobody will see it. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
<< <i>Relayer,
Terrific summary and expanation on how Blue Moon can continue to pull off the same "deal" over and over on unsuspecting buyers. I am still stunned that an experienced coin buyer/seller would fall for such. >>
Yes, and this may continue, making the Coin Posse's involvement important, to possibly prevent others from potentially being victimized. You don't want to start making judgements about who deserves help, do you?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
If there are unlimited time, money, and manpower resources, everyone should be helped. If these are limited, I would first go after all the boiler room operations preying on unsuspecting elderly widows (and the like) and later worry about dealers screwing other dealers. Much later. The real problem here is that there are probably countless anonymous newbie collectors who have been burned by similar tactics, and unfortunately many do not know it. Because of the "private bidder" feature on ebay, the Coin Posse cannot identify them to help them.
<< <i>is this it? >>
Hey, that girl in the gray is attractive.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>As soon as I can, I will set up a webpage to post the original listing in its entirety, for anyone and everyone to see. As it stands, Vilick removed the hosted image of the Certificate of retail value from the host server and therefore it is no longer linked to when the page comes up. I also have a very lengthy voice mail message left by Vilick concerning the "mystery lot".
I appreciate those who have taken the time and made the effort to play the role of devil's advocate. It allows me to consider viewpoints that I may be overlooking and might not otherwise be prepared to rebut if/when necessary.
I will also point out that the listing states that Vilick himself had hand-selected the lot which was being offered. Why then did Vilick need an inventory list of the items I received?? >>
Time to move on (settle w/BMC, dispute you charge via PayPal, etc.) ---this is beginning to assume epic proportions---soon to be it's own webpage!
1) This is an excellent opportunity for a long term investment.
2) There is at least one older year US gold coin"
1) is not "false." It's quintessential puffery. No court anywhere would grant a plaintiff relief based on that statement.
2) agreed -- definitely false.
--csw
Tiger trout, Deerfield River, c. 2001.
No, they are required to bring the value up to their stated value, not just within 5%, as per this statement: "We guarantee that you will receive coins worth at least the value noted in the title of this auction according to the Collectors Universe Price Guide.
However, they would be within this statement by crediting price rises in the other coins against the ones that have declined.
Jim
<< <i>but I would assume that a dealer getting screwed by another dealer is outside their scope. >>
Dealers eat their young?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>She is, I just don't understand why she feels she needs to suck in her stomach for every picture. >>
Because she wants to be a skinny BlueMoonie. No one buys coins from fat BlueMoonies.
Jerry
I have done the same on some "make offer" listings just for fun and in hopes the seller might be desperate enough to accept the lowball offer. It surprised the hell out of me that some of the low offeres were accepted! And made me wary that what I offered on may not be what it seemed. So far I have not been burned and have gotten some truly great deals!
But if you make the offer, you of course need to be ready to follow through.
I don't understand the moderns, but am I to understand that the listed values of the coins received actually was $100k? I didn't look them up.
Ther's a ball bouncing, please try and follow it.
hi, i'm tom.
i do not doctor coins like some who post in here.
<< <i>They did not expect to get 100K worth of coins for 3 Grand. This was clearly stated in the long thread.
Ther's a ball bouncing, please try and follow it. >>
Then I put the buyer at fault right alongside the seller.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
<< <i>I did that right at the start. >>
If you look back, I did too, I just felt like reitterating it.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
<< <i>They did not expect to get 100K worth of coins for 3 Grand. This was clearly stated in the long thread.
Ther's a ball bouncing, please try and follow it. >>
This what they expected: "NO - I did not expect to receive $104,000 worth of coins for $3000. I expected the actual value of the lot to be considerably less - likely in the range of $8 to $10 thousand dollars."
Sure. That makes sense.
<< <i>They did not expect to get 100K worth of coins for 3 Grand. This was clearly stated in the long thread.
Ther's a ball bouncing, please try and follow it. >>
I'm not sure if you were replying to me, but I just read in the other thread that the value, when looked up, was about $100k. Using the grades on the slabs.
He stated that he buys to sell, so if he can't get his money (plus profit) out of a $3000 investment, that really does have a $100k book value, albeit in 2nd tier slabs (they aren't PCGS, but these aren't exactly mickey mouse slabs either), then I would really question why he buys anything at all to sell.
<< <i>in all honesty, years ago when I saw their pic of that old geezer pouring over a coin book, the little angel on my left shoulder said "stay away" and the clown with the pitchfork on the right shoulder said "sssssssssuuuuuccccckkkkers welcome"
no santa claus in numismatics, or on ebay for that matter >>
I guess that old guy finally finished that book.
Photos of the 2006 Boston Massacre
<< <i>Well, fortunately the victim here is easily identified, and has come forward, presenting the case to the forum. A perfect situation for the Coin Posse. And we can follow it from start to finish. Many comments were made in the previous thread when the Coin Posse announced their success, that there are big fish to fry. BMC certainly qualifies, and there is no shortage of threads with complaints about their business practices. This is not an isolated case, it seems, and not the only victim. Certainly there cannot be a judgement made that this victim does not deserve the Coin Posse's help. The learning opportunity here is obvious as well. There is no downside to the Coin Posse helping this person. >>
The problem in part seems that there was no law obviously broken, perhaps not even a tort. The posse apparently does well with the elderly, where there are a number regulations or laws in some states to prevent mail and wire fraud against those not mentally competent to enter a contract. Just MHO, but maybe an attorney could get somewhere with a class action suit to discover all the BM clients.
<< <i>I think what happened is that janmartin made the offer with no expectation that it would be accepted. Then was surprised when it was. >>
Surprised AND suddenly suspicious and nervous.
She needs to just suck it up. She made the offer, she didn't have to.
Some days you're the kitty and some days you're the litter box.
<< <i>Some days you're the kitty and some days you're the litter box. >>
First time I heard this one, I like it!!
<< <i>Posse schmosse...let this nit solve his own problem. As an alleged experienced collector, he did just about the dumbest thing you could do.
He actually thought that he was going to get $100,000.00 worth of coins for three large?
Bob, in your zeal to laugh at someone else, you must not be reading what he has posted. He stated that he never imagined it would be $100k. Though, that was in the ad.
He posted he expected around $8k-$10k. So, taking that at retail value, it isn't out of the ballpark to have a real value around $3000.
Go look at the CU price guide....how many items can you find really out of the ballpark?
There's always the "buyer beware" but BMC preys on people......too bad that so many on this site want to castigate someone as well.
Why not save the insults and meanspiritedness for the trolls and not the people who try to get a deal or try to purchase stuff in the hobby?
The buyer on this isn't trying to screw anyone and at least is warning people and giving his entire experience. Hopefully, it will help others....maybe if earlier people had done the same, then more people would be spared. But it is hard for people to come out and tell their story like this when you have people who just want to jump on them.
I just think it is poor taste to be roasting this newcomer like what is going on. I haven't seen 1 thing (maybe I missed it, and if I did, just show me where it is) where the buyer has asked for any help or anything from anyone on this site. Instead, as I mentioned, I see him relaying what has happened and what he is trying to do to correct it.
Some of you people must really hate life, others, or go around kicking puppies.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
My World Coin Type Set
She screwed up, time to move on.
I'm not defending the buyer. I think they're an f-n IDIOT for even doing business with Blue Moon.
edit - for spelling
hi, i'm tom.
i do not doctor coins like some who post in here.
<< <i>
<< <i>Posse schmosse...let this nit solve his own problem. As an alleged experienced collector, he did just about the dumbest thing you could do.
He actually thought that he was going to get $100,000.00 worth of coins for three large?
Bob, in your zeal to laugh at someone else, you must not be reading what he has posted. He stated that he never imagined it would be $100k. Though, that was in the ad.
He posted he expected around $8k-$10k. So, taking that at retail value, it isn't out of the ballpark to have a real value around $3000.
Go look at the CU price guide....how many items can you find really out of the ballpark?
There's always the "buyer beware" but BMC preys on people......too bad that so many on this site want to castigate someone as well.
Why not save the insults and meanspiritedness for the trolls and not the people who try to get a deal or try to purchase stuff in the hobby?
The buyer on this isn't trying to screw anyone and at least is warning people and giving his entire experience. Hopefully, it will help others....maybe if earlier people had done the same, then more people would be spared. But it is hard for people to come out and tell their story like this when you have people who just want to jump on them.
I just think it is poor taste to be roasting this newcomer like what is going on. I haven't seen 1 thing (maybe I missed it, and if I did, just show me where it is) where the buyer has asked for any help or anything from anyone on this site. Instead, as I mentioned, I see him relaying what has happened and what he is trying to do to correct it.
Some of you people must really hate life, others, or go around kicking puppies.
Totally agreed! Not sure why there's so much antagonistic remarks toward the buyer. I guess nobody here has ever been ripped of before.
BTW, how culpable do people think PCGS is in all this? By publishing a price list that is clearly out of touch with reality, they provide fodder for scams such as this. Comments?
<< <i>BTW, how culpable do people think PCGS is in all this? By publishing a price list that is clearly out of touch with reality, they provide fodder for scams such as this. Comments? >>
I say PCGS isnt culpable at all. They supply a price list for the coins THEY have graded. The price guide doesn't list every grade of every coin. I think that is done more for a benefit to those that use their service, however it is being severely manipulated and abused. This is where the integrity of the seller comes into play. I've never been a fan of ANYONE using the PCGS price guide as a 'certainty of value' of any coin, including ones graded by PCGS. This is where knowledge and integrity of buyers comes into play. You have to try and educate yourself the best you can in order to prevent taking the shaft and becoming a human lollipop.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Anyone buying coins that are obviously not in PCGS slabs, should not expect the same grading standards to apply.
What would the sum of the prices be if everything recieved was in a PCGS slab- it was somwhere in the 90,000 range.
He is only owed a Gold coin, and more crappy ICG overgraded cents that would bring the PCGS equivilent price up to $104000.
He should try to get a refund instead.
Interesting FAQ on investment lots on Blue Moon's Site
BMC investment lot FAQ
Why do you quote Collector's Universe Price Guide prices and deliver mostly ICG coins?
PCGS is the only grading company that puts out its own Price Guide. They tend to have more prices listed in higher grades than the other price guides.
But are these coins the same quality and/or value as they would be in a PCGS holder?
We think the answer is definitely "Yes." when it comes to quality. The quality of the coins in this package is fantastic and ultra strict. In terms of actual retail market value we think the answer is "No." When it comes to retail market value we think generally ICG coins are worth less than PCGS coins, and a lot less in some cases.
A witty saying proves nothing- Voltaire (1694 - 1778)
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor
does the truth become error because nobody will see it. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
I use the guide as a guide only !
Rarely will i pay guide for a PCGS coin unless i really want it or it does not show up everyday.
My rule of thumb
PCGS coins, 20-40 % of guide
NGC coins, 10-30 % of guide
Anacs coins,10-30 % of guide
ICG coins,5-10 % of guide
everything else,forget it !
And at this,i really need/want the coin