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GRADING QUIZ ON THESE TWO LIBERTY $20 GOLD COINS===ANSWER NOW POSTED!!
oreville
Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭✭
What would you grade these two coins (1861-P and 1873-P) and why? What did PCGS grade these two coins and why?
By the way, I bought both coins from the ANR Auction of the Drew St John Sale in Rosemont, IL.
By the way, I bought both coins from the ANR Auction of the Drew St John Sale in Rosemont, IL.
A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
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166 BHDs & 154 Die Varieties & Die States...
Bust Half Nut Club #180
Festivus Yes! Bagels No!
The 1873 is an MS-62.
Remember, gold is very soft and PCGS is very lienient on gold.
Tom
Insanely baggy coins, and the first almost looks to have some wear aside from the bagmarks. (I could be wrong)
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
To bad about the cheek area, pretty rough.
reverse - shows the same amount of rim damage as the obverse. not much.
once again, a lot of luster left on that coin.
man this is a tough call for me. I have not stared at 20 Libs as much as i have half eagles.
It could be anywhere from AU58 all the way up to a MS62. I def would not mind owning it
due to it being a civil war coin.
edited to add, the more i look at it, the more marks that catch my eye constantly.
Luster is its saving grace.
I will go with MS60.
1873 obverse - Some scratches instantly catch my eye. The strike does not look as strong.
Not as much luster as the coin above it. Rim is not perfect, but it sure is not bad.
reverse - The shield shows some dings, pretty large gouge on the left hand side.
Rim is ok, but shows some marks. Above average marks I cannot identify.
This one is not as hard as the top coin i think. AU58.
nice coins though and good dates, to me at least. I am not sure what the mintages were though.
Not too long ago, I would have called them both AU+ based on my lack of knowledge about gold coins and gold grading. The field marks LOOK like rubs. I've been properly adjusted by reading this forum, so I guess I'll agree with the MS-60 or 61 guesses.....But I'd like to see them in hand before committing MONEY to the coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
1873 - AU54
Severe bag/ware marks, rim damage...
Currently Listed: Nothing
Take Care, Dave
AU 55
Both look to me from the pics to have rub--the second more than the first. Both too marked up for 58 grade. Also the photo of coin 1 makes it looked like someone was messing with the obverse fields.
I would be hard pressed to give that 1861 a MS60 even though it may very well be uncirculated.
I'll say AU-50 and MS-61
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since 8/1/6
Ms-62 for the second (Few Heavier marks but not as many in the prime focal areas or fields)
1873 - MS-60 - Same as above, and probably would have went - 61, or even - 62 had not been for that nasty mark just below the eagle's right wing and around the thirteenth star on the obverse.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
The right side obverse field has the nearly identical marks as I have on a 63-4 eagle and I got BB'd from across the street as they called it IMPROPER CLEANING. I am going to call it a 55-because I am looking at the tips of the wings. However, I am never right.
The 1873 looks like a 60 but since this is a trick question
After I'd seen some of the really ugly, bag marked junk double eagles that has gotten in MS-61 holders I had harbored thoughts that perhiaps I'd pull a 61 for one or both of my pieces. But no that was not meant to be. I guess my coins were too attractive.
It almost seems like that some of the coins in low end Mint State holders had a rub in the fields, but after someone used an ice pick to scare up the fields, they were qualified to be Mint State. If you don't believe have a look at some so-called Mint State early $20 gold coins. You might be in for a shock.
The two coins are AU-58, but if the right people send them in, they might go higher.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
2) looks more MS to me, a little weak on the obv strike, I'll go 61.
<< <i>Is this the 1873 the closed 3 variety? If it is, it's a much better date. The open 3 variety is considered a common date type II double eagle, not that any type II's are all that common in MS. >>
Yes. This is the closed 3 variety.
By the way, on the 1873-S the opposite is true (the closed 3 is the more common variety) which makes it easier for collectors to have one of each. Wasn't that nice of the US Mint back in 1873?
The 1873, while having cleaner looking fields does appear to have discoloration on the cheek and 2-3 longer marks in the field in front of the face, as well as two longish cuts on the bust....AU58
That said, you can't grade images.
And thanks for the neat giveaway....I'll let you choose.
Neither attractive
Usual caveats.
<< <i>PerryHall: You asked:
<< <i>Is this the 1873 the closed 3 variety? If it is, it's a much better date. The open 3 variety is considered a common date type II double eagle, not that any type II's are all that common in MS. >>
Yes. This is the closed 3 variety.
By the way, on the 1873-S the opposite is true (the closed 3 is the more common variety) which makes it easier for collectors to have one of each. Wasn't that nice of the US Mint back in 1873? >>
Early in 1873 the Philadelphia mint discovered the closed 3 looked like an 8 and changed it to the open 3 variety. Hence, the closed 3 is the scarcer variety since they caught it very early. At this time the Philadelphia mint sent replacement dies with the open 3 to the San Francisco mint but transportation was very slow in those days so S.F. didn't get the new dies until late in the year. Hence, the closed 3 die was used throughout most of the year in S.F. making that the most common variety and the open 3 the more scarce variety.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
The 73 seems mint state, although banged up--MS61
This is the final tally:
1861
EF-45====0
AU-50====1
AU-53====1
AU-54====0
AU-55====2
AU-56====1
AU-58====7
MS-60====9
MS-60.5==1
MS-61===12
MS-62====0
MS-63====0
1873
EF-45====0
AU-50====0
AU-53====0
AU-54====1
AU-55====4
AU-56====0
AU-58====6
MS-60====7
MS-60.5==1
MS-61===12
MS-62====3
MS-63====0
Some more interesting analysis:
Those who graded the 1861 higher than the 1873: 7
Those who graded both the 1861 /1873 the same: 8
Those who graded the 1861 lower- then the 1873: 13
Weighted average grade based on the votes:
1861===2007.5/34 = 59.04
1873===2020.5/34 = 59.43
This seems to support my hypothesis that a larger weighted average of a group vote tends to self correct the highs and lows of the graders (us) and come to a more accurate conclusion.
I still think the services could MS one or both pieces even though they are technically rubbed. The cleaner fields of the 1873 make this a superior piece to me.
But what bothers me is that the rubbing on the 1873 looks worse, even if smaller, while the 1861's is well blended in by hits. Maybe Oreville being an expert in this area can help explain this...i.e. the rub on the 1873 looks worse at first glance because of the contrast.
1861 - AU58
1873 - MS61
roadrunner
<< <i>The analysis is only interesting if you tell us the darn answer! >>
Heck, I promised the answer by tonight!
I found it just as interesting that your answer and that of roadrunners are completely the opposite!
We both probably agree that both coins are rubbed. But the hard question is what does PCGS "think" these are, whether right or wrong? It matters little what they really are, but only what 4 "little" men behind a curtain think on one particular day.
Ex: I had an AU58 draped bust coin that everyone I showed this too felt it was at best a 58. Not one major player I showed this coin to wanted to think of it as any better. Nor would they pay a solid 58 price for it. Until....one lone dealer stepped up and bought it (and admitted he was thinking MS61). Lo and behold, the coin graded MS62 next time out! Now the "market" once again thinks the coin is a MS62. It doesn't really matter that all the previous lookers saw only an AU coin. The men behind the curtain added market "value" to the coin. For that it's worth, the coin sold for an extra 50% because of the upgrade. But we know that in the next down cycle, that coin will only sell for AU58 once again.
roadrunner
They were sold by ANR Numismatic Rarities and they went for solid AU-58 prices.
ANR Description's about the 1861:
Although this piece is not Mint State, it has about as much lustre as a Mint State piece might. However, the difference is in the contact marks, which on the present coin are fairly extensive on the obverse. The reverse, if graded separately, might be called MS-60. Among double eagles of this era, the 1861 is one of just a few Mint State coins that can be obtained outside of the marvelous treasure ship finds.
ANR Description's about the 1873:
A lustrous and attractive example, classified as AU-58, but certainly as nice as some we have seen called MS-60. This is a very nice example, highly recommended, of the rather elusive type from 1866 to 1876, with IN GOD WE TRUST on the reverse and the denomination given as TWENTY D. If you are building a type set and do not want to pay more for a Mint State coin, buy this one.
Interesting - that top one sure took a beating
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
This is the final tally:
1861
EF-45====0
AU-50====1
AU-53====1
AU-54====0
AU-55====2
AU-56====1
AU-58====7
MS-60====9
MS-60.5==1
MS-61===12
MS-62====0
MS-63====0
1873
EF-45====0
AU-50====0
AU-53====0
AU-54====1
AU-55====4
AU-56====0
AU-58====6
MS-60====7
MS-60.5==1
MS-61===12
MS-62====3
MS-63====0
Some more interesting analysis:
Those who graded the 1861 higher than the 1873: 7
Those who graded both the 1861 /1873 the same: 8
Those who graded the 1861 lower- then the 1873: 13
Weighted average grade based on the votes:
1861===2007.5/34 = 59.04
1873===2020.5/34 = 59.43
This seems to support my hypothesis that a larger weighted average of a group vote tends to self correct the highs and lows of the graders (us) and come to a more accurate conclusion. When everything was tallied up we came awful close to the actual PCGS grade.
It also brings into question as to whether an AU-59 might be needed?
Numerous contact marks do not preclude a coin from being MS, especially a $20.00 Lib.
Of course, we are dealing only with photos but the question is when does baggy get too baggy to be mint state, or ever?
I also think it is human nature, when you set two coins in front of a person,
especially when they are the same coin/diff date, we will make an opinion of which
is better than the other.
Hence the reason I gave the top MS60 and the bottom AU58.
Next time I will not allow myself to do that. (Learning here).
I hope for another thread like this next week!
(that is where I will be way off and look like a fool!)