Is it just a scam or does ICG really think so many perfect (MS70) coins exist?

fivecents

Man, they just keep pumping out the MS/PR70s. What's the deal?

ER

Ask Cammie.

Steve

How do you know they "just keep pumping out MS/PR70's"? ICG doesn't issue a population report so it is very possible that your perception of the situation is based on the coins you see in the market. Maybe in the past year a very small percentage of ICG graded coins were given a MS/PR70 grade. We just don't know. Steve

Shamika

I've often wondered the same thing. I suspect ICG's definition of "perfect mint state" is different than definition PCGS uses.

RayJay

<< <i>I've often wondered the same thing. I suspect ICG's definition of "perfect mint state" is different than definition PCGS uses. >>



Thats why they are #4

Prethen

You may have to ask yourself (or the services) a slightly different question. Why are so few 70's coming out of PCGS? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or "leading" but it's a different angle. Keep one thing in mind....The Mint is doing a very good job at creating extremely high quality collector coins (those not thrown into a hopper). Also of note, in the early years, the services did not believe a 70 was even possible on only few 69's should even exist. There might just be some reluctance from various services to "open up the flood gates" on what might be a flood of 70's. Isn't it remotely possible that there's some artificial tuning going on in the grading rooms?

Goldude

lol i see Yafee is hard at work

BillJones

<< <i>You may have to ask yourself (or the services) a slightly different question. Why are so few 70's coming out of PCGS? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or "leading" but it's a different angle. Keep one thing in mind....The Mint is doing a very good job at creating extremely high quality collector coins (those not thrown into a hopper). Also of note, in the early years, the services did not believe a 70 was even possible on only few 69's should even exist. There might just be some reluctance from various services to "open up the flood gates" on what might be a flood of 70's. Isn't it remotely possible that there's some artificial tuning going on in the grading rooms? >>



MS-70 means "perfect." It means that the coin is not only just as it left the dies but also that it is the best possilbe impression of the design from the dies. Maybe I'd cut a coin a break and let it continue to be a 70 if it is older and has some very light toning. But that's it.

There are very few things in the world that are perfect. Therefore there should be very few MS or PR-70 coins.

Prethen

<< <i>MS-70 means "perfect." It means that the coin is not only just as it left the dies but also that it is the best possilbe impression of the design from the dies. Maybe I'd cut a coin a break and let it continue to be a 70 if it is older and has some very light toning. But that's it.

There are very few things in the world that are perfect. Therefore there should be very few MS or PR-70 coins. >>


Agreed, but it's only a matter of numbers. If enough coins come in, statistically speaking you'll find a "perfect" one.

If you took a [Big Service] 69 and [Big Service] 70 and compared them, more times than not you will not be able to tell the difference. Nor can a professional grader. I would contend that many ICG 70's look just like those coins.

Russ

<< <i>Man, they just keep pumping out the MS/PR70s. What's the deal? >>



It's the only way they can get modern submissions. Their coins don't bring squat in PR69DCAM, so why would anybody submit to them if they didn't pass out the 70 grade?

Russ, NCNE

Prethen

<< <i>

<< <i>Man, they just keep pumping out the MS/PR70s. What's the deal? >>



It's the only way they can get modern submissions. Their coins don't bring squat in PR69DCAM, so why would anybody submit to them if they didn't pass out the 70 grade?

Russ, NCNE >>


Excellent reasoning. I'm sure that's exactly the statements floating around their staff meetings.

airplanenut

<< <i>

<< <i>You may have to ask yourself (or the services) a slightly different question. Why are so few 70's coming out of PCGS? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or "leading" but it's a different angle. Keep one thing in mind....The Mint is doing a very good job at creating extremely high quality collector coins (those not thrown into a hopper). Also of note, in the early years, the services did not believe a 70 was even possible on only few 69's should even exist. There might just be some reluctance from various services to "open up the flood gates" on what might be a flood of 70's. Isn't it remotely possible that there's some artificial tuning going on in the grading rooms? >>



MS-70 means "perfect." It means that the coin is not only just as it left the dies but also that it is the best possilbe impression of the design from the dies. Maybe I'd cut a coin a break and let it continue to be a 70 if it is older and has some very light toning. But that's it.

There are very few things in the world that are perfect. Therefore there should be very few MS or PR-70 coins. >>

A 70 is not a perfect coin... it is a coin with no flaws visible under 5x magnification. That said, the only PCGS 70 I've looked at with any thought, I found 3 spots on just the obverse with my naked eye.

Jeremy

markglicker

A few years ago, I was buying ICG, MS70 $5 Gold and $10 Platinum Eagles, by the boxfull. Not easy to do with PCGS coins.

PhillyJoe

Every service grades according to their own definition of the standards. It would be interesting to see their population report, though.

Joe

stev32k

Check the prices ICG MS70 coins sell for - they bring about 5 or 10X less than PCGS or NGC MS70s.

Prethen

<< <i>Check the prices ICG MS70 coins sell for - they bring about 5 or 10X less than PCGS or NGC MS70s. >>


One thing that potentially means is that they're a bargain. Ever heard of the term "false economies"? Think about it.

Also, think about this.... A few other board members have brought this to light previously and I'll continue to beat this stupid, dead horse. Are you buying a piece of plastic and label and willing to pay that premium? If you're answer is "Yes", then by all means, avoid the cheaper stuff.

dthigpen

<< <i>

<< <i>Check the prices ICG MS70 coins sell for - they bring about 5 or 10X less than PCGS or NGC MS70s. >>


One thing that potentially means is that they're a bargain. Ever heard of the term "false economies"? Think about it.

Also, think about this.... A few other board members have brought this to light previously and I'll continue to beat this stupid, dead horse. Are you buying a piece of plastic and label and willing to pay that premium? If you're answer is "Yes", then by all means, avoid the cheaper stuff. >>



I would never pay a premium for an MS70 ICG coin over a MS68 from PCGS/NGC/ANACS, I would also never pay a premium for a PR70 coin from IGC over a PR69 from PCGS/NGC/ANACS.

AC7DX

<< <i>

<< <i>I've often wondered the same thing. I suspect ICG's definition of "perfect mint state" is different than definition PCGS uses. >>



Thats why they are #4 >>



Now if ACG will just hang in there...they can bump ICG!

Goldude

I wouldn't buy a ICG coin period

BillJones

Sorry guys, but I would never buy a PR-70, unless it was a gold coin.

One spot can do you in, and spots are very much a risk with copper, silver and nickel. Just look at the infamous 1963 PCGS PR-70, ultra cameo cent that went bad a few years. PCGS eventually bought that one back to avoid hurthing the company's image with that coin, but most of us would not get to enjoy that service.

Gold coins can spot too (actually the copper in them can spot), but the chances of happening are much less.

Goldude

If the holder doesn't say PCGS or NGC?? i don't buy it, i don't care how good the coin looks, i buy the holder, not the coin lol, call it stupid, call it whatever you want, it's all about liquidity, and i can dump a PCGS or NGC coin on a drop of a dime, and get a much better premium, it's all about perception.

clevegreg

For MS/PR70 coins, PCGS, and ANACS seem to be the only 2 TPGS that show restraint on giving out the perfect grade. Those who lump PCGS and NGC together obviously haven't spent any time looking at NGCs pop report for moderns, especially modern bullion coins. Here are a few examples:

2005 Eagle G$5 MS68 and lower 0, MS69 4668 MS70 5541 - looks like the MS69 is a rarity lol

2005 Eagle G$50 MS68 and lower 0 MS69 2839 MS70 1308

2005 Eagle S$1 MS68 and lower 72 MS69 56552 MS70 2602

Quite a significant difference from PCGS, right or wrong

Greg

Russ

<< <i>Those who lump PCGS and NGC together obviously haven't spent any time looking at NGCs pop report for moderns, especially modern bullion coins. >>



Of course if you look at proof Kennedys, PCGS has graded many times more PR70DCAMs than NGC.

Russ, NCNE

vega1

No, I don't think its a scam, I think ICG really does believe those coins are 70s. The alternative is that they know full well they aren't and are grading them that way just to get submissions. Not sure I agree thats what they are doing, but I wouldn't know. The real issue here (for them anyway) is that the market clearly does not accept that these coins are 70's and prices them accordingly.

Edited to add this thought: This approach (lots of ICG 70s) has also been the single most cited reason ICG does not have the apparent respect of the top three among many collectors in the marketplace. This fact does not seem to have changed their approach though.

Barry

I wouldn't call it a scam either. I'd call it their business model.

It's no different than PCGS's business model of fluctuating grades, to encourage multiple submissions of the same coin.

Prethen, you seem to have lost objectivity about ICG. Perhaps it's because you live in the same city as ICG and have met them for lunch, etc.

Bottom line is you can't fool the market, and the market says in no uncertian terms ICG's high end grades are not even close to PCGS's or NGC's. I'm not saying NGC and PCGS are equivalent either. I remember when I was collecting some Lincolns for a type set. Looking at a 1943 war cent, for example. a PCGS 66 was as good as, if not better than an NGC 67, and the market priced them accordingly.

fivecents

The TPGS didn't even acknowledge the MS70 grade until the mid to late 1990s. NGC was the first to start holdering the coins with the MS70 grade. PCGS finally followed suit many months later.

michael

No, I don't think its a scam, I think ICG really does believe those coins are 70s. The alternative is that they know full well they aren't and are grading them that way just to get submissions. Not sure I agree thats what they are doing, but I wouldn't know. The real issue here (for them anyway) is that the market clearly does not accept that these coins are 70's and prices them accordingly.


it is all about price as most submitting the coins already know the grades they just want the services to price them

if not for the many buying raw coins for a few dollars and sending them into the services to get them priced in a piece of plastic they would be out of business if they had to sell their few dollar coins they buy and then sell them raw

Cameonut

Barry nailed it - I agree with him.

I no longer look at ICG holders at all unless it is of a date/grade that can take a point or two deduction from NGC/PCGS and still make sense. Problem is, I haven't seen a nice coin in a ICG holder in quite a while worth purchasing.