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Which is worse? Ripping sellers or ripping buyers?

topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
No flames as this is a survey. (puttin on asbestos anyhow)

But..... In your opinion is it worse to rip coin sellers by lowball offers or to rip buyers with deceptive ads?

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Comments

  • RussRuss Posts: 48,515 ✭✭✭
    Dealers are sellers, so ripping buyers has to be worse.

    Russ, NCNE
  • DarkmaneDarkmane Posts: 1,021
    if someone is selling at price X, i like the price, and pay what is asked.... i would have no problems sleeping at night. if someone is selling something, has no idea what its worth, and i offer a fraction of the true value.... that's a different story
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,515 ✭✭✭


    << <i>On the whole, unethical behavior is intolerable no matter who is the victim. >>



    Ah, but if the victim is a dealer the behavior is counter-balanced. image

    Russ, NCNE
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Besides, buyers have "caveat emptor!," but sellers lack a catchy Latin phrase to guide them. >>




    I am proud to say that I learned the meaning of that Latin phrase not in the hallowed halls of some fine educational institution, but rather from a episode of The Brady Bunch.
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • flaminioflaminio Posts: 5,664 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Besides, buyers have "caveat emptor!," but sellers lack a catchy Latin phrase to guide them. >>

    Caveat venditor?
  • DHeathDHeath Posts: 8,472 ✭✭✭
    Buyers. Sellers rarely come back a year later to confront you because of their ignorance of the market or inability to grade. image
    Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers
    and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I gotta say I go with "worse to rip buyers"

    Just because it's usually on a grand scale and IMO, causes FAR more harm to the hobby to find that your initial "hyped" purchases were.......... AWFUL.

    (Now where's that newspaper ad? The one with the LAST Morgan dollars?)

    image
  • NewmismatistNewmismatist Posts: 1,802 ✭✭


    << <i>Which is worse? Ripping sellers or ripping buyers? >>



    Depends whether you are the "Rippee" or the Rippor"
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
  • OKbustchaserOKbustchaser Posts: 5,429 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Can't vote...I honestly don't see the difference. Either way you are taking advantage of your hard earned knowledge to "steal" from someone with less knowledge.
    Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,189 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Depends. Am I buying or selling?image

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • ERER Posts: 7,345
    Define "rip".
  • DJCDJC Posts: 787
    Both are contemptible actions, but if I had to pick, it's worse to rip a buyer than a seller.

    A seller may have bought 'properly' enough to sustain a rip without sustaining (as much of) a financial loss anyway. A ripped buyer will have a hard time recovering financially during a sale no matter how generous the offer is. Ripping a buyer is double-edged, terrible on the way in and not much better on the way out.
  • DHeathDHeath Posts: 8,472 ✭✭✭
    The thing is, in many ways a person buying a coin from you relies to some extent on your reputation. The person you're buying from relies only on their own expertise (unless they ask YOU the value). JMO
    Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers
    and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭
    Hmm. Ripping a buyer is often a rip of *commission*, whereas ripping a seller is usually a rip of *omission*.

    In the first case you're misrepresenting something you presumably know it's not; in the second you're merely withholding information you know but the seller doesn't. For that reason, I think ripping a buyer is a bit more contemptible.
  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2024 11:26AM

    I think people find it more revolting dealers ripping buyers than some collector bragging about picking off some dealer. A sort of double standard.

    A collector picks off something from a dealer, upgrades it (much higher MV) and comes in here bragging his know it all spiel - he’s a hero to a lot of them. A dealer doing the same would be trashed out.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
  • We live in an age where anyone can google search any coin, and learn its value if they want to put in the time and work.

    I agree that morally, no one should be ripping off anyone (either party), but at the same time, I also feel people who are willing to put in the time and effort to do the work, should be rewarded for their efforts.

  • gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,356 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I found one dealer that I have seen at multiple shows now. I'm happy to see him and he's happy to see me. Fair transactions for both of us and he likes the new coins he gets to put in his case.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

  • 1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 13,770 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gumby1234 said:
    When I go to coin shows I always have some items to sell. I find the honest dealers that way. I offer something for sale and if they lowball me I move on and don't buy from them. If they offer a fair price I sell to them and buy new material from them. There are a lot of dealers that are honest, Theres also the ones trying to rip you off. This is the way I weed them out.

    That's a good method to find a dealer.
    boston

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb

    Bad transactions with : nobody to date

  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,575 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is my opinion on this matter: If somebody comes into my establishment and seeks value for their coins, IMO, its only ethical to shoot them straight, and provide them proper value. However, if i am at a show and looking around and see something that i think is way underpriced and they are a seller, I just buy it and move on. If its somebody I know well, sometimes I have casually mentioned it to them.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,682 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jdimmick said:
    Here is my opinion on this matter: If somebody comes into my establishment and seeks value for their coins, IMO, its only ethical to shoot them straight, and provide them proper value. However, if i am at a show and looking around and see something that i think is way underpriced and they are a seller, I just buy it and move on. If its somebody I know well, sometimes I have casually mentioned it to them.

    What if the way-underpriced coin in the dealer’s case is common as a P-mint issue, far more valuable with a mintmark, the coin bears a mintmark but is incorrectly marked as a P-mint? Or, as another example, the date is listed incorrectly on the flip and the actual date of the coin is a much more valuable one? What do you do under those circumstances?

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,189 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @jdimmick said:
    Here is my opinion on this matter: If somebody comes into my establishment and seeks value for their coins, IMO, its only ethical to shoot them straight, and provide them proper value. However, if i am at a show and looking around and see something that i think is way underpriced and they are a seller, I just buy it and move on. If its somebody I know well, sometimes I have casually mentioned it to them.

    What if the way-underpriced coin in the dealer’s case is common as a P-mint issue, far more valuable with a mintmark, the coin bears a mintmark but is incorrectly marked as a P-mint? Or, as another example, the date is listed incorrectly on the flip and the actual date of the coin is a much more valuable one? What do you do under those circumstances?

    @jdimmick Be careful. This sounds like a trick question. :o

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,562 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sean Reynolds

    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • BikergeekBikergeek Posts: 178 ✭✭✭✭

    The correct answer is "both." They're both worse than not ripping someone. The exception to this rule is when two rippers engage in a trade, both overestimating the value of their items equally. Then, their avarice cancels out.

    PS. This thread is old enough to drink in some counties.

    New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,343 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Depends. When working in an open market against dealers. Buyers make no assertions other than I will pay the price you ask. My line is when people take advantage or misrepresent. If a dealer made a mistake it is the human thing to show some grace, if they are simply ignorant to a variety or market trends that is really on them for stepping into the ring. Knowledgeable buyers be they dealers or opportunistic collectors who deceive and under quote / misrepresent as to
    exploit a seller who makes no claims to be an expert is very close to stealing in my book. That novice was asking for two services evaluation and transaction. By cheating in the evaluation service to maximize your side of the transaction it makes you a liar and a thief. No dealer has ever asked a buyer for both services.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,363 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ripping off the sellers, especially widows who don't know anything, is worse.

    When I lived in Boston, a well known dealer related the story of a widow who had a collection that was worth $100,000. At the time that was like having a $2 million dollar collection today. The collection was in 10 boxes (slabs did not exist then). A well-known dealer, who is long since dead and shall remain nameless, told her he would buy it in pieces. He paid $10,000 for one box.

    As it turned out, he cherry picks all the good stuff and left her with the common stuff. It was not the sort of thing when each box of coins was $10,000.

    That to me is worse than ripping off buyers. I've been ripped off as a buyer, especially when I was young. I learned something, at least. When you are widow and just want to get out, ripping her off under those circumstances is worse.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 8,998 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2024 7:12PM

    Ripping is bad, uhmkay.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,575 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2024 11:00AM

    Mark,

    Good question, hard to answer, depends on situation, but in all honesty, why would it be any different if I saw where the seller at a show had the mintmark listed incorrectly vs having a variety incorrect or not noted at all. If I buy it and keep walking knowing darn well I just scored a huge variety you'r still ripping the seller ?

    Over the past years I have alerted a seller about a MM on several instances, but 100% probably not

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,682 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jdimmick said:
    Mark,

    Good question, hard to answer, depends on situation, but in all honesty, why would it be any different if I saw where the seller at a show had the mintmark listed incorrectly vs having a variety incorrect or not noted at all. If I buy it and keep walking knowing darn well I just scored a huge variety you'r still ripping the seller ?

    Over the past years I have alerted a seller about a MM on several instances, but 100% probably not

    I agree that it depends upon the specifics of the situation. I just prefer to err on the side of disclosure to someone who has made a mistake.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would just say that honesty is the best policy.

    This week as a seller I had a buyer try to pull a charge back on a delivered item without any communication beforehand. Also had some rare returns, where the seller has to pay for the return even if the buyer was wrong.

  • rte592rte592 Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Can I still take the 5th?
    What's the statute of limitations?

  • PumpkinheadPumpkinhead Posts: 33 ✭✭✭

    An example of the devil being in the details… Whether buyer or seller, “ripping off” sounds bad and is! bad. However, taking advantage of superior knowledge may or may not be… It all depends on the specifics of the transaction and the relevant numismatic “knowledge” of the participants…

  • AlanSkiAlanSki Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Buyer beware/seller beware. No fault as either should be educated enough not to get ripped off.

  • rte592rte592 Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @AlanSki said:
    Buyer beware/seller beware. No fault as either should be educated enough not to get ripped off.

    Far too many people who have been involved in this industry and getting “educated” for years have been ripped off. To expect or require novices to be educated enough to avoid the same fate is unreasonable, unrealistic and cold.

    To quote:
    P.T. Barnum, One born every minute.

  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2024 4:38PM

    With graded coins, the ethics appear to be more black or white.

    With a large collection of high quality raw coins it gets complicated. Even if a dealer is paid to do an appraisal, most likely the evaluation would not be as thorough as one done by an auction house putting up the coins for auction. For example, the Rev. Dr. James Gore King McClure Collection of US coins, collected from the 1860s to the early 1930s and held intact until its 2016 sale.

    And how does a dealer handle coffee cans full of coins accumulated by a grocer during the 1950s?

  • alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DisneyFan
    And how does a dealer handle coffee cans full of coins accumulated by a grocer during the 1950s?

    Simple answer, one by one

  • Tom147Tom147 Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Both are bad. As MFeld asked, If I see a mislabeled coin, I mention it to the seller. Twice I was thanked, once, the seller took it from my hand without saying anything, looked at his mistake, and then ignored me. Needless to say, I've walked past his booth ever since. Haven't seen him in a few years. In all 3 cases, we're not talking big bucks. High two, low three figures. As for getting ripped off by a seller, easy to find the value of what I'm buying.

  • silviosisilviosi Posts: 444 ✭✭✭

    I had to read some answers to really understand in fact the post is address to "ripping off" and not just ripping. LOL me.

    The both cases are bad. Cheating is cheating and is not other adjective to this. Comercial transaction on any form if not involve false marketing is not cheat.

    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN

  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,277 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gumby1234 said:
    I found one dealer that I have seen at multiple shows now. I'm happy to see him and he's happy to see me. Fair transactions for both of us and he likes the new coins he gets to put in his case.

    I've done that too. It has worked well and has led me to deal with some straightshooters and avoid some shifty characters. Things that I noticed over the years after that "test".
    It's one thing to "lowball" something you have no interest in, as a dealer, and you are upfront about it. Another thing to lowball it when you act interested but think the seller has no clue.

    Dealt with one dealer a few times when I first started, got to wondering about a few things, so offered to sell him something at the next local show. He started bashing the NGC graded coins and offering pennies on the dollar. I just thanked him, got up, left, and then never bought from him again (nor offered to sell). He started a shop with someone a few years later and I went in. He tried lowballing me again (I wanted to see if things changed with the shop) and I heard him lowballing others as I waited for my turn to talk with him.
    His partner was MUCH better and I did deal with him a couple of times. Straight forward and fair.

    Doing the test you mentioned can show so much about a dealer...

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,189 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If a coin dealer has a coin in his display case that's an extremely rare variety that's worth multiples of what he has it priced at and you point it out to him, what are the chances that he'll share his windfall profit with the person he bought this coin from assuming he remembers who he bought it from?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • tcollectstcollects Posts: 732 ✭✭✭✭

    I will cherrypick a dealer who doesn't know what they have - my best coins are cherrypicks - but I wouldn't buy an obviously mispriced coin from the dealer's helper watching the cases

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