Is Bettis a HoFer? I say no...
Axtell
Posts: 10,037 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
With his retirement tonight, it's time to begin the evaluation of Bettis' career.
He had 2 seasons with 10+ TDs, and just barely: 11 and 13.
Averaged less than 4 yards per carry over his career.
Never led the league in rushing, was second once, third twice, and 2 9th place finishes.
Played a long time, never dominated...good story he won a super bowl ring in his hometown, but no way is this guy a HoFer in my book.
Shaun Alexander already has more TDs (95 to 91) than Bettis.
He had 2 seasons with 10+ TDs, and just barely: 11 and 13.
Averaged less than 4 yards per carry over his career.
Never led the league in rushing, was second once, third twice, and 2 9th place finishes.
Played a long time, never dominated...good story he won a super bowl ring in his hometown, but no way is this guy a HoFer in my book.
Shaun Alexander already has more TDs (95 to 91) than Bettis.
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* 91 career rushing TDs
* 8 1,000 yard seasons
* 61 100 yard games
* Rushing TD in 5 straight playoff games
* Super bowl ring
It's not even a debate. He'll be a first ballot hall of famer. Let's see if Alexander can rush for 13,000 yards. Guys burn out fast in this league. Many who have 1800 yard seasons never even reach 10,000 yards. As for <4 yards per carry, that's more a function of his role late in his career as a short yardage power back. He was over 4.0 untill his role changed after the 2001 season.
Ok, just checking. He had one dominant year. So with that mindset, we should let every one year wonder who sticks around for 13, 14 years in the hall too.
I want the hall of fame to be full of powerful, awe inspiring players. Bettis never was that, he was a rusher who did his job, but didn't dominate.
Using your criteria, the football hall of fame would consist of about 5 running backs, 5 quarter backs and 5 receivers and not much else.
By the way, how many running backs out there had one dominant season, out of thirteen seasons? In fact, how many backs have lasted for 13 seasons? Who isn't in the hall that you think is more deserving than the Bus? You should really study a player's career and not just look at the stat sheet before you dismiss his accomplishments. I've watched the Bus play every game for the past six seasons. Most of his runs came late in the game when the Steelers were leading (the main reason Cowher is 100-1-1 when leading by 10+ points). Those runs came against defenses that knew he was getting the carry and stacked the box with 8 or 9.
<< <i>You must not have watched many Steeler games. Ask Brian Urlacher if Bettis is a dominant player. The old man ran over him like the Sunday morning paper this year. The Bus was a scoring machine at the goal line and was money in short yardage situations. He had many dominating seasons. 1,429 yards as a rookie. 1,431 his first season in Pittsburgh. 1,665 the following year. 1,072 in only 11 games in 2000 before he went down with an injury. And yes, longevity does play a big factor in making the hall. Just ask about every lineman who ever made the hall, Warren Moon, Jim Kelly, etc, etc. None of those players had particularly dominating seasons. >>
But there's your flawed comparison. He didn't play on the line, he wasn't a quarterback. He was a running back. And running backs are supposed to rack up TDs. He had 2 seasons over 10 TDs, and just barely.
<< <i>
Using your criteria, the football hall of fame would consist of about 5 running backs, 5 quarter backs and 5 receivers and not much else.
>>
I don't think there's any real fan of football (or baseball for that matter) who would disagree that there are far too many marginal (and out and out bums) in both halls...what's wrong with making them exclusive? The hall is for the BEST of the BEST. Jerome is not in that class.
<< <i>
By the way, how many running backs out there had one dominant season, out of thirteen seasons? In fact, how many backs have lasted for 13 seasons? Who isn't in the hall that you think is more deserving than the Bus? You should really study a player's career and not just look at the stat sheet before you dismiss his accomplishments. I've watched the Bus play every game for the past six seasons. Most of his runs came late in the game when the Steelers were leading (the main reason Cowher is 100-1-1 when leading by 10+ points). Those runs came against defenses that knew he was getting the carry and stacked the box with 8 or 9. >>
It doesn't matter who I think or don't think should be in the hall. This discussion is about Bettis. I wouldn't say Bettis has been dominant in any facet of his game in his entire career.
In those years where he was piling up 1000+ yards, he sure as hell wasn't scoring. In those 8 1000+ yard seasons, he TOTALLED 50 TDs, for a measly average of under 7 a season! How is this dominant?
I think that my objectivity and not watching him every game is a better way to evaluate a player. You watch a player too much, you get emotionally attached, and your decision making goes right down the toliet.
The answer to your question is "Yes"
If you would have asked, "Should Bettis be a HoFer?" then I would agree that the Hall of Fame should be reserved for outstanding players, not including excellent players. Bettis in my opinion is an excellent player, not an outstanding player. Unfortunately the Hall of Fames are getting filled with too many "excellent" players, because it's all about the money these days. The more players in...the more fans from various teams and cities get interested. Oh well....
Put it this way, if John Riggins gets in (long career, 11,000+ yards, low per carry average), Bettis gets in.
<< <i>13,000 + yards gets him in easily. Also, career longevity is a more significant accomplishment in the NFL and merits recognition as well. >>
I totally agree with this. Longevity along is a major accomplishment in the NFL. Terrell Davis was a lock HOF and look what happened.
BTW, the Steelers haters are out in full force today. TV, Internet, everywhere. I've waited almost my whole life for this day and I wasn't expecting it to be like this. I almost wish the Steelers would have beaten a different team in the Superbowl, a team without fans like this.
<< <i>Not only is he a HOFer, but a first ballot one at that ... >>
Yes, first ballot, no question.
<< <i>
I don't think there's any real fan of football (or baseball for that matter) who would disagree that there are far too many marginal (and out and out bums) in both halls...what's wrong with making them exclusive? The hall is for the BEST of the BEST. Jerome is not in that class.
I think that my objectivity and not watching him every game is a better way to evaluate a player. You watch a player too much, you get emotionally attached, and your decision making goes right down the toliet. >>
Fair enough. I can understand the feeling that there are too many players in the hall. I don't think I'm a total homer. In fact, I don't think Lynn Swann should be in the hall because his regular season career was not that spectacular. However, I don't put Bettis in the category as a marginal hall of famer. 13,000 yards cannot be ignored. I think 10,000 yards is like 500 HRs or 300 wins in baseball. You exceed that threshold and you are a hall of famer, whether you do it in 7 seasons or 10+.
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
As for all the Steeler haters out there - I am seeing the exact opposite. Lots, and lots, of bandwagon Steelers fans today. Amazing!
<< <i>As for all the Steeler haters out there - I am seeing the exact opposite. Lots, and lots, of bandwagon Steelers fans today. Amazing! >>
However, the morning boys on WEEI (Boston) think the Seahawks got hosed by the zebras. It will be interesting to hear what Mike and the Mad Dog (NY) think.
<< <i>Your kidding,right?????????? >>
I don't think he is, Dakota. That's the sad part.
Curtis Martin is #4 right ahead of him. Is Martin a HOFer?
By the time Bettis is eligible he may be 11th on the all time list. Marshall Faulk, Corey Dillon, Edgerrin James, Tiki Barber, Shaun Alexander, and Ladanian Tomlinson are all within striking distance of knocking him down a notch in the next five years.
All depends on what rushing looks like to the writers in five years and how well they remember/favor Bettis.
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
<< <i>13,000 + yards gets him in easily. Also, career longevity is a more significant accomplishment in the NFL and merits recognition as well.
Put it this way, if John Riggins gets in (long career, 11,000+ yards, low per carry average), Bettis gets in. >>
Riggins was the reason those Redskin teams were successful and won the super bowl. Bettis was not.
Bettis' last solid season was 6 years ago. On one hand, we criticize those players who hang on too long (Favre), but then say Bettis was admirable for doing the same thing.
The days of having just the type of players i described initially are lonnnng gone
Dave
Curtis Martin is #4 right ahead of him. Is Martin a HOFer?
By the time Bettis is eligible he may be 11th on the all time list. Marshall Faulk, Corey Dillon, Edgerrin James, Tiki Barber, Shaun Alexander, and Ladanian Tomlinson are all within striking distance of knocking him down a notch in the next five years.
All depends on what rushing looks like to the writers in five years and how well they remember/favor Bettis.>>
Best point yet! He could end up being the Art Monk of Running Backs!
Scott
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This is just Axtells way of showing us how he seems to know so much more than everyone else.
<< <i>Fifth all-time rusher alone gets him in. Is he the fifth best running back of all-time? Of course not, but he's been good enough to get in the Hall of Fame, and no doubt he will. >>
I agree. Fifth all time rushing yardage gets him there with no doubt. He may be one of the last to play past 6-8 years, finding a niche with a team that used him as needed in the last few years. He filled in when others were injured and added to his total.
He must have done something to get 8 thousand yard seasons.
I see him as the last of a breed that played till he dropped, called it a career and hobbled off the field.
Nice icon Steve. That one's a clasic that I found last year. I may upload some more vintage Philly logos this month.
<< <i>Using your criteria, the football hall of fame would consist of about 5 running backs, 5 quarter backs and 5 receivers and not much else.
>>
Plus George Blanda. Not as a QB, just because he was there so long they had to let him in and Al Davis threatened to move the Raiders to Tokyo.
<< <i>Bettis' last solid season was 6 years ago. >>
I disagree. Last year he was a key ingredient to the team with the best record. Almost a 1000 yards and 13 td's is solid - especially when he was only the feature back half the games.
9 phi | 33 149 | 0 | 0 |
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| 16 bal | 27 117 | 13 | 0 |
<< <i>He is a lock for the HOF.
This is just Axtells way of showing us how he seems to know so much more than everyone else. >>
Thanks for making no choice, either way. I think my points are valid, and discussing Bettis in a historical context now that he's retired.
<< <i>Coinhusker - please post what their (Mike & The Mad Dog) thoughts were, if you heard some of the show today. Since I got Sirius radio in my car and house, I never listen to AM/FM anymore, but I always liked that show. >>
Mike and the Mad Dog were both in agreement today that Jerome Bettis has been a "compiler" of stats and that they don't think of him as a Hall of Famer. Although they both also think that he will be inducted. The biggest debate on that show today was how in the heck Warren Moon got voted in to the NFL Hall of Fame.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
Bettis' last solid season was 6 years ago. On one hand, we criticize those players who hang on too long (Favre), but then say Bettis was admirable for doing the same thing. >>
Sorry, another example of how you know nothing about Bettis other than reading his stat sheet. He came in last year for an injured Staley and gained 100 yards in all of his 8 starts. If not for him, the Steelers would have had to rely on Verron Haynes to finish off their season. No way they finish 15-1.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Bettis' last solid season was 6 years ago. On one hand, we criticize those players who hang on too long (Favre), but then say Bettis was admirable for doing the same thing. >>
Sorry, another example of how you know nothing about Bettis other than reading his stat sheet. He came in last year for an injured Staley and gained 100 yards in all of his 8 starts. If not for him, the Steelers would have had to rely on Verron Haynes to finish off their season. No way they finish 15-1. >>
And you honestly, truly think he would have been able to hang on for 6 years playing as an every down back, getting 25 carries a game?
Please.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Bettis' last solid season was 6 years ago. On one hand, we criticize those players who hang on too long (Favre), but then say Bettis was admirable for doing the same thing. >>
Sorry, another example of how you know nothing about Bettis other than reading his stat sheet. He came in last year for an injured Staley and gained 100 yards in all of his 8 starts. If not for him, the Steelers would have had to rely on Verron Haynes to finish off their season. No way they finish 15-1. >>
And you honestly, truly think he would have been able to hang on for 6 years playing as an every down back, getting 25 carries a game?
Please. >>
Six seasons ago he carried the rock 355 times. That's not an every down back??? He averaged over 200 carries a season over his last five years. Hardly a walk in the park.
loth
<< <i>
Six seasons ago he carried the rock 355 times. That's not an every down back??? He averaged over 200 carries a season over his last five years. Hardly a walk in the park. >>
That was SIX YEARS AGO.
200 carries a year is only 12 a game, not 25. He's not an every down back, and is a stat compiler. Explain the lack of dominant seasons? Explain the lack of scoring more than 13 TDs ever? Explain that he was top 5 in rushing just 3 times out of 13 years? He has (multiple) years of just THREE TDs over an entire season.
He's a mediocre back, who had some good 1000 yard season, who stuck around with a team willing to keep him and use him 12 times a game.
Now Willie Parker gets a chance to shine and score some TDs, instead of the bus stealing them all.
<< <i>Jumping into the fray a bit late here but I will throw in my 2 cents....I would be ready to argue with anybody that He is a HOF'er based on the commitment he has made to being a fan favorite and piling up 13000 + yards but the point of "what the rushing leaders look like in five years" actually makes me think a bit more about this. 13000 yards in five years might not be a big deal, the way the NFL tackles I think 2000 yards a season might be the norm down the road, and an old 800-1000 yard a season guy might not be looked at in such high regard anymore. >>
Which is exactly where I was coming from. He has the numbers right now that look very Hall worthy, and I do believe he will get in based on how the writers view him. I am not convinced he is a first ballot HOFer though. I could see him taking a Stallworth or Harry Carson ride to the Hall. There are a lot of backs that can knock him out of fifth, and Curtis Martin who is #4 right now has a shot at becoming third all time. Does anyone here put Martin in Emmitt Smith and Walter Payton's class??? Numbers are nice and all, but look at some others who had the numbers--
fsjeter mentioned Art Monk, wasn't Monk the all time reception leader at one point in his career (or close to it?) And I also believe Monk had the consecutive games w/a reception mark as well...Monk is fifth all time in receptions and ninth all time in receiving yards.
Dave Krieg is 11th all time in passing yards and ninth in TDs. 10th in attempts and 10th in completions. And he was ranked higher when his career ended.
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
I just don't see him as the among the best RB's ever. He's been durable in being able to move to 5th all-time on the rushing list. But their's nothing about him that just jumps out at me thaty would cause me to see him among the greats.
No disrespect to Bettis, but I would have to vote no.
<< <i>
I just don't see him as the among the best RB's ever. He's been durable in being able to move to 5th all-time on the rushing list. But their's nothing about him that just jumps out at me thaty would cause me to see him among the greats.
No disrespect to Bettis, but I would have to vote no. >>
That's exactly my point...he's not the 5th best RB...I wouldn't even put him top 50 all time. NOT a hall of famer in my book.
Actually, I am also a Bucs fan.
You're not bad for a tree-hugger.
<< <i>
<< <i>
I just don't see him as the among the best RB's ever. He's been durable in being able to move to 5th all-time on the rushing list. But their's nothing about him that just jumps out at me thaty would cause me to see him among the greats.
No disrespect to Bettis, but I would have to vote no. >>
That's exactly my point...he's not the 5th best RB...I wouldn't even put him top 50 all time. NOT a hall of famer in my book. >>
Top 50 is kind of stretching it, don't you think?
My answer is definately not......good player, very nice career, but not a hall of famer.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>
Top 50 is kind of stretching it, don't you think? >>
Yeah you're right, I wouldn't put him in the top HUNDRED running backs.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Top 50 is kind of stretching it, don't you think? >>
Yeah you're right, I wouldn't put him in the top HUNDRED running backs. >>
Now you're getting completely rediculous and have lost any shred of credibility you may have had left. I'm not even going to bother looking it up but #100 on the all time rushing list is probably Archie Griffin.
Rushing yards compiled doesn't = the best running backs. PERIOD.
And if you couldn't tell, I was being facetious, but I wouldn't put him top 50...nope, sorry.
Mediocrity has no place in the hall of fame, either.
<< <i>OMG, I am agreeing with Axtell!
Actually, I am also a Bucs fan.
You're not bad for a tree-hugger.
You aint too bad for a Gator fan hehe
<< <i>And if you couldn't tell, I was being facetious, but I wouldn't put him top 50...nope, sorry. >>
What is your top 50?