What is happening to PCGS Grading...or am I loosing it???

segoja

Two different submissions with 2 weeks.

Cracked a 1954 nickel out of an old green label PF66CAM holder. Coin was a shot 68CAM or 67 DCAM.
Coin comes back PF64 NO CAM (Not labeled as such). Look at the coin to see what I can learn. Learn nothing..its back in again.

Cracked a 1954 nickel out of an NGC PF67CAM holder hoping it would go 67CAM...It grades 68CAM.

The PF64 NO CAM is nicer than the PF68CAM. Go Figure!

I'd show pics, but my scanner doesn't pick up cameo contrast well enough to help, and no scanner pciks up hairlines.

MadMarty

Just look at some of the submissions on the sheet! People are getting killed all over the place...

coinbuf

It's mess at PCGS right now, I read in an earlier thread that PCGS must have bought stock in the "Big Stick no Grease" company and thay plan to get their monies worth!

Chris

100proof1957

Paging Ben !

Paging Ben Dover !

Would Ben Dover please pick up the house phone !

Baley

there's only one O in "Lose"

and PCGS is anything but LOOSE

fcloud

I just recieved a bunch back. One I thought would go 58 went 63. One I thought would go 63FB went 58. I also had a hammered 1936 I thought had a chance at 66fb went 64fb. Time to break some of those coins out and send 'em back.

mercurydimeguy

I have a thought -- pure conjecture though

I've seen so many garbage coins in PCGS holders lately -- I collect Mercs -- For example I've seen this one coin that was in a 64FB holder and this coin was garbage I also have heard a great number of reports from FUN where most people said that there was a bunch of ugly overgraded coins.

So here's a possibility -- PCGS walked the floor and realized that they slabbed to many crappy coins for their "dealer" buds and now the market has a bunch of crappy, way overpriced/overgraded coins...so they're doing a knee/jerk reaction and scrutinizing grading post-Fun.

I made a bunch of coins pre/during/immediately post FUN show (all raw)...but I had 4 coins linger over past FUN, on which I just got grades today -- I sent them in for upgrades (these coins are SUPERSTARS) -- all 4 coins came back the same grade (but all 4 are undergraded). This could just be a coincidence but it seems as though they have become much more picky over the last few weeks.

My 2 cents

pragmaticgoat

James,

You're not the only one....I cracked out two 1971p pcgs65 coins last month and sent them in....One was a low end 65 and one was high end 65....Both came back yesterday MS64...amazing

Joe

AC7DX

could NGC be headed for #1??

UncleWiggly

I don't like the sounds of this at all. I have 3 submissions in right now.



Jerry

mozin

Maybe the PCGS graders have no more interest in looking at the modern coins than I do.

Datentype

pcgs has been slipping greatly over the past 8 months as they do not have any consistency and the coins are starting to go other places because of it. You can see it by their turn around times i'e. they mmight have added new stupid graders but overall they are not getting the usual coins just huge quantities of easy garde bulk type stuff.

magikbilly

maybe too much time spent researching the wood boxes before selling them to put your valuable coins in - woops, they did not do that
maybe too much time spent on the brilliant signature series...maybe too much time grading bullion...seems like a lot of sales gimmicks lately..and the reholdering continues....

I dunno.


Billy

TorinoCobra71

The tightening continues.........

TorinoCobra71

mercurydimeguy

<< <i>I was happy with my results recently on cross over 5 of 11 with 4 ms67 Washington's and 1 66. >>



Manofcoins, not all the series are getting hammered. I recently had 2 70-S proof quarters come back PR68 (no cam, or dcam) that on this earth I don't know how they didn't at least cam. The graders must be color blind, or something. So modern proofs for sure!

Also, Mercs are being inconsistently graded. I had a coin sent in that I showed to a number of highly-respected dealers/graders (not mentioning names) that all said lock 67FB, shot at 68FB...came back 64FB. I almost fell out of my chair. Out of disgust I sold the coin because I couldn't deal with the lingeing memory. Just heard back from the buyer that he cracked the coin and is resubmitting for grading. If it goes 67FB for him I'll be livid!!

Anyway, certain series are being graded very inconsistently because on the same token, I had a nice 64FB I though had a "maybe" shot for 65FB...came back 66FB. Although I'm pleased, and I'll take it, I wouldn't buy that coin (personally speaking) as a 66FB. So because it goes both ways, I can't say they're tight...but rather incredibly inconsistent on certain series since about January of this year.

bgrice

It can't be good for business for anyone to know what to expect when they either look to buy a PCGS coin or submit one to them to be graded. Granted.... all coins are not equal and grading is subjective, but it's not just modern stuff that's all over the place.

And yes.... QA appears to really be bad. I've seen now 20 slabbed coins in completely the wrong holders in the last 3 months.

Darkhorse

i like pcgs

MacCrimmon

<< <i> i like pcgs >>


Me too!! Where's my MS/SP68 quality Swiss submissions?

NGC? #1? Has Hell froze over? You should have seen the horrid overgrading of the Cheshire collection (some highlights to be sure, but many woofers in UNC. slabs, IMHO at least) ...... did you say INCONSISTENT?

clackamas

I am a Jefferson collector and have cracked out some 65FS coins looking for 66FS only to get 65 no FS or 64FS. My gimme FS coins are geting rejected, i swear PCGS is requireing 6 steps on anything prior to 1985 for FS designation. I had a nearly 6 step 68-S get non FS twice. Now I know I may submit some liner coins from time to time looking for a gift but I have 3 gimme 68-S's that get negd.

UncleWiggly

I honestly think I'm just going to send anything I plan on keeping a long time to NCS and just have them net graded. My grading skills are still bouncing around from beginner to non exisitent. So, for somebody in my boat it makes since to me just to avoid all this.



Jerry

Myqqy

Although people complain about consistency problems, it seems to encourage a lot of folks to keep cracking and resubmitting, thereby increasing revenue......

Deadhorse

<< <i>Although people complain about consistency problems, it seems to encourage a lot of folks to keep cracking and resubmitting, thereby increasing revenue...... >>



Perhaps. Not everybody is going back for more of the same, of that I can assure you. I've talked to too many people who are going accross the street. At least for now.

arlea1957

<< <i>Although people complain about consistency problems, it seems to encourage a lot of folks to keep cracking and resubmitting, thereby increasing revenue...... >>



Not me.... I have about 20 coins I want to submit (and a couple for upgrades), but with all the negatives lately concerning PCGS, I'll either wait or go with another tpg.

LucyBop

<< <i>

<< <i>Although people complain about consistency problems, it seems to encourage a lot of folks to keep cracking and resubmitting, thereby increasing revenue...... >>



Not me.... I have about 20 coins I want to submit (and a couple for upgrades), but with all the negatives lately concerning PCGS, I'll either wait or go with another tpg. >>




go for it, i have hit some pretty decent grades as of late.

Atlantic

This was posted on another thread but this is my last submission
I will explain how this went down, bought all three within the last two years, cracked them out of ngc holders for my album, I have since started a registry set of eagles and indians on the pcgs website, On 04/29/2005 I submitted them to pcgs for grading, I felt confident they would at least all make MS ,these are the first results I got originally

1 21975743 1857 1C Flying Eagle USA Altered Surfaces
2 21975744 1858 1C Small Letters USA Altered Surfaces
3 21975745 1858 1C Large Letters USA AU58

When these results were posted on the pcgs page when I run the submission # I contacted David Hall thru this form in a pm, he responded almost
immediately (within hours) and said he would take a look at them before they were sent back to me,,
I got these results last week, it took about a week for him to get to them, this is far better than the two body bags I had originally but not what I had hoped for, but my question is how can coins go from Altered Surfaces to au58, when the were originally in 63 and 64 ngc holders

1 21975743 1857 1C Flying Eagle USA AU58
2 21975744 1858 1C Small Letters USA AU58
3 21975745 1858 1C Large Letters USA AU58

morgannut2

I don't crack coins out of NGC holders because there really are lots of coins with a bit of rub/ cabinet friction that look MS63/4 but are technically AU-58.

MORGANHUNTER2

I'm getting that old feeling back- send em to Anacs- at least you're not getting screwed out of 30 bucks for 15 day turnarounds and would rather have honesty than the hype.

MNut- are you serious? A ms63/4 could be a au58? does not even come close to being logical- maybe a ms60-61- not 63-64's. Just not possible.

BAJJERFAN

<<"So here's a possibility -- PCGS walked the floor and realized that they slabbed to many crappy coins for their "dealer" buds and now the market has a bunch of crappy, way overpriced/overgraded coins...so they're doing a knee/jerk reaction and scrutinizing grading post-Fun.">>

As I sed once or more times before PCGS slabs crappy coins cuz peeple submit crappy coins. Unless they can find a reason to BB them they have to give the person the graded and slabbed coin that they paid for. How would you like it if they sent yours back with a note saying that we kept yer $30 but dint gade or slab it cuz we think it looks crappy and ugly. As long as they don't overgrade the crap from their "dealer buds" what else are they sposed to do?

stev32k

What ever happened to DH's offer to re-look at several coins to see if they were properly graded? As I recall he offered to re-grade 20 coins per person that were submitted within a specified time frame. Has he posted any results yet?

AbesNeighbor

For those of us that have been around for a while this is a repeat of older postings. Its not PCGS that's slipping, but collectors, who are not graders, that feel shilled when they don't get the grades they EXPECT.

This is not new news.... Has the thought ever occurred that maybe, just maybe the same coins have been submitted so many times that they have finally reached their ultimate grade? They won't go any higher.

K6AZ

<< <i>I don't crack coins out of NGC holders because there really are lots of coins with a bit of rub/ cabinet friction that look MS63/4 but are technically AU-58. >>



Nonsense. I've cracked hundreds of MS NGC Morgans and have never had one returned as AU58. As a matter of fact, I've never had one go more than one point either way.

JRocco

There is obviously a sea change going on. The problem I see is that some coins are worth the 2 or 3 re-submissions it may take to be properly graded - figure $100 bucks to get in the "correct" plastic, the problem comes in when that $100 bucks ends up too large a percent on lower valued coins. At that point, you may crack and re-submit once, but when do you just stop? I cracked an ANACS CC Morgan graded 63DMPL and sent it to PCGS only to be returned in a BB for altered surfaces. The coin was then sent back to ANACS and ended up back in a 63DMPL slab. THIS COIN IS A 63 DMPL.....it was correctly graded twice in a row by ANACS. I guess you could say shame me once shame on you, but they won't shame me twice.

K6AZ

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I don't crack coins out of NGC holders because there really are lots of coins with a bit of rub/ cabinet friction that look MS63/4 but are technically AU-58. >>



Nonsense. I've cracked hundreds of MS NGC Morgans and have never had one returned as AU58. As a matter of fact, I've never had one go more than one point either way. >>




Eric I suspect your results are because you know this series inside and out. I seriously think alot of submitters have

what I call owner bias which simply means they add anywhere b/w 1 and 3 points to the true grade. I still suffer from this

bias at times but I am getting better at avoiding it. Do I think Pcgs is wrong on occasion? Of course about 5% of the time

and those are the 5% I look for. Actually I look for the 2.5 % that are undergraded. Folks if Pcgs loosens up its grading

the next thing that will happen is everyone will complain of poor quality. Also as soon as the pops triple your investment

will drop significantly based on supply and demand. As far as I am concerned I hope they keep it the grading tight and

we all keep complaining. As long as we complain about grades that tells me that Pcgs most likely has it right. If you want ms

67 and ms68 send them to one of the 3rd tier TPG's (however you will only get back PCGS 65 money) >>



I think you've got it. What I see are a lot of marginal coins bought on eBay and then the owner bias kicks in, and let's face it, bias is a fact. I've posted nice images of beautiful MS64 Morgans only to have some with extreme bias call them 62s. The vast majority of coins on eBay are there for a reason, and yes, this even includes marginal PCGS coins.

I've been submitting Morgans directly to PCGS since 2000, and as of my last submission, their standards have not changed in the Morgan series. That's not to say they haven't indeed tightened up in other series, but I can only speak of my experience in the series I collect.

quarterjack

Come on' Craig, you have to admit that Pcgs is grading tighter than a year ago.
Maybe they had gotten a little loose in the past but the problem lies with the consumer being able to keep up with the grading services standards even with the slightest of changes in how critical they are on each coin.

I've noticed a difference.

dave

tradedollarnut

Do Morgans exist in AU58?

Seriously, Morgans are the easiest coin to grade and they exist in tonne quantity in fresh unc. It's hardly fair to make generalized statements off of Morgan experience.

bushmaster8

<< <i>For those of us that have been around for a while this is a repeat of older postings. Its not PCGS that's slipping, but collectors, who are not graders, that feel shilled when they don't get the grades they EXPECT.
>>



1) If you have been around a long time, somehow you must have missed the fact that Segoja is a very competent grader. He is not your run of the mill collector.

2) I don't think it's unreasonable to EXPECT a coin that was cracked out of a PCGS PR66CAM holder to at least get within one point of the original grade the second time around, and certainly retain the CAM designation.

The point is, The high heel PCGS used to be is steadily being ground down.

K6AZ

<< <i>Do Morgans exist in AU58?

Seriously, Morgans are the easiest coin to grade and they exist in tonne quantity in fresh unc. It's hardly fair to make generalized statements off of Morgan experience. >>



Same old tired anti-Morgan nonsense. Half the dates do not exist in large numbers in mint state.

So, what you're saying is someone who collects Morgans should be discounted because they are "easy to grade" and exist in limitless quantities.

tradedollarnut

Nope - just taking the opportunity to make a funny.

Neptune

I don't like the sounds of this at all. I have 3 submissions in right now.

You have VERY good reason to worry Uncle Wiggly.

DrWho

The Doctor, in trying to validate his grading skills, submitted some items. They all came back a point under the Doctors eyeballs. And one 2 points down. Now, the ONE, is a common, blemish free, perfect field coin, with a soft strike (Morgan NO mint). I 'thought' it a 65, came back a 63. With perfect fields, no broken lustre, no contact ticks.

Now the Doctor, in all humility, said; 'well guess I know where my skills are at, but the ONE, just can't understand. If nothing, should have been a 64'. I still think it a 64.

Summary observations: graders did not look at any of the coins for more than 30 seconds, heck lets say a minute. The ONE is a 64, period.

But assume EAC, I can understand it being a 63. However grading is not that tight, at least I don't believe so.

Now the Doctor is really doubting his grading. Was I close, was I way off? At this point who knows.

Thanks you PCGS, for the 'consistency' and waste of grading fees. My 'perception' is that this is gamed in favor of special interests, insiders, etc. The Collector, who is responsible for the hobby (not dealers/wannabes) is, or is not treated the same. Consistency. And I'm not getting into the re-submission krap, cause I just don't have the $$$$ to waste on repeat experiments.

PCGS was wrong on the ONE. The others I can accept. However the experience was a waste of time and money, unlikely to be repeated.

Oh, BTW, PCGS MADE money on the shipping, much like a sleazy ebay seller.

Credibility LOSS from my point of view.

MORGANHUNTER2

Thanks you PCGS, for the 'consistency' and waste of grading fees. My 'perception' is that this is gamed in favor of special interests, insiders, etc. The Collector, who is responsible for the hobby (not dealers/wannabes) is, or is not treated the same. Consistency. And I'm not getting into the re-submission krap, cause I just don't have the $$$$ to waste on repeat experiments.


Well now- are we all (collectors) to think that ONLY the IN folks with PCGS get the grade?

I feel that IF I pay you $30.00 to review my coin(upgrade potential) and tell me it is crap(body bag), then by all means YOU SUCK. This tells me that I overpaid for it- but yet it came out of your holder originally(64pl), and then inform you of such nonsense- would YOU want me to resend the coin for an additional $20.00 to have you re-review what YOUR graders said was a 64pl-12 years ago. Collectors do have a right to honesty, graders should not be bias as to how it got to them in the first place- grade the coin for what it is- (might need to review longer than 6 seconds a side).

It just dawned on me- PCGS is a piece meal work shop- get so many $ per coin graded daily. Know wonder most graders are making 250 large on a slow year.

MrEureka

It just dawned on me- PCGS is a piece meal work shop- get so many $ per coin graded daily. Know wonder most graders are making 250 large on a slow year.

morganhunter2 - Do you have a problem with that?

MrEureka

I feel that IF I pay you $30.00 to review my coin(upgrade potential) and tell me it is crap(body bag), then by all means YOU SUCK.

MH2 - Could it be that it's the coin that sucks? If the coin sucks, does that mean that YOU suck?

Of course, this is all nonsense. Anyone that pays for an opinion has no right complaining when he is given an honest opinion with which he does not agree.

BillJones

Those of you who pay very prices for high grade modern coins should keep this in mind. PCGS is the dominant grader for high modern coins, which gives them a significant amount of control over the supply of these coins. If the market looks soft, they can cut back on the number coins that are made, which lends support to the modern coin market.

Frankly I’m not comfortable spending big bucks for coins with large overall populations in a market that can be manipulated like that.

You may now begin your personal attacks on me as a “modern coin basher.”

MrEureka

If the market looks soft, they are cut back on the number coins that are made

Bill - Do you really believe that PCGS' management would jeopardize their reputation just to support price levels on moderns? Talk about the tail wagging the dog!

eagle7

Sometimes im the window and sometimes im the bug.

BillJones

<< <i>If the market looks soft, they are cut back on the number coins that are made

Bill - Do you really believe that PCGS' management would jeopardize their reputation just to support price levels on moderns? Talk about the tail wagging the dog! >>



We have an honest difference of opinion here.

Yes, historically, when markets went soft PCGS tightened up their grading. Conversely there is ample evidence that standards have slipped during boom market periods. This has been noted too many times to be just a figment of our collective imaginations. It’s been done for classic coin markets on a few occasions. In my view the practice is more dangerous in the modern coin market because of PCGS’ dominate role in that market.

MrEureka

Conversely there is ample evidence that standards have slipped during boom market periods.

Well, sure, but since PCGS was founded, there has only been one bear market: 1991-95. Standards probably "slipped" more during those years than any other five year period in PCGS' life.

BTW, I don't doubt that PCGS is a bit tight at the moment, but I don't think there's anything sinister going on. Being subjective, grading will constantly and randomly loosen and tighten. This is just one of the tight times.

clw54

Heck, enjoy the coin regardless of the number on the slab.

BillJones

<< <i>Heck, enjoy the coin regardless of the number on the slab. >>



When you have a 1954 nickel and it goes from a PR-66 Cam to Proof 64, no Cam, which is what happened to the coin that started this thread, you have gone from a coin that was desirable to a piece low priced of modern junk from the slab grade perspective. Getting hosed like that can take a lot of joy out of ownership - I know that it would for me.

It's one of the reasons why I don't play the crack-out game with the coins that are in my own collection. Coins in the business are another matter...

MrEureka

Getting hosed like that can take a lot of joy out of ownership - I know that it would for me. It's one of the reasons why I don't play the crack-out game with the coins that are in my own collection. Coins in the business are another matter

Exactly!