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Ohio Coin Expo's are finished, toast, done
clevegreg
Posts: 909 ✭
Just received the following email from Ron Nelson who put on a quarterly "big show" in the Cleveland, Ohio area. Many of the locals here stopped going because of Ron charging $5 to $7 for admittance. It used to pull in a decent variety of dealers, but even those folks started to get peeved with his high table charge and many stopped attending. Below is Ron's "pity" email for those who are from the area:
Dear Greg,
Our August Ohio Coin Expo was a loss of almost $4,000. I think this
was due in part to Mr. Tom Noe & the breaking BWC scandal relating to
Ohio's investment in coins through Mr. Noe. Within weeks of the
scandal breaking, a 7 ½% sales tax was imposed on coin and bullion
sales in Ohio. All dealers must now have a valid Ohio Vendors
License. Not only did we have lower bookings for August, we had
7 or 8 cancellations prior to the show. In addition, the police
had raised their rates from $21/hour to $27/hour and the Holiday
Inn has raised their ballroom rent to help pay for a $500,000 upgrade.
Our bookings were down in August, however, the same number of days in
advance of November; we are currently off almost 20 % from August.
This is a new operating environment. In this new environment, I am
not sure of anything.
The condition of our bank balance was deceptive in that we collect
advance deposits for future shows. Our checking account balances
after our August show was deceptively high and concealed a large
operating loss for August. The bloated float from the October,
November 2005 and February 2006 show deposits fooled me. The losses
were only clear as I paid bills and ran a belated P&L for the August
show. It was a shock. Our costs can not be reduced enough to put us
back in the black. We are shutting down all shows in Ohio and take
some time to reflect on this new business climate.
We thank you for being part of the Ohio Coin Expo. Over the years,
many of you have become more than dealers to us. You have become
friends. Some of you have done every single show we produced.
We truly appreciate your loyalty and patronage. Joe & I will
continue to attend shows in the tri-state area and we are sure
to meet you again.
I am sorry for any inconvenience these cancellations have caused
you. We are canceling ALL shows until we understand this new
environment.
Sincerely,
Ron & Anita Nelson & Joe Bowen
Dear Greg,
Our August Ohio Coin Expo was a loss of almost $4,000. I think this
was due in part to Mr. Tom Noe & the breaking BWC scandal relating to
Ohio's investment in coins through Mr. Noe. Within weeks of the
scandal breaking, a 7 ½% sales tax was imposed on coin and bullion
sales in Ohio. All dealers must now have a valid Ohio Vendors
License. Not only did we have lower bookings for August, we had
7 or 8 cancellations prior to the show. In addition, the police
had raised their rates from $21/hour to $27/hour and the Holiday
Inn has raised their ballroom rent to help pay for a $500,000 upgrade.
Our bookings were down in August, however, the same number of days in
advance of November; we are currently off almost 20 % from August.
This is a new operating environment. In this new environment, I am
not sure of anything.
The condition of our bank balance was deceptive in that we collect
advance deposits for future shows. Our checking account balances
after our August show was deceptively high and concealed a large
operating loss for August. The bloated float from the October,
November 2005 and February 2006 show deposits fooled me. The losses
were only clear as I paid bills and ran a belated P&L for the August
show. It was a shock. Our costs can not be reduced enough to put us
back in the black. We are shutting down all shows in Ohio and take
some time to reflect on this new business climate.
We thank you for being part of the Ohio Coin Expo. Over the years,
many of you have become more than dealers to us. You have become
friends. Some of you have done every single show we produced.
We truly appreciate your loyalty and patronage. Joe & I will
continue to attend shows in the tri-state area and we are sure
to meet you again.
I am sorry for any inconvenience these cancellations have caused
you. We are canceling ALL shows until we understand this new
environment.
Sincerely,
Ron & Anita Nelson & Joe Bowen
0
Comments
i made a speculative thread about this earlier, i'd heard the scuttlebutt at a club meeting the other night and wondered who else may have heard the same. Dave Sands posted to the thread and confirmed things. too bad, really, even though it caused angst among some attendees due to the admission cost, it was the largest regular show in the area and i was almost always able to find good material there, meet new dealers and find good company!!
BTW, give a PM if you might want to meet at the Brookpark show on Sunday.
al h.
I find it difficult to believe that, in an area which clearly has the collector base to turn out for shows, there's no way to run a successful show. Surely the sales tax is a factor, but that doesn't seem to hurt the PAN show right next door in PA, and they don't charge admission.
If the venue is too expensive, the security is too expensive, the tables are too expensive and the admission fee is too expensive - and you STILL lose money - I don't know what to think.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
what would probably work would be a less................optimistic show, perhaps only twice a year and at the same location. it seems a forgone conclusion that something will be done by someone to fill this void. nature, after all, abhors a vacuum.
You're right about the same dealers always showing up. I'm certain this is not just a local phenomenon.I've found that a different group of dealers can sometimes be found at the SMALLER shows-especially those that are sort of off the beaten path. I still attend many of those shows.
One other factor besides the high admission was the pi$$ poor attitude of the people who ran the show and of many of the dealers, too.
That said, I used to live in Ohio until a new job brought me to Texas. I still buy coins from local dealers when I travel back, but the tax situation will make me think twice before I outlay $$$.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
<< <i>Any business person that is 6 months behind in understanding his P&L deserves to go out of business. >>
I think it was from August??
<< <i>The losses were only clear as I paid bills and ran a belated P&L for the August show. >>
<< <i>Well we'll see what his show tomorrow looks like. But I really can't see it being that big a deal. He has been running this show since 1986 and this is only about the third year it has been in Oho. Before that it was in Kentucky and they have always had sales tax on coins as far as I know, so that really isn't that much of a factor. Is it? >>
If it was moved from a tax state (Kentucky) to a non tax state
(at that time, Ohio) that might tell you something. Now that Ohio has the tax they are between a rock and a hard place.
I suspect the biggest problem will be convincing dealers to set up
at the shows in Ohio. If they don't feel like dealing with the
red tape and paperwork with the tax situation they may just
bail.
while i totally agree with this statement and have no doubt that it's the logic of many, it makes about as much sense as the constant complaints i've heard through the years of the admission charge at shows.
-----consider a dealer who may net $20k-$30k during a three-day weekend show, complaining about the inconvenience of some paper work, a permit and 7-1/2% tax.
-----consider a collector finding a coin that's been eluding them for years or perhaps a "cherrypick" that nets a $1000 profit, complaining about a $5-$10 admission fee.
principals are one thing, foolish pride or a misguided sense of justice are entirely another. i just don't understand the logic of many dealers/collectors.
I once did all of the Ohio shows, but I have not for the past couple of years. We always had good shows in Cleveland. I never agreed with the admission charge, but it never seemed to hurt show traffic. We simply stopped going to Ohio because the shows always seemed to conflict with other national shows that we preferred to Cleveland.
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
As far as the sales tax situation in Ohio - I think the ICTA and the OSNA needs to seriously do something!
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
I agree with your first point, and I disagree somewhat with your second point. As a collector, if I am buying an expensive coin, and I have the opportunity to buy it for 7.5% less out-of-state, why would I buy it in state. That said, if I lived in Cleveland* I would still attend the show and would not hesitate to buy lower price coins ($100 or less) on account of the tax.
*As a lifelong, diehard Steelers fan, nothing could be more distasteful.
<< <i>it makes about as much sense as the constant complaints i've heard through the years of the admission charge at shows. >>
Keets, I am one who is really bugged by admission fees. I recently have come to the decision to not attend any show that charges one. Foolish pride?...maybe. Misguided sense of justice?...possibly. Principals?...nah, has nothing to do with school or loan balances
But for me it is simpler than all that. I just refuse to pay for the right to buy coins from the dealers inside. The dealers should appreciate me coming to see their inventory enough to pay my way. If they don't, I will take my business elsewhere. There are more than enough shows that don't charge admission that missing a few that do won't cramp my collecting. That's it, nothing more, nothing less.
Jerry
No.
So what shows are there around Cleveland the rest of the year.....
The Mashauds show and the Brookpark show the first sunday of the month.....
Going to put a serious crimp into my coin purchases.....
<< <i>One other factor besides the high admission was the pi$$ poor attitude of the people who ran the show and of many of the dealers, too. >>
I stopped going for these reasons plus the fact that they let this guy continually sell AT coins...blatant too (although I was fooled at the time). I had good experiences with just a handful of the dealers at the shows I've attended over the course of the last two years. One stood out as my go-to guy for reasonably priced, quality raw gems. His name was Robert from WI Numismatics. Cheers to that guy. The rest were borderline shady.
A collector pays for the privileges of shopping and then pays again for the privilege of buying.
What a bargain.
<< <i>Does Ohio have the $1000 cut off on coins as part of their new sales tax on coins?
No. >>
There is no way that I could ever do business in a state with a tax structure like that. For very expense coins, the mark-up is often less than 10%. If you have to give 7% to the state, why bother? If you try the charge the tax directly, most customers will refuse to buy. That's just the way it is.
Ohio has clearly become a numismatic wasteland.
This is a clear example of how greedy state officals who have to get the last tax dollar cut off their own nose to spite their faces.
They end up with nothing. No sales tax revenue, no hotel tax revenue, no meal tax revenue and less money flowing into businesses in the state. The last I knew the Ohio economy was something less than flush. With tax policies like that, they'll be further down in the hungry line.
<< <i>i assume I would be entitled to have any coins located at a show in Ohio shipped to me tax free? >>
Sure, bu then you will have to pay for shipping, handling, and insurance. The odd thing is collectors are often willing to pay more money for those than they would in sale taxes.
the really unnecessary shows and auctions from the schedule.
We are already seeing smoe of the bigger players cutting back
on smoe Regional shows. It has become too much of a load, too expensive
with declining results. Each dealer will attend only those shows that have
proved most rewarding for them either on the buy or sell side or both.
Camelot
collectors are often more willing to pay $3/gallon for gasoline to drive 3-6 hours for a show in a neighboring state instead of paying $6 to go to a show an hour away, it all makes no sense. on top of that is the fact that living in northeastern Ohio, the closest out of state shows are in PA. which also has the tax and it's no big deal. my take on the whole thing is that some like to rant and rave for whatever their personal reasons may be and then pay out the same amount anyway.
the whole situation may be as simple as the original post explained, costs of putting on the show were rising past a point of profitability for the promoter. the bottom line for me is that i knew collectors and dealers that i saw regularly at the Ohio Coin Expo shows. the comraderie was very enjoyable and i quite often was able to find nice coins at the show which helped my modest collection grow. it also provided an outlet to some dealers who i might not otherwise have had the chance to meet regularly. that was certainly worth the modest amount for admission which was less than what a 12-pack would cost or coffee from the machines at work all week, a very petty amount.
i for one will miss the shows and what i got out of attending them.
al h.
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
<< <i>Any chance of moving it to Fort Wayne IN >>
Sounds good to me! That would put it nice and close.
Greg
Got to get my coins from some place.....