It's not so much about Boston/NY, as it is despising everything the yanks stand for...greed, east coast media bias, undeserved fame. You name it, the Yanks got it.
>>
You're so blinded by your hatred of the Yankees that it's pathetic.
Greed? East coast bias? undeserved fame? Sounds to me you're talking about the Boston Red Sox as well!
I think they've spent a pretty penny or two on payroll, no? How many homegrown players do they have? Schilling, Damon, Ramirez, Foulke and company? hello?
You want east coast bias (media coverage)? How many hundreds of books were written about the 2004 Boston Red Sox?
Undeserved fame? Can you name a more overrated franchise than Boston? They win one championship in 100 years and you'd think they invented the wheel! Hell, the Florida Marlins have double the championships Boston has in the last 75 years, but you wouldn't know it from the coverage Boston got BEFORE the 2004 season, would you?
Good to know the NY 'fans' come out when their franchise is threatened.
Yes the Red Sox have spent money - they have to in order to compete. They play in a division with the yanks. But let's not forget: the red sox spent $130 million this year, $70 million LESS than the yanks. That difference is more than many teams entire payroll.
The red sox have not been completely futile or unsuccessful, they just hadn't won it all. They've had plenty of postseason appearances.
I think *your* hate of all things Red Sox is pretty comical myself
<<Carlton Fisk - Postseason Batting 54 AT BATS 14 HITS .259 AVERAGE
Thurmon Munson - Postseason batting 129 AT BATS 46 HITS .357 AVERAGE
Fisk couldn't shine Munson's shoes in the post season. NO CONTEST!>>
AGREED
Fisk could not carry Munson's jokestrap (edited and mispelled intentionally for censors). Fisk had a .269 Mediocre Lifetime Batting Average against Munson's GREAT .292 Batting Average too. Sure Fisk had many more Home Runs but he also played for 24 years versus Munson's 10 years. Fisk gets credit for longevity of a medicore variety.
Sounds to me like you're ok with someone else spending tons on payroll, just so long as it's not New York. Like I said. Bitter as hell about your pathetic franchise in Seattle. Are you going to blame the Beltre and Sexson signings on Steinbrenner also?
$85 million payroll and you're 22 games under .500??! Do yourself a favor and quit talking about payroll when your team is in the top third in salary and one of the worst teams around.
Biggest baseball choke ever was when the 2001 Seattle Mourners won an AL record breaking 116 games and proceeded to lose the AL Division Series to the Yankees in 5 games. Now that was one big massive choke. At least in 2004, the Red Sox were heavily favored to beat the Yankees.
<< <i>Biggest baseball choke ever was when the 2001 Seattle Mourners won an AL record breaking 116 games and proceeded to lose the AL Division Series to the Yankees in 5 games. Now that was one big massive choke. At least in 2004, the Red Sox were heavily favored to beat the Yankees. >>
No! No! No!
I really didn't want to chime in here but - the above statement is ridiculous. Just because the team was "heavily favored" doesn't mean a thing. The sheer magnitude of coming back from the 3-0 deficit and winning 4 postseason games in a row (and lets not forget celebrating this feat on the Yankee field!) is far and away the all-time greatest sports collapse. When the Mariners had that great season in 2001 and made it to the postseason, the records are wiped clean, and all teams started 0-0 again. You can try and try to divert attention from 2004 and the monumental flop that the Yanks performed, but there will be many, many people that will remind you of it.
I don't know...I think the Red Sox choke job in 1986 to the Mets was the worst ever. Certainly tops the 2003 Red Sox/Cubs and 2004 Yankee ALCS collapses in my opinion.
<< <i>I don't know...I think the Red Sox choke job in 1986 to the Mets was the worst ever. Certainly tops the 2003 Red Sox/Cubs and 2004 Yankee ALCS collapses in my opinion. >>
haha spoken like a truly delusional yankee fan!
The Sox blew game 6 and lost game 7....the yankees lost FOUR games in a row. You must have taken some bad drugs that made you forget that all important fact.
<< I don't know...I think the Red Sox choke job in 1986 to the Mets was the worst ever. Certainly tops the 2003 Red Sox/Cubs and 2004 Yankee ALCS collapses in my opinion.>>
DaBigHurt, I think you are correct about the 1986 Red Sox. 1 strike away from the World Series ring, and the TV network (I think it was NBC) was giving closing credits and a Roger Clemens had been named as the World Series MVP.
<< <i>I don't know...I think the Red Sox choke job in 1986 to the Mets was the worst ever. Certainly tops the 2003 Red Sox/Cubs and 2004 Yankee ALCS collapses in my opinion. >>
What? Truly, I never thought I would ever see anyone try and "top" last years Yank collapse. The Sox were up 3-2 in 1986, and as mentioned, lost 2 heartbreaking games. How many times has a team been up 3-2 in a series and then lost it? Too many to count. How many times has a team been up 3-0, and then lost it? I'll remind you both - once!
<< <i>The Sox blew game 6 and lost game 7....the yankees lost FOUR games in a row. You must have taken some bad drugs that made you forget that all important fact. >>
You simply don't know what you're talking about.
The 2004 ALCS games 4 and 5 were VERY tightly contested. At no point, did you have the Red Sox totally out of those games. The Red Sox never 'came back from the dead' in those games. The Yankees and their fans never felt at ease in game 4 and 5 because the Red Sox were always in striking distance.
Ask Boston fans how many of them had already started imagining how they were going to celebrate winning the 1986 World Series when Gary Carter had two strikes on him with two outs and none on with the Red Sox up 2 runs that fateful October night. Nuff said!
<<1 strike away from the World Series ring, and the TV network (I think it was NBC) was giving closing credits and a Roger Clemens had been named as the World Series MVP.>>
That was the most pathetic thing I have everv seen in sports, and although I don't beleive in curses, it almost got me to believe.
<<The 2004 ALCS games 4 and 5 were VERY tightly contested. At no point, did you have the Red Sox totally out of those games. The Red Sox never 'came back from the dead' in those games. The Yankees and their fans never felt at ease in game 4 and 5 because the Red Sox were always in striking distance.
Ask Boston fans how many of them had already started imagining how they were going to celebrate winning the 1986 World Series when Gary Carter had two strikes on him with two outs and none on with the Red Sox up 2 runs that fateful October night. Nuff said!>>
I love this thread! Of course being a Yankee fan myself... 1) I think it has been proven that no matter how much you spend on your payroll a world series is not guaranteed. So please, lets get past that arguement...holds no water. To some of us, it just means money poorly spent...::cough!:: :: Kevin Brown!:: ::cough!:: 2) 1986 World Series IS the all time biggest choke BECAUSE it was the world series and not a playoff series. 3) Red Sox fans take ONE World Series win and they think that it wipes out all of history! Stop living in the past? 2004 IS the past so Yankees fans have different rules when it comes to defending their team? 4) Time will tell if Designated Hitter David Ortiz is just another Mo Vaughn. Lets not forget that when Giambi got his MVP, I believe he was pretty much their everyday 1st basemen out on the field. Im not sure if that same thing goes for Frank Thomas or not. 5) The Red Sox will ALWAYS suck!!!! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA....sorry, just had to throw that one in there 6) I cant wait for this final weekend where the Yanks SPANK those Sox!!! Just my two cents!
How anyone can say that the biggest post season choke in baseball is not the 2004 Yankees is beyond me. Take your 26 rings, and accept the fact that the Yanks choked the series away. Had it been the Indians blowing a 3-0 game lead on the Angels, or Royals over the Rangers, or ... you get my point.
But it wasn't two baseball teams. It was the Yankees and Red Sox for crying out loud. The curse was on the line. Another year of heartache and another heart wrenching loss to the Yankees. That is what made it the choke of all chokes. Losing four straight to the Sox and the "curse" along with it.
Speaking as someone who was at both games, this is the stupidest comment about the games I've ever read:
The 2004 ALCS games 4 and 5 were VERY tightly contested. At no point, did you have the Red Sox totally out of those games. The Red Sox never 'came back from the dead' in those games. The Yankees and their fans never felt at ease in game 4 and 5 because the Red Sox were always in striking distance.
Apparently Yankee fans have such faith in the great Mariano Rivera that a 1 run lead in the ninth represents "striking distance" for the opponent.
The Red Sox were not just down 3-0, they were down 3 games and 24 outs to 0 games and 3 outs. To try to belittle what happened is ridiculous. Any intelligent Yankee fan (oxymoron) I know has recognized this. Any of you disputing it either can't really believe what you're saying, didn't actually watch the games, or just don't know much about baseball in general.
For those of you who aren't Red Sox fans, you're never going to accept it. Even those of you who are but weren't at the games, you might not fully understand the magnitude of the 9th inning of game 4 and every single moment and pitch that followed in that game and the next. Those two games were the greatest 48 hour span of baseball ever played, and represent the greatest comeback in the history of sports. What followed the last two games in NY, completed the greatest collapse and choke in the history of sports. The series gave us both. Deal with it.
These comparisions to 1986 are ludicris postings by the baseball-ignorant just trying to needle the Sox fans. They're not even remotely comparable.
And finally, Gemmy10.
Roger Clemens had been named as the World Series MVP
Really???? Hm, I don't recall that. You know, especially since at the time he was 0-0 with 11 innings pitched in the WS. Strange pick for MVP. So either you're a liar or a moron. Either way, shut up and let the grown-ups talk.
I said I believe the 1986 Red Sox choke job was the worst I saw and gave my reasoning. Just because YOU want to exorcise a lifetime of Red Sox futility on the 2004 season doesn't change what happened in 1986.
I don't remember Mariano throwing a wild pitch to let the tying run score or someone on the Yankee team allowing a slow roller to go under their legs to lose the game.
Or is it because Bosox fans will do ANYTHING to wipe out what Buckner did? LMAO I agree that if you are talking post-season chokes then the 2004 Yans/Sox is in the top 3...and arguably the biggest post season choke...other than the following... When it comes to being the World Champs...THAT is the series of series. That series settles it all. Biggest World Series choke is the 86 Sox/Mets, thus the reason its the #1 all time choke. But thats just my opinion...so settle down!
In my opinion choking is when players don't play to their abilities when the pressure rises. The Yanks last season let games 4 and 5 slip away in Boston, but that is NO excuse for how they played in New York to close out the series. The discipline the Yanks usually play with went out the window and there players allows Schilling to shut them down on one foot and then completed the collapse by allowing D. Lowe and his 5.5 ERA shut them down in game seven. It was so unexpected because us Yankee haters are not accustomed to seeing a complete Yankee meltdown. We see the Yanks lose plenty, but it typically takes an EXTRAORDINARY effort to beat them. Think M's in '95, Indians in '97, D'Backs in '01, Angel's in '02 and Marlins in '03.
The only other time they gave it away was in '01 and that was purely a function of the Yankee arrogance. Had Torre bothered to go over a bunt situation with Mariano, he doesn't throw the ball away and takes the easy play at first. No way does Womack get a hit with two outs and the tying run on base. Even if he does the D'Backs bullpen was spent. Had they needed to battle in extra innings the Yanks would have ended up winning the series.
Oh I'm not trying to "exorcise a lifetime of Red Sox futility ". In my lifetime as a Sox fan, I've never considered them futile.
Please, once and for all, I'll let you all in on a little secret:
It's amusing (and frustrating) to us when you all bring up 1986 and game 6 and Buckner.. Seriously. It's about as relevant as 1946 or 48 or 49.. Contrary to what Fever Pitch, stupid HBO specials, and FOX promos teach you, we don't all sit around punishing ourselves lamenting the futility of the Red Sox. Really. All the moments have passed long ago, just as 2004 has passed. If you want to spew off about a ball going through Bill Buckner's legs 20 years later, go write a book, argue about it on T.V. But talking to real fans, it doesn't get you very far in the argument. Seriously. Try again.
Here's some perspective for you to ignore..
The night of game 6 1986 World Series sucked. Just as game 7 in 75 and 67 had been equally horrible days. Then it passed. The Sox blew it again in game 7 to the Mets and lost the series to a (much favored) team of coke heads. They were close in game 6, and lead in game 7, but couldn't close the deal. You want to call it a choke? I don't know. How do we define a choke in sports? They had victory, and they blew it. Certainly. But then came game 7. Was game 7 the choke because they lost the series having been up 3-2? So game 6 was the choke because they lost even though they didn't lose the series. It's like idiots who mistakenly believe the Sox would've won if Buckner fielded the ball and beat Wilson to first.
What is the choke? Is it that they didn't win game 6? Well, ok, but they could've won game 7. Can an underdog even by definition choke, since they weren't supposed to get crushed in the first place? And on the road in the NL park?
I honestly just don't see it. Of course, I'm just a fan remembering every moment and every emotion about everything that happened.
Everything that happened after game 3 of the 2004 ALCS defines choke -
Yankees steamrolling the Sox, blow out in game 3 Derek Lowe starting for the Sox in game 4 Rivera on the mound with a lead in the 9th in game 4 Gordon puking the bullpen before coming in to give up a HR Returing home to NY 3-2 Facing an injured Schilling in game 6 Trying to cheat in game 6 Leaving tying runs on in 9th game 6 Running Kevin Brown out to start game 7 Getting killed in game 7
Start to finish, over the course of 4 games the Yankees choked in every way possible to lose the ALCS they had been three outs away from owning. They did it at home, they did it on the road. They choked in pitching, hitting, baserunning, managing and umpiring. They choked in every possible way.
So the Sox may've choked away an inning, after which they didn't lose anything, and still had a chance to win. The Yankees choked away 4 straight games, two at home, all started with the so called greatest "closer" in baseball history standing on the mound in the 9th with a 1 run lead, to ultimately lose an ALCS they were initially dominating.
It's hillarious that everyone outside the delusional 'yankee-land' says that the yankees choking away FOUR straight games to the red sox, not only was it postseason, prime time baseball but it was against their biggest rival, was the biggest choke EVER. The only people who would argue otherwise are pill-popping, amnesia having, therapy seeking yankee fanatics.
Look at the people who in this thread desperately try to say the 2004 yankes weren't the biggest chokes ever:
dabighurt (guess his name really fit when the yanks choked away in 2004), spamalot, yankeeno, rbd....ALL YANKEE FANS. Bias much? What's it like to live in a world so detatched from reality? Why don't you guys listen to some experts (and no, the YES network doesn't count) and find out what they feel is the greatest choke of all time. Then, when you've had your yankee lobotomy reversed, come back here and listen to reason.
How does one compare losing 2 games in a row (1986 boston) to losing FOUR in a row, and accomplishing something that's never been done before (2004 yankees), and worse, doing it against your rival? How much money did yankee 'fans' spend on therapy erasing those memories?
A good example that is often brought up... That one series seems to define the Red Sox to most Red Sox fans...or so it seems. And why do non-Yankee fans always resort to name calling? LOL
I wouldn't use the word hatred - it's just frustrating to see the bizarre spin that Yankee fans use to try and "explain" last year's collapse (that is, when they actually acknowledge that it actually happened). dgbaseball laid out the reasoning quite nicely a few posts back so I won't bother repeating it, but there is no comparison - none whatsoever - when you factor in all the things the Sox overcame last year to win that ALCS.
I remember the Saturday night game, early in that series, when the Yanks were pounding the Sox - and as I sat quietly watching the game up to its bitter end hoping we could at least score enough to make it close, even as diehard a Sox fan as I have been for almost 30 years, I never thought we would come back to win. Neither did anyone in the world of sports, no matter what team they root for. All the elements came into play, all the stars lined up properly. You will certainly see other great comebacks in your lifetime in the world of sports, but I can't imagine ever seeing another one that wiped away so much frustration in one shot like that one.
Deal with it Yankee fans - denial is just going to make it worse.
As much as Yankee fans hated to see that happen...I think most Yankee fans take the loss in stride. I believe that eats at Red Sox fans...or the ones that I personally know. So keep holding on to that series for dear life. There are no balls to blow up, no houses to tear down and burn...will the voodoo last or will the curse be back stronger than ever? How many of you yankee haters have your voodoo dolls and needles out? Keep stabbing!
Here Here, I was at the Dave Roberts steal game. I am a veteran of hundreds of sox games, and many playoff games. When Roberts scored I don't remember that place ever being so electic. . The place went mental. I was also at game four last year in St Louis. If I close my eyes I am still there. Something I will never forget. Yankee fans have no idea what suffering and finally jubiliation really is.
<< <i>As much as Yankee fans hated to see that happen...I think most Yankee fans take the loss in stride. I believe that eats at Red Sox fans...or the ones that I personally know. So keep holding on to that series for dear life. There are no balls to blow up, no houses to tear down and burn...will the voodoo last or will the curse be back stronger than ever? How many of you yankee haters have your voodoo dolls and needles out? Keep stabbing! >>
Yankee fans as a whole won't even admit that loss happened, or that the series loss was the greatest choke in all of sports history.
I know Red Sox fans want to think the 2004 ALCS is the most painful thing Yankee fans ever went through because they want bloody revenge, but in my book, the 2001 WS is MUCH more painful than the 2004 ALCS because of the way we came back against Kim and the Dbacks. The game should've been closed it out with Rivera after Soriano hit the homer in game 7.
That series would've been the last games for Brosius and O'neill and would've made it four straight titles. Ask Yankee fans and I think they'll tell you 2001 was the most painful, especially in the context of what happened September 11th.
I don't think the Yankee , Diamondback rivalry really stands up Compared to over 100 years of playing each other. Babe Ruth playing for both teams. Fights during the season etc.
The first numbe is Rice's Home Slugging Percentage, the second was his road SLG%. Fenway was the best hitters park in baseball during Rice's time. It was especially better for RH pull hitters, and left handed opposite field hitters. When a ballpark adjustment is made, it only accounts the entire realm of hitters and doesn't separate RH Pull, or LH slap etc... So when you see OPS+ with a ballpark adjustment, Rice's value is actually a small tick lower.
RICE VS. Mattingly interesting debate. How dominant were they in OPS+? Top five and ten finishes for both...
Rice 1,4,5,6,6, Mattingly 1,1,3,6
Career OPS+ are basically identical.
Defense? Mattingly a top defensive 1B, Rice eehh. Value of position probably puts it close to equal though.
If I were to delve deeper I would say it was probably a toss up between the two. I don't feel like delving deeper, but on the surface it looks that way.
Rice gets waaay more support for the Hall than Mattingly. So I don't see a NY bias there for the Hall for Mattingly.
Munson? Forget the what if part... Read the top paragraph of this post, and then switch stadiums for Fisk and Munson in the 70's. When the ballpark effects are used the proper way, then Munson may actually edge Fisk in hitting numbers. Don't put that into stone just yet, but that could be an intersting looksie. I believe Munson the superior defender going by memory, but without looking at anything right now.
Munson deserving for the Hall? That depends on your definition of what should be in the Hall. Those definitions always differ and it always mucks up Hall of Fame debate. Munson certainly has a case. I posted some numbers about a year ago, and he wasn't far off contemporary Hall of famers of his time. Remember, his numbers as a catcher carry much more weight than a first baseman with similar numbers. I believe the end result was that he was a good candidate but that he fell a tad short when measuring the value he created compared to others of his time. To dismiss outright was not accurate. If there was/is a New York bias towards the Hall, then it certainly didn't show for him,or for Mattingly.
I can definitely appreciate 2001 being more painful for Yankee fans. Just as 1975 or even 1995 was more painful for me than 86. Most painful loss does not always equate with biggest choke.
Well, at least I know now how some (not all, thankfully) Yank fans will be dealing with 2004. Denial. "Oh, that wasn't so bad - 2001 against Arizona was worse." "1986 was a bigger choke, you know." "It wasn't that bad, because it wasn't in a World Series".
Wow - I always tried to imagine how I would feel if the Sox were up 3-0 like that, and lost to their most bitter arch-rival of the past century - but I guess it's not that big a deal, really.
It's pointless to continue to argue something that only Yankee fans don't seem to get. The rest of the world will go on knowing the significance of 2004, while some (again, not all) Yank fans can continue to live on, blissfully unaware of reality, inside their little boxes.
Remember that 2004 is much more significant to Red Sox fans than Yankee fans...is that why Red Sox fans dont understand why Yankee fans feel what they do about 2004? No doubt for Yankee fans the 2004 playoffs really sucked but as a Yankee fan I can accept losing in the playoffs much easier than losing the world series. Im sure I dont speak for every Yankee fan...just my take.
Not once did I say a rivalry existed between NY and Arizona. I merely pointed out to the Diamondbacks was more painful. Did losing the 2004 ALCS suck? hell yeah it did, but the 2001 World Series left me more HURT than any series loss in recent memory. I was more ANGRY that the Yanks lost to Boston in the 2004 ALCS. Can you appreciate the difference?
Heck, I would put the 2003 loss to the Marlins right there with the 2004 ALCS loss because that's a series we should've won. After the comeback we had against Boston in the 2003 ALCS, being up 2-1 on the Marlins with a chance to go up 3-1 until Jeff Weaver, the 2003 WS loss was damn hard to swallow, but again, this is a Yankee fans perspective. I'm sure Boston fans will want a pound of flesh and demand the 2004 ALCS was the end all of all Yankee losses, but sorry, it's not. Not for this Yankee fan that is.
You guys are defending a claim that no one is making. We get it. You cried in 2001, you cried in 2003, and you cried again in 2004. No one is doubting it - Yankee fans have been doing a lot of crying lately.
The point, the only point, is that the 2004 ALCS was the biggest choke in sports history. That's all.
"Yankees 2004 was the biggest choke in sports history" "No, the Red Sox 1986 was worse"
"Yankees 2004 was the biggest choke in sports history" "No, 2001 was painful"
What's next?
"Yankees 2004 was the biggest choke in sports history" "No, the Bruins stink"
It's like you guys are too afraid and/or traumatized to acknowledge 2004 ALCS actually took place. Or you realize there's just no logical way to claim and prove it was not the biggest choke ever.
Moving on... Giambi and Sheffield are clearly both still on roids.
I havent seen any Yankee fans crying here. I have seen Yankee haters doing their damnest to make 2004 playoffs the end of the world for Yankee fans...maybe it is for a select few but not for most Yankee fans. If Giambi and Shef or still on roids, then I would guess that Manny, Ortiz, and Schilling are still cross-dressing. Off to work I go so now you get a break from this Yankee fan
Actually, the anti-Yankee sentiment is right. Last year was the biggest choke in baseball history. If there is one team I like to beat, it is the Red Sox. And the Yankees had the Sox beat and let them get away. It took all those years to build the curse and now its gone. Baseball is different for it.
Yes, it wasn't the World Series, but the ALCS in 2003 and 2004 was the World Series for these teams.
Comments
<< <i>
It's not so much about Boston/NY, as it is despising everything the yanks stand for...greed, east coast media bias, undeserved fame. You name it, the Yanks got it.
>>
You're so blinded by your hatred of the Yankees that it's pathetic.
Greed? East coast bias? undeserved fame? Sounds to me you're talking about the Boston Red Sox as well!
I think they've spent a pretty penny or two on payroll, no? How many homegrown players do they have? Schilling, Damon, Ramirez, Foulke and company? hello?
You want east coast bias (media coverage)? How many hundreds of books were written about the 2004 Boston Red Sox?
Undeserved fame? Can you name a more overrated franchise than Boston? They win one championship in 100 years and you'd think they invented the wheel! Hell, the Florida Marlins have double the championships Boston has in the last 75 years, but you wouldn't know it from the coverage Boston got BEFORE the 2004 season, would you?
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Yes the Red Sox have spent money - they have to in order to compete. They play in a division with the yanks. But let's not forget: the red sox spent $130 million this year, $70 million LESS than the yanks. That difference is more than many teams entire payroll.
The red sox have not been completely futile or unsuccessful, they just hadn't won it all. They've had plenty of postseason appearances.
I think *your* hate of all things Red Sox is pretty comical myself
54 AT BATS
14 HITS
.259 AVERAGE
Thurmon Munson - Postseason batting
129 AT BATS
46 HITS
.357 AVERAGE
Fisk couldn't shine Munson's shoes in the post season. NO CONTEST!>>
AGREED
Fisk could not carry Munson's jokestrap (edited and mispelled intentionally for censors). Fisk had a .269 Mediocre Lifetime Batting Average against Munson's GREAT .292 Batting Average too. Sure Fisk had many more Home Runs but he also played for 24 years versus Munson's 10 years. Fisk gets credit for longevity of a medicore variety.
$85 million payroll and you're 22 games under .500??! Do yourself a favor and quit talking about payroll when your team is in the top third in salary and one of the worst teams around.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Biggest baseball choke ever was when the 2001 Seattle Mourners won an AL record breaking 116 games and proceeded to lose the AL Division Series to the Yankees in 5 games. Now that was one big massive choke. At least in 2004, the Red Sox were heavily favored to beat the Yankees.
Why is this topic in the Sports Card and Memorabilia forum anyway?
<< <i>Biggest baseball choke ever was when the 2001 Seattle Mourners won an AL record breaking 116 games and proceeded to lose the AL Division Series to the Yankees in 5 games. Now that was one big massive choke. At least in 2004, the Red Sox were heavily favored to beat the Yankees. >>
No! No! No!
I really didn't want to chime in here but - the above statement is ridiculous. Just because the team was "heavily favored" doesn't mean a thing. The sheer magnitude of coming back from the 3-0 deficit and winning 4 postseason games in a row (and lets not forget celebrating this feat on the Yankee field!) is far and away the all-time greatest sports collapse. When the Mariners had that great season in 2001 and made it to the postseason, the records are wiped clean, and all teams started 0-0 again. You can try and try to divert attention from 2004 and the monumental flop that the Yanks performed, but there will be many, many people that will remind you of it.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>I don't know...I think the Red Sox choke job in 1986 to the Mets was the worst ever. Certainly tops the 2003 Red Sox/Cubs and 2004 Yankee ALCS collapses in my opinion. >>
haha spoken like a truly delusional yankee fan!
The Sox blew game 6 and lost game 7....the yankees lost FOUR games in a row. You must have taken some bad drugs that made you forget that all important fact.
<< I don't know...I think the Red Sox choke job in 1986 to the Mets was the worst ever. Certainly tops the 2003 Red Sox/Cubs and 2004 Yankee ALCS collapses in my opinion.>>
DaBigHurt, I think you are correct about the 1986 Red Sox. 1 strike away from the World Series ring, and the TV network (I think it was NBC) was giving closing credits and a Roger Clemens had been named as the World Series MVP.
<< <i>I don't know...I think the Red Sox choke job in 1986 to the Mets was the worst ever. Certainly tops the 2003 Red Sox/Cubs and 2004 Yankee ALCS collapses in my opinion. >>
What? Truly, I never thought I would ever see anyone try and "top" last years Yank collapse. The Sox were up 3-2 in 1986, and as mentioned, lost 2 heartbreaking games. How many times has a team been up 3-2 in a series and then lost it? Too many to count. How many times has a team been up 3-0, and then lost it? I'll remind you both - once!
That's all you need to know.
<< <i>The Sox blew game 6 and lost game 7....the yankees lost FOUR games in a row. You must have taken some bad drugs that made you forget that all important fact. >>
You simply don't know what you're talking about.
The 2004 ALCS games 4 and 5 were VERY tightly contested. At no point, did you have the Red Sox totally out of those games. The Red Sox never 'came back from the dead' in those games. The Yankees and their fans never felt at ease in game 4 and 5 because the Red Sox were always in striking distance.
Ask Boston fans how many of them had already started imagining how they were going to celebrate winning the 1986 World Series when Gary Carter had two strikes on him with two outs and none on with the Red Sox up 2 runs that fateful October night. Nuff said!
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<<1 strike away from the World Series ring, and the TV network (I think it was NBC) was giving closing credits and a Roger Clemens had been named as the World Series MVP.>>
That was the most pathetic thing I have everv seen in sports, and although I don't beleive in curses, it almost got me to believe.
CTsoxfan, you were probably in diapers in 1986. LOL
<<The 2004 ALCS games 4 and 5 were VERY tightly contested. At no point, did you have the Red Sox totally out of those games. The Red Sox never 'came back from the dead' in those games. The Yankees and their fans never felt at ease in game 4 and 5 because the Red Sox were always in striking distance.
Ask Boston fans how many of them had already started imagining how they were going to celebrate winning the 1986 World Series when Gary Carter had two strikes on him with two outs and none on with the Red Sox up 2 runs that fateful October night. Nuff said!>>
How correct you are my friend.
That had to be worse than 1978, the year of the Bucky.
1) I think it has been proven that no matter how much you spend on your payroll a world series is not guaranteed. So please, lets get past that arguement...holds no water. To some of us, it just means money poorly spent...::cough!:: :: Kevin Brown!:: ::cough!::
2) 1986 World Series IS the all time biggest choke BECAUSE it was the world series and not a playoff series.
3) Red Sox fans take ONE World Series win and they think that it wipes out all of history! Stop living in the past? 2004 IS the past so Yankees fans have different rules when it comes to defending their team?
4) Time will tell if Designated Hitter David Ortiz is just another Mo Vaughn. Lets not forget that when Giambi got his MVP, I believe he was pretty much their everyday 1st basemen out on the field. Im not sure if that same thing goes for Frank Thomas or not.
5) The Red Sox will ALWAYS suck!!!! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA....sorry, just had to throw that one in there
6) I cant wait for this final weekend where the Yanks SPANK those Sox!!!
Just my two cents!
But it wasn't two baseball teams. It was the Yankees and Red Sox for crying out loud. The curse was on the line. Another year of heartache and another heart wrenching loss to the Yankees. That is what made it the choke of all chokes. Losing four straight to the Sox and the "curse" along with it.
The 2004 ALCS games 4 and 5 were VERY tightly contested. At no point, did you have the Red Sox totally out of those games. The Red Sox never 'came back from the dead' in those games. The Yankees and their fans never felt at ease in game 4 and 5 because the Red Sox were always in striking distance.
Apparently Yankee fans have such faith in the great Mariano Rivera that a 1 run lead in the ninth represents "striking distance" for the opponent.
The Red Sox were not just down 3-0, they were down 3 games and 24 outs to 0 games and 3 outs. To try to belittle what happened is ridiculous. Any intelligent Yankee fan (oxymoron) I know has recognized this. Any of you disputing it either can't really believe what you're saying, didn't actually watch the games, or just don't know much about baseball in general.
For those of you who aren't Red Sox fans, you're never going to accept it. Even those of you who are but weren't at the games, you might not fully understand the magnitude of the 9th inning of game 4 and every single moment and pitch that followed in that game and the next. Those two games were the greatest 48 hour span of baseball ever played, and represent the greatest comeback in the history of sports. What followed the last two games in NY, completed the greatest collapse and choke in the history of sports. The series gave us both. Deal with it.
These comparisions to 1986 are ludicris postings by the baseball-ignorant just trying to needle the Sox fans. They're not even remotely comparable.
And finally, Gemmy10.
Roger Clemens had been named as the World Series MVP
Really???? Hm, I don't recall that. You know, especially since at the time he was 0-0 with 11 innings pitched in the WS. Strange pick for MVP. So either you're a liar or a moron. Either way, shut up and let the grown-ups talk.
I said I believe the 1986 Red Sox choke job was the worst I saw and gave my reasoning. Just because YOU want to exorcise a lifetime of Red Sox futility on the 2004 season doesn't change what happened in 1986.
I don't remember Mariano throwing a wild pitch to let the tying run score or someone on the Yankee team allowing a slow roller to go under their legs to lose the game.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
I agree that if you are talking post-season chokes then the 2004 Yans/Sox is in the top 3...and arguably the biggest post season choke...other than the following...
When it comes to being the World Champs...THAT is the series of series. That series settles it all. Biggest World Series choke is the 86 Sox/Mets, thus the reason its the #1 all time choke.
But thats just my opinion...so settle down!
The only other time they gave it away was in '01 and that was purely a function of the Yankee arrogance. Had Torre bothered to go over a bunt situation with Mariano, he doesn't throw the ball away and takes the easy play at first. No way does Womack get a hit with two outs and the tying run on base. Even if he does the D'Backs bullpen was spent. Had they needed to battle in extra innings the Yanks would have ended up winning the series.
Please, once and for all, I'll let you all in on a little secret:
It's amusing (and frustrating) to us when you all bring up 1986 and game 6 and Buckner.. Seriously. It's about as relevant as 1946 or 48 or 49.. Contrary to what Fever Pitch, stupid HBO specials, and FOX promos teach you, we don't all sit around punishing ourselves lamenting the futility of the Red Sox. Really. All the moments have passed long ago, just as 2004 has passed. If you want to spew off about a ball going through Bill Buckner's legs 20 years later, go write a book, argue about it on T.V. But talking to real fans, it doesn't get you very far in the argument. Seriously. Try again.
Here's some perspective for you to ignore..
The night of game 6 1986 World Series sucked. Just as game 7 in 75 and 67 had been equally horrible days. Then it passed. The Sox blew it again in game 7 to the Mets and lost the series to a (much favored) team of coke heads. They were close in game 6, and lead in game 7, but couldn't close the deal. You want to call it a choke? I don't know. How do we define a choke in sports? They had victory, and they blew it. Certainly. But then came game 7. Was game 7 the choke because they lost the series having been up 3-2? So game 6 was the choke because they lost even though they didn't lose the series. It's like idiots who mistakenly believe the Sox would've won if Buckner fielded the ball and beat Wilson to first.
What is the choke? Is it that they didn't win game 6? Well, ok, but they could've won game 7. Can an underdog even by definition choke, since they weren't supposed to get crushed in the first place? And on the road in the NL park?
I honestly just don't see it. Of course, I'm just a fan remembering every moment and every emotion about everything that happened.
Everything that happened after game 3 of the 2004 ALCS defines choke -
Yankees steamrolling the Sox, blow out in game 3
Derek Lowe starting for the Sox in game 4
Rivera on the mound with a lead in the 9th in game 4
Gordon puking the bullpen before coming in to give up a HR
Returing home to NY 3-2
Facing an injured Schilling in game 6
Trying to cheat in game 6
Leaving tying runs on in 9th game 6
Running Kevin Brown out to start game 7
Getting killed in game 7
Start to finish, over the course of 4 games the Yankees choked in every way possible to lose the ALCS they had been three outs away from owning. They did it at home, they did it on the road. They choked in pitching, hitting, baserunning, managing and umpiring. They choked in every possible way.
So the Sox may've choked away an inning, after which they didn't lose anything, and still had a chance to win. The Yankees choked away 4 straight games, two at home, all started with the so called greatest "closer" in baseball history standing on the mound in the 9th with a 1 run lead, to ultimately lose an ALCS they were initially dominating.
Look at the people who in this thread desperately try to say the 2004 yankes weren't the biggest chokes ever:
dabighurt (guess his name really fit when the yanks choked away in 2004), spamalot, yankeeno, rbd....ALL YANKEE FANS. Bias much? What's it like to live in a world so detatched from reality? Why don't you guys listen to some experts (and no, the YES network doesn't count) and find out what they feel is the greatest choke of all time. Then, when you've had your yankee lobotomy reversed, come back here and listen to reason.
How does one compare losing 2 games in a row (1986 boston) to losing FOUR in a row, and accomplishing something that's never been done before (2004 yankees), and worse, doing it against your rival? How much money did yankee 'fans' spend on therapy erasing those memories?
That one series seems to define the Red Sox to most Red Sox fans...or so it seems.
And why do non-Yankee fans always resort to name calling? LOL
<< <i>A good example that is often brought up...
That one series seems to define the Red Sox to most Red Sox fans...or so it seems. >>
Well it is the most recent...so why not bring it up?
Yankee fans always bring up the 2003 when Boone hit the home run....
I cannot wait for the upcoming series. I hope it means something.
<< <i>Bruce Hurst was to be named MVP not Clemens. >>
Just another example of yankee fans trying to revise history and make the story that much more 'worthy' of being told!
I remember the Saturday night game, early in that series, when the Yanks were pounding the Sox - and as I sat quietly watching the game up to its bitter end hoping we could at least score enough to make it close, even as diehard a Sox fan as I have been for almost 30 years, I never thought we would come back to win. Neither did anyone in the world of sports, no matter what team they root for. All the elements came into play, all the stars lined up properly. You will certainly see other great comebacks in your lifetime in the world of sports, but I can't imagine ever seeing another one that wiped away so much frustration in one shot like that one.
Deal with it Yankee fans - denial is just going to make it worse.
<< <i>As much as Yankee fans hated to see that happen...I think most Yankee fans take the loss in stride. I believe that eats at Red Sox fans...or the ones that I personally know. So keep holding on to that series for dear life. There are no balls to blow up, no houses to tear down and burn...will the voodoo last or will the curse be back stronger than ever? How many of you yankee haters have your voodoo dolls and needles out? Keep stabbing!
Yankee fans as a whole won't even admit that loss happened, or that the series loss was the greatest choke in all of sports history.
'Yankee fans take the loss in stride"? hahaha
sure they do!
That series would've been the last games for Brosius and O'neill and would've made it four straight titles. Ask Yankee fans and I think they'll tell you 2001 was the most painful, especially in the context of what happened September 11th.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Why?
Because it was the WORLD SERIES, not that playoffs. It was for the big tamali!
The first numbe is Rice's Home Slugging Percentage, the second was his road SLG%. Fenway was the best hitters park in baseball during Rice's time. It was especially better for RH pull hitters, and left handed opposite field hitters. When a ballpark adjustment is made, it only accounts the entire realm of hitters and doesn't separate RH Pull, or LH slap etc... So when you see OPS+ with a ballpark adjustment, Rice's value is actually a small tick lower.
RICE VS. Mattingly interesting debate. How dominant were they in OPS+? Top five and ten finishes for both...
Rice 1,4,5,6,6,
Mattingly 1,1,3,6
Career OPS+ are basically identical.
Defense? Mattingly a top defensive 1B, Rice eehh. Value of position probably puts it close to equal though.
If I were to delve deeper I would say it was probably a toss up between the two. I don't feel like delving deeper, but on the surface it looks that way.
Rice gets waaay more support for the Hall than Mattingly. So I don't see a NY bias there for the Hall for Mattingly.
Munson? Forget the what if part... Read the top paragraph of this post, and then switch stadiums for Fisk and Munson in the 70's. When the ballpark effects are used the proper way, then Munson may actually edge Fisk in hitting numbers. Don't put that into stone just yet, but that could be an intersting looksie. I believe Munson the superior defender going by memory, but without looking at anything right now.
Munson deserving for the Hall? That depends on your definition of what should be in the Hall. Those definitions always differ and it always mucks up Hall of Fame debate. Munson certainly has a case. I posted some numbers about a year ago, and he wasn't far off contemporary Hall of famers of his time. Remember, his numbers as a catcher carry much more weight than a first baseman with similar numbers. I believe the end result was that he was a good candidate but that he fell a tad short when measuring the value he created compared to others of his time. To dismiss outright was not accurate. If there was/is a New York bias towards the Hall, then it certainly didn't show for him,or for Mattingly.
Wow - I always tried to imagine how I would feel if the Sox were up 3-0 like that, and lost to their most bitter arch-rival of the past century - but I guess it's not that big a deal, really.
It's pointless to continue to argue something that only Yankee fans don't seem to get. The rest of the world will go on knowing the significance of 2004, while some (again, not all) Yank fans can continue to live on, blissfully unaware of reality, inside their little boxes.
Unfortunately, nobody here is talking about Mattingly or Rice or Munson or any of that. But I appreciate the infusion of sabermatrician nonsense.
Not once did I say a rivalry existed between NY and Arizona. I merely pointed out to the Diamondbacks was more painful. Did losing the 2004 ALCS suck? hell yeah it did, but the 2001 World Series left me more HURT than any series loss in recent memory. I was more ANGRY that the Yanks lost to Boston in the 2004 ALCS. Can you appreciate the difference?
Heck, I would put the 2003 loss to the Marlins right there with the 2004 ALCS loss because that's a series we should've won. After the comeback we had against Boston in the 2003 ALCS, being up 2-1 on the Marlins with a chance to go up 3-1 until Jeff Weaver, the 2003 WS loss was damn hard to swallow, but again, this is a Yankee fans perspective. I'm sure Boston fans will want a pound of flesh and demand the 2004 ALCS was the end all of all Yankee losses, but sorry, it's not. Not for this Yankee fan that is.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
The point, the only point, is that the 2004 ALCS was the biggest choke in sports history. That's all.
"Yankees 2004 was the biggest choke in sports history"
"No, the Red Sox 1986 was worse"
"Yankees 2004 was the biggest choke in sports history"
"No, 2001 was painful"
What's next?
"Yankees 2004 was the biggest choke in sports history"
"No, the Bruins stink"
It's like you guys are too afraid and/or traumatized to acknowledge 2004 ALCS actually took place. Or you realize there's just no logical way to claim and prove it was not the biggest choke ever.
Moving on... Giambi and Sheffield are clearly both still on roids.
If Giambi and Shef or still on roids, then I would guess that Manny, Ortiz, and Schilling are still cross-dressing.
Off to work I go so now you get a break from this Yankee fan
<< <i>...Heck, I would put the 2003 loss to the Marlins right there with the 2004 ALCS loss because that's a series we should've won.... >>
How exactly should the Yanks have won this series? They were lucky to tie up Game 4 in the top of the ninth and were dominated in games five and six.
The Yanks hitters excepting Jeter and Bernie were a no show. Of course Beckett and his smoke might have had a little to do with it.
Yes, it wasn't the World Series, but the ALCS in 2003 and 2004 was the World Series for these teams.