I see it as business economics pure and simple. PCGS has everything to gain; look how much money just a single coin can make for them by their being ultra 'conservative'. Just reading this post, and many others.... and you can see how many resubmits there are. Each one putting more $$$ into the PCGS pockets. If I were PCGS.... I would love to see those resubmits keep coming in! A nice benefit of grading conservative, as well as keeping the aftermarket market values up for PCGS graded items.
The only problem for PCGS in this is that it can certainly backfire if the customers lose confidence that they will get their money's worth, and will then go to the competitor where more value is seen. They may be getting close to this point, judging by posters comments.
As for me, I submitted some coins last year, and was disappointed enough that I decided this game isn't for me. I do have some gold membership freebies to use up..... so will use those, get some more disappointments, and then go with ANACS or just purchase slabbed on eBay.
Somewhere in that statement there's an assumption.
Agreed. The assumption is that you have a pre-existing knowledge of the TPG's abilities and limitations. In other words, the assumption is that you made an informed decision when you submitted your coin.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
What?! Just because everyone doesn't get there way with grades? Do you expect the same coin over and over and over again to keep going up,up,up in grade? It is not PCGS's obligation to give everyone the big scores. It is there job to grade to the best of their knowledge and expertise. It will slow down all the "watered stock" coins out there.
I like how the Mershon #2 lincoln cent collection had about 18 coins sent in for possible upgrading before the St. Louis sale. I give huge applause to PCGS for reviewing all of them, and not ONE had an upgrade. That's the way it should be. They felt they graded them correctly the first time, and didn't change their mind.
I have seen quite a few PCGS coins that I thought should be DOWNGRADED. NGC is a close second BTW, and we need fair competition with TPG's. If one becomes a monoploy, could abuse power easily because of $$$, and would be bad for numismatics.
<<When you have a 1954 nickel and it goes from a PR-66 Cam to Proof 64, no Cam, which is what happened to the coin that started this thread,>>
Why was it resubmitted? GREED!!!!! What was wrong with it in the 66 Cam holder???
PCGS is making a TON of money from submitters that send in coins to PCGS for "REGRADING", or "CROSSOVER" or even "MINIMUM GRADE".
Take away those options with the requirement EVERY coin has to be submitted raw - What a difference you would see in the overall market. (Of course this will NEVER happen - PCGS revenue will be cut 2/3's!!!). If you are real confident with the biased grade of your own coin, submit it raw. Comes back not a s good as you thought? Ask PCGS to hire you as a grader.
BIll Jones - in a strong way, I agree with you that the PCGS power of moderns could happen. I hope it isn't. I don't collect moderns, but your comments are NOT modern bashing, IMO.
I've looked at a lot of coins, and have bought a lot of coins in the last 8 weeks. I've also had a lot of coins graded, etc. Thus I've made a number of observations.
I'm physically looking at a coin I have in a 5 holder and it's markedly better than a coin I bought from a big time dealer in a 6 holder (received it in the mail yesterday). Another coin I just received/purchased, I have NO idea how it ever made it in to a FB designated holder (although the coin is very nice!), yet one I just got back from grading with MUCH stronger and very full/split bands went NB. Sent in for a designation review -- NB again. It appears, and it could just be a coincidence, when you send in for regrading/designation review, that it's kind of fools money/time. I've sent in 1 coin 2x for regrade and came back the same grade. Cracked it, and it came back 1 grade higher as it should have the first time or on 2 re-grades. That's 3 grading fees paid to get it in to the right holder….hhhhmmmm.
Now the above holds true for coins that are all there. However, some coins just aren't all there, yet collectors or their owners think they are and they get frustrated when their coins don't grade up. Just because some people crack out coins and they grade better doesn't mean they're lucky...the coins are all there, usually. I've experimented a lot...cracked out coins that were liners and they actually came back lower grades...cracked out coins that were strong for the grade and they came back at that grade...and cracked out coins that were way better than the stated grade and they came back higher. Moral of the story -- it's the coin and not the holder. If a coin is truly all there it should grade the same or better than the stated grade, that is if you feel the stated grade is not in line with the actual grade of the coin.
Not that I'm thrilled about the "back to the future" kind of grading that's goin on now, where they're grading 5's like they used to grade 5's 10 years ago. The reason why I'm not thrilled is that there are -- by today's standards -- 3's and 4's out there in 5 holders, and all things being equal...they are not. A coin that makes it in to a 5 holder today is usually much better than a coin that made it in to a 5 holder last year, or the year before that. And the problem with that is that these "less than 5" coins, per se, are being sold for the same prices as today's 5's...and so on for every grade along the continuum. Newbie collectors buy the holder and not the coin, because they don't know any better and trust PCGS. And because the market has gotten flooded over the last few years with lesser quality PCGS coins, when people find one that looks better than all the rest they just saw, they automatically assume it's an upgrade candidate...only to find out on a crack-out or regrade that it's back to the future and the coin needs to look like that now just to be a 5.
That said I don’t dislike the "high-quality" grading standards, personally, but because of the apocalyptic way it was ushered in by PCGS it is causing me, and others obviously, to feel a good deal of pain…until all the less-than-their-graded-quality coins get flushed out of the system the pain will continue to be felt. I don’t see things changing until the posted show reports start sound like “Wow I just saw amazing quality coins on the floor” instead of “Walked the floor for 6 hours and didn’t find anything I liked,” or “The selection of nice coins is slim.” When PCGS slabs (on the open market), once again house the best coins for their given grade, perhaps things will settle down then…or we’ll just have to get used to the new grading methodology.
It might sound like I contradict myself a few times up above – I don’t. Those are my two vantage points (of the situation) coming through. Part of me is somewhat frustrated yet the other part says, “Finally, I’m starting to see some nice coins for the grade in PCGS holders”. These were, of course, mostly graded this year though
It just dawned on me- PCGS is a piece meal work shop- get so many $ per coin graded daily. Know wonder most graders are making 250 large on a slow year.
morganhunter2 - Do you have a problem with that?
------------------------- Andy Lustig
Honestly Andy- I do- if all the grader is interested in is his upside- then his skills are bad- if he has inside information as to how it was submitted, and what price paid for that resubmission- then the house is crooked- simple and plain.
MH2 - Could it be that it's the coin that sucks? If the coin sucks, does that mean that YOU suck?
Of course, this is all nonsense. Anyone that pays for an opinion has no right complaining when he is given an honest opinion with which he does not agree.
No Andy- for all intent purposes- I would think if the coin was a pr66 cam and came back to me as a pr64- which meant a substantial loss in value- I would be looking for a lawyer- to me there is something shaky on the left coast and it has nothing to do with earthquakes. Opinions are like arseholes- everybody has one- including the TPG's- logic would speak clearly if a person sent in a coin- in it's original holder to the SAME company- only to have it downgraded- that is bias- and clearly there have been many people here that have spoken this alleged nonsense you speak of.
I consider myself lucky- if it's in a PCGS holder and it fits the grade- and I hate the little piece of plastic- I'll crack it- put it in my album- keep the PCGS grade tag- and throw the plastic away- when I have the completed set- I'll pay a visit to either the left coast or maybe go to Florida- get them slabbed in sequential order and pay the $$ to have this done- and then SELL tem for there intended value to someone who is looking for this kind of thing- have yet to see a set like this.
Andy: I mean no disrespect towards you- but read between the lines, just like some graders do.
Posts: 6170 Joined: Jan 2003 Saturday June 18, 2005 12:30 PM (NEW!)
Somewhere in that statement there's an assumption.
Agreed. The assumption is that you have a pre-existing knowledge of the TPG's abilities and limitations. In other words, the assumption is that you made an informed decision when you submitted your coin.
no one is twisting your arms to send any coin to any service if you do not agree with the for profit businesses subjective opinion then do not use them
Comments
The only problem for PCGS in this is that it can certainly backfire if the customers lose confidence that they will get their money's worth, and will then go to the competitor where more value is seen. They may be getting close to this point, judging by posters comments.
As for me, I submitted some coins last year, and was disappointed enough that I decided this game isn't for me. I do have some gold membership freebies to use up..... so will use those, get some more disappointments, and then go with ANACS or just purchase slabbed on eBay.
<< <i>Anyone that pays for an opinion has no right complaining when he is given an honest opinion with which he does not agree. >>
Somewhere in that statement there's an assumption.
Russ, NCNE
Agreed. The assumption is that you have a pre-existing knowledge of the TPG's abilities and limitations. In other words, the assumption is that you made an informed decision when you submitted your coin.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
What?! Just because everyone doesn't get there way with grades? Do you expect the same coin over and over and over again to keep going up,up,up in grade? It is not PCGS's obligation to give everyone the big scores. It is there job to grade to the best of their knowledge and expertise. It will slow down all the "watered stock" coins out there.
I like how the Mershon #2 lincoln cent collection had about 18 coins sent in for possible upgrading before the St. Louis sale. I give huge applause to PCGS for reviewing all of them, and not ONE had an upgrade. That's the way it should be. They felt they graded them correctly the first time, and didn't change their mind.
I have seen quite a few PCGS coins that I thought should be DOWNGRADED. NGC is a close second BTW, and we need fair competition with TPG's. If one becomes a monoploy, could abuse power easily because of $$$, and would be bad for numismatics.
Why was it resubmitted? GREED!!!!! What was wrong with it in the 66 Cam holder???
PCGS is making a TON of money from submitters that send in coins to PCGS for "REGRADING", or "CROSSOVER" or even "MINIMUM GRADE".
Take away those options with the requirement EVERY coin has to be submitted raw - What a difference you would see in the overall market. (Of course this will NEVER happen - PCGS revenue will be cut 2/3's!!!). If you are real confident with the biased grade of your own coin, submit it raw. Comes back not a s good as you thought? Ask PCGS to hire you as a grader.
BIll Jones - in a strong way, I agree with you that the PCGS power of moderns could happen. I hope it isn't. I don't collect moderns, but your comments are NOT modern bashing, IMO.
I've looked at a lot of coins, and have bought a lot of coins in the last 8 weeks. I've also had a lot of coins graded, etc. Thus I've made a number of observations.
I'm physically looking at a coin I have in a 5 holder and it's markedly better than a coin I bought from a big time dealer in a 6 holder (received it in the mail yesterday). Another coin I just received/purchased, I have NO idea how it ever made it in to a FB designated holder (although the coin is very nice!), yet one I just got back from grading with MUCH stronger and very full/split bands went NB. Sent in for a designation review -- NB again. It appears, and it could just be a coincidence, when you send in for regrading/designation review, that it's kind of fools money/time. I've sent in 1 coin 2x for regrade and came back the same grade. Cracked it, and it came back 1 grade higher as it should have the first time or on 2 re-grades. That's 3 grading fees paid to get it in to the right holder….hhhhmmmm.
Now the above holds true for coins that are all there. However, some coins just aren't all there, yet collectors or their owners think they are and they get frustrated when their coins don't grade up. Just because some people crack out coins and they grade better doesn't mean they're lucky...the coins are all there, usually. I've experimented a lot...cracked out coins that were liners and they actually came back lower grades...cracked out coins that were strong for the grade and they came back at that grade...and cracked out coins that were way better than the stated grade and they came back higher. Moral of the story -- it's the coin and not the holder. If a coin is truly all there it should grade the same or better than the stated grade, that is if you feel the stated grade is not in line with the actual grade of the coin.
Not that I'm thrilled about the "back to the future" kind of grading that's goin on now, where they're grading 5's like they used to grade 5's 10 years ago. The reason why I'm not thrilled is that there are -- by today's standards -- 3's and 4's out there in 5 holders, and all things being equal...they are not. A coin that makes it in to a 5 holder today is usually much better than a coin that made it in to a 5 holder last year, or the year before that. And the problem with that is that these "less than 5" coins, per se, are being sold for the same prices as today's 5's...and so on for every grade along the continuum. Newbie collectors buy the holder and not the coin, because they don't know any better and trust PCGS. And because the market has gotten flooded over the last few years with lesser quality PCGS coins, when people find one that looks better than all the rest they just saw, they automatically assume it's an upgrade candidate...only to find out on a crack-out or regrade that it's back to the future and the coin needs to look like that now just to be a 5.
That said I don’t dislike the "high-quality" grading standards, personally, but because of the apocalyptic way it was ushered in by PCGS it is causing me, and others obviously, to feel a good deal of pain…until all the less-than-their-graded-quality coins get flushed out of the system the pain will continue to be felt. I don’t see things changing until the posted show reports start sound like “Wow I just saw amazing quality coins on the floor” instead of “Walked the floor for 6 hours and didn’t find anything I liked,” or “The selection of nice coins is slim.” When PCGS slabs (on the open market), once again house the best coins for their given grade, perhaps things will settle down then…or we’ll just have to get used to the new grading methodology.
It might sound like I contradict myself a few times up above – I don’t. Those are my two vantage points (of the situation) coming through. Part of me is somewhat frustrated yet the other part says, “Finally, I’m starting to see some nice coins for the grade in PCGS holders”. These were, of course, mostly graded this year though
morganhunter2 - Do you have a problem with that?
-------------------------
Andy Lustig
Honestly Andy- I do- if all the grader is interested in is his upside- then his skills are bad- if he has inside information as to how it was submitted, and what price paid for that resubmission- then the house is crooked- simple and plain.
MH2 - Could it be that it's the coin that sucks? If the coin sucks, does that mean that YOU suck?
Of course, this is all nonsense. Anyone that pays for an opinion has no right complaining when he is given an honest opinion with which he does not agree.
No Andy- for all intent purposes- I would think if the coin was a pr66 cam and came back to me as a pr64- which meant a substantial loss in value- I would be looking for a lawyer- to me there is something shaky on the left coast and it has nothing to do with earthquakes.
Opinions are like arseholes- everybody has one- including the TPG's- logic would speak clearly if a person sent in a coin- in it's original holder to the SAME company- only to have it downgraded- that is bias- and clearly there have been many people here that have spoken this alleged nonsense you speak of.
I consider myself lucky- if it's in a PCGS holder and it fits the grade- and I hate the little piece of plastic- I'll crack it- put it in my album- keep the PCGS grade tag- and throw the plastic away- when I have the completed set- I'll pay a visit to either the left coast or maybe go to Florida- get them slabbed in sequential order and pay the $$ to have this done- and then SELL tem for there intended value to someone who is looking for this kind of thing- have yet to see a set like this.
Andy: I mean no disrespect towards you- but read between the lines, just like some graders do.
MrEureka
Master Collector
Posts: 6170
Joined: Jan 2003
Saturday June 18, 2005 12:30 PM (NEW!)
Somewhere in that statement there's an assumption.
Agreed. The assumption is that you have a pre-existing knowledge of the TPG's abilities and limitations. In other words, the assumption is that you made an informed decision when you submitted your coin.
-------------------------
Andy Lustig
you know what the coins grade already guys
you want a free market for profit business that offers subjective opinions to agree with you?????????
well life just does not work that way all the time
sounds like all are not happy with how pcgs is pricing your coins
then do not send them to pcgs!!!
put them into a nice coin world slab holder! and price them yourself same coins!!
you are just wasteing your time and money and energy on luxury items
time to chill and get another way to spend your time and $$$$$