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POLL: Are slabs designed primarily for people that don't know how to grade?

MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,365 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
Simple question. No BS. Yes or no?
Andy Lustig

Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

Comments

  • clw54clw54 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭
    I suppose so. They're also for authentication and assuring a coin isn't cleaned. There are so many pitfalls to coin buying, any one of which can rip a person off, it's good to have experts to guarantee a coin is okay.
  • michaelmichael Posts: 9,524 ✭✭✭
    well yes

    but mostly for coin sellers to make money .............. value added plastic and tag combos with certain types of coins and ga-ga grades

    pcgs has created more millionaries than any venue in the coin game
  • p8ntp8nt Posts: 2,947 ✭✭✭
    No. Slabs are for protection. They protect people from being ripped off whether it be through authentication, attributing, grading etc. The grade is the genious marketing technique that plays with the mind and keeps most coming back and striving to be the top. (and part of the protection from being ripped off)
  • markglickermarkglicker Posts: 1,486 ✭
    They are the modern equivalent of a chop mark. I am a decent grader of Dollars, but don't have a chance with Dimes. They tend to level the field.
  • questor54questor54 Posts: 1,351 ✭
    Even though it is frustrating to not be able to touch a coin, examine the edge, weigh it, etc. etc. - I buy slabs for the protection they provide to the coins and the relatively secure holdering. They certainly are not perfect holders, but they are very very good at preventing damage. And remember, we really don't own our coins, we just pay for the privilege of taking care of them for a while.

  • DarkmaneDarkmane Posts: 1,021 ✭
    twofold protection. dont act like you've never dropped a slab..... or maybe that's just me
  • Coinhusker1Coinhusker1 Posts: 3,560 ✭
    If everyone who bought / sold coins knew how to grade, and grading standards were precise and consistent and not subject to different interpretations by different persons, then slabs likely would not be necessary.

    As we all know, that is an impossible if.
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,548 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Authentication is also critical. Many current collectors seem to forget the counterfeiting problem with gold and key date coins that existed prior to slabbing.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No. I will speak in gross generailites. Casual collectors buy coins raw. Serious collectors buy certified coins. Serious collectors know how to grade what they collect, but let's face it, grading is an opinion, and the grading opinion of a third party allows a buyer to feel more comfortable buying an expensive coin. Third party grading ads a level of protection and liquidity that is not present when buying raw. Absent third party grading, I would still be collecting coins in the $50 to $200 range.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • DHeathDHeath Posts: 8,472 ✭✭✭
    Yes. They allow those without expertise to play an expert's game.
    Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers
    and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭
    Third party grading was suppose to add uniformity to grading and stop grade inflation, to some degree it has worked, but it's mostly a failure.
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,208 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Its not perfect but its better than it used to be; you still have to like the coin [in the slab or not] and shud at least be able to know if the grade on the insert is approximately correct. The other problem is that even in a 125 year old bag of 78-S Morgans not all of the coins are created exactly the same so that 2 completely different coins can both be ms63.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • mercurydimeguymercurydimeguy Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭

    No. Slabs are for people who need someone else to establish a value for their coin, and/or help them rationlize the merits of their own buying decision.

    Slabs are "comfort food" for the insecure image

    But why do people buy slabs? Sometimes the only way to get a specific coin is to buy it in a slab because you can't find it otherwise.

  • FatManFatMan Posts: 8,977 ✭
    No BS? What has this forum come too?image

    The answer is primarily "YES"
  • OKbustchaserOKbustchaser Posts: 5,539 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>No. I will speak in gross generailites. Casual collectors buy coins raw. Serious collectors buy certified coins. Serious collectors know how to grade what they collect, but let's face it, grading is an opinion, and the grading opinion of a third party allows a buyer to feel more comfortable buying an expensive coin. Third party grading ads a level of protection and liquidity that is not present when buying raw. Absent third party grading, I would still be collecting coins in the $50 to $200 range. >>



    In gross generalities casual collectors buy grades not coins. Serious collectors buy coins slabbed or raw since, yes, they do learn to grade what they collect (and what dealers they can trust in that particular field). I agree that grading is an opinion, however a TPG grade is wrong AT LEAST as often as it is right. This is why coins seldom stay in their first holder--unless of course that first holder is a coffin. As for grading opinions I will much more readily depend on someone who is an expert in the type of coin I am considering buying than on the opinion of someone who spent 5 seconds looking at that early bust half, then went back to grading Morgans, then graded a submittion of 100 Lincoln cents, then 3 commems, etc. He will never have the time to develop expertise in any particular genre.

    I do agree with you that absent third party grading I would still be collecting coins in the $50 to $200 range...those are still the coins I AM collecting--but now, because of the advent of plastic they cost in the range of $750 to $1000. Personally, I would rather still be paying the lower prices--yes, even if that means that my heirs might not be able to retire after selling my collection.

    Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭
    In general, perhaps. But depending on the coin, it can also be for authentication and/or attribution. For lower grade key dates, the authentication is more important than the grade in terms of adding value.
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Yes. They allow those without expertise to play an expert's game. >>

    image

    I also learned something today, I am not a serious collector, just a casual one. image And what does that make me when I buy a slabbed coin and crack it out?image
  • MadMonkMadMonk Posts: 3,743 ✭
    I think the main thrust was to be able to trade sight unseen.
    Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,477 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Andy, I need interpretation on the post as it provokes thinking but you say "NO BS, YES OR NO"
    Yes on one hand-----someone who can't grade and wants to get into coins better say YES
    No on the other------David Hall knows how to grade image as do many of us , and better still, "how to present a product".

    No BS, seriously ~

    ( I'm looking for that icon with guy scratchin' his image 's) LOL
  • MrHalfDimeMrHalfDime Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭✭
    One might argue that not only are slabs designed FOR people that don't know how to grade, but also BY people that don't know how to grade. And what's with that argument that slabs "protect people through attributing"? I've seen more slabs with incorrect attributions than I have with 'incorrect' grades. You can't blame that on "attribution-flation". It either is or it isn't. All due respect to our hosts, it should come as no surprise that I am no fan of slabs or TPGs.
    They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Primarily? No. Since there was third party grading before there were slabs, slabs were designed primarily for protection and their tamper-resistant qualities. Do slabs make it easier for those who cannot grade to participate in the hobby without getting burned too badly? Yes.
    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • jabbajabba Posts: 3,176 ✭✭✭✭✭
    yes and no, Some use them to keep the coin safe and other's live by the plastic grade.

    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923

    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923

  • RayJayRayJay Posts: 190
    Yes but I do wish they would put the information in Braille for me so i wouldnt have to trust others so muchimage
  • RedTigerRedTiger Posts: 5,608 ✭
    Slabs are designed to protect and prevent counterfeiting of slabs. The TPGs are marketing companies set up to add value, allowing submitters (mostly big dealers) to sell coins for more money. Grading is secondary.
    Investment blog: gold, stocks and more
  • TheRavenTheRaven Posts: 4,148 ✭✭✭✭
    I would say a mix of no & yes.....

    My Barber Half Set I am working on in VG grade I will by any of those coins raw because I know exactly what I want grade wise and fell comfortable looking over those coins.....

    As far as my gold coins, I will only buy Classic American Gold Coins certified for a few reasons, I want to be 99.9% certain the coin is real. With the price jumps between grades, I want there to be a set grade when the coins go back on the market and the comfort level of purchasing high dollars coins that I know the "specific" grade and that they are real.....
    Collection under construction: VG Barber Quarters & Halves
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,702 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>well yes

    but mostly for coin sellers to make money .............. value added plastic and tag combos with certain types of coins and ga-ga grades

    pcgs has created more millionaries than any venue in the coin game >>



    Yes. It is true that no one would buy an expensive old coin for a lot of money unless it is slabbed and moderns often trade raw but it isn't fair to categorize classic collecting as a game since many of those buying them are true collectors.

    Well said otherwise, though.
    Tempus fugit.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My answer would be a qualified “No.”

    The slab companies would like neophytes to think that their services release them from the responsibility of learning how to grade coins, but in reality it doesn’t. If you don’t know how to grade coins and buy slabbed coins at random from the top two companies, chances are you are going to get screwed. Buying slabbed coins is not like buying a brand name can of peas at the supermarket. Every coin is different, and eye appeal has a big effect on value. And sometimes the slab companies blow the grade completely.

    I buy slabbed coins and I’ve had my better coins slabbed because they become more marketable. If Got forbid I dropped dead tomorrow, my wife would have some reference from which to work to sell my collection. I’ve also found that once you have the graded “nailed” in the slab the coin is easier to sell and it’s easier to get a good price.

    Slabs also provide a measure of physical protection. If you drop it, the coin has a far better chance of not getting damaged. It also keeps “stupid fingers” away from the coin. That why they can’t handle it or clean it.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • supertoothsupertooth Posts: 274 ✭
    I, for one, am not a casual collector. Yet I do buy most of my coins raw. I am, however, a serious collector who does know how to grade what he collects. We must all remember that someone must find the coins before any TPG can put them into a slab. The fellow who can identify a raw coin for what it is---will likely make some bucks once he gets it into a slab. I pretty much agree with OKbustchaser's comments. As for the slabs, they do help to protect the coins. They can keep somewhat of a level playing field for those whose grading skills may not be as good as they should be. And they allow those of us who start with the coin in the raw state to make a profit off of our abilities to grade in our areas of expertise. Bob [supertooth]
    Bob
  • kiyotekiyote Posts: 5,586 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can am comfortatble that I accuratly grade Eisenhower dollars, Kennedy halves and liberty nickels, but I don't know a thing about half cents or Twenty cent pieces. Slabs make it so that you don't have to be an expert in grading coins in every field.

    Also, just because *you* can grade isn't going to stop a dealer from claiming your MS61 1916-D Mercury dime is only an AU-55. Slabs offer protection.
    "I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
  • OKbustchaserOKbustchaser Posts: 5,539 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Also, just because *you* can grade isn't going to stop a dealer from claiming your MS61 1916-D Mercury dime is only an AU-55. Slabs offer protection. >>



    The problem with that is that 90 to 95% of all the slabbed MS61's that I have seen ARE AU-55 to 58.image So where is the protection?
    Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
  • PistareenPistareen Posts: 1,505 ✭✭✭
    Andy --

    I'm surprised at the responses. Are you?

    My answer is a qualified yes. My interpretation of those folks who say there is an extra measure of security are really saying that most people like their expensive coins to be slabs, thus it makes them more liquid.

    Buy nice coins and they'll always be nice. Nice coins afford their own security. It's the average and below average ones that need help! Notice that a nice coin could be VG or MS-67.
    John Kraljevich Americana
    Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,612 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The problem with that is that 90 to 95% of all the slabbed MS61's that I have seen ARE AU-55 to 58. So where is the protection? >>



    In the current market you are looking at a "market acceptable" situation.

    The point is that the prices on the Gray Sheet have been adjusted for the lower grading standards. A true "old time" 1916-D Mercury Dime in "old time" VF should be worth more than the prices listed on the Gray Sheet and it is. The trouble is that VF in now in an EF-45 holder. image
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,702 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Andy --

    I'm surprised at the responses. Are you?

    My answer is a qualified yes. My interpretation of those folks who say there is an extra measure of security are really saying that most people like their expensive coins to be slabs, thus it makes them more liquid.

    Buy nice coins and they'll always be nice. Nice coins afford their own security. It's the average and below average ones that need help! Notice that a nice coin could be VG or MS-67. >>



    Amen.
    Tempus fugit.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,612 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Buy nice coins and they'll always be nice. Nice coins afford their own security. It's the average and below average ones that need help! Notice that a nice coin could be VG or MS-67. >>



    Still it all comes back to marketability. Yes a nice coin can sell itself, but once the grade is set, it reduces risk.

    People get screwed with undergraded coins all the time. And both PCGS and NGC are so arrogant, that they won’t even consider having a reasoned discussion about it. Their response is, buy another grading fee and take you chances.

    Buying expensive raw coins at a bourse is a real minefield. Most of the expensive raw coins are raw for a reason. The reason is usually pretty obvious, but sometimes the snake under the rock turns out to be a baby cobra.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    I bet many of the guys who answered yes won't ask for driving directions either.image
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • OKbustchaserOKbustchaser Posts: 5,539 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The problem with that is that 90 to 95% of all the slabbed MS61's that I have seen ARE AU-55 to 58. So where is the protection? >>



    In the current market you are looking at a "market acceptable" situation.

    The point is that the prices on the Gray Sheet have been adjusted for the lower grading standards. A true "old time" 1916-D Mercury Dime in "old time" VF should be worth more than the prices listed on the Gray Sheet and it is. The trouble is that VF in now in an EF-45 holder. image >>



    Which totally invalidates the supposed reasoning behind a TPG. You still get dealers buying at one grade and selling at another. Only now it is a case of "Buy the coin; sell the holder".

    How about instead of changing the grading standards to (supposedly) reflect the market let's update the price guides to reflect what a "true old-time" VF should be worth!

    If a given coin is worth a premium over others in its grade range let the buyer and seller decide that--NOT a TPG company.
    Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
  • MacCrimmonMacCrimmon Posts: 7,058 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I bet many of the guys who answered yes won't ask for driving directions either.image >>



    YES! Maybe the "yes" votes can read their own map.image
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    This thread has me smiling to myself. I would guess that more collectors of recent have lost more money buying slabbed coins than raw from what I have witnessed. Secondly and I hesitate to say this, but I am not convinced that those who claim to be such great graders would fair well as they think if they had to grade raw coins. I believe the Presidents of the TPG's would agree with this observation as I have overheard these comments at shows. Does anyone remember that thread from 2-3 years ago. image
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I bet many of the guys who answered yes won't ask for driving directions either.image >>



    YES! Maybe the "yes" votes can read their own map.image >>



    MAP? We don't need no stinking map!image
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • ttownttown Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭
    A top TPG service comes a lot closer than most to grading a coin accurately in the current market since the standards seem to change. No excuse for not knowing how to grade but it's just an opinion. I've spent many an hour arguing over a grade on a raw coin with dealers, what is a AU58 when selling magically becomes a MS63 when they sell it to there customers. I don't enjoy the debate aspects so I grade a TPG coin and it gives me a leg up on a dealer when it comes time to sell when determining a grade.
  • orieorie Posts: 998 ✭
    Liquidity is the name of the game. Before slabs, dealers would downgrade my coins 2 pts. and upgrade theirs by two. And for all you expert graders knocking slabs, who have come along since slabs, most of you would have left the game early after a few not so good experiences buying raw. Being able to attend a show and seeing thousand of slabs sure helps the eye.
    Cool set...poor pics
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,612 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>How about instead of changing the grading standards to (supposedly) reflect the market let's update the price guides to reflect what a "true old-time" VF should be worth! >>



    I agree with you, but I am one small guy with no influence on the market whatsoever. Therefore my choices are to quite my business and leave the hobby or adjust to the way things are. I have chosen to adjust.



    << <i>If a given coin is worth a premium over others in its grade range let the buyer and seller decide that--NOT a TPG company. >>



    This happens all the time. I have sold many "PQ" (high quality for the grade) coins at prices that exceeded those listed in the price guides. Almost all of those sales have been to other dealers. Too many collectors have the noses stuck in the Gray Sheet, which causes them to miss out on some of the better deals.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,208 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This question ought to be asked of those who started the slabbing business. Possibly you mean is the popularity of slabbed coins due to those who can't or won't grade. Slabbing does take a lot of [but not all of] the risk out of buying coins. The reason that there are so many ugly coins in slabs is that the TPG's can't seem to find a genteel way to keep them out. If you are a semi-serious Morgan collector there are a lot of desireable coins in the $500 to $1500 range. Unless you are filthy rich [which many of us aren't] thats a lot of money to gamble on raw stuff. I guess you find out how good you are or think you are when you go to sell. When you read the comments here about seeing the same old stale stuff at show after show you know that at least some of the collecting fraternity has a discriminating eye.
    theknowitalltroll;

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