Hypothetical #15 - Probably fake 1796 half dollar

MrEureka

You're a dealer and you buy a collection of counterfeits, as counterfeits, from a longtime counterfeit collector. There's a 1796 half dollar in the deal that appears to be heavily worn, corroded and polished. You think there's a slim chance it's real. You send it to NCS for authenthication but they call it a fake. However, you still think it might be real. You then offer it to another dealer for $10,000, telling him that it's from an "old collection" and that "it's on consignment so it needs to be an "as is" deal". (The implication is that you will not have recourse with your fictitious consignor.) He buys it. Later, he learns the whole story and wants to return the coin. Do you have to refund the money?

construct

Of course. I can't believe I would do such a thing!

Steve27

"Do you have to refund the money?"

Yes, it's illegal to sell fake coins/currency.

MrEureka

Yes, it's illegal to sell fake coins/currency.

How do you know it's fake?

nwcs

It was unethical to sell it in the first place but not illegal in this circumstance. I think the moral decision is that the dealer should return the money.

elwood

<< <i>an "as is" deal". >>

braddick

Coins are warranteed as genuine for life. A counterfeit is returnable anytime it's discovered by the buyer as being so unless it is purchased as a counterfeit collectible.

BillJones

I would not offer it to the dealer with a clean bill of health in the first place. If I thought that the piece was genuine, I'd mention that, but that it had flunked at NCS. The dealer knowing the full story could buy it on speculation. If I told the dealer everything and the item turned out to be bad, I would not make a refund. My conscience would be clear.

291fifth

Dealer ethics...need I say more?

AlaBill

You have consumated this deal based on deception. You first thought the coin real, but a uninterested third party determined it to be counterfeit. You then come up with a "story" to sell to a dealer. Absolutely flawed deal and refund is appropriate.

Longacre

Refund the money. You should not have blatantly lied to another dealer as to the coin's history.

ritepath

I couldn't sleep at night if I did that to someone. Oh wait I wouldn't do that.

ziggy29

Because you know NCS returned it as a fake but didn't tell the buyer, you are not disclosing all of the material information an informed buyer needs to decide whether to go ahead with the deal. So yes, you have an obligation to refund the money.

Julian

I would not have told the story, so.....

Shamika

I should not have represented it as anything other than what it was. If I sincerely thought it's real, I would share the story with any potential buyer, saying that NCS believed it was fake, but that I think it's real.

I'd refund the deal.

csw

The "as is" term defeats the buyer's claim. Without that condition, however, seller would be liable for damages. Seller omitted material information: that the coin was from a collection of counterfeits and, more importantly, that NCS had examined the coin and concluded it was fake.

mgoodm3

You misrepresented the coin again. Shame on you. If you told him the story and your take on it and he bought, then done deal.

morgannut2

Misrepresentation once again. Liars don't give refunds, but they just should be on a coinshow list of exNG dealers.

jcping

No since there was an agreement "so it needs to be an "as is" deal" so that all sales are final.

mozin

I knowingly sold a counterfeit coin as legitimate so I have no right to sleep nights. A full refund plus interest should be given no matter how much times passes.

MrEureka

I'm going to take the minority view on this one. A refund is not required. My rationale:

1. I don't think you're obligated to disclose all material facts when selling a coin unless you have a special relationship with the buyer that clearly requires you to do so.

2. The facts that were misrepresented were not material. It should not matter why the coin was being offered "as is".

3. The fact that it was offered "as is" provides sufficient warning to the buyer that the authenticity of the coin is in question.

4. You can't assume that NCS was correct in calling the coin a fake. In fact, in this case, I made it clear that the seller really believes that the coin may be authentic. Do you really expect him to be bound by a third party's opinion?

Of course, none of the above means that I don't think the seller is a greasy slimeball.

sinin1

'AS IS'





DONE DEAL




like you said, it could be authentic

Newmismatist

If "You" as the dealer don't refund the purchase price, a Court would order it - maybe with additional damages added on for fraud. Knoweldge and intent are all here and this is an easy case - the selling dealer will lose 99.9% of the time (the other .1% is only when the Judge is blind and the selling dealer is his biggest political contributor - and that would probably get corrected in the appeal).

MrEureka

If "You" as the dealer don't refund the purchase price, a Court would order it - maybe with additional damages added on for fraud. Knoweldge and intent are all here and this is an easy case - the selling dealer will lose 99.9% of the time (the other .1% is only when the Judge is blind and the selling dealer is his biggest political contributor - and that would probably get corrected in the appeal).

Ron - The only way you will convince me of that is over a bottle of scotch at ANA. Loser buys.

Newmismatist

<< <i>If "You" as the dealer don't refund the purchase price, a Court would order it - maybe with additional damages added on for fraud. Knoweldge and intent are all here and this is an easy case - the selling dealer will lose 99.9% of the time (the other .1% is only when the Judge is blind and the selling dealer is his biggest political contributor - and that would probably get corrected in the appeal).

Ron - The only way you will convince me of that is over a bottle of scotch at ANA. Loser buys. >>



Ok, if you insist, but I'm bringing my former partner, and he's a Judge - You sure you want this bet? (But I'll drink scotch wth you anytime, no bets necessary - but as I remember, you "owe" me as I bought last time in Chicago (or was it Orlando - gets a little hazy after that 3rd single Malt) - Wanna go slumming sometime at a few distillerys in Scotland - you in charge of rounding up the designated driver!

ddink

Yep.

MrEureka

ttt

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>You can't assume that NCS was correct in calling the coin a fake. In fact, in this case, I made it clear that the seller really believes that the coin may be authentic. >>



There's a substantial difference between a "slim chance" (as stated in the OP) and "really believes" the coin could be authentic.

But if the coin is sold as is, then it's a done deal. Of course, I believe the buyer could be allowed to take legal action if the coin actually turned out to be counterfeit, since the sale of counterfeit currency is illigal.

WinPitcher

Yes.

Was this a trick question?


Steve

firstmint

Didn't anyone do a proper attribution to the known die states?

How about a weight?

What about checking with a specialist in the series such as Jon Amato or David Davis? Do they have a listing or auction appearance for this item?

There's not enough research going on here for just "a possibility" of the coin in question being genuine.

Authentication is the one thing which must be determined first.

Dakkon76

Knowingly buying the counterfeit coins in the first place is where you have to stop and ask why you're doing it. That's like asking if it's alright to buy a stolen car, knowing that it was stolen. Not only are you buying something that's (or should be) illegal to own, but you're saying that all the events leading up to your purchase were morally alright with you. Anything that happens beyond that, knowing that the items are counterfeit, is criminal and unethical. It's disturbing to hear a coin collector so ethically confused, to say the least.

Coinosaurus

If the seller has doubts about authenticity then that should be disclosed at the time of an "as is" sale.