Home U.S. Coin Forum
Options

1793 Chain vs Wreath - can U tell the difference by just looking at the edge and not obv/rev???

I have a 1793 Large cent graded PO01 by ANACS. Its graded as a Wreath but the coin is SO worn, I'm not sure how anyone could tell. There's a hint of the top of the head on the obverse so its not unreasonable its a Chain or Wreath. However, I'm at a loss as to how ANACS figured its a Wreath or Chain. Perhaps by the edge? Is it a lettered edge and if so, can one distinguish a Chain from a Wreath by the edge lettering???? Any help most appreciated. Guess I'm trying to decide whether I crack the coin so I can see the edge....without knowing that, I have no way to KNOW what the coin really is.........

image
image
Craig
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!

Comments

  • GonfunkoGonfunko Posts: 1,484 ✭✭✭
    I'm not only wondering how they established the type, but how on earth they got a Sheldon number on that! image
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    I don't have a clue, but that coin is very high on the coolness meter!

    Russ, NCNE
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,294 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, if there's any argument for a grade of "Poor-0", you've got it.
  • FatManFatMan Posts: 8,977
    Maybe they flipped it "heads or tails" to decide......nah, that wouldn't have worked either.image

    That is a very cool coin.image
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 6,042 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm assuming you are showing us a pic of the reverse . . .
    Doug
  • PistareenPistareen Posts: 1,505 ✭✭✭
    This is one of the only coins I can think of that can be identified solely by the edge -- no obverse or reverse necessary at all.

    The ONE HUNDRED FOR A DOLLAR edge followed by two leaves (not one leaf) is found only on the Sheldon-11b wreath cent. S-11a has a Vine and Bars edge (like most other Wreath cents), and S-11c has the ONE HUNDRED FOR A DOLLAR edge with one leaf.

    What other coins can be identified just by their edge? Maybe the experimental edge half dollars of 1809, some patterns (like the 1885 Morgan dollar with edge lettering), what else?

    Edited to correct the typo.
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The ONE HUNDRED FOR A DOLLAR edge followed by two leaves (not one leaf) is found only on the Sheldon-11b chain cent. >>



    So, ANACS got it wrong? Or, is there also an S-11B Wreath Cent?

    Russ, NCNE
  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 22,382 ✭✭✭✭✭
    John,

    Are any of the bust half varieties that are missing letters/words, like FIFTY OR A DOLLAR, distinguishing of a specific date/type?

    Jeremy
    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • raysrays Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It was my understanding the chains were smaller in diameter, but thicker, than the wreaths.
  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 22,382 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It was my understanding the chains were smaller in diameter, but thicker, than the wreaths. >>

    If that's true, is there a certain point when wear/corrosion could make that too inexact a measurement to use?
    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • BarryBarry Posts: 10,100 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The ONE HUNDRED FOR A DOLLAR edge followed by two leaves (not one leaf) is found only on the Sheldon-11b chain cent. >>



    So, ANACS got it wrong? Or, is there also an S-11B Wreath Cent?

    Russ, NCNE >>


    Pistareen made a typo. All the S-11's are Wreaths. Neat piece of info!
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,783 ✭✭✭✭✭
    S-11a has the vines & bars edge, just like the earlier wreath cents.

    S11-b has the legend, "one hundred for a dollar," on the edge with a double leaf at the end.

    S-11c has the legend "one hundred for a dollar,". on the edge witha a single leaf at the end.

    Since the definiation of a BS-1 (Basial State - 1) or Poor -1 is, "variety indentifiable," that's why this coin is a Poor-1.

    Personally I would not buy this coin on a bet, especially since I can't see the edge in the slab. I need to see something other than a disk of copper. BUT from a technical point of view the grade is correct if you can see two leaves on the edge. BTW the edge is so strongly imprinted on the coin, it would take MUCHO wear to make that disappear!
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • PistareenPistareen Posts: 1,505 ✭✭✭
    Russ --

    Brain fart. A typo as Barry indicated.


    Jeremy --

    Those kind of errors are just caused by misalignment of the two dies in the Castaing machine, so it could happen on any variety of bust half. It may be more common on some varieties than others though, but no one has done the research (Russ Logan did some before his passing -- he undoubtedly would have puzzled out many more great mysteries had he lived to a ripe old age). He did describe a broken collar on a particular dime (1832 I think?) where a cud developed in the reeding, so that would be a variety you could discern from the edge. There is a LOT of work that could still be done on edge dies, like the recent discovery of which edges dies were used on what Wreath cents during the Strawberry Leaf work at the ANS. You're young. Need something to do for the next, say, 30 years? Better start photographing edges!
  • ColorfulcoinsColorfulcoins Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭
    Great info - exactly the kind of information I hoped for!

    I tried crossing the coin in the holder at PCGS - no go. I also showed the coin to David Hall and he looked at me, smiled, and said "How can you tell what it is?", to which I replied "Perhaps from the edge/reeding". He nodded his concurrence, shook his head and gave me back the coin. I looked at him again and asked "Will it cross" to which and he smiled again and said "who knows, give it a try".

    So, perhaps my best best bet is to crack the coin, verify the edge reeding diagnostics and send it in raw.....and wait to see what happens! Anyone wanna take any bets? Getting a PO01 Wreath would sure be a nice downgrade in my Type set for my AG03 Wreath - which the Vine and bars type (11a) type.

    image

    I'll post some pictures of the edge reeding for a final opinion......and then the truth will be known! Risk is low as I only paid $200 for it.
    Craig
    If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 6,042 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Go for it! What is the downside???
    Doug
  • Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 7,396 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Even on a POOR 01 Chain Cent the chain is the last thing to wear off. Even a smooth Chain will have a hint of chain links or chain link and that is the givaway there. JUst thought I would throw that in, Bill and Pistreen have covered the rest, as usual extremely well!

    Tbig
  • SpoolySpooly Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭
    Sweet!
    Si vis pacem, para bellum

    In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file