Home U.S. Coin Forum

Hypothetical #1 - European Vacation

MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
First in a series. image

Suppose you're a novice collector vacationing in Europe. You stumble on a little antique shop and find a really nice looking 1908 $5 Indian priced at 300 euros. You bargain with the owner and pay $250. You bring it home and show it to you local dealer and he wants to buy it. He tells you he grades it 64 and offers you $3000. You sell it. A month later, he calls you and tells you PCGS bodybagged it as a fake. Do you give him his money back?
Andy Lustig

Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
«1

Comments

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Depends, did I already use the money to pay the mortgage??image

    Chris
    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • Tell your dealer he should have sent it to AC..image!!

    If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!! image

    My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
    -----
    Proud Owner of
    2 –DAMMIT BOY!!! ® Awards
  • MadMartyMadMarty Posts: 16,697 ✭✭✭
    Any real dealer would have checked the weight of the coin and figured it was a fake before he bought it. After the coin is gone to PCGS, there is really no way of knowing that it was the same coin you sold him. On the other hand if you bought it from the dealer, the dealer should have known that the coin is a fake and he should refund your money.
    It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Do I want to do future business with him?

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • DHeathDHeath Posts: 8,472 ✭✭✭
    I wouldn't have sold it without submitting it, but if I had, it would depend on who the dealer was. If I know the dealer and know him to be honest and fair, I'd give him back the money.
    Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers
    and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
  • TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would give his money back....but he's on the hook for the grading fee. image
    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is a tough one, but I will go against the crowd. No, I would not give him his money back. He is the expert, not me, and should have known better before offering and paying the money. I might not even have the cash to return. And a month later?
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,282 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Coin?? What coin?? You must be thinking of someone else. image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • jcpingjcping Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭
    Prove me; it is the coin I sold image
    The dealer had a chance to ask for cerification before he purchases it.
    Also, what if the coin came back as MS66, would the dealer pay me the difference between MS64 money and MS66 money? image
    an SLQ and Ike dollars lover
  • michaelmichael Posts: 9,524 ✭✭
    no
  • no no
    Michael
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    No money back. The dealer needs to learn his business.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If it was a grade issue no. But this is an authentication issue here. Yes.

    I would expect the same from a dealer as well. I would also expect dealer to dealer honor authentication failures.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • relayerrelayer Posts: 10,570

    I already spent the money, so he is SOL
    image
    My posts viewed image times
    since 8/1/6
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Claim that once the coin is removed from its original holder, its no longer returnable and besides the 7 day return period has expired.image

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • I didn't knowingly sell a fake, and I'm not in the business of selling gold coins. I'm not even a member of the ANA. I made no representations as to authenticity. I would say no. He is the one stuck with this one. He even set his own price.
    The strangest things seem suddenly routine.
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,267 ✭✭✭
    "Do you give him his money back? "

    Either that or you go to jail, it's illegal to sell fake coins/currency. (However, I would have sent it into ANACS for authentiaction before even considering selling it. Actually, I never would have purchased it in the first place for more than a few bucks.)
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You should return the money if you are certain it is the same coin.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • elwoodelwood Posts: 2,414
    Yes!!!
    It was a fake!! Man you guys are vicious.
    Please visit my website prehistoricamerica.com www.visitiowa.org/pinecreekcabins
  • tell him to pass it on....the joy of finding you spent major bucks on a fake could be never ending. Oh and a real good lesson for those further down the line also.
    There's only One
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    No cash back. The dealer has the obligation to check its authenticity and he assumes the risk of being a coin dealer.
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • Hello,

    Give him/her their cash back (if it is the same coin).

    EVEN though he/she should know better/checked, I think not giving them their money back would result in bad blood.

    If it was just a grading issue, that would be his/her problem.

    ~g image
    I listen to your voice like it was music, [ y o u ' r e ] the song I want to know.

    image

    I'd give you the world, just because...

    Speak to me of loved ones, favorite places and things, loves lost and gained, tears shed for joy and sorrow, of when I see the sparkle in your eye ...
    and the blackness when the dream dies, of lovers, fools, adventurers and kings while I sip my wine and contemplate the Chi.
  • JulianJulian Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭
    Yes
    PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
    I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.

    eBaystore
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,759 ✭✭✭✭
    Is this a trick question? Just as I took a risk, so did he. My gample paid off, his didn't. Besides, he should know better.
    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • partagaspartagas Posts: 2,056 ✭✭✭
    Refund him the money. Selling fake coins is just wrong. Chalk it up to live and learn.
    If I say something in the woods, and my wife isn't around. Am I still wrong?
  • You acted in good faith the whole time. He's the one left holding the bag.

    Having said that: If this is a dealer that you have a long time relationship with

    AND you believe that he wouldn't switch the coins on you

    AND you are financially able to refund the money

    I'd offer to give him his money back minus the amount you paid in the first place.

    He is off the hook for the big loss, and you are not out any $
    Robert Getty - Lifetime project to complete the finest collection of 1872 dated coins.
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    If a friend and a dealer that I would wish to do business again, yes.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • prooflikeprooflike Posts: 3,879 ✭✭
    Heck no, if the dealer is stupid enough to pay three grand for a fake, he should find a new profession.

    What should the novice say "Yeah you were stupid, here's your money back?"

    image
  • coinmickeycoinmickey Posts: 767 ✭✭
    I didn't knowingly sell a fake, and I'm not in the business of selling gold coins. I'm not even a member of the ANA. I made no representations as to authenticity. I would say no. He is the one stuck with this one. He even set his own price.

    That's the answer.....
    Rufus T. Firefly: How would you like a job in the mint?

    Chicolini: Mint? No, no, I no like a mint. Uh - what other flavor you got?



    image
  • JrGMan2004JrGMan2004 Posts: 7,557
    No, dealer's supposed to know his trade, he messed up, he can eat it...
    -George
    42/92
  • cswcsw Posts: 432
    Do you give him his money back?

    Yeah, right. The same way he'd give you the extra $ if it came back as a 66. Nevertheless, let your conscience be your guide.

    image

    Tiger trout, Deerfield River, c. 2001.

  • morgannut2morgannut2 Posts: 4,293
    If it was past the PNG official "14 day return" forget it, no. That's plenty of time for him to have it looked at.
    morgannut2
  • PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 5,880 ✭✭✭✭✭
    it really wasn't a fake PCGS made a typo error and it really is an MS66 PL at thatimage
    Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


  • You bought from a stranger, that was you're gamble. He bought from someone he knew and should expect that it came with an implied guarantee at least that its real. You made a big profit at his expense. If its the same coin then Id so give it back ..but I would bargain to see if he would pick up my 300 loss.
  • njcoincranknjcoincrank Posts: 1,066 ✭✭
    Give them their money back.

    Honestly I am surprised by some of the people here who said to keep the money.

    njcc
    www.numismaticamericana.com
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Like many of these hypotheticals, I can argue it either way. In this case, I would opt for returning the money. He offered you an honest grading opinion and a fair price. He treated you with respect, honesty and courtesy and he therefore deserves the same from you.

    That said, I don't think you're obligated to refund the money. It's just the right thing to do.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • Dealers should know better when buying coins. They're experts right?


  • << <i>Either that or you go to jail, it's illegal to sell fake coins/currency. (However, I would have sent it into ANACS for authentiaction before even considering selling it. Actually, I never would have purchased it in the first place for more than a few bucks.) >>



    He's the expert. Who is to say that PCGS knows more about coins than him? In fact, if this went into litigation, it would be hilarious to watch him talk down his own expertise. "Your honor, I thought it was real, but I don't really know what I'm doing. I mean, just because I'm a coin dealer doesn't mean I'm an expert. Really, I'm just a novice in the business." Get a statement like that out in open court and he can kiss his business goodbye--who will go to a dealer who isn't confident in his own knowledge?

    No money back on this one--and just try sending me to jail. Good luck on that.

    EDITED to add:



    << <i>Heck no, if the dealer is stupid enough to pay three grand for a fake, he should find a new profession.

    What should the novice say "Yeah you were stupid, here's your money back?"

    >>



    That's exactly what 12 men and women in the jury box would say, too.
    I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
  • streeterstreeter Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well I just saw an example of this Monday morning.

    #1 customer sold $3 to shop who sold it to #2 customer 30 minutes later. #2 schlepped it past PCGS at LB.

    Coin was fake. Had nice crud tooimage

    Dealer gave back ALL money to #2 and dealer called #1 --who made up the difference to dealer between bullion value and what #1 got from dealer.

    So I would say that no matter what happens--you HAVE to be responsible for what YOU sell to anybody. Look close when you buy and you'll be eating less fakes for dinner.
    Have a nice day
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So I would say that no matter what happens--you HAVE to be responsible for what YOU sell to anybody.

    Why should we have to do what they did?
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • joefrojoefro Posts: 1,872 ✭✭
    I agree with DHeath, why in the hell would anyone try and sell a coin that valuable without trying to get it slabbed themselves first?image
    Lincoln Cent & Libertad Collector
  • DHeathDHeath Posts: 8,472 ✭✭✭
    Thanks Joe. Its one thing if you're a doofus off the street that has no idea whether you're selling chocolate wrapped in foil or a Stella, but a coin person has to know if they profit from a fake at another coin person's expense, well....... I once had the opposite happen. I bought the coin pictured below from a local shop. It was part of a fresh buy, and the owner knows about as much about these as I do (very little). It is a struck counterfeit that is the right weight, size, and content. I think it was of Lebanese pedigree. I submitted it and it came back in a bag. The next time I was in the shop, the owner said "Did you submit the $5?. I think it's fake. All the others were", and offered my money back without my asking. I felt terrible for him. I traded it for inventory. Regardless of his dealer status, or the expertise he should posess, he ate a pretty good sized chunk. I'm just as accountable as he is, because we were both guilty of the same crime. We both bought a coin we weren't smart enough to buy raw. image To Andy's point, I'm not sure why it matters whether you're a dealer if your lack of skill or inaction causes financial damage. JMO

    image
    image
    Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers
    and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
  • I agree that if you know it's fake and you try to pass it off on a dealer, who accepts it as legit, that's wrong. But if you think it's legit, and the dealer thinks it's legit, then awhile later he tries to get his money back from you because three folks in a grading room somewhere felt it's not legit, tough noogies. Coin dealers are supposed to be the experts, and they have no business buying raw coins if they don't know how to authenticate them--they should stick to plastic.
    I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As long as the seller had no knowledge that the coin was not authentic, it's a done deal. As far as I am concerned, anyone who buys a raw coin without the contingency of it a) being genuine and b) grading where he thinks it should grade, is taking an enormous risk and must accept the consequences.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • BustmanBustman Posts: 1,911
    NO.
  • ARCOARCO Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "He tells you he grades it 64 and offers you $3000"

    If the coin had come back to the dealer and authentic as a 65 or 66, would the dealer split the profits...same answer you give will apply to refunding the money on the coin.

    Tyler
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ttt
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • crispycrispy Posts: 792 ✭✭✭
    I don't know what I find more surprising: The reponses to the proposed question or the fact that I read the whole thing and then realized that the thread's almost three years old.
    "to you, a hero is some kind of weird sandwich..."
  • No.

    The dealer is responsible for his own purchases.
  • DJCoinzDJCoinz Posts: 3,856
    Nope. The dealer should not have purchased the coin if he was unfamiliar with the series and/or detecting counterfeits.
    aka Dan

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file