<< <i>My premise that you can tell dogs in a photo still stands. You can. >>
You cannot tell if a coin is a dog if the seller images and/or edits it in such a way as to hide the flaws. Clearly, Ralph did not do so. In fact, his images make the condition of the coin very obvious. That fact alone clearly indicates that there was no attempt to deceive.
My label of "Senior Member" is default. Heck I've only posted around 300 times.
Yes, I felt roadrunner's comments were an unwarranted attack, but I hold no grudge - he has an opinion (as do alot of other member - see posts above ). We made our peace - I hope. In my auction, all I did was make use of SEGS opinion. To be honest, both eBay and coin collecting are similar in the fact that if you like it buy/bid if you don't -- then don't. When I bought the coin I liked it -- I still do, but I like my new S2000 better
The 20% thing - yes that is outrageous - It is an alternative to "no return." I'm not a business this is not a "restocking fee" it's lost money for me. Sorry if some of you don't like it -- as mentioned, protest by NOT bidding. I'm OK with that. Where is it written that coins must have a return policy. What was your return policy on your last used car or item off the clearance rack of your local electronics store?
I don't want to be confrontational about any of the issues raised. So I'll leave everyone to their opinions, and to those who bid - thanks, and to those that don't - I'm sure you made the right decision for you.
While I have already answered the question RR posted. this thread raises some interesting points.
Roadrunner, I think is doing a great service to the hobby pointing out what he considers to be a incorrectly graded coin in a 3rd tier slab but it is at detriment to the seller(IMHO). Whether or not the ends justify the means is mox nix at this point to me….
So a recap, 3rd tier slab grade is the same as the personal opinion (educated or not ) given in this auction and more experienced collectors are disagreeing with both vocally.
Very few people state a personal grade(downward) when a coin is slabbed and for sale, can probably count them on one hand. Most only taut personal opinions when the coin has been “undergraded”.Should this be ethically obligatory whether it’s a 3rd tier slab or a top tier slab, especially when the seller is very experienced in the series?
How often do we see top tier slabbed coins over graded? Should we all be obligated to express personal opinions at time of sale when they differ downward? Are any of us guilty of selling a NGC or PCGS 63 that we felt was a 58 and didn’t express an opinion (solicited or not)when we sold it at 63 money? Is it ok to do this in certain brands of plastic? Anyone…Bueller?
I think the root of this is in how much we as a hobby rely upon the grading services to “give us the collector, a grade” . In this instance (55 DDO) we are talking about SEGS slab,quite few points off that results in some big dollar differences in value and has caused quite a stir. On the other hand, hows about when one point equals big dollars in a top tier slab, is there a difference between these two examples? Are we obligated in both scenarios?
Now I am off to see a man about a horse, nah, actually a coin that has been hyped up to be “so original, gosh, golly, gee, Scott, you would not believe how original this one is…”
Ralph did a good job with his auction and I see no reason this thread was started. In fact I like how he handled this- with class. I am going to keep an eye on his ebay stuff from now on. mike
I see no wrong doing in regards to the way Ralph presents the auction. He "clearly" states his opinion along with great untouched photos.
If he wishes to use the 20% restocking fee, so be it, its his choice.
If RR wishes to police he should go after the ebay sellers that are outright thieves that sell the fake 16-D's, 09-S VDB's, the self-slabbers, etc. etc. etc., theres many to choose from out there.
Personally I dont see what the SELLER did wrong. he put pretty good pics in his auction, identified the coin as being in SEGS holder, and rendered his OPINION. Sometimes people are a little too quick to accuse someone of doing wrong. I don't see any attempt at deception on the part of the seller. JMHO
Roadrunner is a well respected contributer to these boards at all times. I always read his posts and will continue to do so ,as I always learn something new. He is stating his opinion on this auction without calling out the seller until someone else did. The seller did state that he thought the coin was a 63, and most here , from what I have read do not agree. I really do not see what all the fuss is about. Both persons offered opinions on the coin in question. I tell all my ballplayers one thing consistently, "opinions are like a$$holes, every one has one and most of them stink.
<< <i>Roadrunner is a well respected contributer to these boards at all times. I always read his posts and will continue to do so ,as I always learn something new. He is stating his opinion on this auction without calling out the seller until someone else did. The seller did state that he thought the coin was a 63, and most here , from what I have read do not agree. I really do not see what all the fuss is about. Both persons offered opinions on the coin in question. I tell all my ballplayers one thing consistently, "opinions are like a$$holes, every one has one and most of them stink. >>
What has that got to do with anything? Why is it so hard to stick to answering RR's question? Was he wrong to call out a bst seller in the bst seller's thread or not? It's not about opinions of the coin. It's about how/where he expressed his opinion. That's his question. Geez. Concentrate.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>He is stating his opinion on this auction without calling out the seller until someone else did. >>
Goose noted that it would take about two minutes to find out who the seller was. He was wrong. It took about 30 seconds, so RR not "calling out the seller" is a load of crap.
I looked at the Ebay listing for some time, and I feel there is nothing wrong with it. The description appears to me to be straight-forward, even beyond what would be needed to simply be proper.
From the nice large pictures I doubt the coin is MS, so the seller and I disagree on the grade. We all have a right to our opinions. What grading skills can you expect from a seller that carves up nickels?
In my opinion a restocking fee simply means NO RETURNS. I almost always pass up Ebay lots with NO RETURNS.
In answer to the thread question, Yes, I think it was wrong to call out the seller on this Ebay listing. Ralph did nothing wrong whatsoever, and he acted like a gentleman with his responses to an attack on him.
The $1000 offer is after the fact since the reserve was already met yesterday.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
Yeah ... VERY wrong IMO Roadrunner. What a load of cra***
There is a lot of hyperbole and BS on eBay, but Ralph's auction is NOT one of them. There is NO HYPE.
Okay it's a "third-world" slab. He states that clearly. He goes beyond that to mention that this company is NOT as trusted as the big boys. He doesn't key-word spam the title. He states he sees no reason the coin isn't MS or even MS63, which, while an opinion, he is entitiled to. Again no hype there. His opinion may or may not be an accurate one (without the coin in hand it is hard to tell, although I have seen worse in low MS holders from the big boys). Oh, and he gives accurate, unmolested photos ... something that can fuel educated arguement for the grade.
20% restocking fee. I love it! It says to me simply, here's everything I've got on the coin ... you bid, you buy ... unless you have such a case of buyers remorse that you must return it ... then you can pay for your mistake and I'll endure this all again.
Back to the question ... VERY wrong to publically flog a fellow collector for selling a coin and making an fair case of it, WITHOUT hyping it.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
I believe Roadrunner worded the thread a bit strongly. I do not believe Ralph hyped it as the real thing, but I agree that there are serious issues with this auction...
The description of the coin and clear photographs do not indicate to me Ralph is being overtly deceptive, the holder does the dirty work for him.
IMHO, that coin is not a MS 63. If it were, Ralph would have sent it to PCGS or NGC and the coin would have sold for even more money. Unfortunately, Ralph will profit from some noob collector very nicely either way as the return fee is ridiculous.
Ralph, how do you justify such a return fee? Why didn't you take Roadrunner's offer to make $1k?
I hope you sleep well at night...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
This is a very difficult/uncomfortable post for me.
On one hand, I believe that Roadrunner is one of the really good guys and easily among the sharpest, most experienced and knowledgeable, coin-savvy posters on the forum. I also believe that he posts without an agenda and shares his honest and helpful/informative opinions, asking/expecting nothing in return. If I had to choose one forum member's opinion upon which to rely with respect to grading/evaluating a coin (from either an image or in person) his name would be on a very short list.
On the other hand, I saw nothing "wrong" with Ralph's listing. Perhaps equally or even more importantly, I am extremely impressed with and respectful of the way he has handled himself and replied to posters to this thread. He did not sound defensive or angry and he did not attack anyone. If only all posters (whether in his position or not) were so well behaved and gentlemanly.
The above considerations aside, I believe that the best course of action, if any, would have been for Roadrunner to have PM'd his opinions/concerns to Ralph.
In my mind, whatever one thinks of the coin in question vs. the assigned grade or vs. Ralph's opinion of it, one important point raised, is that a seller can just as easily mislead/misinform someone unintentionally, as he can intentionally.
I am NOT saying that is what happened here. But, if a non-expert gives an honest opinion and it is off the mark, it can have the same impact as if an expert purposely gives a dishonest opinion. Either way, a would-be buyer gets the same (bad) information. I frequently see that here on the forum, where posters give (grade or other type) opinions of coins which are way off the mark. Though well intentioned, they can easily mislead others who don't know better.
I don't want to put words into anyone's mouth. But I believe that (right or wrong) Roadrunner thought Ralph was giving an uninformed/non-expert opinion regarding the coin's quality and its possibility of crossing. And, that in this case, it was just as bad/wrong as if Ralph knew better and was doing so intentionally. That is just my personal interpretation of what I read.
I think two very good people are involved here. If, under the circumstances, they can get along, the rest of this thread's participants should be willing and able to do the same.
Ralph is cool...I have more respect for him now than many others in this forum. While Ralph, after further discussion back and forth, meant to deceit, my intial "scammer" ears were tweaked when I read the auction fully. I did not know him before hand. His first reply to my private PM was basically "it's none of your business, and it your comments were not appreciated." Had I known it was his grading skills rather than looking for prey that caused the problem it would never have made it to the open forum. It wasn't until 15 minutes later, when he replied again to my open forum post that I realized he just didn't know. But I had already sort of blew a gasket. Then one of our other illustrious members linked it up within minutes.
I'm glad Russ can do his research in 30 seconds. I'm not as good with a computer. You guys went looking for a tussle and found it. It's why I dont' bother much with the Open Forum.
I am apologetic for any harm I may have caused Ralph. but for the looks of the replies he has gained prestige at my expense. Well Done Ralph. You held your head much higher than I. My comments on the coin of course still apply. And thanks to those who responded by PM to say I agree...the coin is a mess. Are those guys blind. I have a big problem with our hobby on TPG grading and 3rd tier slabs as well. TDN and I agree, you can easily rule out a coin by a photo. If you don't have that skill, please don't comment that everyone else is wrong. Those same people cannot grade a coin that well in hand either. Grading is connected to how our brains work. Not all are the same. Not everyone gets it or can even learn it. I know several big big dealers who cannot grade. They admit it freely but can perceive eye appeal. Their brains however do not do well in counting marks, lines and other issues. I cannot explain it except to say, it happens. Not all of us can grade the same.
Another one of my axioms: if you say it, it's not an opinion it's actually a statemen of warranty to some extent. I hold people to their words. I expect to be held to my words of "warranty." It has cost me tens of thousands of $$ in my life but that's what I live by. If you deal with me, know that my word is my bond. If I bring a trashy AT coin to the open forum (and say I think it's ok), I fully expect to be called out to those that do. If I sell a collector a coin I said was not AT, and a year later it gets bagged, I own it again, and full price + interest. So when you deal with me, that's what you get. But I shy away from public deals because it's not worth the hassle. I deal 99% with dealers where the transaction is final. I can opinionize all I want and they too. But once the cash changes hands the deal is done. Period. Unless for authenticity or something. I will not crawl back to them if I bought an AT coin, unless we discussed those terms up front initially. And I don't expect a dealer to come back later and say it only graded MS64, not MS65. I am in the vast minority about the "opinions = "warranty." I have taken on dozens or hundreds of dealers over the years. I cannot be everywhere. I do try to do things tastefully. If you don't like to deal or sell with someone who will hold you to your opinions and comments....you don't want to deal with me, or people like me.
I gave my own brother a stock tip on my company after the stock plunged. I thought for sure I knew something about how we did our total business. What I didnt' know was about the deep financial issues in areas outside our core business. We went ch 11 and I lost $50,000 in the 401K and he lost $5000 on the stock he bought. It was my blunder. I made it good to him on my own a year later and paid interest to boot ($6000). You stand behind your word, your opinions and the "warranty" they represent. You live or die by your words or opinions.
Let's keep the hype and puffery on ebay. If you don't know for certain don't comment. This is our home (the forum). If you're selling to members give them more courtesy than you would others. Dont' comment on what you may not know. If you're not sure, then don't comment. If you see me violating this please let me know and slap me upside the head.
The $1000 offer stands. The auction could have been pulled at any time for any good reason by Ralph. My comments here could have been perceived as interference. He could ask me to buy the coin outright. Meeting the reserve price was a non-issue. My offer was fair, real, honest, and legitimate.
To those that think this could be a mint state coin. Better get back to the ANA seminar as soon as you can. You have work to do. I have 30 years of making mistakes to say such a thing. It's impossible to verify a PQ coin from a photo but it is easy to spot a lower end coin or a misgrade. Ralph's photos were superb and imo left nothing to the imagination on what this coin was.
Sorry Ralph for any inconvenience. I should have pursued this further in PM's. It could have been handled via PM but I jumped the gun after the first response when I felt you replied as if I was questioning your skills, rather than your integrity. Next time I will be much slower to post...as I normally try to be. But, I did not just bolt to the coin forum as soon as the BST listing showed up. I know better. And some of the chuckle-heads that live know how to stir the pot and do so at every opportunity. I am usually unbearably fair in what I do....to a fault...and often to my own loss. I can stand behind by words and live up to them....better than most.
Now let this thread die....or I'll threaten to edit it all.
Roadrunner, well said. I've read many of your posts and have always found you to be a stand up guy, knowlegeable and helpful. I would say this to any buyer, if you are willing to shell out this kind of money for a collectible then you should know what you are doing or consult someone who does. There is responsibility on both sides of any contract, especially at this price level.
I don't think either Ralph or roadrunner deserves some of the snide comments or does either one deserve to be jumped on. Both seem like good guys to me. As always just my opinion.
roadrunner, your tops in my book as well. It would take a lot more than a thread like this for you to lose respect with me or others on this forum. mike
Well said Mark. I mistakenly assumed Ralph was puffing something that was just not honest. It turned out to be he really thought it was a MS63 coin. That's ok. But someone, in this case, an 18 FB newbie, is getting taken to lunch. Someone has to lose.
I had great problems with how our hobby works, esp with grading services. 90% of the collectors and newbs get scammed and lose money. I hate this to death. But I'll fight to the death trying to keep it from happening. There are thousands of dealers, collectors, etc. who are screwing collectors/investors and other dealers. There are FAR more bad deals out there than good ones. It's a very tough thing to live with never mind being the cop to ferret out all the corruption. To those that PM me, they know I pull no punches, even with the biggest dealers. If you are afraid of what I might say in private to you, don't ask the question. I will speak what I think the truth is the best I can.
I used to say that 90% of the sellers in this business are crooked. Or have no idea what they are doing and the end result is the same. Mark stated that much better already. That % could be higher or lower today....I won't comment.
In the days of pre-slabbing I returned >90% of all coins from CW advertisers. I obviously lost faith after years of trying. That number could be higher or lower today. Back then, most of the market were crooks, scheister, or totally vacuuous sellers. It was the wild west....it is forever imprinted on my psyche. This I cannot change. I am not Captain Coindogooder. I just try to make a difference
My motto: no one, not even a first time buying newbie, should lose money on a coin. I do what I can to pass the word and give out help. I lose money on coins all the time...but I'm swimming with the sharks on my own free will and know the rules. If I get bit, shame on me. I get lots of shame believe me. But I do make money on others as well. I have to wonder how bad the newbies are getting it. But I know what the answer is. Yeah, it's a hobby, but gosh darn it, you shouldn't have to lose money dabbling in it...or at least not lose because you were taken. If you choose to toss the money and know you're being cheated, I can't help that.
By the way, I had a friend who owned those Shell President's coins in the 1970's. Took them to a local dealer who said "you can burn those buster." My friend was crushed. From what I hear, those might be worth something today....go figure. But then again I didnt' think at the time they were worth much either.
I will be the first to agree I have no real grading skills and prehaps my agreement with SEGS can be interpeted as a "professional" opinion. It was not ment to decieve. My first PM to roadrunner was slightly harsh because I was on the defensive about his comments on the BST forum. Sorry RR.
As always, I have learned from this forum (although I still prefer the lurking method).
I too say -- let this thread die and take what you can from it.
Ralph, I'm cool with it all. I deserve some criticism.
But if you need any help in furthering your purchases or sales I'm happy to assist free of charge. I won't sell you anything but only promise to do my best so that you get your money's worth if that is your intention. Many here do not care what they pay for things. That's cool too. PM me any time. Whatever you say will of course be held in confidence.....though let's face it....HRH probably reads all my PM's and is sending out speeding tickets to all the sellers I've made comments on.
Imagine what our PM's would do if they fell into the wrong hand. Holy moly. Michael, you'd be toast!
Interfering with his bst thread could have or did cause Ralph financial harm, because of an opinion. Haven't been here long enough to know: when did it become OK to post harmful comments to another person's bst thread? No rules, no protocols? Nothing gained here if it's still open season for this kind of stuff. Seems unbecoming somehow.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
I thought that Ralph's listing was quite fair. It is up to the BUYER to consider the info and photos. and not rely on the seller's opinion or hype. If the photos are not sufficient, ask for more. If still not sufficient and the BUYER doesn't have confidence in SEGS, then DON'T BID! IMHO Gary
roadrunner you are a top notch honest for the hobby and beyond type person , you tell it like it is and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this! if people on this board cant see this ,something is wrong with them. keep up your honesty your great for the hobby and all the people of this great forum! ed
<< Interfering with his bst thread could have or did cause Ralph financial harm, because of an opinion.>>
The buyer (a member here) has backed out of the purchase. (Not that I can blame him after this thread.) This was done in a mutual agreement and I have no hard feelings toward the Buyer. No I didn't charge him 20% for those of you who may like to stir the pot
Anyone who doesn’t think that the comments here don't significantly affect people are wrong. I can't stop people from having there opinions - nor would I want to. I have had a series of unfortunate events related to coin collecting that has left me rather disenchanted, and I am sorry a newly revived boyhood fascination has become what it seems to be.
For now I guess I'll keep the coin. Who knows maybe I'll have one hell of a giveaway, or maybe I'll sneak it back on eBay when no one is looking.
I can't say I'm not disappointed in the circumstances, but is not like this will have me taking the kids Christmas toys back.
I guess I'll just stick to checking my pocket change for 82 NO P dimes for awhile.
As for the rest of it all, I'd like to say: I know RR personally and always thought he's a very good guy; I would not bid on the auction in question (but do like the blonde in that other auction); I think Ralph maintained his public composure exceptionally well; and, RR should change the title and intro post to something that will dissuade folks from reading.
Perhaps the new title/thread can be about the Shriver commem or R-ratings of 1998-P Jefferson 5c die marriages.
<< <i>I have had a series of unfortunate events related to coin collecting that has left me rather disenchanted, and I am sorry a newly revived boyhood fascination has become what it seems to be. >>
Ralph,
I am sorry to hear of your disenchantment. You should be applauded for your responses in this thread, and for letting the buyer out of his bid.
However, by relisting the coin with the same terms, slab, and description you would be only spreading your disenchantment to others. I hope you consider those words if and when you chose to sell it, and offer fairer terms and a more informed opinion.
Take care...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
Thought about doing this PM, or erasing my comments. Since it's still on the front page though, I'll say it here.
I rarely (ever?) reply to such posts, but I did on this one. Not really sure why.
RR; I respect from his posts, and read and learn from in that way, but I don't know him yet. I was surprised that it was him. I never did see the BST post, but after looking at the eBay post I didn't take it as a misrepresentation. On further thought I can see how it could be. Sometimes I forget the guilability of the newbie ... and I too hate the BS that goes on in this great hobby ... especially targeted at the un (or under) informed.
Ralph I also don't know, but he carves a mean nickel. And based on his responses, he holds up well under the flame.
I too believe I can grade pretty well from a picture, and do not think the coin is MS. Lincoln's are not a specialty of mine anyway, so that comment is worthless. Yet I have held coins from the top two that are dogs, I have owned 63's from both services that were borderline 58's (should have been 55's probably). In that I did not think (nor do I still) that Ralph's comment was HYPE.
The comment about my "loving" the 20% restocking fee was OT. Which is why, I (at least for one) should have just moved on quietly.
I'll shut up now.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Ralph, you have been way too nice. RR IMO is way out of line.
Those that have a problem with Ralph's auction, have you looked at many eBay auctions? Ralph has done absolutely nothing wrong and IMO went above the call of duty by mentioning that not all TPG's are looked at in the same light.
Coin collecting/buying has reached much farther and operates differently than some may be used to and/or operates differently than some may want it to.
Get over it and get used to it. That doesn't mean that I condone people getting ripped off but more often than not, the ones getting ripped off had greed as their guiding principle. Unfortunately, it is a lesson most have to learn the hard way.
Regardless of RR's thoughts about the merits of this coin as an MS or not, I believe it stands a fair chance at making it into a PCGS MS holder. Not a 63 mind you, but perhaps a 61 or 62. Even if it "should" be in an AU-58 holder. Could go either way, IMO, 50-50. So in that sense no, were I interested in it, I wouldn't want to pay 63 money.
It's also likely we'll never find out, unless the seller decides to take RR up on his offer.
Ralph did a fine thing to let the winner out of his winning bid. The alternative was to make him keep the coin or fight over a $400 restock fee.
My offer still stands on this coin making it to MS60 ($500) or MS63 ($1000). It's a way out for Ralph to be compensated for his not making money on this coin. And because DDO's have advanced so strongly the past 2 years it would be a crime that any collector holding one for more than 6 months didn't profit from it. If Coinguy1 will oblige I'm good to go. I'll let it go 5X to PCGS if you like. I'll pay 5 grading fees. It would be a good data point to the forum. Esp. with noting how consistent PCGS is. My gift to the forum and Ralph. After 5X I think we'll have a consensus on the coin. They're still going up so it will only be worth more in a few months. If it goes UNC Ralph will get bailed out. If not, we'll know more about PCGS consistency one way or the other, esp on such a commonly submitted coin as a Lincoln cent.
To my detractors, try to sell some of your 3rd tier slabs out in the open market and see what you get before you burn the witch or shoot the messenger. The market has many issues with grading. And until one sells consistently, you just don't know. Buying is easy. We can all do that. Go try to sell to dealers, not to newbie ebayers. Take the real test and try to buy and sell on the bourse among dealers...raw and slabbed. There's proof in that pudding. Do not wait 1 or 2 or 5 or 10 years to sell your first coin.
Thanks EVP and Mad4Morgans....I implemented your suggestions.
I guess the parade will continue until every forum member, there are only 19,000 of them, gets to respond. Most of my posts are ignored except for a few people. I've always wondered, why can't I get a 100-200 post thread? An interesting statement on the forum that a post like this gets this type of response. If you wish for it you just might get it.
I am intrigued by your offer. More from the educational standpoint it offers than from your offered compensation.
I am always eager to learn and quite curious. As an education to the forum, I think the experiment you have presented would be quite interesting. It would allow a comparison of SEGS to PCGS and allow for a gauge of consistency from PCGS.
The worst case scenario is that I end up with the same coin, which I actually like, just with different plastic around it.
If you are sincere in your offer, I will take you up on it. PM me with the details.
Thanks, Ralph
P.S. something this interesting is sure to get you a 100-200 post thread
You got it Ralph. PM to follow. I've always wanted to toss in a $100-200 (with some other people) and do a REAL study on a group of coins sent in time and time again to both services. But doing this just with PCGS will serve a similar purpose. I just didn't want to be the ONLY guy donating or I'd have done something like this long ago.
If you want to go with NGC after PCGS for another 5X you'll have to find different contributors.
We can post the results down the road. But I would assume if you get a MS61 on the 3rd try you'll probably not want to crack it out and try 2 more times to see how it does on #4 and #5. And I can understand that.
Do you think HRH would be ok with posting unfavorable results if that should be how it turns out? What if the coin came back 50, 58, 55, 53, 61? Would that be something PCGS would want published here? And on Ralph's side what if the coin came back counterfeit or no grade? That could be a problem also. There are always risks with 3rd tier slabs and no guarantees.
Late add: we have a submitter so the game is on. Now we just wait for the result.
Come on, only 1 more post to 100. I don't want all this pain to be for nought. And no prizes or free grading fees for the #100 poster.
It will be fun, and potentially expensive (lol). I've often offered "free" $20 saints (vs. their cash) to anyone in the past that would take me up on my silly bets. Ralph finally did. Might be last!
<< <i>I guess the parade will continue until every forum member, there are only 19,000 of them, gets to respond. Most of my posts are ignored except for a few people. I've always wondered, why can't I get a 100-200 post thread? An interesting statement on the forum that a post like this gets this type of response. If you wish for it you just might get it.
roadrunner >>
Now that I'm chiming in, we're down to 18,999
IMO, this forum is all about communication; I have found this particular thread very illuminating.
I would bore you all to death by writing about all of the thoughts and feelings that this subject evokes in me, so I won't.
All I will say is that there are two folks that I believe to have handled themselves very well and appear to have come to an
adequate solution for both of them. I have respected RR's posts since coming here recently and appreciate very much his point of view,
both here and in other threads. I have been amazed and delighted with the aplomb with which Ralph has handled this issue. Kudos to both-
IMO you both have defensible points of view. CU forum members seem to me to be mostly numismatic purists - they (perhaps we if I am accepted as such)
are disturbed at the commercial impurities of the coin business. I don't know that this is new, but it is certainly exacerbated by the advent of both the
TPG's and the internet. OTOH, Ebay is a selling venue, with the intent of most of the participants to maximize profits. Most believe that such maximization should
be done as fairly and honestly as possible; unfortunately, many do not - they will say or do anything in order to sell.
It's a fine line, this yin/yang thing. It's not going away anytime soon, and it deserves to continue to be addressed. I suspect that the subject will be addressed
here more often than on Ebay, primarily because the purists are mostly here.
Good luck, gentlemen - I have grow to respect you both.
Comments
<< <i>My premise that you can tell dogs in a photo still stands. You can. >>
You cannot tell if a coin is a dog if the seller images and/or edits it in such a way as to hide the flaws. Clearly, Ralph did not do so. In fact, his images make the condition of the coin very obvious. That fact alone clearly indicates that there was no attempt to deceive.
Russ, NCNE
Couple of comments:
My label of "Senior Member" is default. Heck I've only posted around 300 times.
Yes, I felt roadrunner's comments were an unwarranted attack, but I hold no grudge - he has an opinion (as do alot of other member - see posts above
The 20% thing - yes that is outrageous - It is an alternative to "no return." I'm not a business this is not a "restocking fee" it's lost money for me. Sorry if some of you don't like it -- as mentioned, protest by NOT bidding. I'm OK with that. Where is it written that coins must have a return policy. What was your return policy on your last used car or item off the clearance rack of your local electronics store?
I don't want to be confrontational about any of the issues raised. So I'll leave everyone to their opinions, and to those who bid - thanks, and to those that don't - I'm sure you made the right decision for you.
Thanks, Ralph
Edited for spelling
Roadrunner, I think is doing a great service to the hobby pointing out what he considers to be a incorrectly graded coin in a 3rd tier slab but it is at detriment to the seller(IMHO). Whether or not the ends justify the means is mox nix at this point to me….
So a recap, 3rd tier slab grade is the same as the personal opinion (educated or not ) given in this auction and more experienced collectors are disagreeing with both vocally.
Very few people state a personal grade(downward) when a coin is slabbed and for sale, can probably count them on one hand. Most only taut personal opinions when the coin has been “undergraded”.Should this be ethically obligatory whether it’s a 3rd tier slab or a top tier slab, especially when the seller is very experienced in the series?
How often do we see top tier slabbed coins over graded? Should we all be obligated to express personal opinions at time of sale when they differ downward? Are any of us guilty of selling a NGC or PCGS 63 that we felt was a 58 and didn’t express an opinion (solicited or not)when we sold it at 63 money? Is it ok to do this in certain brands of plastic? Anyone…Bueller?
I think the root of this is in how much we as a hobby rely upon the grading services to “give us the collector, a grade” . In this instance (55 DDO) we are talking about SEGS slab,quite few points off that results in some big dollar differences in value and has caused quite a stir. On the other hand, hows about when one point equals big dollars in a top tier slab, is there a difference between these two examples? Are we obligated in both scenarios?
Now I am off to see a man about a horse, nah, actually a coin that has been hyped up to be “so original, gosh, golly, gee, Scott, you would not believe how original this one is…”
opinion along with great untouched photos.
If he wishes to use the 20% restocking fee, so be it, its his choice.
If RR wishes to police he should go after the ebay sellers that are outright thieves that
sell the fake 16-D's, 09-S VDB's, the self-slabbers, etc. etc. etc., theres many to choose from out there.
Just my humble opinion.
I always read his posts and will continue to do so ,as I always learn something new.
He is stating his opinion on this auction without calling out the seller until someone else did.
The seller did state that he thought the coin was a 63, and most here , from what I have
read do not agree. I really do not see what all the fuss is about. Both persons offered opinions on the coin
in question. I tell all my ballplayers one thing consistently, "opinions are like a$$holes, every one has one and
most of them stink.
Rainbow Stars
<< <i>Roadrunner is a well respected contributer to these boards at all times.
I always read his posts and will continue to do so ,as I always learn something new.
He is stating his opinion on this auction without calling out the seller until someone else did.
The seller did state that he thought the coin was a 63, and most here , from what I have
read do not agree. I really do not see what all the fuss is about. Both persons offered opinions on the coin
in question. I tell all my ballplayers one thing consistently, "opinions are like a$$holes, every one has one and
most of them stink. >>
What has that got to do with anything? Why is it so hard to stick to answering RR's question? Was he wrong to call out a bst seller in the bst seller's thread or not? It's not about opinions of the coin. It's about how/where he expressed his opinion. That's his question. Geez. Concentrate.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>He is stating his opinion on this auction without calling out the seller until someone else did. >>
Goose noted that it would take about two minutes to find out who the seller was. He was wrong. It took about 30 seconds, so RR not "calling out the seller" is a load of crap.
Russ, NCNE
From the nice large pictures I doubt the coin is MS, so the seller and I disagree on the grade. We all have a right to our opinions. What grading skills can you expect from a seller that carves up nickels?
In my opinion a restocking fee simply means NO RETURNS. I almost always pass up Ebay lots with NO RETURNS.
In answer to the thread question, Yes, I think it was wrong to call out the seller on this Ebay listing. Ralph did nothing wrong whatsoever, and he acted like a gentleman with his responses to an attack on him.
The $1000 offer is after the fact since the reserve was already met yesterday.
<< <i>They said it was none of my business to comment negatively. >>
That's bull. It's in the public domain now. Out them.
OK, so I just read further and saw the auction was posted
Coin doesn't look too bad to me. I 'd pay strong AU58 money for it. Not a 63 IMO.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
Um, It's me. ebay ID:rjp1313
I'm already "out"
and here's the auction
Thanks, Ralph
There is a lot of hyperbole and BS on eBay, but Ralph's auction is NOT one of them. There is NO HYPE.
Okay it's a "third-world" slab. He states that clearly. He goes beyond that to mention that this company is NOT as trusted as the big boys. He doesn't key-word spam the title. He states he sees no reason the coin isn't MS or even MS63, which, while an opinion, he is entitiled to. Again no hype there. His opinion may or may not be an accurate one (without the coin in hand it is hard to tell, although I have seen worse in low MS holders from the big boys). Oh, and he gives accurate, unmolested photos ... something that can fuel educated arguement for the grade.
20% restocking fee. I love it! It says to me simply, here's everything I've got on the coin ... you bid, you buy ... unless you have such a case of buyers remorse that you must return it ... then you can pay for your mistake and I'll endure this all again.
Back to the question ... VERY wrong to publically flog a fellow collector for selling a coin and making an fair case of it, WITHOUT hyping it.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
IT IS CLEAR THE PICTURE IS REASONABLE AND THE STAEMENTS ARE SOLID. GRADING IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE SUBJECTIVE.
THE individual in question posted a very fine picture and does not mislead as purported.
IMHO.
skerke
The description of the coin and clear photographs do not indicate to me Ralph is being overtly deceptive, the holder does the dirty work for him.
IMHO, that coin is not a MS 63. If it were, Ralph would have sent it to PCGS or NGC and the coin would have sold for even more money. Unfortunately, Ralph will profit from some noob collector very nicely either way as the return fee is ridiculous.
Ralph, how do you justify such a return fee? Why didn't you take Roadrunner's offer to make $1k?
I hope you sleep well at night...Mike
<< <i>Would this 55/55 cross into a SEGS MS63 holder?!
Of course it will. Just a bunch of planchet flaws, that's all.
On one hand, I believe that Roadrunner is one of the really good guys and easily among the sharpest, most experienced and knowledgeable, coin-savvy posters on the forum. I also believe that he posts without an agenda and shares his honest and helpful/informative opinions, asking/expecting nothing in return. If I had to choose one forum member's opinion upon which to rely with respect to grading/evaluating a coin (from either an image or in person) his name would be on a very short list.
On the other hand, I saw nothing "wrong" with Ralph's listing. Perhaps equally or even more importantly, I am extremely impressed with and respectful of the way he has handled himself and replied to posters to this thread. He did not sound defensive or angry and he did not attack anyone. If only all posters (whether in his position or not) were so well behaved and gentlemanly.
The above considerations aside, I believe that the best course of action, if any, would have been for Roadrunner to have PM'd his opinions/concerns to Ralph.
In my mind, whatever one thinks of the coin in question vs. the assigned grade or vs. Ralph's opinion of it, one important point raised, is that a seller can just as easily mislead/misinform someone unintentionally, as he can intentionally.
I am NOT saying that is what happened here. But, if a non-expert gives an honest opinion and it is off the mark, it can have the same impact as if an expert purposely gives a dishonest opinion. Either way, a would-be buyer gets the same (bad) information. I frequently see that here on the forum, where posters give (grade or other type) opinions of coins which are way off the mark. Though well intentioned, they can easily mislead others who don't know better.
I don't want to put words into anyone's mouth. But I believe that (right or wrong) Roadrunner thought Ralph was giving an uninformed/non-expert opinion regarding the coin's quality and its possibility of crossing. And, that in this case, it was just as bad/wrong as if Ralph knew better and was doing so intentionally. That is just my personal interpretation of what I read.
I think two very good people are involved here. If, under the circumstances, they can get along, the rest of this thread's participants should be willing and able to do the same.
Then one of our other illustrious members linked it up within minutes.
I'm glad Russ can do his research in 30 seconds. I'm not as good with a computer. You guys went looking for a tussle and found it.
It's why I dont' bother much with the Open Forum.
I am apologetic for any harm I may have caused Ralph. but for the looks of the replies he has gained prestige at my expense. Well Done Ralph. You held your head much higher than I. My comments on the coin of course still apply. And thanks to those who responded by PM to say I agree...the coin is a mess. Are those guys blind. I have a big problem with our hobby on TPG grading and 3rd tier slabs as well. TDN and I agree, you can easily rule out a coin by a photo. If you don't have that skill, please don't comment that everyone else is wrong. Those same people cannot grade a coin that well in hand either. Grading is connected to how our brains work. Not all are the same. Not everyone gets it or can even learn it. I know several big big dealers who cannot grade. They admit it freely but can perceive eye appeal. Their brains however do not do well in counting marks, lines and other issues. I cannot explain it except to say, it happens. Not all of us can grade the same.
Another one of my axioms: if you say it, it's not an opinion it's actually a statemen of warranty to some extent. I hold people to their words. I expect to be held to my words of "warranty." It has cost me tens of thousands of $$ in my life but that's what I live by.
If you deal with me, know that my word is my bond. If I bring a trashy AT coin to the open forum (and say I think it's ok), I fully expect to be called out to those that do. If I sell a collector a coin I said was not AT, and a year later it gets bagged, I own it again, and full price + interest. So when you deal with me, that's what you get.
But I shy away from public deals because it's not worth the hassle.
I deal 99% with dealers where the transaction is final. I can opinionize all I want and they too. But once the cash changes hands the deal is done. Period. Unless for authenticity or something.
I will not crawl back to them if I bought an AT coin, unless we discussed those terms up front initially. And I don't expect a dealer to come back later and say it only graded MS64, not MS65.
I am in the vast minority about the "opinions = "warranty." I have taken on dozens or hundreds of dealers over the years. I cannot be everywhere. I do try to do things tastefully. If you don't like to deal or sell with someone who will hold you to your opinions and comments....you don't want to deal with me, or people like me.
I gave my own brother a stock tip on my company after the stock plunged. I thought for sure I knew something about how we did our total business. What I didnt' know was about the deep financial issues in areas outside our core business. We went ch 11 and I lost $50,000 in the 401K and he lost $5000 on the stock he bought.
It was my blunder. I made it good to him on my own a year later and paid interest to boot ($6000). You stand behind your word, your opinions and the "warranty" they represent. You live or die by your words or opinions.
Let's keep the hype and puffery on ebay. If you don't know for certain don't comment. This is our home (the forum). If you're selling to members give them more courtesy than you would others.
Dont' comment on what you may not know. If you're not sure, then don't comment. If you see me violating this please let me know and slap me upside the head.
The $1000 offer stands. The auction could have been pulled at any time for any good reason by Ralph. My comments here could have been perceived as interference. He could ask me to buy the coin outright. Meeting the reserve price was a non-issue. My offer was fair, real, honest, and legitimate.
To those that think this could be a mint state coin. Better get back to the ANA seminar as soon as you can. You have work to do.
I have 30 years of making mistakes to say such a thing. It's impossible to verify a PQ coin from a photo but it is easy to spot a lower end coin or a misgrade. Ralph's photos were superb and imo left nothing to the imagination on what this coin was.
Sorry Ralph for any inconvenience. I should have pursued this further in PM's. It could have been handled via PM but I jumped the gun after the first response when I felt you replied as if I was questioning your skills, rather than your integrity. Next time I will be much slower to post...as I normally try to be. But, I did not just bolt to the coin forum as soon as the BST listing showed up. I know better. And some of the chuckle-heads that live know how to stir the pot and do so at every opportunity. I am usually unbearably fair in what I do....to a fault...and often to my own loss. I can stand behind by words and live up to them....better than most.
Now let this thread die....or I'll threaten to edit it all.
roadrunner
I don't think either Ralph or roadrunner deserves some of the snide comments or does either one deserve to be jumped on. Both seem like good guys to me. As always just my opinion.
I had great problems with how our hobby works, esp with grading services. 90% of the collectors and newbs get scammed and lose money. I hate this to death. But I'll fight to the death trying to keep it from happening. There are thousands of dealers, collectors, etc. who are screwing collectors/investors and other dealers. There are FAR more bad deals out there than good ones. It's a very tough thing to live with never mind being the cop to ferret out all the corruption. To those that PM me, they know I pull no punches, even with the biggest dealers. If you are afraid of what I might say in private to you, don't ask the question. I will speak what I think the truth is the best I can.
I used to say that 90% of the sellers in this business are crooked.
Or have no idea what they are doing and the end result is the same.
Mark stated that much better already. That % could be higher or lower today....I won't comment.
In the days of pre-slabbing I returned >90% of all coins from CW advertisers. I obviously lost faith after years of trying. That number could be higher or lower today. Back then, most of the market were crooks, scheister, or totally vacuuous sellers. It was the wild west....it is forever imprinted on my psyche. This I cannot change. I am not Captain Coindogooder. I just try to make a difference
My motto: no one, not even a first time buying newbie, should lose money on a coin. I do what I can to pass the word and give out
help. I lose money on coins all the time...but I'm swimming with the sharks on my own free will and know the rules. If I get bit, shame on me. I get lots of shame believe me. But I do make money on others as well. I have to wonder how bad the newbies are getting it. But I know what the answer is. Yeah, it's a hobby, but gosh darn it, you shouldn't have to lose money dabbling in it...or at least not lose because you were taken. If you choose to toss the money and know you're being cheated, I can't help that.
By the way, I had a friend who owned those Shell President's coins in the 1970's. Took them to a local dealer who said "you can burn those buster." My friend was crushed. From what I hear, those might be worth something today....go figure. But then again I didnt' think at the time they were worth much either.
roadrunner
As always, I have learned from this forum (although I still prefer the lurking method).
I too say -- let this thread die and take what you can from it.
Thanks, Ralph
Kudos to Ralph for the way he handled the situation too.
That doesn't change my opinion that this auction has serious issues.
Why not take the $1k? Why not submit it to to a top-tier TPG? Why have a 20% restocking fee?
I'm sorry, but to me the answer is clear...Mike
But if you need any help in furthering your purchases or sales I'm happy to assist free of charge. I won't sell you anything but only promise to do my best so that you get your money's worth if that is your intention. Many here do not care what they pay for things.
That's cool too. PM me any time. Whatever you say will of course be held in confidence.....though let's face it....HRH probably reads all my PM's and is sending out speeding tickets to all the sellers I've made comments on.
Imagine what our PM's would do if they fell into the wrong hand.
Holy moly. Michael, you'd be toast!
roadrunner
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
IMHO
Gary
do the right thing call him out
then show me the coin in hand sight seen if it is a coin within my specialities
and then i will tell you either way if the hype is warrented or not
<< <i>Imagine what our PM's would do if they fell into the wrong hand. >>
Go into view History and delete all of them on both ends.
The buyer (a member here) has backed out of the purchase. (Not that I can blame him after this thread.)
This was done in a mutual agreement and I have no hard feelings toward the Buyer.
No I didn't charge him 20% for those of you who may like to stir the pot
Anyone who doesn’t think that the comments here don't significantly affect people are wrong.
I can't stop people from having there opinions - nor would I want to.
I have had a series of unfortunate events related to coin collecting that has left me rather disenchanted, and I am sorry a newly revived boyhood fascination has become what it seems to be.
For now I guess I'll keep the coin. Who knows maybe I'll have one hell of a giveaway, or maybe I'll sneak it back on eBay when no one is looking.
I can't say I'm not disappointed in the circumstances, but is not like this will have me taking the kids Christmas toys back.
I guess I'll just stick to checking my pocket change for 82 NO P dimes for awhile.
Thanks, Ralph
As for the rest of it all, I'd like to say: I know RR personally and always thought he's a very good guy; I would not bid on the auction in question (but do like the blonde in that other auction); I think Ralph maintained his public composure exceptionally well; and, RR should change the title and intro post to something that will dissuade folks from reading.
Perhaps the new title/thread can be about the Shriver commem or R-ratings of 1998-P Jefferson 5c die marriages.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
both Roadrunner and Ralph are upstanding guys.
I'm comfortable with that.
Camelot
<< <i>I have had a series of unfortunate events related to coin collecting that has left me rather disenchanted, and I am sorry a newly revived boyhood fascination has become what it seems to be. >>
Ralph,
I am sorry to hear of your disenchantment. You should be applauded for your responses in this thread, and for letting the buyer out of his bid.
However, by relisting the coin with the same terms, slab, and description you would be only spreading your disenchantment to others. I hope you consider those words if and when you chose to sell it, and offer fairer terms and a more informed opinion.
Take care...Mike
I rarely (ever?) reply to such posts, but I did on this one. Not really sure why.
RR; I respect from his posts, and read and learn from in that way, but I don't know him yet. I was surprised that it was him. I never did see the BST post, but after looking at the eBay post I didn't take it as a misrepresentation. On further thought I can see how it could be. Sometimes I forget the guilability of the newbie ... and I too hate the BS that goes on in this great hobby ... especially targeted at the un (or under) informed.
Ralph I also don't know, but he carves a mean nickel. And based on his responses, he holds up well under the flame.
I too believe I can grade pretty well from a picture, and do not think the coin is MS. Lincoln's are not a specialty of mine anyway, so that comment is worthless. Yet I have held coins from the top two that are dogs, I have owned 63's from both services that were borderline 58's (should have been 55's probably). In that I did not think (nor do I still) that Ralph's comment was HYPE.
The comment about my "loving" the 20% restocking fee was OT. Which is why, I (at least for one) should have just moved on quietly.
I'll shut up now.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Ralph, you have been way too nice. RR IMO is way out of line.
Those that have a problem with Ralph's auction, have you looked at many eBay auctions? Ralph has done absolutely nothing wrong and IMO went above the call of duty by mentioning that not all TPG's are looked at in the same light.
Coin collecting/buying has reached much farther and operates differently than some may be used to and/or operates differently than some may want it to.
Get over it and get used to it. That doesn't mean that I condone people getting ripped off but more often than not, the ones getting ripped off had greed as their guiding principle. Unfortunately, it is a lesson most have to learn the hard way.
Joe.
It's also likely we'll never find out, unless the seller decides to take RR up on his offer.
My offer still stands on this coin making it to MS60 ($500) or MS63 ($1000). It's a way out for Ralph to be compensated for his not making money on this coin. And because DDO's have advanced so strongly the past 2 years it would be a crime that any collector holding one for more than 6 months didn't profit from it. If Coinguy1 will oblige I'm good to go. I'll let it go 5X to PCGS if you like. I'll pay 5 grading fees. It would be a good data point to the forum. Esp. with noting how consistent PCGS is. My gift to the forum and Ralph.
After 5X I think we'll have a consensus on the coin. They're still going up so it will only be worth more in a few months. If it goes UNC Ralph will get bailed out. If not, we'll know more about PCGS consistency one way or the other, esp on such a commonly submitted coin as a Lincoln cent.
To my detractors, try to sell some of your 3rd tier slabs out in the open market and see what you get before you burn the witch or shoot the messenger. The market has many issues with grading.
And until one sells consistently, you just don't know. Buying is easy.
We can all do that. Go try to sell to dealers, not to newbie ebayers.
Take the real test and try to buy and sell on the bourse among dealers...raw and slabbed. There's proof in that pudding. Do not wait 1 or 2 or 5 or 10 years to sell your first coin.
Thanks EVP and Mad4Morgans....I implemented your suggestions.
roadrunner
That being said, I see nothing objectionable about the auction.
BTW, seller, some of the pics are going red-X on me at the moment? The ones I can see are nice clear pictures.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
roadrunner
I am intrigued by your offer. More from the educational standpoint it offers than from your offered compensation.
I am always eager to learn and quite curious.
As an education to the forum, I think the experiment you have presented would be quite interesting.
It would allow a comparison of SEGS to PCGS and allow for a gauge of consistency from PCGS.
The worst case scenario is that I end up with the same coin, which I actually like, just with different plastic around it.
If you are sincere in your offer, I will take you up on it.
PM me with the details.
Thanks, Ralph
P.S. something this interesting is sure to get you a 100-200 post thread
If you want to go with NGC after PCGS for another 5X you'll have to find different contributors.
We can post the results down the road. But I would assume if you get a MS61 on the 3rd try you'll probably not want to crack it out and try 2 more times to see how it does on #4 and #5. And I can understand that.
Do you think HRH would be ok with posting unfavorable results if that should be how it turns out? What if the coin came back 50, 58, 55, 53, 61? Would that be something PCGS would want published here? And on Ralph's side what if the coin came back counterfeit or no grade? That could be a problem also. There are always risks with 3rd tier slabs and no guarantees.
Late add: we have a submitter so the game is on. Now we just wait for the result.
roadrunner
It should be interesting.
Ralph
It will be fun, and potentially expensive (lol). I've often offered "free" $20 saints (vs. their cash) to anyone in the past that would take me up on my silly bets. Ralph finally did. Might be last!
roadrunner
<< <i>I guess the parade will continue until every forum member, there are only 19,000 of them, gets to respond. Most of my posts are ignored except for a few people. I've always wondered, why can't I get a 100-200 post thread? An interesting statement on the forum that a post like this gets this type of response. If you wish for it you just might get it.
roadrunner >>
Now that I'm chiming in, we're down to 18,999
IMO, this forum is all about communication; I have found this particular thread very illuminating.
I would bore you all to death by writing about all of the thoughts and feelings that this subject evokes in me, so I won't.
All I will say is that there are two folks that I believe to have handled themselves very well and appear to have come to an
adequate solution for both of them. I have respected RR's posts since coming here recently and appreciate very much his point of view,
both here and in other threads. I have been amazed and delighted with the aplomb with which Ralph has handled this issue. Kudos to both-
IMO you both have defensible points of view. CU forum members seem to me to be mostly numismatic purists - they (perhaps we if I am accepted as such)
are disturbed at the commercial impurities of the coin business. I don't know that this is new, but it is certainly exacerbated by the advent of both the
TPG's and the internet. OTOH, Ebay is a selling venue, with the intent of most of the participants to maximize profits. Most believe that such maximization should
be done as fairly and honestly as possible; unfortunately, many do not - they will say or do anything in order to sell.
It's a fine line, this yin/yang thing. It's not going away anytime soon, and it deserves to continue to be addressed. I suspect that the subject will be addressed
here more often than on Ebay, primarily because the purists are mostly here.
Good luck, gentlemen - I have grow to respect you both.
Keith
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1