Baltimore Show-My view

MICHAELDIXON

I spent most of the day at the Baltimore Show walking the floor. Nice, higher priced early coins seemed to be selling well. The common stuff didn't seem to be moving. I took quite a bit and all the high dollar coins went fast, but the low dollar stuff came home with me. High grade Lincoln cents, both early and modern, seemed to be in great demand. When I left, one boardmember was looking at a killer Proof Cameo 2 cent piece. I wonder if he bought it?
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Tootawl, Jeremy, Newsman, Bigtarget(?) and I went to lunch at the Wharf Rat. Them rats sure taste like regular fish! I really couldn't tell the difference.

Garneteye

Thanks for the report!

Dan

JrGMan2004

What'd you have at the Wharf Rat?

I had their Chili this summer, and it was GREAT!!

BigTarget

Them rats taste like fish from hanging out at the wharf all day. They get that ocean seasoning on them. Wonder how they would taste with a little Old Bay?

michael

great report keep them coming

au58

Everything tastes better with Old Bay.

kieferscoins

Thanks for the show report. Now that it is over what is your view?

Cameron Kiefer

coinmickey

Interestnig that folks seem to think it was a good show. Maybe it was and maybe not...

However, can someone explain to me why the dealers were gone or packing up at 1PM on Saturday? Major dealers were gone at that point. What made it worse was that they started bringing the kids through for the "coin grab" around that time. What does it say to them that the floor is partially empty or that they see dealers packing it in before their eyes?

I know there have been threads on this before but if nothing else, it was another example that these shows are heavily weighted toward the trade and the public (i.e.-us collectors) gets the short end of it.

JMHO...

Merc

Yep, it was sad by Saturday afternoon. I was there at 10 am and DLRC had left Friday! They were just there for dealer day and stayed for a bit Friday. Some dealers have no interest in doing retail sales in person at shows.

xbob

At around 3:00 on Saturday there were a lot of abandoned tables. An announcement came on over the hall saying, "Some of you dealers are absolute animals! We will be charging a $100 clean up fee to any tables that leave trash behind." Unfortunately, a lot of them did leave trash all over the place. I really hadn't noticed until I heard that announcement. The show really looked "over". I really enjoyed it though while it lasted and in August I may try to go on Friday rather than Saturday.

Anybody go Sunday? Did you hear wind and crickets?

BillJones

<< <i>Yep, it was sad by Saturday afternoon. I was there at 10 am and DLRC had left Friday! They were just there for dealer day and stayed for a bit Friday. Some dealers have no interest in doing retail sales in person at shows. >>



The trouble is there is very little retail business to be had at these shows. Super bourse dealers who walk in with the Gray Sheet and expect to buy popular coins at those prices will go home empty handed. As a super bourse "early bird" dealer I've got to go through a lot of material and be willing buy most anything to get an good deals. A collector who has a narrower focus will have an even harder time.

Many collectors expect to go to the shows and buy at Gray Sheet prices, and that's just not happening these days. For that reason the dealers don't bother to stay around to work with them.

I've said for years that Sunday is a waste of time. But sadly Saturday is getting to be a waste of time too. And as a dealer I'm sorry about that, but in this market, you can't buy nice coins at cheap money for the most part.

wayneherndon

As everyone knows, Sundays are virtually always a slow show day. For this particular Baltimore show, it was further complicated by the fact that there was a huge St Patrick's Day parade in front of the convention center on Sunday afternoon. I had to drive one block to load up and it took around 40 minutes. I had to work it out with 4 different traffic police officers, have them clear an intersection that was previously bumper to bumper stand still traffic, remove two barricades and block off another street so I could go up it the wrong way in order to get to the rear of the convention center. Had any one of the officers refused to grant me a traffic control exception, I would have been hosed. So, not only was there little business on Sunday but the parade also greatly inconvenienced those dealers staying until Sunday. I'm sure more than the usual number decided to leave on Saturday instead. Still, we stayed through early afternoon on Sunday as did TBT who was co-tabling with us. While our sales for the day were nearly nonexistent, one customer did come by our table with a high grade key date coin for sale and we were able to come to terms on the piece.

WH

RYK

IMO, coin shows do not exist in their current state for the purpose of collectors to shop for nice coins.

Barry

<< <i>IMO, coin shows do not exist in their current state for the purpose of collectors to shop for nice coins. >>


At least in the dealers' minds. In the long run it's going to come back to bite them, as they turn off collectors from going to the shows. Don't forget, the market will not always be like it is now.

RYK

<< IMO, coin shows do not exist in their current state for the purpose of collectors to shop for nice coins. >>


At least in the dealers' minds. In the long run it's going to come back to bite them, as they turn off collectors from going to the shows. Don't forget, the market will not always be like it is now.

Maybe. Maybe not. Perhaps this internet has caused a shift in the coin retailing model. With improving coin photography and dealers increasing use of the internet as a marketing and sales tool, everyday is a coin show if you want it to be.

wayneherndon

IMO, coin shows do not exist in their current state for the purpose of collectors to shop for nice coins.

Are you just talking about the majors or also the regional and weekend locals?

Major shows have to cater to a lot of different constituencies. At a major show, there are:

--retail dealers that do concentrate on selling coins to collectors.

--wholesale dealers that come to the show strictly to do business with other dealers.

--auction houses that take tables for lot viewing only.

--grading services.

--others in the industry that deal with the public and dealers but don't necessarily sell coins at shows but instead just want a presence to promote their brand (e.g., the Mint, Teletrade, eBay, Coin World and Numismatic News, clubs like the ANA, etc.).

Some of these entities do not come on Sunday because their target audience is not at the show on Sunday.

WH

RYK

IMO, coin shows do not exist in their current state for the purpose of collectors to shop for nice coins.

Are you just talking about the majors or also the regional and weekend locals?

I am talking about the majors, especially FUN, LB and B'more, which seem to be trade shows for dealers. The ANA is rich with non-retail bourse and off-bourse activities. A collector can visit the ANA and have a lot of fun without shopping for coins to buy.

Even our local coin shows in St. Louis have become less retail friendly. Many dealers bailing out by 1 PM on Friday for a Fri-Sun show (Thursday is dealer day), show 1/2 empty by Sat afternoon and 2/3 empty on Sunday morning. And the inventory on the floor throughout is weak, for any category of collector.

BillJones

The weak inventories are a reflection of the market. When I get something really nice for my inventory, I have to pay WAY over the published price levels to get it. When I sell that item I have to get WAY over the published price levels to make it work for me.

Here are two examples. I purchased a very well struck, very attractive 1807 dime in an NGC AU-55 holder. I paid WELL OVER the Gray Sheet "ask" bid for that coin. I purchased the piece without even a second thought because the coin was that outstanding for the issue. (Most 1907 dimes were made on damaged dies. Beyond that most pieces have cleaned or abused. Really nice ones are hard to find today.) When I sold it, I made my usual 10% mark-up. Another was a 1799 dollar in PCGS VF-30, which was totally original with no defects. Once more I had to pay way over "ask" to get it. And I sold to another dealer for a similar mark-up.

Collectors just don't realize how much one has to pay for really nice collectors' items these days. No, it's not double or triple bid, as it was in the cazy late '70s, BUT REALLY nice coins bring strong prices. AND it's only the off-quality stuff that often sells for close to the "bid" levels.

Collectors who run around and pull the Gray Sheet or worse yet, the Blue Sheet, just don't know the score. And when they become abusive because dealers won't sell to them at "bid" or less than "bid," the dealer's reaction is, "Why bother with them?"

DeepCoin

It seems to me that one of the issues is that the "Sheets" are NOT up to date on the values. If they are to be used in any meaningful negotiations the sheets must have some degree of accuracy. From what I hear, they are not all the valuable as a pricing tool right now.

It should also be remembered that they are a TOOL, not the bible with regard to pricing. If they are going to publish pricing, then it MUST be up to date or they have done a disservice to both the dealer and the collector.

BillJones

Some parts of the Gray Sheet are WAY off. Chief among these are the pricing from early silver dollars and just about every other early coin, key date coins, and popular varities, like 3 legged Buffaloes. I don't know why the Gray Sheet have not fixed the bids for some of these coins. The early dollar bids in particular have been too low for almost three years.

Some other parts of the Gray Sheet pricing are a reflection of the overgraded material that is in slabs. Yes, it would seem that some coins should list for more than what shows on the sheets. BUT when you see what qualifies for a certain grade, you understand why the bids are depressed.

It's hard for collectors to understand this because they are not "in the trenches" everyday. BUT like you have written, DEEPCOIN, the Graysheet is only guide. It is not a publication that gives values that are carved in stone.

SellStock

Having gone to the Baltimore coin shows for well over the past 8 years, I've learned the following:

1). Sunday is a waste of time (for the little guy such as myself), so I stopped going on Sundays after 1999.
2). Saturdays dealers are packing up around 1:30 - 2:00 pm or so, so I stopped going on Saturdays after 2001.
3). I only attend the shows on Friday now, taking time off from work.

The show on Friday was interesting. There were about 100 folks or so waiting to get in the door at 10AM. While it was somewhat crowded, I found the crowd to be at its peak around 1 pm or so....I left about 2:30 pm with the crowd size pretty heavy, but trailing off from the 1pm peak.

Moderate high grade 18th century gold was next to impossible to find. I'm talking about $10-$20K for an AU50-AU58 piece.

I always get a good laugh at every show 'cuz there's always one dealer who thinks, for whatever reason, that I'm some small time collector who doesn't know diddly. Case in point...

One dealer showed me a 1955 double die that was graded MS64BROWN. Upon close inspection, I figured he would want about $3200-$3400 since trends is running $3K. though the coin could barely pass for MS64. "We aren't even in the same ballpark 'sonny.' I will sell this to you for $7800. This is easiy a crackout coin that will grade to MS65 and may even get to MS65Red/Brown! I wanted to say "Well, POPS, why don't you crack it out then if you think it will cross?" But, I didn't -- I just left and started laughing to myself. By the way, having looked at dozens of 1955 double dies over the years, I was shocked that the grading service (I won't name it) graded it 64Brown. That had to be the "fleece sale" of the coin show!!