Well, well, well. I see I touched a raw nerve with you, Mr. Trade Dollar Nut, when I called your "gratuitous mockery," well, "gratuitous mockery."
And I see you immediately whipped out your metaphorical electron microscope to prove you're not like those silly, stupid full-steppers -- but vastly superior. Relax; you don't have to prove your worth to me. I already do very much respect you.
That's one of the reasons your post bothered me. Because when you gratuitously mock others -- when you rain on their parades -- you're the one that looks bad. And anyway I parse your post, it comes out the same: that you were mocking the full-steppers. The result: you made yourself look like a nasty, thoughtless person, which I don't believe is what you want to project ... which I don't believe you are ... and is not what you deserve.
Now, we all say things meant to be light, funny, or jesting, that unintentionally have teeth that bite. Maybe that's what happened with the post in question. No problem; water under the bridge.
So go and have fun without tearing down other people. That's all I'm saying.
A good place to begin might be to count to ten slowly, and then kill the angry response you started to formulate in your mind. Much better for all of us, especially yourself, if you'd withdraw/edit/kill the post that started this. Then we can both wipe out all the rest of the glop that followed and get back to the real point at hand: the 1960-D. Lao tae khun (up to you).
Business calls: I'll be off line for the rest of the afternoon and much of evening. I wish you well,
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
<< <i>And anyway I parse your post, it comes out the same: that you were mocking the full-steppers. >>
I think you may be reading more in to it than it actually was. I find it more likely that his comment about microscopes is because he's old and has lousy eyesight.
(Just for the record, most varieties don't do anything for me for the same reason. I can't see them!)
After reading these posts and recovering from the auction I feel I should put in my five cents.
I love collecting Jeffersons (and admiring fantastic collections like Frank's, Leo's, JHF's, and Ray's). Because of my work and home situation, I cannot travel to buy coins. I bought most of my collection sight unseen. When I bought sight unseen, the coins were only in PCGS slabs (no TPG grading service is perfect, but PCGS is by and far superior to the others in my opinion). I paid a lot for the 60-D because it was unique in terms of its certification. When I got the coin, I spent many hours staring at the steps in question; and convinced myself they were full. I never sought the opinion of PCGS.
I sold the collection because of a personal situation. I was not hoping for huge profits on the 60-D (but I did hope to recover most of my investment). Bowers chose to highlight the 60-D in their advertising. I had no input regarding any advertising. I listed about 10 coins that I thought were the highlights of my collection. My interaction with Bowers was positive and I would use them again.
JHF, the 42 D/D is a fantastic coin. I hope it upgrades for you. I sent it in for upgrade (in the holder), and it came back the same grade. I would like to hear of PCGS's opinion of the 60-D if you send it in for review.
There is a question of the 61-D and its steps. Again I felt they were full. If PCGS reviews that coin and removes the full step designation, I would be willing to return my profits on that coin to PCGS if they buy it back. I do not want to profit from a coin that is not properly graded.
My hope is that this controversy will stimulate interest in full steppers and bring more collecters to Jeffersons.
"There is a question of the 61-D and its steps. Again I felt they were full. If PCGS reviews that coin and removes the full step designation, I would be willing to return my profits on that coin to PCGS if they buy it back. I do not want to profit from a coin that is not properly graded."
Mark: You are a true gentleman. Your 61(d) in MS64FS in the sale did receive very spirited bidding and sold for a very strong level. But, if PCGS ever decides later that coin is also not a true full stepper, I fail to see how (or why) you should return a penny of the auction proceeds you received for the coin you consigned to that auction at NO RESERVE.
Your comment regarding your buying many of the coins in your collection sight-unseen - I believe this is one area, believe it or not, most classic and modern coin dealers may totally agree - collectors should strongly consider employing the use of a knowledgeable dealer in the series that collector is working on to represent them on the purchase of coins, especially auction coins they are unable to personally lot view. IMHO, it is well worth the 5%-10% typical fee involved (fee on only on those coins actually purchased) for such services.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Well, well, well. I see I touched a raw nerve with you, Mr. Trade Dollar Nut,
LOL - I had the same thing written to you in my last post ... but I deleted it before posting as being unnecessarily confrontational and lacking in tact.
I stand by my post. It was not directed at you, but rather at those neophytes who might be considering spending money on strike designations. I feel they should know that not all collectors believe that a well struck coin is a 'better' coin. Those that collect beautifully lustrous toned 'pieces of art' would certainly disagree with your assertion.
The simple fact is that we're all looking for something in the coins we collect. While one collector wants only gold or only 15th century British another wants toned or modern. It really doesn't matter because we're doing this mostly for very selfish reasons whether as pure collectors or pure speculators. I personally would rather have a standing liberty quar- ter that had it's head worn off from good honest wear than one that was otherwise gem but was struck by worn or poorly aligned dies. But there is no "right" answer, there are on- ly different perspectives and different objectives. Many people are far more concerned with factors other than strike or absence of marks and even among individuals it will often de- pend on the specific series or coin.
While many are just happy to see this coin off the market or are greatly concerned with how easily one can lose money in this hobby, I'm left to ponder just what this coins is really "worth" in the long run. It's certainly one of the finest of the date whether it's overgraded or not. It certainly will stand nearly alone on this basis unless it's destroyed and this would seem most improbable.
bashers of coins would a couple of dollars raw that if in the right holders with tags that make then worth thousands of dollars.............. yes
and all the modern holder promoters why is this coin not in their private holdings?? >>
Is it just me or has the quality of bashing sunk to a new low. This crap wouldn't even be worth a response were it not derailing an otherwise pretty good thread.
Personally I have always thought the extra designations (FBL, FS, FH, etc.) to be silly. They are all different ways of trying to say "full strike." But they are arbitrary. For example, in SLQ's, I prefer to see full shield rivets. Each series has its typical weak points - but they are NOT the same on every coin of a particular series, or even a particular date. One coin may have weak shield lines, while its brother has weak eagle's claws and arrow feathers. Thus focusing exclusively on one characteristic is unreasonable. Furthermore, it grossly distorts the market values as everyone suddenly HAS to have that plastic with the extra letters on it. And PCGS makes it worse by giving bonus points in the Registry sets for these arcitrary criteria.
Since when is strike the only important attribute that should add bonus points? What about luster? Beautiful and colorful toning? Eye appeal?
If you have ONE numerical grade, it should include strike (it always used to !!! ... you weren't ever supposed to call a coin GEM in the old days if it wasn't well struck).
Conversely, if you are going to add attributes to the technical grade, why only strike? What about a luster grade, a color grade, and an eye appeal grade?
Why do some series have these silly designations and others do not? What about "full horn" buffs and "full corn" Libs ??
It's all nonsense !!! [hehehe this will provoke heated responses]
Thank you Chloebess and you, too, Wayne Herndon: Your inputs and comments much appreciated.
You too, Russ. And I agree with you aside that ...."most varieties don't do anything for me for the same reason. I can't see them!. I have the same policy; I won't buy a variety I can't see myself. I don't care what the plastic says -- I gotta see it to buy it.
And I love your tag line which I quote: "People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. May I have your permission to post that in my office?
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
Welcome to the thread, Mr. M. J. Phelan. I appreciate you coming on line with us and I really, really appreciate your thoughtful input. Mr. Wondercoin has it right: You're a true gentleman.
In many ways, I share your liability in buying coins: I live in Thailand and I cannot travel to the US auctions where I buy many of my coins. Indeed, to my sorrow, I've never once been able to attend a coin show in the US. I would love to do that and see all the bourse tables myself. And, of course, bid for myself at an auction.
But unable to do that, what I've found the most effective way to buy coins it to ask a dealer to act as my agent. The dealers I work with are knowledgeable in the series I'm interested in. They view the coins for me and give me their judgments.
The two dealers I mostly work with in this manner are notoriously tough on the coins they screen for me. One dealer for instance, recently visited to a venue pretty far away and selected 9 coins that he though would interest me and then killed 7 of them as not good enough for me. And I loved that.
You're right, the PCGS slab is the best, but it's not consistent enough, especially on the designations. I've found paying an agent 10% to screen the coins and bid for me has saved me enormous sums of money. And it's likewise brought home to me some great coins I might have overlooked. The bottom line: When I finally see the coins (sometimes 3 to 5 months later), I'm almost never disappointed.
So you might want to set up a similar arrangement with a dealer you're comfortable with. The guy or gal has to have a good eye and has to be willing to tell you: "No. Stop. You don't want this coin," even though it costs him money (his commission).
Regarding the '60-D, now that I know who owned it and how to reach you, I'll be sure to tell you of PCGS's opinion, when I send it in for review.
Regarding the 1942 D/D, I am soooo happy to hear your comments on it. I haven't seen the coin yet (won't see it until Thursday), but that's exactly what my agent said about it. A great coin.
And I too love collecting Jeffersons and "hope that this contrvery will stimulate interest in full steppers and bring more collectors to Jeffersons."
In the meantime, if you'll pm me where you live, if we happen to be close, let's set up a date one morning and I'll show the collection in person. And I'll show you another Jeff collection I'm having an absolute blast with -- a date collection of Jeff's in off metals. What a thrill you'll get to see a full-step Jeff in MS65 RED!!!
Warm regards, Mark and I hope your home situation clears up so you can resume collection the Jeff's.
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
How much this coin is worth is an interesting question.
I'm not sure you're right though, that this is one of the finest specimens of a 1960-D. It's certainly one of the finest in terms of steps. But for eye-appeal, I'm not so sure. The famous ANACS MS 65 has more steps, and is also a far more attractive coin. I also have an MS66 with only two steps -- and it's a very nice nickel.
How much would the nickel would go for? Only one way to find out. If I get the coin back in an MS64 Not Full Steps holder, maybe I'll put it up for auction to find out. That might be fun!
Thank you Cladking and ...
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
As a longtime collector of Jeffs (albeit raw) Mr. TradedollarNut's comments struck me as less critical terms than seemed. Basically there is a school of thought that says it is best to appreciate coins by looking at the WHOLE coin in context including surface preservation, eye appeal, luster and strike. Essentially Q. David Bowers --a strong "Good Stike" proponent-- has brought this up with Standing Liberty Quarters too--where sometimes the shield rivits might be very weak even though the head was full--as well as the price being full. The point being a very nearly full head coin-- but not FH-- might be more attractive and desireable overall to him than and otherwise unattractive, poorly preserved FH with poor center strike ( at double the price).
While Jeffs are better defined strike-wise by their steps-- the real problem in my view is with PCGS. A more definative or complete way is needed of saying that a Jeff is fully struck/ full steps, nearly full, or is a sad blob on the reverse. Until there's a slightly more complete way of defining gradation of strike, there could be more market distortion in Registry prices and worse, embarrassing (and expensive) mistakes at PCGS. Without the gradation I'm afraid you run into what we have here which is a coin that's really superior in strike, "ie. 4 3/4 steps but not 5" but which ranks in PCGS's eyes as RELATIVELY better than anything else they've seen so "what the heck--let's call it FS".
I really don't think this is going to hurt Bowers & Merena at all and may even help them with Jefferson Nickel enthusiasts. For one thing, the man who put this 1960-d up for auction, was very satisfied with them and gave them a rave review on this thread.
Moreover, they were the first auction house to give Jefferson Nickels real attention vis-a-vis a full page ad. If you have a beautiful MS 67 1901-S Barber Quarter, it's easy to take a full page ad out to push that. Ditto for an SVDB penny in MS67 Red.
But for a Jefferson Nickel? That took guts and my hat is off to Bowers & Merena for doing it.
Cordially,
Just Having Fun!
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
I agree with you about the Standing Liberty Quarters. I'm a dedicated Full-head collector but I still look at the full coin. On the 1916 and 1917 Type I, a full nipple is very important to me; far more important than the rivets -- because the nipple is where the eye inevitably goes and to a large extent determines the eye appeal of the coin.
On type 2's, the head dominates the eye appeal. A smoosh head really detracts from the overall attractiveness of a Standing Liberty,. Missing a few rivets doesn't have nearly the same impact.
But when the head is close to full steps and you need to pull out a loupe to make sure whether it is or isn't, then the rivets rule. That's why, if you go to my Standing Liberty Registry set, you'll see several coins in there that are NOT full head (where I have others that are). I simply chose, for purposes of the registry set, the nicest looking coin.
It's the same situation in the Jefferson's. You're right on target there also. The full steps is NOT a perfect indicator of the quality of the nickel. But it's the closest indicator there is.
And you're right that this leads to odd distortions in the market for Jefferson where a beautiful MS67 Jefferson with 4.75 steps will go begging while a plain-Jane MS65 with 5.00 steps will get big bucks behind it.
But the silly distortions not withstanding, I (obviously) do collect them in full steps. One reason, besides the attractiveness, is their difficulty. When I went into Jeffersons (as a spill-over series for my Shield Nickels), I started collecting them without the full steps. But the series without the full steps was tirivial. There was no challenge to it, so it was boring.
Then I bought a few full steppers, I was impressed by the difference in the look. So I began collecting them. The Jeff full steppers IS an enormous challenge that made it good wholesome fun. They still are.
Thanks again and...
Best wishes,
Just Havnig Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
ME too--No question the nipple is the first thing I'm attracted to on a T1 SLQ!!!!--although was actually citing Bowers for the example. I really have no problem with the Full Steps or FH designation and applaud your dedication of assembling some challenging nice sets. My REAL problem--and I think it's at the heart all the uproar in this thread and some LONG previous threads on the main board-----is market distortion and supposed dealer promotion. The problem is illustrated by your example--a monster MS67 coin with 4.75 steps---zero attention at sale---- verses a FS MS 65 (or I'll add a dipped out dog of a FS MS64) getting big $ sale interest.------The answer I suppose is straightforward and that is for price guides to break down values by the number of steps printed right next to the PCGS grade number.
You're on target, again, Mr Morgan Nut 2: If PCGS actually listed the number of steps frmo, say 4, 4.25, 4.50,... on up to 6, that would be a big help. Or even just 4.0, 4.5, 5.0 ... etc... That would be a big help.
But then the distortions would still be there so long as the Registry Set listings insisted on 5 full steps. So the problem is really in the Registry Sets. A prorated credit for the steps would go an enormous way to solving the problem, but that's never going to happen.
May I shouldn't say "never." IF ANACS 's new owners bootstrap up that service to a parity with PCGS ... IF they start formulating their own Registry Sets ... AND IF they start giving prorated credits for the steps ... then I think there's a chance that the Jefferson full-stepper collectors will start to migrate over there. And then, PCGS -- which is really a marketing company as much as a grading company -- will respond the only way they can. i.e., by copying them and beginning to prorating credits for the steps.
But the first "IF" is the big one. But this is a subject for another thread. Tune in same time next year and we'll see what happening.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
As I've already mentioned, the coin JHF will obviate forever from future collections, came originally from Bern Nagengast #2 Jefferson nickel collection. It was raw when he owned the coin as were most of his coins. Eventually, Steve Wells would buy Bern's #1 and #2 Jefferson nickel collections and he had the #2 60-D certified By ANACS. And for a number of years, the ANACS pops stood at 1/0 until PCGS started to certify FS Jefferson nickels. And of course, this coin was crossed over into a PCGS holder. The coin pictured was Bern's #1 set coin and neither ANACS nor PCGS would certify this coin FS and I'm certain Steve Wells did try but without success. By some unusual turn of events or the possibility became known that some bucks could be made on this coin, Steve Wells returned this coin back to Mr Nagengast and without hesitation, I acquired it for $600! Bern had sent the coin to me on approvel and I have enjoyed owning this coin ever since. Not only does this coin grade high in every respect to it's strike, eye appeal and steps, this coin was Bern's exclamation point to his #1 Collection. When you consider that Mr Nagengast had no internet or a simple means to have access to thousands of nickels and mint sets, Bern had one of the most important traits as a collector and that was through coin shows and by mail and travel through many dealer and collector contacts. I truly believe that I'll never be able to upgrade this coin nor by any means. It's now a very major cornerpiece of my collection. On a side note and less importantly, having the ability to macro the steps, I played around with them through cropping and pasting out the nicks and bridges, to measure the completeness of the steps against Microsoft's Word paper ruler guide and in a sense, the steps are 94.46% complete! I hope that I worded that right but it's really no big deal other than, I usually do the same for a coin's entire strike and grade, so to speak. A larger picture of this coin can be seen in my profile.
Also, I would like to mention that there is the lone ANACS MS66 5.50 step 1942-D/horz D EDS example that still exists. Has anyone seen this coin yet?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Leo: Why do you think Steve Wells chose the "#2" coin to go to ANACS and not "#1" in the first place? And, after PCGS would not slab the "#1" coin as FS, did ANACS also not want to slab "#1" FS either? Just curious.
Aside from the discussion on these (2) 1960(d) Jeffs, the nicest 1960(d) nickel I have ever seen resides in a PCGS-MS65 holder today as part of JHF's collection. Maybe it will achieve a "FS" designation one day.
I also just heard that the 1942 D/D ANACS-MS66 (5 1/2 stepper?) may have been consigned to the Heritage FUN sale taking place next month? If true, that should also be a neat coin to examine!
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>How much this coin is worth is an interesting question... How much would the nickel would go for? Only one way to find out. If I get the coin back in an MS64 Not Full Steps holder, maybe I'll put it up for auction to find out. That might be fun!
Just Having Fun >>
My guess is the coin, if resubmitted, comes back MS62 FS, and is worth approximately $11,212.50, until the next FS 60-D is slabbed.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
This is my first attempt to get pics to show up within a post. Attached pics are of the closest thing to a 1960-D FS 5c I have seen until this post. The coin is in an ANACS ms65 holder. Sometime around 1988, I was searching a large lot of BU 5c rolls which included as I recall, 22 1960-d rolls (880 coins). The coin pictured had by far had the best step detail and was in fact the only coin in the group which had anything below the 1st step visible. Obverse of the coin is also well-struck with a rounded cheek. Best of all, It does not have that "run over by a truck" look seen on the majority of Jeffs in rolls from the 1950's and 1960's.
I admire your tenacity to get this coin off the market and agree with the rest that this coin should be reviewed...
It's good to hear all the opinions about this coin and also hope the discussion helps this series.
I have an idea to fix your possible problem... you could send me the coin (or the 66 in FS), lets say... as a Christmas present and I'd forever be grateful.
Steve
U.S. Air Force Security Forces Retired
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
<< <i>Leo: Why do you think Steve Wells chose the "#2" coin to go to ANACS and not "#1" in the first place? And, after PCGS would not slab the "#1" coin as FS, did ANACS also not want to slab "#1" FS either? Just curious.
Wondercoin. >>
Personally, I wouldn't of sent either to any grading company. But just from comparing the two, Steve may have very well believed what Nagengast believed, the #1 coin was the far better coin. The best I can say as to why neither company wanted to certified the #1 coin, they probably didn't want such a slider in a higher MS65 grade. Instead, they made the mistake at the MS64 grade level. I do not doubt a true FS 1960-D will eventually come along and so with many of the other 1960 to 1970 dates. The coins JHF has, Emzee's coin (very nice by the way), the couple I have, it's just a matter of time. All it will take is an original nickel roll or bag or quite possibly, another longtime Jefferson nickel collector.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Wow: that's a beautiful 60-D. Congratulations and I can see why it's the cornerstone of your collection. Emzee's is a beaut, too. Even though that's not full steps, I'd bet that's one of the 5 best in terms of steps.
Finally, I hope you're right that a true full step 1960-D will eventually come along.
Welcome Emzee! And congratulations on finding that 60-D. Your experience shows that even 4 stepper 1960-D's are incredibly scarce. You searched almost 1,000 coins and 4 stepper "had by far the best step detail."
And congratulations on successfully posting a picture on the thread. I'm determined to learn how myself.
Thank you Full Step Jeffs!
And Steve, aren't you very active in the Full Stepper Nickel club? Or do I have you mixed up with someone else?
Laughing out loud, Stewart Blay, laughing out loud. Those are, how would I put it ... um, er ... yummmmmmy. That's the word. Talking about the coins, of course.
And talking about hot coins, I'm looking forward to seeing your 1894 barber dimes to compare with my 1894-S.
Finally, thank you DMWMR. What I did was solely for my own selfish reasons. If it helps all my fellow full-stepper collectors, so much the better. Neighborhood effect.
Enjoy yourselves, especially Stewart
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
Verily, where is Dave Bowers when one needs his anecdotes?
I so love the one he relates regarding Captain Cook.
Captain James Cook (1728-1779) was an enthusiastic and obsessive collector of everything. One of his most famous tales of collection involves a Tongan wit trying to sell him a turd on a stick -- a cautionary tale about collecting!
While I completely understand this impulse I must admit that my first thought was ‘too bad he didn’t buy it.’ Can you imagine what we could learn from that turd today? About the human body in the 18th century? About the lives of Pacific Islanders? My second, perhaps more sane, thought was that the person trying to make the sale would seemed to have understood something fundamental to collecting – that it is always in some way about power. Teasing Cook and insulting him with such an offering seems likely to have been an expression of suspicion about (if not out right hostility towards) Cook’s collecting enterprise.
What I like so very much about JHF's story of the 1960-D Jefferson nickel is that it helps me to negotiate my feelings regarding the story of Cook and the Tongan as it relates to modern slab collecting. The charming and funny JHF has delivered a swashbuckling keynote post in which he argues that purchasing the wrongfully slabbed 1960-D full step Jefferson was to "selfishly" remove the blight from the marketplace – particularly "for the good of preserving the hobby of collecting full step Jeffersons." He bemoans the modern day Tongans hyping their turds on a stick, while he gleefully pays ten thousand dollars for an example to the Tongans (or their victims). He mocks the endless bits of paper tabs we are amassing under the PCGS label in favor of the possibilities of a newly arisen ANACS marketing ploy deliniating the degrees of such turds on a stick.
Shall we grade the turd, the stick, or both? One can't yet see through the smoke in the crystal ball. He suggested in the kindest possible language that we get a hold of ourselves and our collecting habits, while the turd is still warm on the stick in his pocket.
I say let PCGS buy their own turd-on-a-stick back. You are only bolstering the Tongans when you buy a 1960-D "full step" jefferson wrongfully slabbed. Do as Cook did and refuse the turd. Don't let the steam from the fresh turd seep through you pockets for all to see.
Even the pomposity of Cook didn't prevent him from gleening the whiff of the turd offered before he declined it. What about you JFH?
And please pass the $10k toilet paper when your are finished. There are a few Lincolns that need wiping from the crack of the Lincoln registry.
That's a beautiful D/D. And nice clear steps too. Thanks for the tip off. You can bet that I'll be there bidding on it.
Dear Clad King: "Is it just me or has the quality of bashing sunk to a new low. This crap wouldn't even be worth a response were it not derailing an otherwise pretty good thread. This is getting intolerable."
Wow, are you ever right. And they write the same thing, thread after thread, and preen themselves as if they they just had some brilliant new insight. They think they're witty but all they project is that they're nasty, angry, and insecure. Can you imagine having to sit down and have lunch with some of these people? UGGGGH. Doesn't the thought just make you shudder. All I can do is pity them.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
And here's the reverse! I know this is a trivial question but does anyone want to try and grade this coin? It presently resides in an ANACS MS66 5 step holder.
Regards, Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
From the scans, the 42 D/D is a beautiful high-grade coin. And the steps are obviously there.
My experience is that I can't tell more from the the scans.
And hello Founding Father: By all means use it. I think it's particularly helpful long threads like this because it helps a reader pick out my answer to his or her own question or comment.
Best wishes to both of you,
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
I think you have me confused with someone else regarding the FSNC. I wish I had more time to play, but unfortunately, I don't.
However, I am working on something I think might help the whole hobby as I write this. Hopefully, sometime next year it will be in production phase.
BTW, not to hijack, but did anybody else see the 1966 MS64FS coin David Lawrence is selling in their auction with an "estimated retail value" of $4K?Linkypoo Helps your MS65FS coins 10K price seem reasonable for someone without the funds to play with. Hope this helps!
Steve
U.S. Air Force Security Forces Retired
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
"BTW, not to hijack, but did anybody else see the 1966 MS64FS coin David Lawrence is selling in their auction with an "estimated retail value" of $4K?Linkypoo Helps your MS65FS coins 10K price seem reasonable for someone without the funds to play with. Hope this helps!"
EDITED OUT AS COIN I WAS SPEAKING OF IS HEADING BACK TO AUCTION AGAIN.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
That coin was only coin in the collection with a reserve on it. It was placed in a multi-coin lot before anyone realized which coin it was. It will go up again for auction in the Bowers' Next auction (with no reserve).
<< <i>And here's the reverse! I know this is a trivial question but does anyone want to try and grade this coin? It presently resides in an ANACS MS66 5 step holder. >>
Looking at the new pics linked above, I think it would cross to PCGS as MS65FS. The two hits on the obverse, one in front of the brow and one on the center of the vest, would keep it out of a 66 holder. It's a beautifully struck example, but in all honesty I can't say I love the color.
I don't recall the '42-D as being that tough a date in FS, so why is it that the D/D is so hard to find with them?
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Sure, it's an interesting story but it falls short to what the 1960-D turd was doing to the hobby, PCGS, those who take this series very serious. If the turd C. Cook was presented with had the same dire effect to his fleet or his country, he may have just verily bought it to save the misery it would have or had caused others!
Personally, I would like to see a great turn around in all those who were and have been involved with this coin and the likes of it including all denominations and series but that is impossible. The perodicals will continue printing their storys, the auction houses will still go on selling whatever comes their way the best as they can and the TGS will conyinue grading at a middle ground to please as many custumers as possible.
So where is the solution? I believe it's called coin clubs!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Sure, it's an interesting story but it falls short to what the 1960-D turd was doing to the hobby, PCGS, those who take this series very seriously. If the turd C. Cook was presented with had the same dire effect to his fleet or his country, he may have just verily bought it to save the misery it would have or had caused others! >>
As I related with the story in the other post, I completely understand the motivation to get this coin off the market. I am aware of other astute collectors in other series who have done similar things, but at a smaller price, and in a less public manner.
I disagree. It is very much the point. The 1960-D is in fact a turd on a stick of the same proportion. How many 60-D's were minted? 192,582,180. Comparatively, I would suggest that fewer Tongan turds existed at the time of the infamous offer. But THIS 60-D is the only one with FULL STEPS graded by the BEST grading company!!!! Likewise, I'm sure the enterprising Tongan proffered the turd in an equally tempting manner to the astute Captain Cook. (Would a Captain be gullible enough to place value on this turd if it wasn't indeed special???).
In the end Cook peered into the slab ( woops! I meant gazed at the prize on the stick) and promptly declared a turd a turd. He would not participate nor perpetuate the selling of turds, which I am positive destroyed the value of other Tonqan turds.
Now consider the following two scenarios:
1. The infamous pop 1/0 1963 PR70DC Lincoln Cent. Highest selling point - $40k. I am almost positive the true value of this turd was discussed at length behind closed doors and as well publicly. Such a public stink was created prior to its auction at FUN (I was at the auction), that PCGS's reputation was put on the line. At the very last minute, PCGS had the "opportunity" to step up to the plate and pay for the turd causing four things:
a) preventing the owner from suffering a large market correction; b) preventing another collector from taking it in the shorts; c) removing this blight of a coin from the hobby; and d) internally gut checking themselves against further certifying coins like this (flirting with certifying a "perfect" coin).
2. The infamous pop 1/0 1960-D MS64FS Jefferson nickel. Highest selling point - $32k. In this instance, JHF has taken it upon himself to intervene in this matter as no one forced him to do so. (I don't put any weight on the desire to clean up the market because there were plenty of proof Lincoln collectors that wanted the 1963 coin off the market as well.) So JHF steps up and buys the coin for $10k. What has happened?
a) the owner took a large hit (caused by the Tonqans, no less, who got their money on the front end) and has no recourse; b) JHF has volunteered to be the next one to take it in the shorts at $10k, and keeping the coin in the market for another collector to be taken to the cleaners. (say JHF buries it in his safe until he dies, what is his estate going to do with it? Destroy it? Not likely) c) keeping this blight of a coin in the hobby (it remains on the pop report with claims of legitimacy) d) PCGS is unconcerned because you just cut their exposure down to a managable amount, so they remain neutral on the issue.
So, which set of circumstances was in fact better for the hobby?
Was chest-pounding the motivation to choose the second option?
Comments
And I see you immediately whipped out your metaphorical electron microscope to prove you're not like those silly, stupid full-steppers -- but vastly superior. Relax; you don't have to prove your worth to me. I already do very much respect you.
That's one of the reasons your post bothered me. Because when you gratuitously mock others -- when you rain on their parades -- you're the one that looks bad. And anyway I parse your post, it comes out the same: that you were mocking the full-steppers. The result: you made yourself look like a nasty, thoughtless person, which I don't believe is what you want to project ... which I don't believe you are ... and is not what you deserve.
Now, we all say things meant to be light, funny, or jesting, that unintentionally have teeth that bite. Maybe that's what happened with the post in question. No problem; water under the bridge.
So go and have fun without tearing down other people. That's all I'm saying.
A good place to begin might be to count to ten slowly, and then kill the angry response you started to formulate in your mind. Much better for all of us, especially yourself, if you'd withdraw/edit/kill the post that started this. Then we can both wipe out all the rest of the glop that followed and get back to the real point at hand: the 1960-D. Lao tae khun (up to you).
Business calls: I'll be off line for the rest of the afternoon and much of evening.
I wish you well,
Just Having Fun
<< <i>And anyway I parse your post, it comes out the same: that you were mocking the full-steppers. >>
I think you may be reading more in to it than it actually was. I find it more likely that his comment about microscopes is because he's old and has lousy eyesight.
(Just for the record, most varieties don't do anything for me for the same reason. I can't see them!)
Russ, NCNE
I love collecting Jeffersons (and admiring fantastic collections like Frank's, Leo's, JHF's, and Ray's). Because of my work and home situation, I cannot travel to buy coins. I bought most of my collection sight unseen. When I bought sight unseen, the coins were only in PCGS slabs (no TPG grading service is perfect, but PCGS is by and far superior to the others in my opinion). I paid a lot for the 60-D because it was unique in terms of its certification. When I got the coin, I spent many hours staring at the steps in question; and convinced myself they were full. I never sought the opinion of PCGS.
I sold the collection because of a personal situation. I was not hoping for huge profits on the 60-D (but I did hope to recover most of my investment). Bowers chose to highlight the 60-D in their advertising. I had no input regarding any advertising. I listed about 10 coins that I thought were the highlights of my collection. My interaction with Bowers was positive and I would use them again.
JHF, the 42 D/D is a fantastic coin. I hope it upgrades for you. I sent it in for upgrade (in the holder), and it came back the same grade. I would like to hear of PCGS's opinion of the 60-D if you send it in for review.
There is a question of the 61-D and its steps. Again I felt they were full. If PCGS reviews that coin and removes the full step designation, I would be willing to return my profits on that coin to PCGS if they buy it back. I do not want to profit from a coin that is not properly graded.
My hope is that this controversy will stimulate interest in full steppers and bring more collecters to Jeffersons.
Mark: You are a true gentleman. Your 61(d) in MS64FS in the sale did receive very spirited bidding and sold for a very strong level. But, if PCGS ever decides later that coin is also not a true full stepper, I fail to see how (or why) you should return a penny of the auction proceeds you received for the coin you consigned to that auction at NO RESERVE.
Your comment regarding your buying many of the coins in your collection sight-unseen - I believe this is one area, believe it or not, most classic and modern coin dealers may totally agree - collectors should strongly consider employing the use of a knowledgeable dealer in the series that collector is working on to represent them on the purchase of coins, especially auction coins they are unable to personally lot view. IMHO, it is well worth the 5%-10% typical fee involved (fee on only on those coins actually purchased) for such services.
Wondercoin.
LOL - I had the same thing written to you in my last post ... but I deleted it before posting as being unnecessarily confrontational and lacking in tact.
I stand by my post. It was not directed at you, but rather at those neophytes who might be considering spending money on strike designations. I feel they should know that not all collectors believe that a well struck coin is a 'better' coin. Those that collect beautifully lustrous toned 'pieces of art' would certainly disagree with your assertion.
<< <i>even if you get bad advice sometimes. >>
Russ, NCNE
collector wants only gold or only 15th century British another wants toned or modern. It
really doesn't matter because we're doing this mostly for very selfish reasons whether as
pure collectors or pure speculators. I personally would rather have a standing liberty quar-
ter that had it's head worn off from good honest wear than one that was otherwise gem
but was struck by worn or poorly aligned dies. But there is no "right" answer, there are on-
ly different perspectives and different objectives. Many people are far more concerned with
factors other than strike or absence of marks and even among individuals it will often de-
pend on the specific series or coin.
While many are just happy to see this coin off the market or are greatly concerned with how
easily one can lose money in this hobby, I'm left to ponder just what this coins is really "worth"
in the long run. It's certainly one of the finest of the date whether it's overgraded or not. It
certainly will stand nearly alone on this basis unless it's destroyed and this would seem most
improbable.
bashers of coins would a couple of dollars raw that if in the right holders with tags
that make then worth thousands of dollars.............. yes
and all the modern holder promoters why is this coin not in their private holdings??
<< <i>modern bashers no never
bashers of coins would a couple of dollars raw that if in the right holders with tags
that make then worth thousands of dollars.............. yes
and all the modern holder promoters why is this coin not in their private holdings?? >>
Is it just me or has the quality of bashing sunk to a new low. This crap wouldn't even be worth a response
were it not derailing an otherwise pretty good thread.
This is getting intolerable.
for stealth post
Since when is strike the only important attribute that should add bonus points? What about luster? Beautiful and colorful toning? Eye appeal?
If you have ONE numerical grade, it should include strike (it always used to !!! ... you weren't ever supposed to call a coin GEM in the old days if it wasn't well struck).
Conversely, if you are going to add attributes to the technical grade, why only strike? What about a luster grade, a color grade, and an eye appeal grade?
Why do some series have these silly designations and others do not? What about "full horn" buffs and "full corn" Libs ??
It's all nonsense !!! [hehehe this will provoke heated responses]
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
You too, Russ. And I agree with you aside that ...."most varieties don't do anything for me for the same reason. I can't see them!. I have the same policy; I won't buy a variety I can't see myself. I don't care what the plastic says -- I gotta see it to buy it.
And I love your tag line which I quote: "People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. May I have your permission to post that in my office?
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
In many ways, I share your liability in buying coins: I live in Thailand and I cannot travel to the US auctions where I buy many of my coins. Indeed, to my sorrow, I've never once been able to attend a coin show in the US. I would love to do that and see all the bourse tables myself. And, of course, bid for myself at an auction.
But unable to do that, what I've found the most effective way to buy coins it to ask a dealer to act as my agent. The dealers I work with are knowledgeable in the series I'm interested in. They view the coins for me and give me their judgments.
The two dealers I mostly work with in this manner are notoriously tough on the coins they screen for me. One dealer for instance, recently visited to a venue pretty far away and selected 9 coins that he though would interest me and then killed 7 of them as not good enough for me. And I loved that.
You're right, the PCGS slab is the best, but it's not consistent enough, especially on the designations. I've found paying an agent 10% to screen the coins and bid for me has saved me enormous sums of money. And it's likewise brought home to me some great coins I might have overlooked. The bottom line: When I finally see the coins (sometimes 3 to 5 months later), I'm almost never disappointed.
So you might want to set up a similar arrangement with a dealer you're comfortable with. The guy or gal has to have a good eye and has to be willing to tell you: "No. Stop. You don't want this coin," even though it costs him money (his commission).
Regarding the '60-D, now that I know who owned it and how to reach you, I'll be sure to tell you of PCGS's opinion, when I send it in for review.
Regarding the 1942 D/D, I am soooo happy to hear your comments on it. I haven't seen the coin yet (won't see it until Thursday), but that's exactly what my agent said about it. A great coin.
And I too love collecting Jeffersons and "hope that this contrvery will stimulate interest in full steppers and bring more collectors to Jeffersons."
In the meantime, if you'll pm me where you live, if we happen to be close, let's set up a date one morning and I'll show the collection in person. And I'll show you another Jeff collection I'm having an absolute blast with -- a date collection of Jeff's in off metals. What a thrill you'll get to see a full-step Jeff in MS65 RED!!!
Warm regards, Mark and I hope your home situation clears up so you can resume collection the Jeff's.
Just Having Fun
How much this coin is worth is an interesting question.
I'm not sure you're right though, that this is one of the finest specimens of a 1960-D. It's certainly one of the finest in terms of steps. But for eye-appeal, I'm not so sure. The famous ANACS MS 65 has more steps, and is also a far more attractive coin. I also have an MS66 with only two steps -- and it's a very nice nickel.
How much would the nickel would go for? Only one way to find out. If I get the coin back in an MS64 Not Full Steps holder, maybe I'll put it up for auction to find out. That might be fun!
Thank you Cladking and ...
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
While Jeffs are better defined strike-wise by their steps-- the real problem in my view is with PCGS. A more definative or complete way is needed of saying that a Jeff is fully struck/ full steps, nearly full, or is a sad blob on the reverse. Until there's a slightly more complete way of defining gradation of strike, there could be more market distortion in Registry prices and worse, embarrassing (and expensive) mistakes at PCGS. Without the gradation I'm afraid you run into what we have here which is a coin that's really superior in strike, "ie. 4 3/4 steps but not 5" but which ranks in PCGS's eyes as RELATIVELY better than anything else they've seen so "what the heck--let's call it FS".
I really don't think this is going to hurt Bowers & Merena at all and may even help them with Jefferson Nickel enthusiasts. For one thing, the man who put this 1960-d up for auction, was very satisfied with them and gave them a rave review on this thread.
Moreover, they were the first auction house to give Jefferson Nickels real attention vis-a-vis a full page ad. If you have a beautiful MS 67 1901-S Barber Quarter, it's easy to take a full page ad out to push that. Ditto for an SVDB penny in MS67 Red.
But for a Jefferson Nickel? That took guts and my hat is off to Bowers & Merena for doing it.
Cordially,
Just Having Fun!
I agree with you about the Standing Liberty Quarters. I'm a dedicated Full-head collector but I still look at the full coin. On the 1916 and 1917 Type I, a full nipple is very important to me; far more important than the rivets -- because the nipple is where the eye inevitably goes and to a large extent determines the eye appeal of the coin.
On type 2's, the head dominates the eye appeal. A smoosh head really detracts from the overall attractiveness of a Standing Liberty,. Missing a few rivets doesn't have nearly the same impact.
But when the head is close to full steps and you need to pull out a loupe to make sure whether it is or isn't, then the rivets rule. That's why, if you go to my Standing Liberty Registry set, you'll see several coins in there that are NOT full head (where I have others that are). I simply chose, for purposes of the registry set, the nicest looking coin.
It's the same situation in the Jefferson's. You're right on target there also. The full steps is NOT a perfect indicator of the quality of the nickel. But it's the closest indicator there is.
And you're right that this leads to odd distortions in the market for Jefferson where a beautiful MS67 Jefferson with 4.75 steps will go begging while a plain-Jane MS65 with 5.00 steps will get big bucks behind it.
But the silly distortions not withstanding, I (obviously) do collect them in full steps. One reason, besides the attractiveness, is their difficulty. When I went into Jeffersons (as a spill-over series for my Shield Nickels), I started collecting them without the full steps. But the series without the full steps was tirivial. There was no challenge to it, so it was boring.
Then I bought a few full steppers, I was impressed by the difference in the look. So I began collecting them. The Jeff full steppers IS an enormous challenge that made it good wholesome fun. They still are.
Thanks again and...
Best wishes,
Just Havnig Fun
But then the distortions would still be there so long as the Registry Set listings insisted on 5 full steps. So the problem is really in the Registry Sets. A prorated credit for the steps would go an enormous way to solving the problem, but that's never going to happen.
May I shouldn't say "never." IF ANACS 's new owners bootstrap up that service to a parity with PCGS ... IF they start formulating their own Registry Sets ... AND IF they start giving prorated credits for the steps ... then I think there's a chance that the Jefferson full-stepper collectors will start to migrate over there. And then, PCGS -- which is really a marketing company as much as a grading company -- will respond the only way they can. i.e., by copying them and beginning to prorating credits for the steps.
But the first "IF" is the big one. But this is a subject for another thread. Tune in same time next year and we'll see what happening.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
On a side note and less importantly, having the ability to macro the steps, I played around with them through cropping and pasting out the nicks and bridges, to measure the completeness of the steps against Microsoft's Word paper ruler guide and in a sense, the steps are 94.46% complete!
Also, I would like to mention that there is the lone ANACS MS66 5.50 step 1942-D/horz D EDS example that still exists. Has anyone seen this coin yet?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Aside from the discussion on these (2) 1960(d) Jeffs, the nicest 1960(d) nickel I have ever seen resides in a PCGS-MS65 holder today as part of JHF's collection. Maybe it will achieve a "FS" designation one day.
I also just heard that the 1942 D/D ANACS-MS66 (5 1/2 stepper?) may have been consigned to the Heritage FUN sale taking place next month? If true, that should also be a neat coin to examine!
Wondercoin.
<< <i>How much this coin is worth is an interesting question...
How much would the nickel would go for? Only one way to find out. If I get the coin back in an MS64 Not Full Steps holder, maybe I'll put it up for auction to find out. That might be fun!
Just Having Fun >>
My guess is the coin, if resubmitted, comes back MS62 FS, and is worth approximately $11,212.50, until the next FS 60-D is slabbed.
Michael
I admire your tenacity to get this coin off the market and agree with the rest that this coin should be reviewed...
It's good to hear all the opinions about this coin and also hope the discussion helps this series.
I have an idea to fix your possible problem... you could send me the coin (or the 66 in FS), lets say... as a Christmas present and I'd forever be grateful.
Steve
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
<< <i>Leo: Why do you think Steve Wells chose the "#2" coin to go to ANACS and not "#1" in the first place? And, after PCGS would not slab the "#1" coin as FS, did ANACS also not want to slab "#1" FS either? Just curious.
Wondercoin. >>
Personally, I wouldn't of sent either to any grading company. But just from comparing the two, Steve may have very well believed what Nagengast believed, the #1 coin was the far better coin. The best I can say as to why neither company wanted to certified the #1 coin, they probably didn't want such a slider in a higher MS65 grade. Instead, they made the mistake at the MS64 grade level.
I do not doubt a true FS 1960-D will eventually come along and so with many of the other 1960 to 1970 dates. The coins JHF has, Emzee's coin (very nice by the way), the couple I have, it's just a matter of time.
All it will take is an original nickel roll or bag or quite possibly, another longtime Jefferson nickel collector.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
JHF - A full nipple is also very important to me too......
And I don't collect Standing Liberty Quarters
Stewart
JFH - you go guy! Teach us! We are ignorant to the ways of such genius!
Gosh, if only Lincoln cent collectors had been trying to rid the market of trash for the past decade, our collections would be so much better!
Shock and Awe!!!!!!
Wow: that's a beautiful 60-D. Congratulations and I can see why it's the cornerstone of your collection. Emzee's is a beaut, too. Even though that's not full steps, I'd bet that's one of the 5 best in terms of steps.
Finally, I hope you're right that a true full step 1960-D will eventually come along.
Welcome Emzee! And congratulations on finding that 60-D. Your experience shows that even 4 stepper 1960-D's are incredibly scarce. You searched almost 1,000 coins and 4 stepper "had by far the best step detail."
And congratulations on successfully posting a picture on the thread. I'm determined to learn how myself.
Thank you Full Step Jeffs!
And Steve, aren't you very active in the Full Stepper Nickel club? Or do I have you mixed up with someone else?
Laughing out loud, Stewart Blay, laughing out loud. Those are, how would I put it ... um, er ... yummmmmmy. That's the word. Talking about the coins, of course.
And talking about hot coins, I'm looking forward to seeing your 1894 barber dimes to compare with my 1894-S.
Finally, thank you DMWMR. What I did was solely for my own selfish reasons. If it helps all my fellow full-stepper collectors, so much the better. Neighborhood effect.
Enjoy yourselves, especially Stewart
Just Having Fun
Leo
Oops, sorry!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Verily, where is Dave Bowers when one needs his anecdotes?
I so love the one he relates regarding Captain Cook.
Captain James Cook (1728-1779) was an enthusiastic and obsessive collector of everything. One of his most famous tales of collection involves a Tongan wit trying to sell him a turd on a stick -- a cautionary tale about collecting!
While I completely understand this impulse I must admit that my first thought was ‘too bad he didn’t buy it.’ Can you imagine what we could learn from that turd today? About the human body in the 18th century? About the lives of Pacific Islanders? My second, perhaps more sane, thought was that the person trying to make the sale would seemed to have understood something fundamental to collecting – that it is always in some way about power. Teasing Cook and insulting him with such an offering seems likely to have been an expression of suspicion about (if not out right hostility towards) Cook’s collecting enterprise.
What I like so very much about JHF's story of the 1960-D Jefferson nickel is that it helps me to negotiate my feelings regarding the story of Cook and the Tongan as it relates to modern slab collecting. The charming and funny JHF has delivered a swashbuckling keynote post in which he argues that purchasing the wrongfully slabbed 1960-D full step Jefferson was to "selfishly" remove the blight from the marketplace – particularly "for the good of preserving the hobby of collecting full step Jeffersons." He bemoans the modern day Tongans hyping their turds on a stick, while he gleefully pays ten thousand dollars for an example to the Tongans (or their victims). He mocks the endless bits of paper tabs we are amassing under the PCGS label in favor of the possibilities of a newly arisen ANACS marketing ploy deliniating the degrees of such turds on a stick.
Shall we grade the turd, the stick, or both? One can't yet see through the smoke in the crystal ball. He suggested in the kindest possible language that we get a hold of ourselves and our collecting habits, while the turd is still warm on the stick in his pocket.
I say let PCGS buy their own turd-on-a-stick back. You are only bolstering the Tongans when you buy a 1960-D "full step" jefferson wrongfully slabbed. Do as Cook did and refuse the turd. Don't let the steam from the fresh turd seep through you pockets for all to see.
Even the pomposity of Cook didn't prevent him from gleening the whiff of the turd offered before he declined it. What about you JFH?
And please pass the $10k toilet paper when your are finished. There are a few Lincolns that need wiping from the crack of the Lincoln registry.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
That's a beautiful D/D. And nice clear steps too. Thanks for the tip off. You can bet that I'll be there bidding on it.
Dear Clad King: "Is it just me or has the quality of bashing sunk to a new low. This crap wouldn't even be worth a response were it not derailing an otherwise pretty good thread. This is getting intolerable."
Wow, are you ever right. And they write the same thing, thread after thread, and preen themselves as if they they just had some brilliant new insight. They think they're witty but all they project is that they're nasty, angry, and insecure. Can you imagine having to sit down and have lunch with some of these people? UGGGGH. Doesn't the thought just make you shudder. All I can do is pity them.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
Regards, Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
This coin is from the Micheal Dingledein collection! The Ragsdale's 1954-S PCGS MS67FS coin also came from this collection. I'll keep you posted!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I like the way you bold-face the text of the person you are addressing. I hope you don't mind if I "borrow" that technique.
Heh.
From the scans, the 42 D/D is a beautiful high-grade coin. And the steps are obviously there.
My experience is that I can't tell more from the the scans.
And hello Founding Father: By all means use it. I think it's particularly helpful long threads like this because it helps a reader pick out my answer to his or her own question or comment.
Best wishes to both of you,
Just Having Fun
I think you have me confused with someone else regarding the FSNC. I wish I had more time to play, but unfortunately, I don't.
However, I am working on something I think might help the whole hobby as I write this. Hopefully, sometime next year it will be in production phase.
BTW, not to hijack, but did anybody else see the 1966 MS64FS coin David Lawrence is selling in their auction with an "estimated retail value" of $4K?Linkypoo Helps your MS65FS coins 10K price seem reasonable for someone without the funds to play with. Hope this helps!
Steve
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
<< <i>DMWJR,
Heh. >>
I love that story!
EDITED OUT AS COIN I WAS SPEAKING OF IS HEADING BACK TO AUCTION AGAIN.
Wondercoin
That coin was only coin in the collection with a reserve on it. It was placed in a multi-coin lot before anyone realized which coin it was. It will go up again for auction in the Bowers' Next auction (with no reserve).
<< <i>Dear Leo the Lyon:
From the scans, the 42 D/D is a beautiful high-grade coin. And the steps are obviously there
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>And here's the reverse! I know this is a trivial question but does anyone want to try and grade this coin? It presently resides in an ANACS MS66 5 step holder.
>>
Looking at the new pics linked above, I think it would cross to PCGS as MS65FS. The two hits on the obverse, one in front of the brow and one on the center of the vest, would keep it out of a 66 holder. It's a beautifully struck example, but in all honesty I can't say I love the color.
I don't recall the '42-D as being that tough a date in FS, so why is it that the D/D is so hard to find with them?
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>
<< <i>DMWJR,
Heh. >>
I love that story!
Sure, it's an interesting story but it falls short to what the 1960-D turd was doing to the hobby, PCGS, those who take this series very serious.
If the turd C. Cook was presented with had the same dire effect to his fleet or his country, he may have just verily bought it to save the misery it would have or had caused others!
Personally, I would like to see a great turn around in all those who were and have been involved with this coin and the likes of it including all denominations and series but that is impossible. The perodicals will continue printing their storys, the auction houses will still go on selling whatever comes their way the best as they can and the TGS will conyinue grading at a middle ground to please as many custumers as possible.
So where is the solution? I believe it's called coin clubs!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I believe that is a "struck thru" up by TRUST. I'd write more but need to run an errand and eat.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
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<< <i>DMWJR,
Heh. >>
I love that story!
Sure, it's an interesting story but it falls short to what the 1960-D turd was doing to the hobby, PCGS, those who take this series very seriously.
If the turd C. Cook was presented with had the same dire effect to his fleet or his country, he may have just verily bought it to save the misery it would have or had caused others! >>
As I related with the story in the other post, I completely understand the motivation to get this coin off the market. I am aware of other astute collectors in other series who have done similar things, but at a smaller price, and in a less public manner.
I disagree. It is very much the point. The 1960-D is in fact a turd on a stick of the same proportion. How many 60-D's were minted? 192,582,180. Comparatively, I would suggest that fewer Tongan turds existed at the time of the infamous offer. But THIS 60-D is the only one with FULL STEPS graded by the BEST grading company!!!! Likewise, I'm sure the enterprising Tongan proffered the turd in an equally tempting manner to the astute Captain Cook. (Would a Captain be gullible enough to place value on this turd if it wasn't indeed special???).
In the end Cook peered into the slab ( woops! I meant gazed at the prize on the stick) and promptly declared a turd a turd. He would not participate nor perpetuate the selling of turds, which I am positive destroyed the value of other Tonqan turds.
Now consider the following two scenarios:
1. The infamous pop 1/0 1963 PR70DC Lincoln Cent. Highest selling point - $40k. I am almost positive the true value of this turd was discussed at length behind closed doors and as well publicly. Such a public stink was created prior to its auction at FUN (I was at the auction), that PCGS's reputation was put on the line. At the very last minute, PCGS had the "opportunity" to step up to the plate and pay for the turd causing four things:
a) preventing the owner from suffering a large market correction;
b) preventing another collector from taking it in the shorts;
c) removing this blight of a coin from the hobby; and
d) internally gut checking themselves against further certifying coins like this (flirting with certifying a "perfect" coin).
2. The infamous pop 1/0 1960-D MS64FS Jefferson nickel. Highest selling point - $32k. In this instance, JHF has taken it upon himself to intervene in this matter as no one forced him to do so. (I don't put any weight on the desire to clean up the market because there were plenty of proof Lincoln collectors that wanted the 1963 coin off the market as well.) So JHF steps up and buys the coin for $10k. What has happened?
a) the owner took a large hit (caused by the Tonqans, no less, who got their money on the front end) and has no recourse;
b) JHF has volunteered to be the next one to take it in the shorts at $10k, and keeping the coin in the market for another collector to be taken to the cleaners. (say JHF buries it in his safe until he dies, what is his estate going to do with it? Destroy it? Not likely)
c) keeping this blight of a coin in the hobby (it remains on the pop report with claims of legitimacy)
d) PCGS is unconcerned because you just cut their exposure down to a managable amount, so they remain neutral on the issue.
So, which set of circumstances was in fact better for the hobby?
Was chest-pounding the motivation to choose the second option?