What's the deal with the 1920 Saint?

RYK

Is there really one coin (graded PCGS MS-65) that is clearly $60,000 better than the 412 graded PCGS MS-64? Okay, there are probably a lot of "grading events" at the MS-64 level, but clearly there are quite a few MS-64 coins. If we took all the PCGS MS-64's and the single PCGS MS-65 and cracked them all out, could the professional grader pick out the MS-65 from the group? How about the Saint specialist? Average dealer? Average collector?

For those of you who are concerned about pop top moderns that are due to for a crash in value, this might be an example of a classic condition rarity that could befall a similar fate if a bag of these from an early strike is found in Europe.

jpkinla

There is unlikely any major hoard of 1920 Saints around. I bought the ONLY 1920 gem in the MORSE sale and was prepared to pay $100k for it. As you know, it turned out to be the Eliasberg specimen and I have turned down $100k already. Every one of the NGC examples have been tried and tried and in reality no of them come close to the coin. There was an NGC coin in ther Heritage auction and it didn't sell....Maybe it isn't worth that much more but I have owned my share of MS64's......I bought the coin becuase I wanted the highest quality possible and because no other major Saint collection had a gem of that date (i.E. Price, Norweb, etc....)....People will say I am nuts but even if another gem is eventually made, mine will have turned out to be a great investment and an addition to my set.....

RYK

John,

But here's my question: isn't it somewhat artificial that PCGS has only made one coin an MS-65? Is it so clearly better than all 400 or so of the MS-64s? Would I be able to tell the difference? Would a serious Saint collector or dealer really be able to tell the difference?

roadrunner

The answer to those questions would of course have to be YES to substantiate the price difference. And it just may be that there is a difference in the 400+ vs. the 1. However it would be an interesting test to try that out. But in reality, since PGCS has annointed that coin as the only 65, and the only one that can get MS65 Registry points, it is therefore the only coin that counts. If in fact PCGS should go away some day, the coin would have to stand on its own merits apart from those other 400 by a significant margin.

Before PCGS such a step change from MS64 to MS65 probably didn't exist as grading & value were much more on a continuum. People also didn't know how many other raw 65's were out there. No doubt some of those 64's traded for existing MS 65 money before PCGS came about.

roadrunner

tradedollarnut

Is there really one coin (graded PCGS MS-65) that is clearly $60,000 better than the 412 graded PCGS MS-64?

A few flaws here: first, it's guaranteed that there are raw beautiful gems in old time collection[s] probably better than the coin in question. Second, there's a high probability that a few of the MS64's are close to 65 quality ... however, you'd have to cut into that $60k difference to get them. Pricing is not necessarily in discrete chunks like grading is...

RYK

Note to DH:

Does the fact that jpkinla has turned down over $100,000 for the sole PCGS MS-65 1920 Saint mean that its value in the PCGS price guide should be at least $100,000? I certainly think so.

fc

interesting post. i have to admit being on your side RYK.
i bet one of those MS64s is just as nice, TO ME, than the one MS65.

coltgus

This thread brings up a gripe I have with TPG.
To get a 1920 Saint graded MS65 it would have to be a knockout.
I strongly believe the TPGs grade much tougher in cases like this than they do for common dates.

clevegreg

Of course they grade these tougher, wouldn't you if you had potential liabilty for a re-grade that went wrong?

coltgus

<< <i>Of course they grade these tougher, wouldn't you if you had potential liabilty for a re-grade that went wrong? >>



We guarantee that the coins will not be downgraded.

That is what PCGS says in their description of the regrade service so where, I ask, is the liability ?

coinkat

RYK:

The 1920 Saint is a moderately better date in 63 and from there it shoots up as does the 1923. Some Philly gold has traditionally been ignored and you found a decent example.

Condition rarity gold is very tough... and at the risk of being the party pooper again, I truly believe that you have to look at what else one could buy with the difference in the spread between grades. It really is not about keeping up with the Jones, its about buying quality at a reasonable price. I wouldn't mind having a 64 1920 Saint...

jpkinla

Well, it is an interesting topic for sure....It is a fact that they have held their ground on the 1920 as a date.....However, if they ever made another MS65 it would not detract from my coin the slightest bit.....Yes, I believe my 1920 is nicer than all of the MS64's I have owned/seen and I have paid enough in grading fees trying to make a 1920 Saint in MS65....At least enough grading fees to buy 1 1920 Saint in MS64!

I have seen a few of the NGC 65's and they don't quite make it.....The Browning coin is nice but it is not super nice and I can see it in a PCGS MS64 holder as opposed to the NGC 65 holder....

Sure there are 400+ MS64's......So what???? It has been years and there haven't been any more......

TDN, yes we are all aware of the RAW coins out there....In fact a 1920-s in MS66 came out of the blue at Long Beach....Can you believe it? But interestingly the pop went from 1 to 2 and the coin sold for $525k which is 4% more than when there was only one coin back in November at the Morse sale.....

As I said, I HAD to buy the coin as I do not ever see myself buying a 1927-d but all the major collections of Saints only had a MS64 of the 1920 date.....My set will have a gem!

saintguru

Three years ago there were less than 200 MS64's. Clearly there have been hundreds of attempts to regrade and i would guess that number to be closer to 250.

When DH wrote A Mercenaries Guide To Cois he said that there were virtually no nkown gems...a few years later the Eliasbeg collection sold and who bought the GEM he had?



David Hall!


There will be another 65 one day; it has to happen....but frankly I've seen dozens of nice ones that just are not gems. Mine is as close as they come, but I can't see it as a 65...ever!

jpkinla

SG,

Either way the coin is obviously a great rarity in gem grade.....Sure there may be another one out there, maybe even a few.....But bring them on.....

I was very happy to buy the coin.....

There are a few dates like this in the Saint series for sure but this one is the most notorious as there are a lot of 64's......I agree with SG that the numbers are probably inflated quite a bit however....

Coinhusker1

Jplinka, you need a bigger pic!!

jpkinla

That's my baby! Thanks Coinhusker.....Note that I got PCGS to add on the "Eliasberg" name to the holder....That was very cool! David Hall knew the coin immediately!

ReadyFireAim

Very strange date.
All the 1920-S MS64's I've seen look MS65.
Most of 1920-P MS64's look MS63 or lower
I saw one MS64+ that looked MS64 along w/ TWO MS63 that I thought were solid MS64
I'm leaving a hole until I can figure it out.

jdimmick

Several years ago, I had a set of 20 libs and saints walk in the shop from NC coastal area , its been several years now maybe approaching 5 since I saw them. They were raw and in 5 part Capitol holder boards. I don't remember the 1920, but many of the coins in this set were absolutely stunning. But I would be willing to be the 20 was darn nice, the 1921 in this set if ever graded would be a 65 or 66. It was complete except for the 54-o, 56-o, & 27-d. there were several coins in the set that were 100-250k each . all raw!! neatest collection I had ever seen walk in. Guy wasn't interested in selling at the time, just wanted to know what kind of value they held. Apparently , he inherited it from his grandfather, along with a ton of money and property, so I don't think money was an issue.

Gazes

@jpkinla said:
There is unlikely any major hoard of 1920 Saints around. I bought the ONLY 1920 gem in the MORSE sale and was prepared to pay $100k for it. As you know, it turned out to be the Eliasberg specimen and I have turned down $100k already. Every one of the NGC examples have been tried and tried and in reality no of them come close to the coin. There was an NGC coin in ther Heritage auction and it didn't sell....Maybe it isn't worth that much more but I have owned my share of MS64's......I bought the coin becuase I wanted the highest quality possible and because no other major Saint collection had a gem of that date (i.E. Price, Norweb, etc....)....People will say I am nuts but even if another gem is eventually made, mine will have turned out to be a great investment and an addition to my set.....

interesting to read this old thread. 12 years ago many people questioned whether the 65 was worth the 86k paid for it, whether there were many more that would be made MS-65, etc. 12 years later we know that only one more had been made 65 by PCGS and that example went for $188,000 earlier this year.

Connecticoin

I can see how the second 65 went for $188k - it is clearly nicer than the then lone 65 which was the subject of this thread. I can see why Laura passed on the coin then - it looks pretty chewed up compared to the $188k coin.

logger7

It looks like there are two MS65 Saints on their Coinfacts page: http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/CoinImages.aspx?s=9170

RogerB

Estimated Survival: 12,600
MS-65-66 = 8 none better BGI (before grade inflation)

Kkathyl

Need a Picture of some to see.

CaptHenway

Interesting zombie thread.

I always thought that the 1920-P Saints looked lousy in general.

BillJones

@CaptHenway said:
Interesting zombie thread.

I always thought that the 1920-P Saints looked lousy in general.

Yes, even the MS-65 on the "Coin Facts" site is nothing to write home about. Maybe it was combination of the three year suspension of double eagle coinage because of the First World War combined with a flurry of use for these coins brought on the suspension. Perhaps Philadelphia Mint lost its touch in making these coins, and most of them were clanged around in coin bags as they were moved from one bank to another.

ricko

We wait patiently for the first MS66...... Cheers, RickO

logger7

@Kkathyl said:
Need a Picture of some to see.

Just click on the link: http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/CoinImages.aspx?s=9170

CaptHenway

@BillJones said:

@CaptHenway said:
Interesting zombie thread.

I always thought that the 1920-P Saints looked lousy in general.

Yes, even the MS-65 on the "Coin Facts" site is nothing to write home about. Maybe it was combination of the three year suspension of double eagle coinage because of the First World War combined with a flurry of use for these coins brought on the suspension. Perhaps Philadelphia Mint lost its touch in making these coins, and most of them were clanged around in coin bags as they were moved from one bank to another.

Well, the pre-WW1 Saints were'nt all that great either. We are just not used to seeing them in quantity in BU.

Somewhere in the early 1920's the Mint's upped the quality of the Saints and immediately buried them in the vaults. In the early 1930's some of these got sent to Europe and escaped the great meltdown.

Some 1923-D's come very nice, and a lot of those come from Chicago. See my story about the Great Chicago Hoard in Dave Bowers' hoard book.

TwoSides2aCoin

I miss you guys, and the good ol' days. Happy Days are here again !

Kkathyl

@logger7 I did do that but too many to judge, I do think that many in the 64 seem to contain light scratches and dullness. I do see many that are probable high or a slight above 64 in market terms but more just makes what your trying for worth less. I would take any of them

ReadyFireAim

@logger7 said:
It looks like there are two MS65 Saints on their Coinfacts page: http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/CoinImages.aspx?s=9170

Thanks for the link...That helped a lot.
There are some MS64's I would be happy to own but none have come up for sale recently.
I guess I'll be waiting

ReadyFireAim

@ReadyFireAim said:

http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/CoinImages.aspx?s=9170

UPDATE >>> GOT ONE!
A nice 1920 MS64 CAC that I sent in for a + (fingers crossed)
I'll post a True View when I get one.

My main reason for this new post is an observation.
Click on show previous quotes above.
Click the link and then on the 1st MS65 that pops up.
Then use the right arrow and scroll through quickly.
Look at lady liberty's RIGHT middle finger (holding the torch)

Looks like one engraver put a signet ring on her finger.

Kove

@logger7 said:
It looks like there are two MS65 Saints on their Coinfacts page: http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/CoinImages.aspx?s=9170

A look at that Coinfacts link shows the exact same 1920 Saint with a large hit on a reverse ray getting resubmitted 17 times and getting a 64+ every time.

ReadyFireAim

@Kove said:
A look at that Coinfacts link shows the exact same 1920 Saint with a large hit on a reverse ray getting resubmitted 17 times and getting a 64+ every time.

Yep...That's the one