How I bought the $100,000 1960-D Jefferson Nickel for $9,750 plus the juice
Justhavingfun
Posts: 835 ✭
Graded MS 64 full steps by PCGS, this is the ONLY 1960-D full stepper in any grade. That makes this coin essential for any full-stepper maniac (like me) who wants to have a complete, full-step Jefferson set. Indeed, without this coin, a complete full step Jefferson collection (1938-1964) is not possible.
It is a coin that was once touted as the “first $100,000 Jefferson,” ... offered to me (and passed on) at $40,000 ... sold to someone else at auction at $32,000 (I didn’t bid) ... and now again at a (Bowers & Merena) auction, it came to me at a lowly $9,750 ($11,212 including the auctioneer’s vigorish).
What the heck happened? How was I able to pick up this so-called crown jewel of the Jefferson Nickel set, for a song?
The answer’s simple, when you walk the walk, not just talk it, and buy the coin, not the plastic. I don’t believe the coin is a true full stepper and two experts have told me the same. “4.75 steps, maybe,” to quote one of them, “if you hold it the right way. But 5 steps, no.”
So apparently, when experienced full-step collectors saw the ‘60-D (or got opinions from experts of this series), they ran for the hills. There was really no one there to bid strongly for the coin except me.
And why did I shovel out $11 big ones for a coin I was sure was mis-graded?
To get it off the market.
In all fairness, this coin’s the second best Jefferson known of this date in terms of steps. I’ve looked at a squintillion ‘60-D’s and only one coin had better steps: the famous MS65 ANACS 1960-D, which, I believe, is legitimately a 5-stepper.
But the 1960-D at this auction -- “the first $100,000 Jefferson” -- was an embarrassment to me in a full step holder. So I’m going to find a comfie little resting place for it in some dark corner of a safety deposit box and leave it there.
Will I enter it in my Registry Set? No way. I’ll continue to go with the MS 65 I already have in the registry set.
Again, buy the coin not the plastic. This coin went from $100,000 to $40,000 to $32,000 to $9,750 -- all within a two-year period -- because people evidently believed plastic would dictate the price. Not with me; and apparently not with Frank Corso, Ray Overby, and a host of other dedicated full-steppers.
Enjoy!
Just Having Fun (and lots of it!)
It is a coin that was once touted as the “first $100,000 Jefferson,” ... offered to me (and passed on) at $40,000 ... sold to someone else at auction at $32,000 (I didn’t bid) ... and now again at a (Bowers & Merena) auction, it came to me at a lowly $9,750 ($11,212 including the auctioneer’s vigorish).
What the heck happened? How was I able to pick up this so-called crown jewel of the Jefferson Nickel set, for a song?
The answer’s simple, when you walk the walk, not just talk it, and buy the coin, not the plastic. I don’t believe the coin is a true full stepper and two experts have told me the same. “4.75 steps, maybe,” to quote one of them, “if you hold it the right way. But 5 steps, no.”
So apparently, when experienced full-step collectors saw the ‘60-D (or got opinions from experts of this series), they ran for the hills. There was really no one there to bid strongly for the coin except me.
And why did I shovel out $11 big ones for a coin I was sure was mis-graded?
To get it off the market.
In all fairness, this coin’s the second best Jefferson known of this date in terms of steps. I’ve looked at a squintillion ‘60-D’s and only one coin had better steps: the famous MS65 ANACS 1960-D, which, I believe, is legitimately a 5-stepper.
But the 1960-D at this auction -- “the first $100,000 Jefferson” -- was an embarrassment to me in a full step holder. So I’m going to find a comfie little resting place for it in some dark corner of a safety deposit box and leave it there.
Will I enter it in my Registry Set? No way. I’ll continue to go with the MS 65 I already have in the registry set.
Again, buy the coin not the plastic. This coin went from $100,000 to $40,000 to $32,000 to $9,750 -- all within a two-year period -- because people evidently believed plastic would dictate the price. Not with me; and apparently not with Frank Corso, Ray Overby, and a host of other dedicated full-steppers.
Enjoy!
Just Having Fun (and lots of it!)
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
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Comments
$9,750 for an ms 64 1960 D Jefferson nickel sound like $9,749.95
TOO MUCH
Stewart
I could say the same thing about the Lincoln cents you buy. The money you spend on them is way too much for me.
But so what? It's your money; you want to spend it on Lincoln pennies, god bless. Enjoy yourself.
That's what I'm doing with my money.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
All I can say is; WOW! At first I was speechless but I highly commend you for what you have done! I, for one, and I"m certain, of those you have already mentioned and many others, thank you!
And I believe Mr. David Hall may share with everyone's sentiments about this coin. But I really don't know.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>sold to someone else at auction at $32,000 (I didn’t bid) ... and now again at a (Bowers & Merena) auction, it came to me at a lowly $9,750 >>
OUCH!
Russ, NCNE
Russ, NCNE
To get it off the market.
JHF - Why was it important to you to get the coin off the market?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
But I'll rephrase it: Why'd you pay $11,000 to get a $200 coin off the market???
Hello, Mr. Trade Dollar Nut:
You say that if I cracked the coin out and sent the cert back "That would definitely be worthy of applause."
I didn't do this for applause. I did this for me, myself, and I.
The coin was an embarrassment to me, for nearly two years. And then when Bowers & Merena took out a full page ad to tout it, I was mortified.
There was a $2,000 coin being touted as the most important and most valuable Jefferson in the world. It was a terrible put-down to all Jefferson full-steppers, myself included.
In my opinion, the proper thing would have been for PCGS to step up to the plate (like they did on the $39,000 proof 70, 1963 penny), and buy the coin off the market. But they apparently weren't even aware there was a problem and I was sure they weren’t going to do it. So I stepped up to the plate and did it.
Am I going to crack it out and decertify it myself? No, that's PCGS's job -- and problem. Last month, it was a $32,000 problem for them. Now, it's an $11,000 problem for them. If they want to buy it back, great, no problem.
Meanwhile, I've made sure though my purchase that no other well-intended if underinformed Jefferson collector ever get's stuck with that coin again at full-step prices.
Because that coin is retired. It's never going to see the light of day again, in a full-step slab, while I'm alive. And I feel great about it!
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
<< <i>And why did I shovel out $11 big ones for a coin I was sure was mis-graded?
To get it off the market.
JHF - Why was it important to you to get the coin off the market? >>
In no way, am I speaking for JHS but I want to relate a story to everyone.
Years ago, when my son was in Boy Scouts, in that Derby race they hold every year, my son took second place for 3 straight years, only to lose to the same car that some kid's grandpa made in his workshop out in his garage for his grandson. And many other parents also knew the facts because this guy would stand there and talk about it. The kids are supposed to assemble those derby car kits, not the parents! When the race was over, my son and I would stand there staring at this guy and I never went over to let the guy know how I felt. I did try to get my son to go over and tell the guy that he had a great car but my son wouldn't do it and I didn't blame him. Every year, I told my son that he was the winner and not this guy. And my son understood this.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I don't think this 1960-D Jeff is ever going to be a poster-child for the modern-bashers -- now that I've driven a stake through its heart.
Dear Mr. Eureka and Lloyd Mincy: Thank you for your thoughtful question. I think I've already answered it in my response to Mr. Trade Dollar Nut.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
roadrunner
Wondercoin
Bruce Scher
JHF - Please enlighten me,You stated you were putting the coin in a safe deposit box and it will never see the light of day.
MS 68 said you will be sending the coin to David Hall for downgrade review.
Wondercoin stated you will be taking the coin out of the PCGS FS holder.
I stated THAT i BELIEVE an ms 64 1960 d nickel is worth a nickel.Shouldn't you send the coin to PCGS (David Hall) under guaranteed Resubmission which is the same as downgrade review ? PCGS does make mistakes and dAVID hALL WILL GIVE YOU A WRITTEN EXPLANATION WHATEVER HIS CONCLUSION.
sTEWART
Wondercoin
If you have $11k to spare, there are many charities that would appreciation your generosity at this time of year.
For the record, I sent to PCGS a PR70 Washington for review-- the coin had NO claim to a PR70 status. Unfortunately, this was the coin stolen by a postal worker (I wrote about this before a couple of years ago).
cheers, alan mendelson
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
<< <i>In all fairness, this coin’s the second best Jefferson known of this date in terms of steps. I’ve looked at a squintillion ‘60-D’s and only one coin had better steps: the famous MS65 ANACS 1960-D, which, I believe, is legitimately a 5-stepper...
Again, buy the coin not the plastic. This coin went from $100,000 to $40,000 to $32,000 to $9,750 -- all within a two-year period -- because people evidently believed plastic would dictate the price.
Just Having Fun (and lots of it!)
There was a $2,000 coin being touted as the most important and most valuable Jefferson in the world. It was a terrible put-down to all Jefferson full-steppers, myself included.
>>
I attended the auction for the 60-D Jefferson.
I can agree with you about the coin, but for a different reason. I think your sentiment of the coin still focuses moreso on the slab than the coin itself. Unfortunately, the plastic either has "FS" on it, or it doesn't, and I think that causes us to get all too caught up in the designation. Fact of the matter is that this coin may very well be the second best steps on a 60-D in existence, and that mere fact brings value to it. It's not at least a $2,000 coin without its steps. Maybe its a $9,750 coin with its steps.
Yes, the coin has weakness in the 4th step under the second pillar, and yes, it has a faint cut through the steps in the same area. If the PCGS plastic said... "MS 64 - Second Best Step Coin We've Ever Graded", sounds like we'd have no problem with that. Personally, I don't have a problem calling this coin FS, and that's what I grade it. Don't have a problem with those that say it isn't FS. I don't think there is a well founded standard for determining whether a coin is FS or not, that's just too black and white. But it does sounds like most of us can agree that this coin has truly fantastic steps for the date, a true phenomenon, and the coin deserves some premium value for its steps.
However, I do think that this coin is a dog. It has a deep gouge in the cheek, it has chatter throughout, and it has been dipped to its unoriginal untimely death. It's shiny and chromy, and is just not a nice coin to look at. I love the steps on this coin, but I hate the coin. So, if I were to bury the coin into the abyss like you say you'll do, I wouldn't do it because it has the second best set of steps ever witnessed on a 60-D, I'd bury it becasue it's butt ugly.
JHF, looking forward to meeting you one day!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Thank you! And I will take your suggestion to use the downgrade review, and cite you when I do.
Hello Roadrunner:
Freeing up that $9,000 is a nice suggestion. We'll see if PCGS goes along.
Dear Wondercoin: Thank you Mitch, both for your encouragement on this issue and for your help in building my great full-stepper set in the first place.
And Scher: Thank you too, Bruce! In many ways I feel closest to you: You've been there, done that, like me, and your support is especially dear to me.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
"What would happen to the prior owners if is down graded ? Would they get their money back???"
Dear Man of Coins:
I also think David Hall will be happy to buy it back once he sees it. But $9 gees is a heavy hit to take, especially for a public company. Can you imagine how many coins they have to grade at $15 each, to make that back?
No matter. If PCGS won't buy the back from me and de-certify it, I'll simply go back to plan A: burying it in the back of one of my safe deposit boxes, so it never sees the light of day again while I'm alive.
Regarding the prior owners, the guy who slabbed it, has a huge profit. The guy who bought it at the Bowers and Merena auction has a huge loss. I have a big loss if PCGS won't do the buy-back thing. I bought it not expecting a buy back, and so long as I know that "embarrassment of a coin" is off the market, I'm happy. But I'll be a lot happier with $9,000 back in my pocket.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
Ah, Ronyahski: What a delightful description of the 1960-D. I laughed out loud when I saw it: I'd bury it because it was butt ugly.
Another funny thing about the auction: the guy who put that set up did have a powerhouse coin, the 42-d/d in MS64 full steps. This really IS the best known and is so good, my agent tells me he thinks it may upgrade. But the guy at Bowers and Merena who decided which nickel to advertise, chose the wrong one: the 1960-D instead of the '42-D/D.
I eagerly gobbled up the 42-d/d for 18+ and will light a votary candle to give thanks for getting it so cheap.
Best wishes,
Just having lots of fun
Ain't you right?! No one who wasn't passionate about a series would do this, and I didn't even flinch. I didn't think about it in terms of passion but that's what it is. I really do love and enjoy the Jeff's, especially in full steps.
You know, I feel the same way about the Shield Nickels (in full horizontal shield lines), and the Standing Liberty Quarters (Full Head), and I'm sure I'd do the same thing there.
I appreciate your invitation to meet one day. Maybe it will happen and it would be fun. I'm not often in the country, but if you come to Southeast Asia -- especially Manila or Bangkok -- send me an e-mail, and we'll see if we can fit our schedules together.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun!
not make full step by todays standards. Thanks for looking out for the fellow Jefferson enthusiasts!
After a couple of years of collecting full steps (38-64), I've finally made it into the top 20. I pride myself
on collecting nice specimens and not holders. Any chance that you will one day post photograghs on
your sets? Maybe even a "showing" of your collection at a major event? Would love to see those 68's!!
My question is a little different. If the coin was purchased at auction by a buyer who understood the coin was not full steps then how would that buyer deserve compensation? After all he bought it knowing its true grade and value.
It would seem the guy who lost out was the former buyer who bought it thinking he was getting the real thing.
Will PCGS be willing to compensate someone under these conditions?
Bravo for what you did!!!!
<< <i>My question is a little different. If the coin was purchased at auction by a buyer who understood the coin was not full steps then how would that buyer deserve compensation? After all he bought it knowing its true grade and value. >>
Chloebess, that is a fair question and point.
However, in theory, at least, the PCGS grade guarantee should apply, regardless of the knowledge on the part of the buyer. After all, the guarantee is to help ensure that the grading is accurate, and presumably to protect other potential/future buyers of such a coin.
For example: A true full steps in this case (since there is only one) would be difficult to value..........only to be determined at auction I would assume since it is so unique. How far back would PCGS be required to go in compensation to losers in the marketplace? What about other situations where a sharp eye can see that a coin is not right. You could start a whole new trend (hypothetically) of collectors and dealers looking for overgraded coins in order to receive compensation. I might have a couple myself.....but bought them because they were priced right and we have all heard "buy the coin not the plastic".
I hope the coin gets returned simply so we can see what will happen. I certainly respect the collector's position in getting this "unique" type of coin off the market. If there is compensation I hope the collector who bought it sincerely thinking it was legit is taken into consideration.
Reposted photo as the original post was lost.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Just wondering.
Great exhibition of passion for a series and hobby you love! Made me wonder how high you were prepared to bid to take this coin off the market.
WH
"I'll be glad to hear no more about promotions and defenses of the $100,000 MS64 1960-D Nickel!!"
Wow, Morgan Nut 2! Doesn't it ever feel great to have that embarrassment off the market once and for all?!
Glad to meet you Bolivarshagnasty and thanks for your kind words. Regarding the photographs ... I've asked my IT Department to teach me how to post pictures on this website once and for all. I also asked them to get me a good digital camera so I could take lots and lots of pictures of the coins at the bank. So that's in the works. If not this trip, then the next.
And regarding exhibiting the coins at the shows -- one of the country's leading dealers was visiting with me over the weekend. He's asked me about exhibiting before this and I am perfectly happy for him to handle the arrangments for exhibiting either my Shield Nickels (Proof or Business Strikes), Standing Liberty Quarters, or Jefferson full steppers. But, darned if we didn't go walking, and the cold air got me sick. I had to tell him to go home a day and a half early. The exhibitions were one of the most important pieces of business on my unfortunately unfinished agenda.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
What will PCGS do? Well, you've read the comments about that coin: Some of them -- major dealers included -- slammed it every which way. They slammed the steps; the slammed the grade. One called it "an embarrassment of a coin." Right on!
So, that's a coin PCGS is going to want off, off, off the market.
But what they do about it is anybody's guess. If they don't want to buy it back... no big deal to me. As I said right from the start, I'm perfectly happy -- delighted -- to stick it in a dark croner of a safety deposit box, and let it sit there for the rest of my life.
Coin Dealer 1 makes an important point; that their grade is something of a guarantee -- a guarantee, but judged by themselves, so there's ambiguity. But guarantee or no, I think the point that rules is that this 1960-D so-called full-stepper, is a clearly problem coin. PCGS normally does great work. And when an important error slips through, I would think they would want it off the market. If I'm wrong ... no problem.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
Some full-step enthusiasts, myself included, pay fairly strong money for an "almost 5-stepper" of a date where there are none known.
I have a 1969-S graded by PCGS MS65 with 4 3/4 steps and paid fairly strong money for it, even though it was correctly graded not full steps.
Your '69-S, as a flawed 5.5 stepper, may be the number 1 coin -- vis-a-vis steps -- for that date. I'd have no idea how to value tit: $500 or $1,000? I think you'd get that. More than that, I don't know; the MS64 tag really, really holds it down.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
Dear Leo the Lyon. I don't know how you did what you did with those photographs, but they're super helpful! Thank you so much.
Nice meeting you, Mickey B: If they buy a coin back, they buy it at market value. What's market value? Whatever they say it is. But I've heard that they're usually pretty reasonable.
Hello Wayne Herndon: Aren't you a dealer? Somehow, I think I've bought more than few coins from you, including a Jeff full-stepper or two.
Anyway, you ask: "how high you were prepared to bid to take this coin off the market?"
When I was in college (48 years ago! Yikes, that hurts), I helped support myself playing poker Sometimes after one of the other players folded on a hand, he'd want to know if I was bluffing or for real. I'd always say ... "You have to pay to see my cards."
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
A perfect example of why I'd much rather buy the 'just missed it' coins than pay the premium for the strike designation. When I'm old and can't work the electron microscope anymore, it simply won't matter to me...
PCGS has created a "storm" with this onel, obviously because this is an important grade for the date.
They have a liablility and should step to the plate and do something if for no other reason to stop the bad publicity they are receiving.
Hope the coin is removed from its current holder and graded properly and that those that were involved will get some sort of compensation.
Your approach to this matter is remarkably commendable and you are a credit to all true collectors.
Thank you.
And, yes, you have picked up a few coins from me over the years.
WH
Changing directions for a second, because there's a point to it, my Shield Nickel collections, both proof and business strikes, are both the "#1 Best Known of All Time" or whatever it is that PCGS calls them. Assembling those beautiful collections was one of my more difficult feats, and along the way, I consistently paid (and pay) strong premiums for coins with full horizontal shield lines -- because to me they looked better. I didn't care about the lack of a PCGS designation.
The full-headed Trade Dollars are comparable in added beauty to the full-horizontal-shield-line Shield Nickels (and to the Jefferson Full Steppers).
From your comment mocking the full steppers, one might think that you thought it was foolish to pay strong premiums for full headed Trade Dollars too. Are you trying to say then that looking at your collection of Trade Dollars, one sees a lot of smooosh heads?
I doubt it. I think you're far too thoughtful a collector to buy low quality strikes, designations or not.
Ditto for the full-horizontal-band-liners and the Full-Steppers.
So if you don't like full-step Jeff's, just don't buy them and please keep your gratuitous mockery of my fellow full-steppers and me to yourself. It doesn't present you in a good light. It just makes you out as a nasty, thoughtless person, and from what I've heard about you, I don't believe either is true.
Let us full-steppers enjoy our coins in peace. There's nothing wrong with that, is there?
Enjoy yourself,
Just Having Fun
<< <i>Lao tae khun (Up to you, Stewart). Too much for you. Not too much for me.
I could say the same thing about the Lincoln cents you buy. The money you spend on them is way too much for me.
But so what? It's your money; you want to spend it on Lincoln pennies, god bless. Enjoy yourself.
That's what I'm doing with my money.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun >>
pennies....
Changing directions for a second, because there's a point to it, my Shield Nickel collections, both proof and business strikes, are both the "#1 Best Known of All Time" or whatever it is that PCGS calls them. Assembling those beautiful collections was one of my more difficult feats, and along the way, I consistently paid (and pay) strong premiums for coins with full horizontal shield lines -- because to me they looked better. I didn't care about the lack of a PCGS designation.
........
So if you don't like full-step Jeff's, just don't buy them and please keep your gratuitous mockery of my fellow full-steppers and me to yourself. It doesn't present you in a good light. It just makes you out as a nasty, thoughtless person, and from what I've heard about you, I don't believe either is true.
My comment had nothing to do with the coin you purchased being a 'loser' ... and everything to do with the value represented by the coin that Leo posted. Collect what you want to collect - to each their own. More power to you if you wish to pay the premium for less than 0.1% of the strike. I would think, however, that you are secure enough in your convictions that you could withstand a dissenting opinion. Sorry that you didn't care for the 'electron microscope' comment - although it wasn't literally true it certainly is figuratively. The 1960-D picture Leo posted shows a coin virtually indistinguishable from a full step coin. I suggest that a coin like that is a much better purchase for all but the most dedicated collectors.
....... The full-headed Trade Dollars are comparable in added beauty to the full-horizontal-shield-line Shield Nickels (and to the Jefferson Full Steppers).
From your comment mocking the full steppers, one might think that you thought it was foolish to pay strong premiums for full headed Trade Dollars too. Are you trying to say then that looking at your collection of Trade Dollars, one sees a lot of smooosh heads?
I doubt it. I think you're far too thoughtful a collector to buy low quality strikes, designations or not.
Ditto for the full-horizontal-band-liners and the Full-Steppers.......
What the heck is a Full Head trade dollar? The day they start that designation is the day I sell my set. I couldn't care less if the strike on the head is full. Here is one of my most treasured coins. Note the slightly weak head and stars. Did I think any less of the coin because it isn't 100.0% fully struck? Hell no - I'm just not that much of a snob that I'd turn away one of the prettiest trade dollars in existance because I'm anal about 1% of the surface area.
Russ, NCNE