Which is worse? Ripping sellers or ripping buyers?
topstuf
Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
No flames as this is a survey. (puttin on asbestos anyhow)
But..... In your opinion is it worse to rip coin sellers by lowball offers or to rip buyers with deceptive ads?
But..... In your opinion is it worse to rip coin sellers by lowball offers or to rip buyers with deceptive ads?
0
Comments
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>On the whole, unethical behavior is intolerable no matter who is the victim. >>
Ah, but if the victim is a dealer the behavior is counter-balanced.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Besides, buyers have "caveat emptor!," but sellers lack a catchy Latin phrase to guide them. >>
I am proud to say that I learned the meaning of that Latin phrase not in the hallowed halls of some fine educational institution, but rather from a episode of The Brady Bunch.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Besides, buyers have "caveat emptor!," but sellers lack a catchy Latin phrase to guide them. >>
Caveat venditor?
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Just because it's usually on a grand scale and IMO, causes FAR more harm to the hobby to find that your initial "hyped" purchases were.......... AWFUL.
(Now where's that newspaper ad? The one with the LAST Morgan dollars?)
<< <i>Which is worse? Ripping sellers or ripping buyers? >>
Depends whether you are the "Rippee" or the Rippor"
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
A seller may have bought 'properly' enough to sustain a rip without sustaining (as much of) a financial loss anyway. A ripped buyer will have a hard time recovering financially during a sale no matter how generous the offer is. Ripping a buyer is double-edged, terrible on the way in and not much better on the way out.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
In the first case you're misrepresenting something you presumably know it's not; in the second you're merely withholding information you know but the seller doesn't. For that reason, I think ripping a buyer is a bit more contemptible.
I think people find it more revolting dealers ripping buyers than some collector bragging about picking off some dealer. A sort of double standard.
A collector picks off something from a dealer, upgrades it (much higher MV) and comes in here bragging his know it all spiel - he’s a hero to a lot of them. A dealer doing the same would be trashed out.
We live in an age where anyone can google search any coin, and learn its value if they want to put in the time and work.
I agree that morally, no one should be ripping off anyone (either party), but at the same time, I also feel people who are willing to put in the time and effort to do the work, should be rewarded for their efforts.
When I go to coin shows I always have some items to sell. I find the honest dealers that way. I offer something for sale and if they lowball me I move on and don't buy from them. If they offer a fair price I sell to them and buy new material from them. There are a lot of dealers that are honest, Theres also the ones trying to rip you off. This is the way I weed them out.
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I found one dealer that I have seen at multiple shows now. I'm happy to see him and he's happy to see me. Fair transactions for both of us and he likes the new coins he gets to put in his case.
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So a grieving widow who doesn't take the time to become an expert on varieties gets what she's asking for if she gets ripped?
That's a good method to find a dealer.
boston
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Bad transactions with : nobody to date
The widow selling her deceased husband's coin collection frequently assumes that coin dealers are professionals and are ethical. It's unfortunate that many coin dealers will take advantage of their naivety. To say that they should become expert coin experts to keep from getting ripped off is disingenuous.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I agree and believe that the dealer has an ethical obligation to treat the customer fairly.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Here is my opinion on this matter: If somebody comes into my establishment and seeks value for their coins, IMO, its only ethical to shoot them straight, and provide them proper value. However, if i am at a show and looking around and see something that i think is way underpriced and they are a seller, I just buy it and move on. If its somebody I know well, sometimes I have casually mentioned it to them.
What if the way-underpriced coin in the dealer’s case is common as a P-mint issue, far more valuable with a mintmark, the coin bears a mintmark but is incorrectly marked as a P-mint? Or, as another example, the date is listed incorrectly on the flip and the actual date of the coin is a much more valuable one? What do you do under those circumstances?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@jdimmick Be careful. This sounds like a trick question.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Not at all.
My point is that sometimes, it's obvious that the seller has made a listing mistake - and I'm not talking about one involving an obscure or difficult-to-detect variety. I know not everyone agrees, but I feel that in such instances, there's no "meeting of the minds" and that the buyer shouldn't take advantage of the situation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
The correct answer is "both." They're both worse than not ripping someone. The exception to this rule is when two rippers engage in a trade, both overestimating the value of their items equally. Then, their avarice cancels out.
PS. This thread is old enough to drink in some counties.
New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set
Depends. When working in an open market against dealers. Buyers make no assertions other than I will pay the price you ask. My line is when people take advantage or misrepresent. If a dealer made a mistake it is the human thing to show some grace, if they are simply ignorant to a variety or market trends that is really on them for stepping into the ring. Knowledgeable buyers be they dealers or opportunistic collectors who deceive and under quote / misrepresent as to
exploit a seller who makes no claims to be an expert is very close to stealing in my book. That novice was asking for two services evaluation and transaction. By cheating in the evaluation service to maximize your side of the transaction it makes you a liar and a thief. No dealer has ever asked a buyer for both services.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Ripping off the sellers, especially widows who don't know anything, is worse.
When I lived in Boston, a well known dealer related the story of a widow who had a collection that was worth $100,000. At the time that was like having a $2 million dollar collection today. The collection was in 10 boxes (slabs did not exist then). A well-known dealer, who is long since dead and shall remain nameless, told her he would buy it in pieces. He paid $10,000 for one box.
As it turned out, he cherry picks all the good stuff and left her with the common stuff. It was not the sort of thing when each box of coins was $10,000.
That to me is worse than ripping off buyers. I've been ripped off as a buyer, especially when I was young. I learned something, at least. When you are widow and just want to get out, ripping her off under those circumstances is worse.
Ripping is bad, uhmkay.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Mark,
Good question, hard to answer, depends on situation, but in all honesty, why would it be any different if I saw where the seller at a show had the mintmark listed incorrectly vs having a variety incorrect or not noted at all. If I buy it and keep walking knowing darn well I just scored a huge variety you'r still ripping the seller ?
Over the past years I have alerted a seller about a MM on several instances, but 100% probably not
I agree that it depends upon the specifics of the situation. I just prefer to err on the side of disclosure to someone who has made a mistake.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I would just say that honesty is the best policy.
This week as a seller I had a buyer try to pull a charge back on a delivered item without any communication beforehand. Also had some rare returns, where the seller has to pay for the return even if the buyer was wrong.
Can I still take the 5th?
What's the statute of limitations?
An example of the devil being in the details… Whether buyer or seller, “ripping off” sounds bad and is! bad. However, taking advantage of superior knowledge may or may not be… It all depends on the specifics of the transaction and the relevant numismatic “knowledge” of the participants…
Buyer beware/seller beware. No fault as either should be educated enough not to get ripped off.
Far too many people who have been involved in this industry and getting “educated” for years have been ripped off. To expect or require novices to be educated enough to avoid the same fate is unreasonable, unrealistic and cold.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
To quote:
P.T. Barnum, One born every minute.
With graded coins, the ethics appear to be more black or white.
With a large collection of high quality raw coins it gets complicated. Even if a dealer is paid to do an appraisal, most likely the evaluation would not be as thorough as one done by an auction house putting up the coins for auction. For example, the Rev. Dr. James Gore King McClure Collection of US coins, collected from the 1860s to the early 1930s and held intact until its 2016 sale.
And how does a dealer handle coffee cans full of coins accumulated by a grocer during the 1950s?
You're not a "sucker" if you are simply ignorant. No one knows everything and, to continue my widow example, it is simply unreasonable to expect a novice with no interest or experience to establish the requisite knowledge base.
Simple answer, one by one
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Both are bad. As MFeld asked, If I see a mislabeled coin, I mention it to the seller. Twice I was thanked, once, the seller took it from my hand without saying anything, looked at his mistake, and then ignored me. Needless to say, I've walked past his booth ever since. Haven't seen him in a few years. In all 3 cases, we're not talking big bucks. High two, low three figures. As for getting ripped off by a seller, easy to find the value of what I'm buying.
I had to read some answers to really understand in fact the post is address to "ripping off" and not just ripping. LOL me.
The both cases are bad. Cheating is cheating and is not other adjective to this. Comercial transaction on any form if not involve false marketing is not cheat.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
I've done that too. It has worked well and has led me to deal with some straightshooters and avoid some shifty characters. Things that I noticed over the years after that "test".
It's one thing to "lowball" something you have no interest in, as a dealer, and you are upfront about it. Another thing to lowball it when you act interested but think the seller has no clue.
Dealt with one dealer a few times when I first started, got to wondering about a few things, so offered to sell him something at the next local show. He started bashing the NGC graded coins and offering pennies on the dollar. I just thanked him, got up, left, and then never bought from him again (nor offered to sell). He started a shop with someone a few years later and I went in. He tried lowballing me again (I wanted to see if things changed with the shop) and I heard him lowballing others as I waited for my turn to talk with him.
His partner was MUCH better and I did deal with him a couple of times. Straight forward and fair.
Doing the test you mentioned can show so much about a dealer...
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
If a coin dealer has a coin in his display case that's an extremely rare variety that's worth multiples of what he has it priced at and you point it out to him, what are the chances that he'll share his windfall profit with the person he bought this coin from assuming he remembers who he bought it from?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I will cherrypick a dealer who doesn't know what they have - my best coins are cherrypicks - but I wouldn't buy an obviously mispriced coin from the dealer's helper watching the cases
After reading through the responses, I suppose it depends. Is the widowed old lady buying or selling?
Seriously though. I've been a collector long enough that I've run into the spectrum of humanity when it comes to buying and selling. Personally, I treat people how I want to be treated... fairly.
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