Dealers not using the Sheldon scale
tjkillian
Posts: 5,578 ✭✭✭
In various coin periodicals, dealers will have advertisements where they state they do not use the "Numerical Grading Scale". They use the archaic terms of "BU", "Sliders", Select BU. You call them on the phone and they reiterate that they don't use the "Numerical Grading Scale". Is this just their relectance to use the modern terminology or are they trying to sneak by the uninformed user by selling overgraded coins by making up their own scale as they go along?
Tom
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I know a very fine coin when I see one. But to then break it down into 20, 25, 30 or 35 begins to get ridiculous IMO. VF & VF+ is all I consider. (and what about 21, 22, 23 etc.
For MS grades it is getting even more ridiculous because it is now each and every point and now we have those that claim they can differentiate between low, mid and high of these single point MS grades. This effectively means that there are 31 MS grades (I count 1 MS70 grade)
Of course, it's ridiculous by my standards. But if it is important to someone else that's their decision. I think of grades as ranges. I know when a coin meets that range and when a coin is better than just meeting that range but not quite good enough for the next range and that works just fine for me.
Joe.
Edit: Spelling (any others?)
Gary
Their Gem BU = our MS63 or so
Their Select BU = our nice AU58
Their "Slider" or "about Unc." = our whizzed EF
and so on..
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The above is rediculus. I have seen this a few times. Either it is FBL or it's not. Paying for a percentage of bell lines, I don't think so.
As far as the current grading scale goes, I like it.
PURPLE!
<< <i>They're just looking to screw you over, plain and simple. >>
That pretty much sums it up.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
A gem coin = MS65 = full strke! It does not get any more complicated then that!
I have hopes that such a EDS club or organization will eventually surface that included a grading service that would adhere to such restrictions. I would join that club in a second! But how do we do that, I don't know. Would we need a 12 step grading critera that members would need to abide by, I think so!
Perhaps we need a grading coins forum! And hopefully not here, but rather at a neutral online site!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
The Sheldon system has become so common, that there is really no need not to use it on U.S. coins.
And now that prices are beginning to pop up for MS-60, MS-62, MS-63,64,65 and one down the line, the use of "words only" really does not cut it any more.
At the same time, those who put decimal points on the Sheldon grading numbers are not be trusted either. We have enough problems getting the WHOLE NUMBERS right.
They just old
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since 8/1/6
I do not believe that it will ever replace adjectival grading, as no two coins are alike, therefore, in actuality, i.e., no two 63's are equal.
I do not use numerical grading as my primary standard for my descriptions, and would urge readers to not uniformly condemn those of us that do not use numerical descriptions primarily.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
How did collectors survive before the Sheldon system?
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>I would love it if numerical grading went out the window and we went back to adjectival descriptions. Or maybe reduce the grading numbers by (at least) half and combine it with written descriptions. >>
I've been saying that for a looong time, and it seems very few are listening. Authenticity and technical grade (based on wear level only) is all I look to TPG's for, and I wish it was all they did. I determine for myself how 'eye appealing' or not the coin is. Unfortunately, most sellers see that MS65 on the slab, and insist on getting '65 money' for an ugly (imo) coin. Call it simply MS (or G, F, AU) and let 'eye appeal' be strictly up to negotiation between the buyer and seller.
Funny, I don't think it'll ever happen, 'cause an awful lot of 'blah' or even just 'ehh' coins command serious money cause of those little numbers. Take 'em away, and try and convince buyers then that "this UNC (current 64 level) is $1K, and this UNC (current 65 level) is $15K". It won't happen very often, or easily, will it? Only the truly superior pieces would command those kind of price differentials, which is as it should be.
<< <i>Has anyone else noticed that the average long-time dealer HATES slabs? I see eyes roll when they ask me if I'm selling anything and I pull a couple slabs outta my pocket. You know why? Because THEY CAN'T DICK ME then. The age old game of buying at a lower grade and selling at a higher grade. Slabs and the Sheldon scale aren't perfect, but they afford the greatest risk-reduction for an average collector like myself. >>
And, unfortunately (sort of) this alone negates much of what I said. I may gripe about slabs, but I still buy 'em (and crack 'em
<< <i>Has anyone else noticed that the average long-time dealer HATES slabs? I see eyes roll when they ask me if I'm selling anything and I pull a couple slabs outta my pocket. You know why? Because THEY CAN'T DICK ME then. The age old game of buying at a lower grade and selling at a higher grade. Slabs and the Sheldon scale aren't perfect, but they afford the greatest risk-reduction for an average collector like myself. >>
So true. So true. In fact one dealer I know sells slabs with the grade covered by tape so you can't see the grade on the slab.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Shouldn't a coin that they call a F-11, really be a VG coin. It's crazy!
I often disagree with what the encapsulating company offers as their opinion.
I love coins!!!
I purchase both coins that I like and coins that I feel that I can make a profit on, because I am in the coin business, 24/7.
I have been a professional numismatist for over 40 years and am certainly entitled to my professional opinion, just as the TPG's are entitled to theirs.
I do not try to abuse sellers who offer me slabs, but if I do not think that I will be able to make a profit, obviously, I will not purchase it.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Shouldn't a coin that they call a F-11, really be a VG coin. It's crazy!
All #'s are valid, even decimals. However, in keeping with Sheldon's original system, F-12 was the lowest grade for Fine, so an 11 coin should be referred to as VG-11.
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I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>Is this just their relectance to use the modern terminology or are they trying to sneak by the uninformed user by selling overgraded coins by making up their own scale as they go along? >>
Perhaps a little of both. Depends on the dealer.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
<< <i>They're just looking to screw you over, plain and simple.
Gary >>
NoEbayAuctionsForNow
Want to add; whenever I attend a show and my luck starts going bad in finding a fair deal with the first few tables, my attitude will tell me, the heck with it, I just don't buy anything, I'll just take my money some place else and leave. I have no problems doing that, I'm not overpaying for a coin that's overgraded and not fully struck!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
We all have standard ways that we communicate. If you want to make up your own, knock yourself out. The Sheldon scale is a universal scale that allows most of us to communicate as to the quality of our coins. If you want to use something else, then don't expect me to buy from you. I can see how these dealers could have had a problem with the Sheldon scale when it first came out, but it is time to get over it.
Just my humble opinion.
Collecting:
Conder tokens
19th & 20th Century coins from Great Britain and the Realm
<< <i>The Sheldon scale is hardly universal. Take a walk on the darkside sometime - it is not used by the rest of the world. >>
I think it was pretty obvious from the original post that the comment was on dealers that could use the Sheldon scale because it does apply, but choose not to use it.
<< <i>How many times have any of you come across dealers asking for VF to AU money for seated and barber material that has less then a full Liberty? I recall a dealer wanting $125 for a common 1875 twenty center and it had half a liberty and I countered $60 then $75 then to he!! with it!
Leo >>
$125 for that coin is a good price. You cannot compare them to other seated coinage.
<< <i>
<< <i>How many times have any of you come across dealers asking for VF to AU money for seated and barber material that has less then a full Liberty? I recall a dealer wanting $125 for a common 1875 twenty center and it had half a liberty and I countered $60 then $75 then to he!! with it!
Leo >>
$125 for that coin is a good price. You cannot compare them to other seated coinage. >>
For a 1875, yes but I meant for a 1875-S, back in 1998 likely! Paying $75 for a $50 t0 $60 VG-F 1875-S with half the liberty showing! I remember asking the seller if I could take it over to the ANACS table and get their opinion but he said no! And he had about a dozen of them! Back then I went by the book and still do today!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I think there is some truth to that. Many dealer don't like dealing with knowledgable collectors who also have a grading expert's opinion with them.
Most raw coins are still described by words--Stack's and other auction companies have retained their use. Nothing wrong with this protocal.
BUT, no coin should be purchased sight unseen, for the learning process and decision to buy depends on what you, as the buyer, sees.
I would neither buy a MS 63 or a choice brilliant uncirculated bust half, without viewing the coin.
So what's the problem? Old cleanings, rim damage, splotchy toning...and a myriad of other distractions can be solved to a degree by certification. But not all. As the TPG's vary greatly in what they are willing to slab.
So buyer beware. There are very few totally unbiased sellers of coins, slabbed or otherwise. Best recent example was a 1796 half in NGC 64 viewed at the ANA. This coin would have been better described with words, as the strike was nice, but the adjustments marks on the reverse took the coin way down in my opinion.
My idea would have been very choice uncirculated, with serious adjustmernts limiting any higher grade.
Numbers don't tell the entire story, in many cases.
K S
The LIBERTY on 20 centers is raised and not incused like all the other seated coins.
Joe.
Maybe I'm just old.
I didn't make up G, VG, F, VF, EF. AU, UNC. This was the standard when I started collecting, the numbers were "never" used (at least I never saw them or heard them referred to).
The problem IMO is trying to be specific and come up with that 1 number that represents the grade of a coin. For a lot of coins that is possible, but there are a lot more coins that IMO are not represented properly by a single grade number. Therefore a lot of times the "new" number grading system IMO incorrectly assigns a single grade number to a coin that really needs more description to classify it properly. There are many coins that the obverse and reverse are two different grades. To choose a single number IMO is a mistake if you are truly "grading" the coin and not "pricing" the coin as I feel the number system has degenerated into.
Joe.