ms-65 coins. Do you feel comfortable buying higher grade mint state coins?
veryfine
Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭
I am using the grade of ms-65 to make a point, but it also applies to ms-66, 67 and higher. Given the fact that grading standards change over time, would you pay quadruple the price of an ms-64 for an ms-65? For example, your coin in ms-64 has a value of $2000 in 64 and $8000 in 65. The TPG population of the 65 is about half of the 64. Assuming your 65 has all the current grading attributes that qualify it as a 65, are you concerned that in years to come, your 65 could drop a point? If my 64 becomes a 63, the price difference might be insignificant, but for higher grades, the differences might be astronomical.
YES, WE KNOW IT DEPENDS ON THE COIN AND ITS RELATIVE RARITY IN A HIGHER STATE OF PRESERVATION.
YES, WE KNOW THAT WE HAVE TO PAY MORE FOR QUALITY.
YES, WE ARE ALL AWARE THAT CERTAIN COINS ARE MORE POPULAR THAN OTHERS, THEREFORE CREATING MORE DEMAND FOR SUPERIOR GRADES.
YES, WE KNOW IT DEPENDS ON THE GRADING SERVICE.
Those are the kind of answers that do NOT answer the question. I would like to know how you really feel about all this. What do your instincts tell you?
YES, WE KNOW IT DEPENDS ON THE COIN AND ITS RELATIVE RARITY IN A HIGHER STATE OF PRESERVATION.
YES, WE KNOW THAT WE HAVE TO PAY MORE FOR QUALITY.
YES, WE ARE ALL AWARE THAT CERTAIN COINS ARE MORE POPULAR THAN OTHERS, THEREFORE CREATING MORE DEMAND FOR SUPERIOR GRADES.
YES, WE KNOW IT DEPENDS ON THE GRADING SERVICE.
Those are the kind of answers that do NOT answer the question. I would like to know how you really feel about all this. What do your instincts tell you?
0
Comments
<< <i>Above MS-65, my ability to discern between grades starts to break down, and for that reason I tend to stay away from coins above that grade, especially when the values start to increase exponentially with each increment. >>
Yes, ziggy I agree with you
<< <i>Above MS-65, my ability to discern between grades starts to break down, and for that reason I tend to stay away from coins above that grade, especially when the values start to increase exponentially with each increment. >>
Its called the point of diminishing returns.
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Eddited to add: Also in the case you made your assuming that the TPG's have gotten tougher; yesterdays 65 in now graded as a 64; so my slabbed 66 or 67 is now worth even more and more in demand as its tougher to get that high grade.
Chris
My Collection of Old Holders
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Greg
If today's 65 is tomorrow's 64, then PCGS will pick up the tab which is the value of their slabbed coins.
From a grading standpoint above 65, I am definitely all thumbs!
The name is LEE!
I, for one, cannot. The price differences in these grades are beyond belief, and that is reason enough to count me out of this game. Unless they are common coins, I am comfortable with grades like 63 and 64.
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<< <i>I like 66 as a general rule. In indian cents there is a difference between 65 and 66, especially on big pics. Above that it get much more difficult to see a big improvement. >>
Yeah, now that you mention it, for full red copper there usually is a discernable difference between 65RD and 66RD. Which makes sense if you think about it, since for the most part -- except for really ugly coins -- 63RD is the lowest grade frequently assigned to full red coppers, so there need only be three discernable quality bumps to get such a coin to 66RD.
Dennis
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And as we all know, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.
Yes, if the spread between Blue Sheet and Gray Sheet is reasonable. If the spread is huge No is the answer. Again it all reflects back to what the coin is offered to you for money wise.
Ken
more complicated. I will stretch more to buy an unimprovable coin or one that is
nearly unimprovable than I will for a simple upgrade. And there is a threshold for
unc coins below which they appear unattractive to me so I would also stretch a
little to upgrade to this level.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>If I can get a 64 with the right look but maybe a few marks short of a 65, then I am happy. It may not give me the biggest profits, but then again, I might not lose as much down the line. >>
Veryfine do you collect a series or just coins in general ? Probably the collectors that are at ease with buying 66's and 67's are series collectors and basically that is all they look at. In some cases a 66 or 67 really is not very much higher, price wise, than a 65. In my opinion the much wiser buy would be a 66 or 67 both from money spent and the possible return on the coin at a later date.
There was a time when I would not touch a 67 because of the cost. Now that gradeflation has inflated the 68 population 67's are quite reasonable. Just three weeks ago I bought a 43D Merc, that has a Pop of like 30 in no bands, for 45 bucks delivered. How can you go wrong with that type of price.
Ken
There's my 2-cents worth.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
Oscar Wilde
Collect for the love of the hobby, the beauty of the coins, and enjoy the ride.
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<< <i>Nothing about TPG, grading standards, gradeflation, etc. here. I just don't get the fuss over mint state coins, period. I collect 'cause I love the history of the items, the era from which they came, and the role they (may have) played in commerce. A mint state coin didn't do much, if any, of that. It was pulled from the mint or circulation, and has mostly been in a 'museum' state since. I like my coins nicely circulated (VF-AU) and only buy my favorite designs in uncirculated. (Gotta admit Standing Liberty Quarters just look awesome in MS, and are usually pretty ugly circulated) >>
This is a very realistic and certainly understandable outlook on the hobby in my opinion. Unfortunately the reality is, that with coins and just about any other collectible; -the better the original condition, -the fewer there are, -the more desirable to most, -the more expensive to own. That is something that will forever be intertwined in any hobby of an antique and historical nature.
<< <i>There was a time when I would not touch a 67 because of the cost. Now that gradeflation has inflated the 68 population 67's are quite reasonable. Just three weeks ago I bought a 43D Merc, that has a Pop of like 30 in no bands, for 45 bucks delivered. How can you go wrong with that type of price.
Ken >>
Ken, I collect coins in general and sometimes work on one of the older series in circulated grades.
If I do pick up an attractive coin, I'll go for the 64 simply because it's more affordable than a 65 and can still be quite attractive. As I've stated before, I am more comfortable paying higher prices for higher grades if the coin is across the board scarce, from about good to ms-70. I do not like condition rarities.
When you mention reasonable, I guess it does depend on the series. The Mercury dime example you give is a good one. Of course, I am a little biased when it comes to Mercury dimes, one of the most spectacular coin designs in american history, but many really are reasonable in higher grades. My favorite coin is the Standing Liberty quarter, followed closely by the Mercury dime. MERCURY DIMES ARE SO BEAUTIFUL, THEY LOOK GREAT EVEN IN VG!
In your opinion, is a 1912 Liberty nickel in ms-66 worth more than double the price of a 65. Before you answer, I'll tell you that I am fully aware that an ms-66 is rarer and nicer looking than the 65. BUT, an ms-65 Liberty nickel is usually a very nice looking coin. Given the fact that a 1912 nickel is a relatively common date, how much more would YOU pay for this date in an uncommon ms-66 or even 67 grade, certified by your favorite TPG service?
Now in contrast, I now present to you the Peace dollar example. MS-66 Peace dollars are expensive, but given the size and design, they really look a whole lot better in ms-66. Actually, silver dollars in general usually have marks that detract even in ms-65. In this case, I would love to own just one ms-66 Morgan and one ms-66 Peace. So here, I make a condition rarity exception when it comes to those coins.
I DO NOT feel the same need to acquire an ms-66 Liberty nickel or Indian cent.
Recently at Long Beach, I purchased a 1914-D $2.50 in NGC MS-61 for $300.00. It had a very full strike, but a few hits in the obverse fields. The dealer also had a 1914-D in MS-62 with a strike similiar to the MS-61 but with fewer hits that he wanted $500.00 for. I studied both coins very carefully, but for me the choice was obvious: $300.00 was a price I was willing to pay for a coin I really wanted, but $200.00 was not worth the cost of subtracting a few hits from said coin.
>>>My Collection
<< <i>I only collect MS coins. To me, if part of the coin is worn away, I can't help but feel that part of the coin is missing, and I only derive satisfaction from owning whole coins. That said, my favortie MS grade is the one right before the price spike. >>
Yes, I certainly can relate to this. Standing Liberty Quarters, for example, having only light wear, look heavily worn. I wish I could only collect mint state coins too, but for certain issues, the high price forces me to settle for an AU grade. As many collector's know, AU-58 coins often have the look of a mint state coin without the high price tag.
pre 1915
and it is a good value coin
and it is all there
with amazing eye appeal
absolutely
I have no problem paying 2X for a properly graded Liberty Nickel in MS 6 over a 5, as I can usually notice a material difference. Personally, I'd probably pass on a 12 P, because the strike on Nickels dated 1912 from all mints is usually mushy, and I like well-struck coins.
If you can tell the difference between one grade and the next, it's a question of price. In what I collect, I find a huge price difference between an MS 66 & MS 67. Ie., is one less tick mark on an 83 No Cent Nickel worth the difference between $700 and $2500 to you? A similar situation is something like a type FH SLQ in MS 66 & MS 67. To me the price difference isn't worth the trivial (to me) quality difference in the coin.
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"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Nothing about TPG, grading standards, gradeflation, etc. here. I just don't get the fuss over mint state coins, period. I collect 'cause I love the history of the items, the era from which they came, and the role they (may have) played in commerce. A mint state coin didn't do much, if any, of that. It was pulled from the mint or circulation, and has mostly been in a 'museum' state since. I like my coins nicely circulated (VF-AU) and only buy my favorite designs in uncirculated. (Gotta admit Standing Liberty Quarters just look awesome in MS, and are usually pretty ugly circulated) >>
To each his own of course.
But I recognize that attitude as one that I used to have. I had started with buffalo nickels
and already moved on to large cents before I even knew that most other collectors prized
unc coins above almost everything else. This seemed peculiar to me for the exact same rea-
sons you site, why chase a never used coin which had never even had a chance to do its in-
tended job when you could find beautiful examples of the coins which had been out on the
front lines doing what coins do best?
To some degree this attitude persists but now when I look at an unc coin I not only see the
full detail and the intended look of the coin but also see what the odds were against the sur-
vival of such a coin. Perhaps most importantly, I can also see the many coins that didn't sur-
vive and the many which were worn out.
Perhaps much of this perspective is the mere result of specializing in something like clad quar-
ters where most are available in unc or gem, where the odds against survival can be millions
and millions to one.
A lot of these perspectives are almost more the result of what one collects than the cause.
<< <i>If you can tell the difference between one grade and the next, it's a question of price. In what I collect, I find a huge price difference between an MS 66 & MS 67. Ie., is one less tick mark on an 83 No Cent Nickel worth the difference between $700 and $2500 to you? A similar situation is something like a type FH SLQ in MS 66 & MS 67. To me the price difference isn't worth the trivial (to me) quality difference in the coin. >>
Price really is the issue. As I mentioned earlier, I generally have a problem buying common coins in uncommon condition. For example, I'd much rather own an 1885 Liberty nickel in MS-63 than a 1906 in ms-66.
An yes, I too see a difference between 65 and 66, but in most cases, I'd take the 65.
<< <i>
Price really is the issue. As I mentioned earlier, I generally have a problem buying common coins in uncommon condition. For example, I'd much rather own an 1885 Liberty nickel in MS-63 than a 1906 in ms-66.
An yes, I too see a difference between 65 and 66, but in most cases, I'd take the 65. >>
Well sure, with liberty nickels. But what about 1804 dollars or 1966 quarters?
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<< <i>
<< <i>Well sure, with liberty nickels. But what about 1804 dollars or 1966 quarters? >>
1804 dollar? There are only a handful in existence. When you reach that level of collecting with that kind of wealth, the category is officially, OUTER SPACE. The person searching for an 1804 will probably not turn down the 66 because it's a better value in 65.
Now the 69 quarter is an interesting example. Doesn't the price jump dramatically from 66 to 67? I'm sure that it is hard to find in these higher grades and, if it is your specialty, you might pay the price. Aside from the fact that you might like this coin, do you feel that a date like this will hold its value, despite changing grading standards in the future. With certain clad coins, the price jumps in higher grades are extremely high. How do you feel about paying these prices?
I'll put my two cents in:
Every move (buy/sell/trade) a collector makes has both a "collector" component, and an "investment" component.
"Very Fine" obviously appreciates the rarity of the issue as creating the best value, and then will see to get it in the highest grade without overpaying (in his opinion) for that condition.
"Artist" is probably squarely in the middle. He doesn't mind spending big bucks for a coin that has inherent rarity in the issue, but prefers the undergrade instead of paying multiples for that top pop. (I tend to fall in the catagory as well, especially in the moderns where hundreds of millions where minted)
Other people have a higher tolerance for risk. There is inherently more risk when you pay multiples over a 66 for a 67 for a coin which was produced in the hundreds of millions.
Risk is also a relative term. A collector with a $100 million bankroll cares nothing about spending another $10,000 bucks for a top pop, whereas the collector with only $5,000 in the bank will judge the risk differently.
Ergo, this is the crux IMO of all of the past debates of classic vs. modern collectors.
<< <i>Other people have a higher tolerance for risk. There is inherently more risk when you pay multiples over a 66 for a 67 for a coin which was produced in the hundreds of millions.
Risk is also a relative term. A collector with a $100 million bankroll cares nothing about spending another $10,000 bucks for a top pop, whereas the collector with only $5,000 in the bank will judge the risk differently.
Ergo, this is the crux IMO of all of the past debates of classic vs. modern collectors. >>
Doug, this is so true. That's why the 1804 dollar in any grade level is not a concern for a potential buyer of that date. The huge bankroll helps to alleviate the value worries.
I also agree with you about the risk factor when buying coins that were minted by the truckloads. For certain dates, the few in 67 and higher might be true rarities, but, IMO the risk is higher for these than with pre-modern coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>Well sure, with liberty nickels. But what about 1804 dollars or 1966 quarters? >>
1804 dollar? There are only a handful in existence. When you reach that level of collecting with that kind of wealth, the category is officially, OUTER SPACE. The person searching for an 1804 will probably not turn down the 66 because it's a better value in 65.
Now the 69 quarter is an interesting example. Doesn't the price jump dramatically from 66 to 67? I'm sure that it is hard to find in these higher grades and, if it is your specialty, you might pay the price. Aside from the fact that you might like this coin, do you feel that a date like this will hold its value, despite changing grading standards in the future. With certain clad coins, the price jumps in higher grades are extremely high. How do you feel about paying these prices? >>
I feel comfortable seeking clads in high grades but not 1804 dollars.
My point was simply that the author of the thread
considerations. There are many series which very few people collect in high
grades and there are some token collectors who actually prefer well worn ex-
amples so long as the lettering is still present.
I'm not especially concerned with changes in grading standards since I know
what the best examples look like and these will not change in the future.
Nor am I concerned with pricing because the demand is still tiny and the finan-
cial costs are quite low. Much of my concern for these is a collector's concern
anyway and lower prices would decrease the cost of completing sets.
Again I do seek attractive coins and find many of the low end unc coins to be
extremely unattractive (especially in clads). And I will stretch to acquire an un-
improvable or nearly unimprovable coin. (especially in all moderns and in coins
which aren't out of my price range at this level) This would include the 1804
dollar were I in the market for such.
<< <i>I feel comfortable seeking clads in high grades but not 1804 dollars.
My point was simply that the author of the thread
considerations. There are many series which very few people collect in high
grades and there are some token collectors who actually prefer well worn ex-
amples so long as the lettering is still present.
I'm not especially concerned with changes in grading standards since I know
what the best examples look like and these will not change in the future.
Nor am I concerned with pricing because the demand is still tiny and the finan-
cial costs are quite low. Much of my concern for these is a collector's concern
anyway and lower prices would decrease the cost of completing sets.
Again I do seek attractive coins and find many of the low end unc coins to be
extremely unattractive (especially in clads). And I will stretch to acquire an un-
improvable or nearly unimprovable coin. (especially in all moderns and in coins
which aren't out of my price range at this level) This would include the 1804
dollar were I in the market for such. >>
I, the author of this thread, do see your point.
There is no doubt that certain clad coins are extremely elusive in the higher mint state grades. My main concern with clad coins is the continuous supply that may or may not have an effect on the price of these. Some of the clad Washington quarter prices in ms-67 are much much higher than ones in MS-66.
How much would you pay for an MS-67 1967 Washington quarter, assuming it's a no question high end 67?
Liberty Nickels are a funny series in that few people try and collect the entire set. Most people pick up a type coin and move on. While I'd think you'd have an easier time selling an 85 in 3 than an 06 in 6, I wouldn't bet on it, as the 06 in that grade is a scarce, valuable coin.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>
How much would you pay for an MS-67 1967 Washington quarter, assuming it's a no question high end 67? >>
I'm pretty cheap and tend to find most of these raw with extensive effort.
In the past I was always able to pay enough for any coin I wanted but this is much less
true today. I get outbid often by others or by the market. Even after the dramatic price
increases the other day in the PCGS guide there are still many of these coins which look
too cheap.
<< <i>Above MS-65, my ability to discern between grades starts to break down, and for that reason I tend to stay away from coins above that grade, especially when the values start to increase exponentially with each increment. >>
Ziggy, you are far from alone in this.
This is why, as a seller, I will not put any supergrade numbers (MS66 or above) on any raw coins I sell, even if I know they're in, say the MS67 range, for example. I will merely put "MS65+" or "MS65++" on 'em.
For me, it's gotta be in major third-party plastic to grade over 65. In my book, MS65 is the upper end of the scale for a raw coin.
It's just an idiosyncracy of mine, I guess. I behave this way when buying as well as selling.
<< <i>VeryFine - The 06 Liberty Nickel in PC 6 is a scarce and expensive coin. I don't have pops & prices in front of me, but I'll bet the 85 Liberty Nickel in PC 3 has a much higher pop than the 06 in PC 6. It wouldn't surprise me if the 85 in 3 went for less $ than the 06 in 6.
Liberty Nickels are a funny series in that few people try and collect the entire set. Most people pick up a type coin and move on. While I'd think you'd have an easier time selling an 85 in 3 than an 06 in 6, I wouldn't bet on it, as the 06 in that grade is a scarce, valuable coin. >>
Elcontador,
You are right about the 06 having a lower population than the 1885 in MS-66, but here's where I respectfully differ from many of you. The 1885 has a lower popoulation in ms-65 and below. The low mintage, low population key date status of the 1885 will always make it more attractive to me. A relatively common coin in 63 and 64 such as the 1906 becomes a "rarity" in MS-66. That bothers me. In addition, an MS-63 1906 LN is on the inexpensive side and I bet many of them are uncertified. There are far fewer uncertified mint state 1885s floating around and even in low circulated grades, they are often certified.
That may be true about the lack of interest in this series as a set, but if I were a betting man, I'd say the series has LOADS of potential. Despite a few expensive dates, one can realistically complete a mint state set of these coins. Considering the age and scarcity of several issues in the series, that's pretty amazing, don't you think? You can even piece together a full set of proofs and not break the bank. Try putting together a mint state set of Buffalo nickels or Barber quarters. OUCH! In my humble opinion, Liberty Nickels will soar in popularity some day.
<< <i>
<< <i>
How much would you pay for an MS-67 1967 Washington quarter, assuming it's a no question high end 67? >>
I'm pretty cheap and tend to find most of these raw with extensive effort.
In the past I was always able to pay enough for any coin I wanted but this is much less
true today. I get outbid often by others or by the market. Even after the dramatic price
increases the other day in the PCGS guide there are still many of these coins which look
too cheap. >>
The more I examine my old clad sets from the 60's and 70's, the more I realize how truly scarce they are in high grades. They are often dull and lifeless with far too many marks.
<< <i>
The more I examine my old clad sets from the 60's and 70's, the more I realize how truly scarce they are in high grades. They are often dull and lifeless with far too many marks. >>
Some dates come very nice like the '72-D quarters but others don't. Some of
those that are worst can be found in high grade rarely. Most BU rolls of these
coins are very scarce and contain no gems. They do, however, contain the lion's
share of the modern varieties.