Part Five, Chapter 39-----My take on Classic Commems.
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
Here is perhaps the most diverse area of United States Numismatics and conversely one of the most competitve and eagerly followed. I've been bitten by the bug and dabble, but I've been able to discipline myself much in the way that Clankeye suggested a while back-----there are so many choices for each issue that it pays to just sit tight and wait for that coin that "speaks" to you. To date, perhaps a dozen have chosen to talk.
What I find interesting about the series is the stated mintages. They are often misleading and can lure an unwary collector into poor decisions(my opinion only). For example, an issue I thoroughly enjoy is the Boone Half-Dollar which is sometimes touted as the lowest mintage 20th Century silver coin. Perhaps it is for a particular date, but the design was struck close to 75,000 times. Why pay a premium for a specific date example when a "commoner" date of the same design is multiples cheaper? But, I digress. Another salient point is that the mintages tend to be higher before the 1936 but the original quality was lower and less coins were saved---while---mintages after 1936 are somewhat small by comparison but the promoters had hijacked the series and gem coins are plentiful. A paradox of sorts, but again, I digress.
Some issues with substantial mintages, the 1926 Sesquicentennial or the 1923 Monroe, are pathetically low relief issues that show mishandling as the norm and hit a solid wall at low MS grades of MS63-64, with the prices for higher grades reflecting that fact. Other issues with smaller mintages and plagued with the same problems seem to be out of favor with collectors so the prices are more reasonable, like a 1921 Pilgrim. Design also seems to play a role in demand as it should. Some of the issues with low mintages and high survival are just unattractive so it seems popularity lags and they seldom show up. A 1920 Maine is an example of this for me, lackluster design with low demand.
All these factors make for some tough choices when seeking these coins. I've spent a few years looking at many in various auction venues, at shows and shops and reading what I can to the total dismay of my dozen coin assemblage. I spoke with member MS68 last year and if I came away with one tidbit that outweighs everything else I've learned---with the low relief designs, the luster was poor from the initial striking and after poor handling/storage, even a quick dip destroys many coins. That probably accounts for a large proportion of the white holdered coins which seem devoid of luster as well as the large percentage of unnattractively toned coins in holders with high technical grades but low eye-appeal.
In the long term, I see nothing but good things for Classic Commemoratives which have above average eye-appeal. I try to remember that stated mintages can be almost meaningless once I factor in all the variables that have determined the survivors. Some of best designs like a Lincoln, Vermont, Vancouver or Pan Pac should be in demand forever. The trick is to find the coins that talk your language. Nanu-Nanu!!
Al H.
What I find interesting about the series is the stated mintages. They are often misleading and can lure an unwary collector into poor decisions(my opinion only). For example, an issue I thoroughly enjoy is the Boone Half-Dollar which is sometimes touted as the lowest mintage 20th Century silver coin. Perhaps it is for a particular date, but the design was struck close to 75,000 times. Why pay a premium for a specific date example when a "commoner" date of the same design is multiples cheaper? But, I digress. Another salient point is that the mintages tend to be higher before the 1936 but the original quality was lower and less coins were saved---while---mintages after 1936 are somewhat small by comparison but the promoters had hijacked the series and gem coins are plentiful. A paradox of sorts, but again, I digress.
Some issues with substantial mintages, the 1926 Sesquicentennial or the 1923 Monroe, are pathetically low relief issues that show mishandling as the norm and hit a solid wall at low MS grades of MS63-64, with the prices for higher grades reflecting that fact. Other issues with smaller mintages and plagued with the same problems seem to be out of favor with collectors so the prices are more reasonable, like a 1921 Pilgrim. Design also seems to play a role in demand as it should. Some of the issues with low mintages and high survival are just unattractive so it seems popularity lags and they seldom show up. A 1920 Maine is an example of this for me, lackluster design with low demand.
All these factors make for some tough choices when seeking these coins. I've spent a few years looking at many in various auction venues, at shows and shops and reading what I can to the total dismay of my dozen coin assemblage. I spoke with member MS68 last year and if I came away with one tidbit that outweighs everything else I've learned---with the low relief designs, the luster was poor from the initial striking and after poor handling/storage, even a quick dip destroys many coins. That probably accounts for a large proportion of the white holdered coins which seem devoid of luster as well as the large percentage of unnattractively toned coins in holders with high technical grades but low eye-appeal.
In the long term, I see nothing but good things for Classic Commemoratives which have above average eye-appeal. I try to remember that stated mintages can be almost meaningless once I factor in all the variables that have determined the survivors. Some of best designs like a Lincoln, Vermont, Vancouver or Pan Pac should be in demand forever. The trick is to find the coins that talk your language. Nanu-Nanu!!
Al H.
0
Comments
Classic case of supply and demand with these. Don't get me wrong, I love some issues (Vermont's, Oregon's, Connecticut's and Maine's (yes Maine's
Exceptional coins are always going to do fantastic, and deservedly so.
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
We are still a LONG way from what these once sold for in the past though. If you were to buy only one commem, save your money and try and find a nice Hawaiian. These are always in high demand, even in lower grades. I don't really feel there is too much downside in my opinion.
the exceptional coins are the ones i think will do very well, also, that was a main point of my post. time has treated the majority of most issues very poorly and the damage has been done. i think many of the white coins we're seeing have been helped by NCS since they can remove the ugly tone without stripping luster, but the original untampered with coins that still show strong luster are gems to be savored, collected and put back for the long haul. i truly believe that in 10-20 years we'll all be amazed at how stable the graded populations of these classic issues have become, static and perhaps unmoving. as i see it, the only hope for the generic examples, the AU58's-MS63's which dominate most issues, is a hoped for pleasant tone which might market boost their value. short of that, if the last two upswings we'e experienced haven't drawn out the best coins, there's every possibility that they may no longer exist.
one thing to remember, the stated mintages and the recalled and melted numbers over the years aren't always accurate. add to the mix the number that circulated and the ones that just die to the passing of time......................
I prolly never will, since I am more dealer than collector these days, but it would be a nice undertaking. I never collected commems, beyond a few pieces that I needed to fill just a couple slots in a Dansco 7070 type set. (The old 7070's had slots for four halves, no dollars).
I used to think that maybe the series commemoratives would be a growing way of collecting commems. Sets like the Texas and the Oregons, the Boones and the Carvers. The Oregons and Texas coins have very popular designs, and to see a complete, well chosen set of them is a thing of beauty. My thinking was that with the expense of putting together an entire 50 piece type set (let alone the 144 complete set) that people would find these mini series affordable and challenging. Because within each series there are key dates, different striking characteristics, etc. So, not only affordable, but reasonably challenging and entertaining.
I thought perhaps the creation of the Registry short sets for these coins might help push that along.
But, alas, I really don't think so now. My gut feeling is commem collecting will probably remain pretty much as it is today. They will fascinate a group of people who hear "The Calling" and they will remain a subgroup within the larger (but relatively small) pool of people who seriously collect coins.
I agree with both you and Darin. The really eye appealing coins will always be in demand and bring premiums. But, that can be applied to the broader view of numismatics in general.
I love 'em, though. And just you invoking the image of a nice Lincoln makes me want to run out and find the ultimate one. Just t'aint that easy though.
Good thread.
Clankeye
Now beyond just early commems being special and historically significant, the nicely toned examples are in a class of their own. They are each "one-of-a-kind" treasures created in combination with "mother nature" and "father time". I have been an avid collector in different venues for years but I don't think I have ever been drawn to a specific subject as I am with early commems with nice toning. They certainly "speak" to me and when I find one that "screams" at me, it really is a special find. I enjoy any types of toning on commems. From the beautiful rainbow colors to the less appealing types or colors of toning. They are each original relics, survivors which stood the test of time and survived the elements. Just the fact that they didn't fall prey to the dipping or cleaning solutions over the years, makes them all the more appealing.
Regardless of what the future holds and what the market becomes of early commems, I think in general they will always be in demand and ofcourse the "monsters" will forever command monstrous premiums.
I actually think every coin collector in some way finds commems intriguing, that is what is so special about them. Most collectors I would imagine who don't even collect commems, "want" to have or "do" have at least one in their collection. I don't think this can be said for most other coins, except for maybe Morgans.
Keets, my "exceptional coins" comment was more in reference to the superbly toned examples. I should have been more eplicit. The very nice, original coins are still desirable, but I feel there is less demand out there looking for that type of coin.
I feel many of the fuglier coins that can be found are a product of the issued holders, and overall mishandling of the coins over the years. Not necessarily a ton of NCS victims, in my locale, anyways.
There are a bunch of tough coins in the series, it's just a matter of having enough collectors that actually care about that fact.
Here's a cutesy Missouri
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
<< <i>There are a bunch of tough coins in the series, it's just a matter of having enough collectors that actually care about that fact. >>
There you have it, right there. I mean, I could sit and have a long talk about why a 53-P Carver (for instance) is an underrated coin--but, I think it would stir less interest than Box Car Willy doing a hip-hop album.
That Missouri of yours is a beaut, Darin. Tonelover landed a nice one a while back. Those coins are good examples of unusually nice coins for a type. Coins that people who know the series will think are standout examples--but, that probably wouldn't seem like it to those who aren't familiar with the series.
Clankeye
Greg
<< <i>
time has treated the majority of most issues very poorly and the damage has been done. i think many of the white coins we're seeing have been helped by NCS since they can remove the ugly tone without stripping luster, but the original untampered with coins that still show strong luster are gems to be savored, collected and put back for the long haul. >>
Hi Keets,
Appreciate your insights into this series. Do you feel that NCS is doing something the rest of us can't re removing ugly toning while retaining luster? Do they do something other than a dip? Use a secret dipping sauce?
Thanks,
Don
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
my NCS comment is more a hunch than anything else. i have only dipped a couple of non-proof silver coins mainly because of the luster stripping power of the chemicals. NCS no doubt has a very refined process and i assume that they can perform small miracles. a dip can sometimes, but not always, be detected from the appearance of the white coin's surface. a bluish tinge or milky haze can be seen if the coin is tilted at an extreme angle, but there's a catch----coins in a holder are difficult and sometimes the right lighting can only be found at home, after it's too late.
as BigD5 said, much of the toning on these is from the original holders and the result i see most often is splotchy dark black rim tone or or the unattractive gold-brown tone. while those may lend the look of originality to a coin, the eye-appeal is missing for me and i will always overlook them regardless of the grade. the same goes for the tab toned coins, i just don't get the appeal. i suspect that the really nice toned commems come from either kraft envelopes, some type of album or a combination of the two. a friend used to refer to the effect as "lingerie tone" because of the way the color seems to float on the coin but the luster comes through nicely, just like a scantily clad woman on her wedding night!!
My nicely toned Commems are only: Lafayettes, Alabamas, Antietam, Columbias in tab, Gettysburg, Grant *, Long Island tab, Missouri 2X4, Monroe, Spanish Trail, and a Vancouver. Each of these were simply too pretty to pass up.
Since I hope to buy more Classic Commems I hope they do not increase in value in the near future.
You are correct about the mintage figures. One must not get hung up on individual date mintages. In looking at a commem, always know the entire mintage for the design. This will dictate the demand on the coin as most commem collectors do not complete date & mintmark set. Most Commem collectors are true type collectors, that is what draws us to the series in the first place. With that said, a benefit is that you can find some very low mintage dates available at reasonable prices. For example, I picked up a nice MS66 1938 Boone with a tiny mintage of 2100 for around $550 a couple of years ago. And that is pretty cool.
<< <i>Most Commem collectors are true type collectors, that is what draws us to the series in the first place. >>
You know, I think that's probably a pretty true statement, and one I hadn't thought a lot about. That may be a big factor in the reason commems aren't commonly collected by sub/series. Interesting...
Clankeye
Lardmarco
Just do it! (AU's that is- affordable in that condition, and good looking too- save for the HI...)
Dizzy -love the CA reverse-funny how different the golden bears are on the bay bridge and diamond jubilees-as you may know, CA is the only state with an extinct subspecies as one of it's symbols.
Don
<< <i>You know, I think that's probably a pretty true statement, and one I hadn't thought a lot about. That may be a big factor in the reason commems aren't commonly collected by sub/series. Interesting... >>
Clankeye, you are one of the few that put together amazing single type sub/series that I know of. Most commem collectors I meet that are doing a sub/series do so by theme. For example "Civil War", "Ships", "States", or my original subset "Headless Commems". Your passion puts you in a rare group of collectors.
<< <i>
<< <i>You know, I think that's probably a pretty true statement, and one I hadn't thought a lot about. That may be a big factor in the reason commems aren't commonly collected by sub/series. Interesting... >>
Clankeye, you are one of the few that put together amazing single type sub/series that I know of. Most commem collectors I meet that are doing a sub/series do so by theme. For example "Civil War", "Ships", "States", or my original subset "Headless Commems". Your passion puts you in a rare group of collectors. >>
Hi Fatman,
which ones count as headless? I realize that ct is one, but ones that have a figure but are more than a bust- ie Columbia, sc, york co?
Don
<< <i>Hi Fatman,
which ones count as headless? I realize that ct is one, but ones that have a figure but are more than a bust- ie Columbia, sc, york co?
Don >>
My original set design was 21 types. I later included 3 more because the heads represented symbolic figures and one with a half portrait. These are optional. The Missouri adds another Key so if affordability is the issue I would exclude these.
The Official Headless Silver Commemorative Set:
Panama-Pacific Exposition 1915 *key date*
Maine Centenial 1920
Lexington-Concord Sesquicentennial 1925
Stone Mountain Memorial 1925
California Diamond Jubilee 1925
Oregon Trail Memorial 1926-1939
Texas Independence Centennial 1934-1938
Connecticut Tercentenary 1935
Hudson NY Sesquicentennial 1935 *semi key date*
California-Pacific Exposition 1935-1936 (San Diego)
Old Spanish Trail 1935 *semi key date*
Providence RI Tercentenary 1936
Wisconsin Centennial 1936
York County Maine Tercentenary 1936
Albany NY Charter 250th Anniversary 1936
San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge 1936
Columbia SC Sesuicentennial 1936
Deleware Tercentenary 1936
Norfolk VA Bicentennial 1936
New Rochelle NY 250th Anniversary 1938
Iowa Statehood Centennial 1946
Optional w/justification:
Pilgrim Tercentenary 1920-1921 (Half portrait, not a bust or head)
Missouri Centennial 1921 (A Frontiersman - Symbolic figure) *key date*
Arkansas Centennial 1935-1939 (Liberty and Indian Chief - Symbolic figures)
Elgin Ill Centennial 1936 (Pioneer - Sybollic figure)
Hawaii
Antietam
Spanish Trail
Grant w/Star
<< <i>so John(or anyone else), if you were only going to have a dozen or so Commem Half-Dollars, what would your "Key Issue" set consist of?? >>
The top half dozen is very easy for me...
1. Antietam
2. Stone Mt.
3. Gettysburg
4. Grant
5. California
6. Arkansas