<< <i>c) keeping this blight of a coin in the hobby (it remains on the pop report with claims of legitimacy) >>
Part of the problem is that this analogy breaks down when applied to this coin. This particular "piece of crap" is not something that most Jefferson collectors would turn up their noses at. It is a pretty spectacular coin at least in terms of the strike on the steps. The primary fault is sim- ply that it is not percieved to be of nearly the quality indicated by the holder. Even the compari- son with the '63 Lincoln, while apt, is not good since it has no spots or hazing.
The hobby has survived other overgraded coins and even many thousands of coins with light rubs that are encapsulated as uncs with little fanfare. It will probably survive a lone '60-D 5c which may or may not have full steps.
<< <i>When we REALLY stop and think about the reality of a common nickel being worth this much, it truly is insane! >>
Maybe it is a crazy world but the simple fact is that this nickel was considered a steal at this price and almost none of the other 60,000,000 surviving '60-D nickels has such a price. One could make the argument that bust dollars are really very common so why is the 1804 bringing millions.
Ultimately the price of the '60-D is no more or less insane than the price of the 1804.
Unless, of course, you consider the potential loss.
<< <i>When we REALLY stop and think about the reality of a common nickel being worth this much, it truly is insane! >>
The reaction from non-collectors is even funnier, when I showed my co-workers a PCGS MS67 1942-S quarter in an OGH and told them how much I had paid for it they thought I was crazy. You should have seen their jaws drop when I told them I sold it for 4X what I had into it.
So, which set of circumstances was in fact better for the hobby?
Was chest-pounding the motivation to choose the second option?
PCGS has survived other embarrassments to their name, why not this one! But this one has a different story. While their are thousands of registry collectors out there sitting on their hands building their registry grids with full intentions of only profiting, enter the serious collector who knows the difference between quality and junk coins. Not only was this 1960-D giving many Jefferson collectors a slap in the face but it would throw another thousand junk coins into the faces of collectors who don't know better, there by, shooting the hobby in the foot. A man steps up to the plate and sends this message to all those collectors collecting the slab and not the coin! In a true sense, he just told them all, "to go to hell! JHS stopped it cold in it's tracks! Perhaps JHF didn't take it in the shorts after all! But I can imagine those who lost out on this one............DID!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
From about 1974 through 1977 I believe I was the most active dealer in Full Step Jeferson Nickels. I had Coin World ads, a monthly price list, and six figures a year in full step Jefferson Nickel sales. David Hall, who was already a big important dealer, was very nice to this teenager and to this day he still occasionally calls me "Full Stepper".
Along the way I learned a thing or two about the rarity of full step nickels. Back then I was buying 5 step 1954-S nickels for $250 and selling them for $350. I also sold "complete" sets from 1938-1958 for $3750. The reason I stopped the sets at 1958 was because 1960-D was impossible. I had never seen a five step 1960-D Jefferson, and I've seen about as many full steppers as anyone. I sold out my inventory when I turned 16 in 1977 (for a low five figure number) - I used the $6,000 down payment I received to buy a new Mustang for cash. I figure that inventory would be worth about $1 million today.
I had a great time with full step nickels and it's great fun to see I was maybe just a little ahead of my time- at least as full step nickels go.
See you at the registry luncheon at FUN.
=== Gregory J. Rohan President HERITAGE GALLERIES & AUCTIONEERS 3500 Maple Avenue, 17th floor Dallas, Texas 75219-3941 Phone: 214-528-3500 / 800-872-6467/ Private fax: 214-528-2596 Email to: Greg@HeritageGalleries.com Assistant: Yolanda Cunningham, Direct dial: 214-252-4218 Email: YolandaC@HeritageGalleries.com
Join www.HeritageCoins.com. Please also visit www.HeritageGalleries.com. Over 200,000 members! ===
Greg Rohan President HERITAGE AUCTIONS 3500 Maple Avenue Dallas, Texas 75219-3941 Phone: 214-528-3500 / Private fax: 214-409-1596 Email to: Greg@HA.com
With laser technology today I can guarantee anyone I can make tens of 60 D full step nickels and fool most of you.I may even fool both grading services. Engraving can be done to create gradeable full head Standing Liberty quarters.Its already been done. Full step Jefferson nickel collectors should realize certain dates just don't come with full steps.
<< <i>With laser technology today I can guarantee anyone I can make tens of 60 D full step nickels and fool most of you.I may even fool both grading services. >>
<< <i>With laser technology today I can guarantee anyone I can make tens of 60 D full step nickels and fool most of you.I may even fool both grading services. >>
<in a cough> B-U-L-L S-H-I-T >>
You would think someone would have thought of it before Stewart!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Leo - The Standing Liberty quarters that had engraved heads were coins like a 27 s in ms 65 full head.That is a $50,000 coin.If one is willing to pay that kind of money for a 60 D Jefferson nickel then I can assure you the coin will appear on the market.
I can't say that I doubt what you claim, is there past documentation? If a full head or steps are lacking the neccesary detail for a designaation, wouldn't there be a need to add metal to raise or laser in the missing details? If not, either way I would think this kind of alteration would be detectable. Likely not for a condition rarity but certainly for a classic rarity is my guess!
I would like to see more info on what your suggesting at this point.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>Brian is evidently immature and VERY naive >>
Ah, Stewie, you're referring about a guy who has searched thousands upon thousands of sets, and made the ONLY FS 1968-D ever graded at PCGS. He knows what he's talking about.
<< <i>Brian is evidently immature and VERY naive >>
Nickel, as is obvious, is a different metal than silver. The melting point being so much higher would lead me to believe that it would splash and generally cause such a mess that it would be obvious to even a marginally trained eye. Couple that with the reason many jeffs are not full, and a line, cut by a laser, would seem so out of place. There are two parts to a full step, the indentation and the raised step. A laser would cure the indentation but I don't know how you would add metal; The places where Jeffs are weak are either just too flat to put a line in (showing planchet flaws/lack of luster),have some die characteristic that would make a line look wierd, or lack both the line and the mound (if you will). Jeff step (indentations) are not simply lines but have contour that I do not believe you could duplicate with a laser. Silver would be easier, maybe, but here I would think that the differance in color would be a dead giveaway
Al: The grading service took over the investigation after the determination that the coin was "doctored" in one form or another. I can see if I can get more information - an update - on the situation. I am just glad the coin, at all times, was in the holder while both you and I were buying, selling and trying to upgrade it!
For those of you out there wondering what Al's comment was all about - I auctioned off a "PQ" Merc for Al in a major auction last year after trying to upgrade it (in grade) - the FB was already on the holder (luckily as a regrade and not a crack out). The coin went for strong, strong money - won by a well know professional upgrader. That "winning bidder" cracked the coin before resubmitting it for the higher grade and it came back from the same grading service BB'ed as doctored as to bands.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Thank you for your picture, RBin Tex: That's another poster child for the problems the third party graders sometimes have. And PCGS handled that gracefully and fairly.
"The hobby has survived other overgraded coins and even many thousands of coins with light rubs that are encapsulated as uncs with little fanfare. It will probably survive a lone '60-D 5c which may or may not have full steps." Right on the money, Cladking. Thank you.
"When we REALLY stop and think about the reality of a common nickel being worth this much, it truly is insane!" Thank you, too, Boom. That's exactly what my wife says.
Hello Numismaniac. When you put it to them like that -- a 400% roi -- they stop talking about carting you off to the looney bin.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun!
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
"While there are thousands of registry collectors out there sitting on their hands building their registry grids with full intentions of only profiting, enter the serious collector who knows the difference between quality and junk coins.
"Not only was this 1960-D giving many Jefferson collectors a slap in the face but it would throw another thousand junk coins into the faces of collectors who don't know better, there by, shooting the hobby in the foot.
"A man steps up to the plate and ... stops it cold in its tracks."
Thank you! Leo the Lyon! I did this for myself, but people like you, who understand what it's all about, make this a very rich experience for me. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Just Having Fun!
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
Congratulations Heritage Greg: To do that volume as a kid is truly amazing. And $600,000 back then is more than a million in today's dollars. And you couldn't have picked a nicer field -- the full steppers.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun!
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
Hi Stewart Blay. I believe you. I see no reason why a skilled sculptor shouldn't be able to beat the full step game with laser technology. Take a 4.75 stepper and turn it into a 5.00 shouldn't be much harder than adding an ear hole on to a Standing Liberty Quarter, eh?
Dear Saint Guru: What makes you think Stewart isn't already doing it? He has to pay for those fantabulous Lincoln cents somehow, doesn't he?
And thank you grip for a real life example.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
And Ellewood: Yes, the nickel either is winging its way to David Hall & Co., or perhaps it's already there. I'll keep you posted. But for now ... nitey nite.
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
Leo /Al: That coin was not returned from the grading company and, again, I was informed the matter was going to be strongly investigated to try to "trace back" to not only the original submittor of the coin, but possibly the chain of custody well before that. In following up on the matter today, I am confident the coin was NOT lasered, but was doctored in an manner where the bands were actually carved to completeness and the coin was then slightly toned to better cover up the doctoring work. When haze was removed from the coin following the public sale of the slabbed coin and the crack out of the coin by the winning bidder (a professional "crack out" guy), the doctored bands stood out for all to see. I hope the matter continues to get fully investigated, as it would appear to me that the chain of title/custody wouldn't be all that difficult to trace back.
But, as you mentioned Leo - this is probably better discussed in a separate thread later. Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>So JHF....is the nickel on it's way to David Hall for review??????? I would love to hear how this one ends and how long it takes!!!! >>
I would be very surprised if PCGS ever takes the FS designation off the holder. Even though it apparently does not have full steps, taking FS off would imply that PCGS made an obvious mistake, and they don't admit mistakes very often. It's different than the 63 proof cent, which changed after being holdered. This nickel looks exactly the same now as it did then, and for PCGS to say the steps aren't full now is tantamount to PCGS saying their standards have changed, which they'll also never admit. They're between a rock and a hard place on this one.
"for PCGS to say the steps aren't full now is tantamount to PCGS saying their standards have changed, which they'll also never admit"
Centmaster: I do not follow that logic. You do not need a changed standard to recognize that you may have made a single mistake on a designation of a coin. PCGS (IMHO) is in a league of its own with respect to Jeff nickels. Their coins (and only their coins for the most part) command the big $$ in the marketplace. Same situation for Jeff nickels as Lincoln cents basically. They see thousands and thousands of Jeffs a year - determining (1) Jeff nickel may have been mis-designated shows nothing more than, IMHO, - that (1) Jeff nickels out of thousands and thousands of coins last year may have been mis-designated - nothing to do with changed standards. In fact, if they do determine the coin is NOT FS - that would potentially also confirm that the standard HAS NOT CHANGED (in other words just the opposite of your suggestion).
But, let me preface everything I have said above with the following comment -the 1960(d) nickel is a CLOSE CALL in that 4 3/4 steps (not suggesting that PCGS won't also determine the coin to be a true FS piece after their examination) is clearly close to the 5 steps needed at PCGS to get the designation. We are not dealing with a 3 or 4 stepper here - we are dealing with a coin that EVERY expert I know who has examined the coin (including myself) agrees is no less than 4 1/2 - 4 3/4 steps on a bad day. If PCGS determines the coin is not FS, I would not see that as an embarassment to PCGS whatsover - it would, in fact, be the very reason PCGS enjoys the position it enjoys in the Jeff nickel marketplace at this time - AND WOULD SHOW THAT THEY STAND BY THEIR ULTRA HIGH QUALITY PRODUCT.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I would be very surprised if PCGS ever takes the FS designation off the holder. Even though it apparently does not have full steps, taking FS off would imply that PCGS made an obvious mistake, and they don't admit mistakes very often. It's different than the 63 proof cent, which changed after being holdered. This nickel looks exactly the same now as it did then, and for PCGS to say the steps aren't full now is tantamount to PCGS saying their standards have changed, which they'll also never admit. They're between a rock and a hard place on this one.
What a great point. It will be interesting to see how it pans out!
Hi Brian - I just wanted to break your b-lls and keep you on your toes.FYI I don't do this kind of work
However the mettalurgical content of a 1960 d Jefferson nickel is mostly copper.It is composed of 75% copper and 25% nickel.It wouldn't need to be heated up to be melted.It could be welded on the coin.Splashing would not happen as it would be a surgical procedure.The chances are it would take more than one try and many coins would be submitted.Putting steps on a Jefferson nickel would not render as much suspicion as say an 1804 dollar.Putting toning an a nickel has recently been done more often than almost every other metal
JHF - Most of my Lincoln cents probably cost me less than your Jefferson nickels.
<< <i>"for PCGS to say the steps aren't full now is tantamount to PCGS saying their standards have changed, which they'll also never admit"
Centmaster: I do not follow that logic. You do not need a changed standard to recognize that you may have made a single mistake on a designation of a coin. Wondercoin >>
Recognizing their mistake among their peers is one thing, but admitting it to the public is something quite different. It wouldn't be admitting a mistake along the lines of a simple typo or a PR68 SBA dollar slabbed as a 69, for instance. As this was the first (and still only) FS nickel of its date, then we have to assume the decision was not made lightly or carelessly, rather that there had to be some serious discussion in the grading room on the coin before slabbing it FS. In order to come clean, they would have to admit that they all put their heads together, came to a decision as graders and still made a bad one. Tough pill to swallow.
I happened upon this very basic understanding just last night while perusing through my collection.
Can anyone see what I'm referring to concerning the SEGS label? What the label suggests, contradicts what full step collectors have understood for years concerning the quarter step counting of what qualifies as a full step! I do not know if this type of labeling FS nickels is a spin-off of Darryl Crane & company or Larry Briggs!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
"As this was the first (and still only) FS nickel of its date, then we have to assume the decision was not made lightly or carelessly, rather that there had to be some serious discussion in the grading room on the coin before slabbing it FS."
CM: I don't think so - the coin was a lower grade Jeff from the 1960's and I seriously doubt the graders gave it much thought at all when they slabbed it. While I have great respect for the PCGS grading staff - let's face it - most full time dealers don't even have any idea what a 60(d) FS Jeff is worth. I seriously doubt graders who pay little attention to modern coins prices would know more than the average full time coin dealer. If polled, I suspect two years ago, roughly 1/2 the dealers on the floor might assign a value to a MS64FS 60(d) nickel of a few hundred dollars at best. Frankly, with everything that has happened - even today close to half might still think that!! I doubt very seriously that the graders a couple years ago thought for a second that they would be slabbing a $20,000+ coin in assigning this coin a 64FS grade. More likely, they thought it was merely another modern widget.
And, of course, this discussion begs the question of whether PCGS would even consider value as a factor in electing to slab an MS64FS Jeff nickel - but, I appreciate where you are coming from. Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
More likely, they thought it was merely another modern widget.
This does raise some serious thought! When the graders were notified that they would be grading FS nickels, were they given some books, a seminar, instructions on how to grade full steps. Could they have paid Rich and Sue Sisti to train the graders or perhaps rented their video! Bill Fivas could have shed some light on the matter. Heck, did they consult Bern Nagengast, the guy who wrote the book on Jefferson nickels? I do remember when PCGS asked me to give them a list of the most popular Jefferson nickel varieties a couple of years ago.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
"This does raise some serious thought! When the graders were notified that they would be grading FS nickels, were they given some books, a seminar, instructions on how to grade full steps. Could they have paid Rich and Sue Sisti to train the graders or perhaps rented their video! Bill Fivas could have shed some light on the matter. Heck, did they consult Bern Nagengast, the guy who wrote the book on Jefferson nickels? I do remember when PCGS asked me to give them a list of the most popular Jefferson nickel varieties a couple of years ago."
Leo: They had Rick Montgomery on staff and David Hall to oversee the standard they had chosen. And, Miles for good measure. That near (60) years of experience between them is about all they needed to get things going correctly in this area IMHO.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
"wondercoin are you implying that if the graders had realized at the time what a rarity this was that they would have graded it differently?"
IrishMike: Actually, that is what I thought CentMaster suggested back to me in his response, unless I misread the comment.
Wondercoin.
P.S. I have read on these boards from time to time how great classic rarities appear to often get the "bump" in grade. Yet, it is also suggested from time to time around here that great modern rarities (yeah - I know that is an oxymoron to many around here) get graded tighter especially if the graders know what they are looking at?? I certainly don't buy the latter. And, I hope it is never the case with the former either.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>I happened upon this very basic understanding just last night while perusing through my collection.
Can anyone see what I'm referring to concerning the SEGS label? What the label suggests, contradicts what full step collectors have understood for years concerning the quarter step counting of what qualifies as a full step! I do not know if this type of labeling FS nickels is a spin-off of Darryl Crane & company or Larry Briggs!
Leo >>
I think SEGS labelling is borne of an agreement with the FSNC, SEGS also holdered the original Schlag model proofs for the FSNC.
I'm with you, I don't know how anyone can call a coin Full Steps and then describe the steps as having "bridges." I do recall from my days collecting these that nicks and cuts on the steps used to be okay if properly described. SEGS has it over PCGS in that they won't automatically disqualify a FS coin for having hits on the steps, but to me "bridges" should not be allowed by anyone.
BTW, if I were evaluating the steps on the coin you pictured, I would call it "5-4-5-5, 4-3/4 steps, nicks". There is a bridge under the second column between steps four and five that prevents it from Full Steps.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>I happened upon this very basic understanding just last night while perusing through my collection.
Can anyone see what I'm referring to concerning the SEGS label? What the label suggests, contradicts what full step collectors have understood for years concerning the quarter step counting of what qualifies as a full step! I do not know if this type of labeling FS nickels is a spin-off of Darryl Crane & company or Larry Briggs!
Leo >>
I think SEGS labelling is borne of an agreement with the FSNC, SEGS also holdered the original Schlag model proofs for the FSNC.
I'm with you, I don't know how anyone can call a coin Full Steps and then describe the steps as having "bridges." I do recall from my days collecting these that nicks and cuts on the steps used to be okay if properly described. SEGS has it over PCGS in that they won't automatically disqualify a FS coin for having hits on the steps, but to me "bridges" should not be allowed by anyone.
BTW, if I were evaluating the steps on the coin you pictured, I would call it "5-4-5-5, 4-3/4 steps, nicks". There is a bridge under the second column between steps four and five that prevents it from Full Steps.
Sean Reynolds >>
This is exactly my point! If everyone could just stick to the basics! Do you think my coin is worth $10,000? Not hardly since most registry collectors are building their collections on the opinions of PCGS! They can't acquire a coin for it's own merits. They see a coin that's of much better quality than what they have but they're frightened by the financial picture if the coin doesn't pan out with a TGS. lol More coins for me!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Gosh, Leo the Lyon, if I'd gotten that SEGS 1960-D as a 5 full stepper, I'd send it flying back to the dealer. Let's see: besides the merger in two places there's also ...
-- a solid zone crossing the two bottom steps and into the third step, between the first and second pillars
-- A nick near to the right of the second pillar that clearly breaks through 1.5 steps and ...
-- another ding to the far right, on the 4th and partially the 3rd steps.
I'm disappointed. In the past, I've had a few Jefferson's graded by them and and handful or two of the US Philippines, and I'd actually been pleased by their grading. But not this one. Again, this points to the huge difficulty in uncovering a true 1960-D full stepper. Maybe the ANACS MS65 will do it.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
"JHF - Most of my Lincoln cents probably cost me less than your Jefferson nickels."
Dear Stewart:
Not impossible, but unlikely. I got the overwhelming bulk of my Jefferson's back in the glorious old days before the full-steppers got popular ... and prices were, by today's standards, dirt cheap. That's why I think it's unlikely. But I understand you did the same in Lincoln pennies, which is why I think it's not impossible.
But we'll never know unless we get together and powwow over coins and prices, eh? That would be fun, but this thread isn't the place or time for that.
Have a happy Chanukkah!
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
Just Having Fun - Congratulations on taking the 60D off the market. I agree - great steps for the date, but not 5 full steps.
As others have noted we all need to focus on buying the coin not the holder, grade or designation. All of the TPGs are inconsistent with their full step designation.
Even if the coin has full steps, it may have a weak strike, late die state or simply be an ugly coin. There were many coins I have passed on including 52P and 54S in full steps that were so called upgrades from a registry point perspective. Maybe some day I will find upgrades, but the thrill is in the hunt.
Again congratulations on your superb Jefferson set - probably untouchable.
Frank
(The Corso Collection) Always looking for high quality proof and full step Jeffersons - email me with details
<< <i>Gosh, Leo the Lyon, if I'd gotten that SEGS 1960-D as a 5 full stepper, I'd send it flying back to the dealer. Let's see: besides the merger in two places there's also ...
-- a solid zone crossing the two bottom steps and into the third step, between the first and second pillars
-- A nick near to the right of the second pillar that clearly breaks through 1.5 steps and ...
-- another ding to the far right, on the 4th and partially the 3rd steps.
I'm disappointed. In the past, I've had a few Jefferson's graded by them and and handful or two of the US Philippines, and I'd actually been pleased by their grading. But not this one. Again, this points to the huge difficulty in uncovering a true 1960-D full stepper. Maybe the ANACS MS65 will do it.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun >>
JHF,
The steps are really at the bottom rung of my ladder. The strike, grade and eye appeal are far more important in building a high grade collection rather than one founded on steps only. My collection can be seen in my profile. It has a long ways to go but I am proud of what I have accomplished so far.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>Gosh, Leo the Lyon, if I'd gotten that SEGS 1960-D as a 5 full stepper, I'd send it flying back to the dealer. Let's see: besides the merger in two places there's also ...
-- a solid zone crossing the two bottom steps and into the third step, between the first and second pillars
-- A nick near to the right of the second pillar that clearly breaks through 1.5 steps and ...
-- another ding to the far right, on the 4th and partially the 3rd steps.
I'm disappointed. In the past, I've had a few Jefferson's graded by them and and handful or two of the US Philippines, and I'd actually been pleased by their grading. But not this one. Again, this points to the huge difficulty in uncovering a true 1960-D full stepper. Maybe the ANACS MS65 will do it.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun >>
On another matter besides the importance of the strike, grade and eye appeal of a coin, marks of all kinds can and will appear anywhere on a coin. With that understanding about collecting coins, notwithstanding the steps, practically all coins have scattered marks, to some degree, no matter how small or naked to the eye. Nonetheless, they are there and depending on how tolerable they appear effects the overall quality of the coin. This reasoning is not basic to every date in a series as higher quality examples for most dates are more easily obtainable then the few that fall within this realm of thinking. The 1952 and the 1949 are such examples where the quality is less than the majority of the coins in a series. The 1958 is another as many of the 1950 and 1960 dates fall into this catagory. For the 1960-D coin that I have, I'm tickled to death that a few collectors had passed this coin up solely to the fact that it does not have 5 full steps. It's just like the man who couldn't see the forest for the trees!
I can live with that!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
With laser technology today I can guarantee anyone I can make tens of 60 D full step nickels and fool most of you.I may even fool both grading services. Engraving can be done to create gradeable full head Standing Liberty quarters.Its already been done. Full step Jefferson nickel collectors should realize certain dates just don't come with full steps.
StewartText
I think the same thing can be said for Lincoln Cents. With todays technology a coin can easily be turned Red with the right tools.
Dear Nickel Collector: After actually viewing the 1960D, I think it got something of a bum rap on looks. I didn't think it was "butt ugly" (as it had been described elsewhere on this thread), but actually a quite nice MS64. But, the strike and the steps for the year were exceptionally good.
And Leo the Lyon: My issue was with SEGS, not the coin. I thought the coin was a beaut and I can see why you say that you were tickled to death because other collectors passed the coin by for lack of full steps.
But I had come to rely upon SEGS' grading and descriptions, especially on the Jeff's and the US-Philippines. And I was disappointed to see them so obviously off-target in their description of your coin.
Touchdown: Your claim to be able to create a fifth step with laser technology sounds like something you know about from personal experience. Can you expand on that, please? That would be significant. It would certainly seem to make the whole issue of steps irrelevant.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
Comments
<< <i>c) keeping this blight of a coin in the hobby (it remains on the pop report with claims of legitimacy) >>
Part of the problem is that this analogy breaks down when applied to this coin. This particular
"piece of crap" is not something that most Jefferson collectors would turn up their noses at. It
is a pretty spectacular coin at least in terms of the strike on the steps. The primary fault is sim-
ply that it is not percieved to be of nearly the quality indicated by the holder. Even the compari-
son with the '63 Lincoln, while apt, is not good since it has no spots or hazing.
The hobby has survived other overgraded coins and even many thousands of coins with light rubs
that are encapsulated as uncs with little fanfare. It will probably survive a lone '60-D 5c which may
or may not have full steps.
<< <i>When we REALLY stop and think about the reality of a common nickel being worth this much, it truly is insane!
Maybe it is a crazy world but the simple fact is that this nickel was considered a steal at this price and almost none of the other 60,000,000 surviving '60-D nickels has such a price. One could make the argument that bust dollars are really very common so why is the 1804 bringing millions.
Ultimately the price of the '60-D is no more or less insane than the price of the 1804.
Unless, of course, you consider the potential loss.
<< <i>When we REALLY stop and think about the reality of a common nickel being worth this much, it truly is insane!
The reaction from non-collectors is even funnier, when I showed my co-workers a PCGS MS67
1942-S quarter in an OGH and told them how much I had paid for it they thought I was crazy.
You should have seen their jaws drop when I told them I sold it for 4X what I had into it.
U.S. Nickels Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
U.S. Dimes Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
Was chest-pounding the motivation to choose the second option?
PCGS has survived other embarrassments to their name, why not this one!
But this one has a different story. While their are thousands of registry collectors out there sitting on their hands building their registry grids with full intentions of only profiting, enter the serious collector who knows the difference between quality and junk coins. Not only was this 1960-D giving many Jefferson collectors a slap in the face but it would throw another thousand junk coins into the faces of collectors who don't know better, there by, shooting the hobby in the foot. A man steps up to the plate and sends this message to all those collectors collecting the slab and not the coin! In a true sense, he just told them all, "to go to hell! JHS stopped it cold in it's tracks! Perhaps JHF didn't take it in the shorts after all! But I can imagine those who lost out on this one............DID!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
President
HERITAGE AUCTIONS
3500 Maple Avenue
Dallas, Texas 75219-3941
Phone: 214-528-3500 / Private fax: 214-409-1596
Email to: Greg@HA.com
Along the way I learned a thing or two about the rarity of full step nickels. Back then I was buying 5 step 1954-S nickels for $250 and selling them for $350. I also sold "complete" sets from 1938-1958 for $3750. The reason I stopped the sets at 1958 was because 1960-D was impossible. I had never seen a five step 1960-D Jefferson, and I've seen about as many full steppers as anyone. I sold out my inventory when I turned 16 in 1977 (for a low five figure number) - I used the $6,000 down payment I received to buy a new Mustang for cash. I figure that inventory would be worth about $1 million today.
I had a great time with full step nickels and it's great fun to see I was maybe just a little ahead of my time- at least as full step nickels go.
See you at the registry luncheon at FUN.
===
Gregory J. Rohan
President
HERITAGE GALLERIES & AUCTIONEERS
3500 Maple Avenue, 17th floor
Dallas, Texas 75219-3941
Phone: 214-528-3500 / 800-872-6467/ Private fax: 214-528-2596
Email to: Greg@HeritageGalleries.com
Assistant: Yolanda Cunningham, Direct dial: 214-252-4218
Email: YolandaC@HeritageGalleries.com
Join www.HeritageCoins.com.
Please also visit www.HeritageGalleries.com. Over 200,000 members!
===
President
HERITAGE AUCTIONS
3500 Maple Avenue
Dallas, Texas 75219-3941
Phone: 214-528-3500 / Private fax: 214-409-1596
Email to: Greg@HA.com
Seek and ye shall find !!!!
With laser technology today I can guarantee anyone I can make tens of 60 D full step nickels and fool most of you.I may even fool both grading services.
Engraving can be done to create gradeable full head Standing Liberty quarters.Its already been done.
Full step Jefferson nickel collectors should realize certain dates just don't come with full steps.
Stewart
<< <i>With laser technology today I can guarantee anyone I can make tens of 60 D full step nickels and fool most of you.I may even fool both grading services. >>
<in a cough> B-U-L-L S-H-I-T
<< <i>
<< <i>With laser technology today I can guarantee anyone I can make tens of 60 D full step nickels and fool most of you.I may even fool both grading services. >>
<in a cough> B-U-L-L S-H-I-T >>
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Brian is evidently immature and VERY naive
Leo - The Standing Liberty quarters that had engraved heads were coins like a 27 s in ms 65 full head.That is a $50,000 coin.If one is willing to pay that kind of money for a 60 D Jefferson nickel then I can assure you the coin will appear on the market.
Stewart
I can't say that I doubt what you claim, is there past documentation? If a full head or steps are lacking the neccesary detail for a designaation, wouldn't there be a need to add metal to raise or laser in the missing details? If not, either way I would think this kind of alteration would be detectable. Likely not for a condition rarity but certainly for a classic rarity is my guess!
I would like to see more info on what your suggesting at this point.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Brian is evidently immature and VERY naive >>
Ah, Stewie, you're referring about a guy who has searched thousands upon thousands of sets, and made the ONLY FS 1968-D ever graded at PCGS. He knows what he's talking about.
Russ, NCNE
BB,for that reason.Laser.
Al
BB,for that reason.Laser.Al"
Mercury Dime. But, Al - I did not hear back whether bands had actually been lasered or were merely worked on with special tools.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Brian is evidently immature and VERY naive
>>
Nickel, as is obvious, is a different metal than silver. The melting point being so much higher would lead me to believe that it would splash and generally cause such a mess that it would be obvious to even a marginally trained eye. Couple that with the reason many jeffs are not full, and a line, cut by a laser, would seem so out of place. There are two parts to a full step, the indentation and the raised step. A laser would cure the indentation but I don't know how you would add metal; The places where Jeffs are weak are either just too flat to put a line in (showing planchet flaws/lack of luster),have some die characteristic that would make a line look wierd, or lack both the line and the mound (if you will). Jeff step (indentations) are not simply lines but have contour that I do not believe you could duplicate with a laser. Silver would be easier, maybe, but here I would think that the differance in color would be a dead giveaway
I thought it was confirmed as lasered.Will you hear back about it?It would be very interesting to know
if there are more out there.
Al
For those of you out there wondering what Al's comment was all about - I auctioned off a "PQ" Merc for Al in a major auction last year after trying to upgrade it (in grade) - the FB was already on the holder (luckily as a regrade and not a crack out). The coin went for strong, strong money - won by a well know professional upgrader. That "winning bidder" cracked the coin before resubmitting it for the higher grade and it came back from the same grading service BB'ed as doctored as to bands.
Wondercoin.
"The hobby has survived other overgraded coins and even many thousands of coins with light rubs
that are encapsulated as uncs with little fanfare. It will probably survive a lone '60-D 5c which may
or may not have full steps." Right on the money, Cladking. Thank you.
"When we REALLY stop and think about the reality of a common nickel being worth this much, it truly is insane!" Thank you, too, Boom. That's exactly what my wife says.
Hello Numismaniac. When you put it to them like that -- a 400% roi -- they stop talking about carting you off to the looney bin.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun!
"Not only was this 1960-D giving many Jefferson collectors a slap in the face but it would throw another thousand junk coins into the faces of collectors who don't know better, there by, shooting the hobby in the foot.
"A man steps up to the plate and ... stops it cold in its tracks."
Thank you! Leo the Lyon! I did this for myself, but people like you, who understand what it's all about, make this a very rich experience for me. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Just Having Fun!
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun!
Dear Saint Guru: What makes you think Stewart isn't already doing it? He has to pay for those fantabulous Lincoln cents somehow, doesn't he?
And thank you grip for a real life example.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
Just Having Fun
<< <i>"I can vouch for Stewarts claim.....I had one I sold,was cracked ,resubmitted.And came back
BB,for that reason.Laser.Al"
Mercury Dime. But, Al - I did not hear back whether bands had actually been lasered or were merely worked on with special tools.
Wondercoin >>
With pictures, this would make a very good topic! You'd think such a coin would not have been returned.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
But, as you mentioned Leo - this is probably better discussed in a separate thread later.
Wondercoin.
<< <i>So JHF....is the nickel on it's way to David Hall for review??????? I would love to hear how this one ends and how long it takes!!!! >>
I would be very surprised if PCGS ever takes the FS designation off the holder. Even though it apparently does not have full steps, taking FS off would imply that PCGS made an obvious mistake, and they don't admit mistakes very often. It's different than the 63 proof cent, which changed after being holdered. This nickel looks exactly the same now as it did then, and for PCGS to say the steps aren't full now is tantamount to PCGS saying their standards have changed, which they'll also never admit. They're between a rock and a hard place on this one.
Centmaster: I do not follow that logic. You do not need a changed standard to recognize that you may have made a single mistake on a designation of a coin. PCGS (IMHO) is in a league of its own with respect to Jeff nickels. Their coins (and only their coins for the most part) command the big $$ in the marketplace. Same situation for Jeff nickels as Lincoln cents basically. They see thousands and thousands of Jeffs a year - determining (1) Jeff nickel may have been mis-designated shows nothing more than, IMHO, - that (1) Jeff nickels out of thousands and thousands of coins last year may have been mis-designated - nothing to do with changed standards. In fact, if they do determine the coin is NOT FS - that would potentially also confirm that the standard HAS NOT CHANGED (in other words just the opposite of your suggestion).
But, let me preface everything I have said above with the following comment -the 1960(d) nickel is a CLOSE CALL in that 4 3/4 steps (not suggesting that PCGS won't also determine the coin to be a true FS piece after their examination) is clearly close to the 5 steps needed at PCGS to get the designation. We are not dealing with a 3 or 4 stepper here - we are dealing with a coin that EVERY expert I know who has examined the coin (including myself) agrees is no less than 4 1/2 - 4 3/4 steps on a bad day. If PCGS determines the coin is not FS, I would not see that as an embarassment to PCGS whatsover - it would, in fact, be the very reason PCGS enjoys the position it enjoys in the Jeff nickel marketplace at this time - AND WOULD SHOW THAT THEY STAND BY THEIR ULTRA HIGH QUALITY PRODUCT.
Wondercoin
What a great point. It will be interesting to see how it pans out!
Hi Brian - I just wanted to break your b-lls and keep you on your toes.FYI I don't do this kind of work
However the mettalurgical content of a 1960 d Jefferson nickel is mostly copper.It is composed of 75% copper and 25% nickel.It wouldn't need to be heated up to be melted.It could be welded on the coin.Splashing would not happen as it would be a surgical procedure.The chances are it would take more than one try and many coins would be submitted.Putting steps on a Jefferson nickel would not render as much suspicion as say an 1804 dollar.Putting toning an a nickel has recently been done more often than almost every other metal
JHF - Most of my Lincoln cents probably cost me less than your Jefferson nickels.
Stewart
<< <i>"for PCGS to say the steps aren't full now is tantamount to PCGS saying their standards have changed, which they'll also never admit"
Centmaster: I do not follow that logic. You do not need a changed standard to recognize that you may have made a single mistake on a designation of a coin. Wondercoin >>
Recognizing their mistake among their peers is one thing, but admitting it to the public is something quite different. It wouldn't be admitting a mistake along the lines of a simple typo or a PR68 SBA dollar slabbed as a 69, for instance. As this was the first (and still only) FS nickel of its date, then we have to assume the decision was not made lightly or carelessly, rather that there had to be some serious discussion in the grading room on the coin before slabbing it FS. In order to come clean, they would have to admit that they all put their heads together, came to a decision as graders and still made a bad one. Tough pill to swallow.
I happened upon this very basic understanding just last night while perusing through my collection.
Can anyone see what I'm referring to concerning the SEGS label? What the label suggests, contradicts what full step collectors have understood for years concerning the quarter step counting of what qualifies as a full step! I do not know if this type of labeling FS nickels is a spin-off of Darryl Crane & company or Larry Briggs!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
CM: I don't think so - the coin was a lower grade Jeff from the 1960's and I seriously doubt the graders gave it much thought at all when they slabbed it. While I have great respect for the PCGS grading staff - let's face it - most full time dealers don't even have any idea what a 60(d) FS Jeff is worth. I seriously doubt graders who pay little attention to modern coins prices would know more than the average full time coin dealer. If polled, I suspect two years ago, roughly 1/2 the dealers on the floor might assign a value to a MS64FS 60(d) nickel of a few hundred dollars at best. Frankly, with everything that has happened - even today close to half might still think that!! I doubt very seriously that the graders a couple years ago thought for a second that they would be slabbing a $20,000+ coin in assigning this coin a 64FS grade. More likely, they thought it was merely another modern widget.
And, of course, this discussion begs the question of whether PCGS would even consider value as a factor in electing to slab an MS64FS Jeff nickel - but, I appreciate where you are coming from.
Wondercoin
This does raise some serious thought! When the graders were notified that they would be grading FS nickels, were they given some books, a seminar, instructions on how to grade full steps. Could they have paid Rich and Sue Sisti to train the graders or perhaps rented their video!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Leo: They had Rick Montgomery on staff and David Hall to oversee the standard they had chosen. And, Miles for good measure. That near (60) years of experience between them is about all they needed to get things going correctly in this area IMHO.
Wondercoin
for stealth post.
IrishMike: Actually, that is what I thought CentMaster suggested back to me in his response, unless I misread the comment.
Wondercoin.
P.S. I have read on these boards from time to time how great classic rarities appear to often get the "bump" in grade. Yet, it is also suggested from time to time around here that great modern rarities (yeah - I know that is an oxymoron to many around here) get graded tighter especially if the graders know what they are looking at?? I certainly don't buy the latter. And, I hope it is never the case with the former either.
<< <i>I happened upon this very basic understanding just last night while perusing through my collection.
Can anyone see what I'm referring to concerning the SEGS label? What the label suggests, contradicts what full step collectors have understood for years concerning the quarter step counting of what qualifies as a full step! I do not know if this type of labeling FS nickels is a spin-off of Darryl Crane & company or Larry Briggs!
Leo >>
I think SEGS labelling is borne of an agreement with the FSNC, SEGS also holdered the original Schlag model proofs for the FSNC.
I'm with you, I don't know how anyone can call a coin Full Steps and then describe the steps as having "bridges." I do recall from my days collecting these that nicks and cuts on the steps used to be okay if properly described. SEGS has it over PCGS in that they won't automatically disqualify a FS coin for having hits on the steps, but to me "bridges" should not be allowed by anyone.
BTW, if I were evaluating the steps on the coin you pictured, I would call it "5-4-5-5, 4-3/4 steps, nicks". There is a bridge under the second column between steps four and five that prevents it from Full Steps.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>
<< <i>I happened upon this very basic understanding just last night while perusing through my collection.
Can anyone see what I'm referring to concerning the SEGS label? What the label suggests, contradicts what full step collectors have understood for years concerning the quarter step counting of what qualifies as a full step! I do not know if this type of labeling FS nickels is a spin-off of Darryl Crane & company or Larry Briggs!
Leo >>
I think SEGS labelling is borne of an agreement with the FSNC, SEGS also holdered the original Schlag model proofs for the FSNC.
I'm with you, I don't know how anyone can call a coin Full Steps and then describe the steps as having "bridges." I do recall from my days collecting these that nicks and cuts on the steps used to be okay if properly described. SEGS has it over PCGS in that they won't automatically disqualify a FS coin for having hits on the steps, but to me "bridges" should not be allowed by anyone.
BTW, if I were evaluating the steps on the coin you pictured, I would call it "5-4-5-5, 4-3/4 steps, nicks". There is a bridge under the second column between steps four and five that prevents it from Full Steps.
Sean Reynolds >>
This is exactly my point! If everyone could just stick to the basics! Do you think my coin is worth $10,000?
Not hardly since most registry collectors are building their collections on the opinions of PCGS! They can't acquire a coin for it's own merits. They see a coin that's of much better quality than what they have but they're frightened by the financial picture if the coin doesn't pan out with a TGS. lol More coins for me!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
-- a solid zone crossing the two bottom steps and into the third step, between the first and second pillars
-- A nick near to the right of the second pillar that clearly breaks through 1.5 steps and ...
-- another ding to the far right, on the 4th and partially the 3rd steps.
I'm disappointed. In the past, I've had a few Jefferson's graded by them and and handful or two of the US Philippines, and I'd actually been pleased by their grading. But not this one. Again, this points to the huge difficulty in uncovering a true 1960-D full stepper. Maybe the ANACS MS65 will do it.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
Dear Stewart:
Not impossible, but unlikely. I got the overwhelming bulk of my Jefferson's back in the glorious old days before the full-steppers got popular ... and prices were, by today's standards, dirt cheap. That's why I think it's unlikely. But I understand you did the same in Lincoln pennies, which is why I think it's not impossible.
But we'll never know unless we get together and powwow over coins and prices, eh? That would be fun, but this thread isn't the place or time for that.
Have a happy Chanukkah!
Just Having Fun
As others have noted we all need to focus on buying the coin not the holder, grade or designation. All of the TPGs are inconsistent with their full step designation.
Even if the coin has full steps, it may have a weak strike, late die state or simply be an ugly coin. There were many coins I have passed on including 52P and 54S in full steps that were so called upgrades from a registry point perspective. Maybe some day I will find upgrades, but the thrill is in the hunt.
Again congratulations on your superb Jefferson set - probably untouchable.
Frank
My Jefferson Full Step Variety Set (1938 - Current)
My Jefferson Proof Variety Set (1938 - Current)
<< <i>Gosh, Leo the Lyon, if I'd gotten that SEGS 1960-D as a 5 full stepper, I'd send it flying back to the dealer. Let's see: besides the merger in two places there's also ...
-- a solid zone crossing the two bottom steps and into the third step, between the first and second pillars
-- A nick near to the right of the second pillar that clearly breaks through 1.5 steps and ...
-- another ding to the far right, on the 4th and partially the 3rd steps.
I'm disappointed. In the past, I've had a few Jefferson's graded by them and and handful or two of the US Philippines, and I'd actually been pleased by their grading. But not this one. Again, this points to the huge difficulty in uncovering a true 1960-D full stepper. Maybe the ANACS MS65 will do it.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun >>
JHF,
The steps are really at the bottom rung of my ladder. The strike, grade and eye appeal are far more important in building a high grade collection rather than one founded on steps only. My collection can be seen in my profile. It has a long ways to go but I am proud of what I have accomplished so far.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Gosh, Leo the Lyon, if I'd gotten that SEGS 1960-D as a 5 full stepper, I'd send it flying back to the dealer. Let's see: besides the merger in two places there's also ...
-- a solid zone crossing the two bottom steps and into the third step, between the first and second pillars
-- A nick near to the right of the second pillar that clearly breaks through 1.5 steps and ...
-- another ding to the far right, on the 4th and partially the 3rd steps.
I'm disappointed. In the past, I've had a few Jefferson's graded by them and and handful or two of the US Philippines, and I'd actually been pleased by their grading. But not this one. Again, this points to the huge difficulty in uncovering a true 1960-D full stepper. Maybe the ANACS MS65 will do it.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun >>
On another matter besides the importance of the strike, grade and eye appeal of a coin, marks of all kinds can and will appear anywhere on a coin. With that understanding about collecting coins, notwithstanding the steps, practically all coins have scattered marks, to some degree, no matter how small or naked to the eye. Nonetheless, they are there and depending on how tolerable they appear effects the overall quality of the coin.
This reasoning is not basic to every date in a series as higher quality examples for most dates are more easily obtainable then the few that fall within this realm of thinking. The 1952 and the 1949 are such examples where the quality is less than the majority of the coins in a series. The 1958 is another as many of the 1950 and 1960 dates fall into this catagory.
For the 1960-D coin that I have, I'm tickled to death that a few collectors had passed this coin up solely to the fact that it does not have 5 full steps. It's just like the man who couldn't see the forest for the trees!
I can live with that!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Seek and ye shall find !!!!
With laser technology today I can guarantee anyone I can make tens of 60 D full step nickels and fool most of you.I may even fool both grading services.
Engraving can be done to create gradeable full head Standing Liberty quarters.Its already been done.
Full step Jefferson nickel collectors should realize certain dates just don't come with full steps.
StewartText
I think the same thing can be said for Lincoln Cents. With todays technology a coin can easily be turned Red with the right tools.
And Leo the Lyon: My issue was with SEGS, not the coin. I thought the coin was a beaut and I can see why you say that you were tickled to death because other collectors passed the coin by for lack of full steps.
But I had come to rely upon SEGS' grading and descriptions, especially on the Jeff's and the US-Philippines. And I was disappointed to see them so obviously off-target in their description of your coin.
Touchdown: Your claim to be able to create a fifth step with laser technology sounds like something you know about from personal experience. Can you expand on that, please? That would be significant. It would certainly seem to make the whole issue of steps irrelevant.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun