FUN crossover attempt @ NGC a load of ......
Crazy4Coins
Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭
....you know what 
Got back home last night from the FUN show. I really enjoyed the time walking the floor. Even won two coins I wanted in Heritage auction, one well below bid. Extremely happy about that
What I am pissed off about is the submission I made at the NGC table. I submitted 11 coins for crossover. Half were in PCGS slabs, the other half were in NTC and one ACG slab. I even gave up a three point spread on the latter two. All came back in their original holders?
Now, I can understand why some would come back that way, but the PCGS slabbed coins I submitted were strong for the grade. They should have reholdered at least in the same grade. There were three coins, one in a old green label PCGS, that should have upgraded. I even had several dealers look at these coins before submitting, including a former grader from NGC. I didn't make a big fuss at their table but they will get a call from me tomorrow.
Does anybody know why they put the red dot stickers on the slabs? Some came back with stickers, some didn't.
I am starting to wonder if they were too busy and screwed up the process.
Needless to say I have about 150 coins almost ready to go in for grading.They will be going to PCGS
I did leave the show smiling though. I got to meet a lot of great people,won two Bust Halves in a Heritage auction I really wanted, was able to score on several Peace VAMs and even sold a few coins.Man, are you talking about a lot of coins though. It took two full days to completely walk the floor. I think I looked at every slabbed Peace dollar there. I will definitely be in Orlando next year.
Randy
Got back home last night from the FUN show. I really enjoyed the time walking the floor. Even won two coins I wanted in Heritage auction, one well below bid. Extremely happy about that
What I am pissed off about is the submission I made at the NGC table. I submitted 11 coins for crossover. Half were in PCGS slabs, the other half were in NTC and one ACG slab. I even gave up a three point spread on the latter two. All came back in their original holders?
Now, I can understand why some would come back that way, but the PCGS slabbed coins I submitted were strong for the grade. They should have reholdered at least in the same grade. There were three coins, one in a old green label PCGS, that should have upgraded. I even had several dealers look at these coins before submitting, including a former grader from NGC. I didn't make a big fuss at their table but they will get a call from me tomorrow.
Does anybody know why they put the red dot stickers on the slabs? Some came back with stickers, some didn't.
I am starting to wonder if they were too busy and screwed up the process.
Needless to say I have about 150 coins almost ready to go in for grading.They will be going to PCGS
I did leave the show smiling though. I got to meet a lot of great people,won two Bust Halves in a Heritage auction I really wanted, was able to score on several Peace VAMs and even sold a few coins.Man, are you talking about a lot of coins though. It took two full days to completely walk the floor. I think I looked at every slabbed Peace dollar there. I will definitely be in Orlando next year.
Randy
0
Comments
P.S. All my coins are headed to PCGS.
42/92
Russ, NCNE
I am still curious what the red dots are used for and why some slabs came back without the dots?
Randy
The Whisker Cheek Collection - Top 50 Peace VAM Registry
Landmark Buffalo Collection
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Anyway all the show reports are good and I wish I was there...
It was all there, but no crossy. So much for grade inflation.
Link to 1950 - 1964 Proof Registry Set
1938 - 1964 Proof Jeffersons w/ Varieties
<< <i>I am still curious what the red dots are used for and why some slabs came back without the dots? >>
Call them on Tuesday... they're customer service is excellent
as if they were first gen PCGS slabs. This will tend to invoke that all the older NGC coins come home for re-grading. More grade fees.
But as someone has stated here before, neither wants to have to pay up for misgraded coins if they tighten up too far.
The crossover system has nothing to do with grading coins properly.
One just has to ignore the whole darn thing.
roadrunner
Actually it'll mean that they would have to pay off for overgraded coins... if the supposition is correct.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
Might have been a clue that they wanted to make the new slabs identifiable??
(Did I use enough "????")
>>>> I didn't make a big fuss at their table but they will get a call from me tomorrow.
Does anybody know why they put the red dot stickers on the slabs? Some came back with stickers, some didn't.
I am starting to wonder if they were too busy and screwed up the process.
>>>>>
the red dots are "no chance"....and never got past first base
as far as ngc vrs pcgs.....
since rick left pcgs for ngc ...ngc has put on the brakes and pcgs has slid right by and is much tuffer now....its not that they are tuffer per se...its just that they slowed down gradeflation and pcgs went by....thus the quality in ngc is better or pcgs quality is worse which ever way you want to look at it....the dealers know it but the people dont yet...since ngc grades more coins than pcgs they can afford to put on the brakes as they gain market tuffness for quality...this in turn forces pcgs to put on the brakes....this in turn has A HUGE IMPACT on submissions to pcgs.....question...how would you like to be a cartel member and submit 4000 coins and write a check for 400,000 in fees and have 293 coins go down in grade or lose in adtion to your 400,000 but another 600,000 in market value...you now have a 1,000,000 loss....therefore you be calling the boss at pcgs so fast your head would spin.......thats what ngc has done to pcgs as you cant stay on a role forever...even the best surfers fall off their boards.....
fact>>> and listen up guys
ngc has great coins in their holders ...(did you not see the hugon collection)...they have just as many as in pcgs holders....yet the prices for ngc has/does lag pcgs....simply because of the clone theory...too many collectors dont know enough about quality ...or dont know what the future will bring ( those who let great coins speak for themselves will do great )....or would be shut out of their pcgs registry sets for owning ngc coins
ngc is going to stop that....those that buy pcgs only cant possibly put the " great set " together and compete with those that buy both...notice i didnt say best ever....notice i didnt say top pop...what i said was "great set"...meaning all your peers in your niche will know if your all pcgs your not a factor...while you might be in your mind...the reality will hit you sometime...be it a year or years..but it will hit you...problem is...if its years your peers will be so far down the road you will need a telescope to see them....
perfect case in point....( i dont not know the pops here as this is just an example )
your an upgrader...youve been doing this for a living for years..your as good as any pcgs grader..in fact you worked there....now take a 88-0 morgan...pcgs has never made a 67...there are 58 coins in 66....you have seen 50 of them and one sticks in your mind as should be a 67....then a moose comes to you vevn better than the one youve seen..a no brainer 67....send it to pcgs 10 times for a pop one 67 and make 20,000 on the coin...no soap...you need to move on ...you send it to ngc where they will put the right grade on it...it comes back in a 67 holder the second time and you sell it for a 10,000 profit instead of 20,000....yep..its cheaper in a ngc holder ( NOW ...KEY WORD...NOW )....so who has the best 88-0 that has been found so far????...yep the guy who buys ngc...and all the pcgs clones... in time.... will be left behind...
MULITPLY THIS SCENARIO TIME HUNDREDS OF COINS IN ALL SERIES
**********BUY THE COIN NOT THE PLASTIC...PERIOD******
and if pcgs does not let you register your set there...move to the ngc registry...thats exactly what i did...along with hundreds of others who have the understanding to do so....as the clones will be left behind
back to the 4,000 coin submission....after your " meeting" you resubmit the 2,000 coins and send another check for 200,000....and boom your 293 coins go up along with another 193....net result...they made 600,000 in fees ...you got your 600,000 market loss back along with the upgraded 193 coins which covers your 600,000 in fees with an additional 200,000 in market value to cover your trouble
and the net net net result is....if you buy from that cartel member...you better buy the coins he tried ( aka PQ )....not the ones he didnt....or.....go into his give up box...and pay him a premium for it as he paid a premium for it....for he better know more than you or he wont be around very long.....for PQ COINS IS WHAT WE ALL WANT AND PAY FOR...NOT LOW END ONES
remember monsterman`s rule # 44.....nice coins arent cheap and cheap coins arent nice
and dont forget my 88-0 example above....as it is....the way it is
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
<< <i>remember monsterman`s rule # 44.....nice coins arent cheap and cheap coins arent nice >>
I thought that was rule #54. What is rule #54?
you sure do have some monsters ...and they look great dressed in a white holder...i guess that why capital plastics make a whote holder rather than a clear one
as far as your shirt....classic....however i do have a friend who makes custome embroidered shirts .....if you get me some art work i can get you some made with a great price....collarded golf shirts or deniem....then we could go to ruths chris for a steak...in fact i think im going to get some made too
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
fat finger error....hit the wrong key......now you know why they dont let me type the inserts...as i have hit that "8" key when i should of hit the "7"
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Thanks for adding some important insights to this thread. It would be nice to see "real" NGC coins get their just due down the road.
roadrunner
Cameron Kiefer
RR,
That probably would not work. If it were the case, one could always pay to have a coin reholdered (without being regraded) and get the coin in the newer style holder. People would be on to it pretty quickly, and the gig would be up.
Monsterman,
Great post!
I dabbled in the upgrade/crossover game about a year ago and ended up mostly with a black eye, a lightened wallet, and nothing else to show for it. I collect coins, not holders. I have coins in rattlers, old green PCGS holders, blue PCGS holders, and 3 different styles of NGC holders. Ideally, for the purposes of display, I would like the coins to be in the same holder, and while I like the clear plastic look and shape of the more recent PCGS holder the best, I have no intention of having my coins regraded or reholdered anytime soon.
this is a confusing statement since it seems to say that PCGS is "tougher now" out of one side of your mouth while out of the other you say that NGC has slowed gradeflation while "PCGS went by" and continues to overgrade/market grade/inflate their standard. the additional confusion is that the whole post pre-supposes that either service even cares about what the other does or that the original topic coins were graded correctly in the first place.
the whole thing reeks of paranoid delusion. but that's nothing new since the belief for some time has been that any PCGS coin will cross to NGC and some NGC coins might cross to PCGS. the primary focus is always the holder with only scant mention of the coin inside. rarely do we see mention of successful crosses yet we always hear about the failures aka sour grapes.
at the same time, it might be nice to remember that the majority of dealers are only marginal as graders. they deal in plastic and can read a mean Grey Sheet and watch out for their own bottom line. you would probably have fared better by having other collectors/forum members play devils advocate before the submission, they have nothing at stake and could have offered an opinion from a better perspective.
al h.
<< <i>Here's a novel concept....How about these so called top third party grading services QUIT playing games and START providing the services for which they do not mind lightening your wallets? Why don't they just grade coins according to each coin's merits, correctly the first time around?
But that would be self-defeating... where would their business come from after they graded all the coins they could?
Steve
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
Reminds me of the old, "The King has no clothes" fable in which he is actually nude yet NOT ONE person will admit the fact that he is. Everyone agrees that his new suit is outstanding, lacking the guts to say that he is actually naked.
part of the Numismatic fable might be that many know the King does have clothes on but insist he's naked. there are always additions to the PCGS/NGC Urban Legend whenever things don't go as planned with the crossover "game" at either service. my very first post here three years ago was about the simple fact that the graders at these top services know more about grading than most of us and certainly look at more coins on a regular daily basis, more varied coins and a larger volume of coins. while some members may have specialty areas where they are more profecient or, at the very least, equal with the majors in grading acumen, the graders at PCGS/NGC have us beat as a whole. it's a simple and sometimes bitter pill to swallow, but the "naked" insistence that the standards are changing get rather tiresome.
those assertions have a habit of resurfacing like a bad case of acne every early spring. at that, they seem to be premature in 2005.
al h.
Why is the PCGS price guide sooo out of touch with reality ?
<< <i>I've been saying for several months now that NGC is trying to "out-tight" PCGS. >>
I agree with Russ here, and I'd add that at least in my specialty (Lincoln wheats), PCGS is getting ridiculously tough on later date, high grade specimens. If NGC trys to "out do" PCGS on these, forget about 67's from either company. I had three '54-S from an OBW roll in for grading at PCGS a few months ago and all came back MS66RD. Every one of these had a strong strike, brilliant luster, and not a single bag mark anywhere! Not one of my other PCGS 67RD's is as "crisp" as these three - I was sure they'd go 67.
PCGS - get real! Hint: Try reading the ANA Grading Standards - Same for you, NGC, if you're trying to keep up with the Joneses.
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
>>>>Now crack them and send them in and see what they get. That would make it really interesting.
>>>
monster man`s rule #1...NEVER ( and thats a long time ) buy a coin i wouldnt crack
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
>>>>>this is a confusing statement since it seems to say that PCGS is "tougher now" out of one side of your mouth while out of the other you say that NGC has slowed gradeflation while "PCGS went by>>>>>
its not confusing at all....its really simple.....i can not tell you this happened...i see it....and its really economic....gradeflation is a fact and both do it.....all you have to do is do a fred flinstone and put out you feet in the gradeflation highway and your competition goes right by...
in the begining in 1986 there were 8 owners of pcgs..in 1987 one left to start ngc...the 7 remaining had 8 friends each who were market makers for pcgs coins thus 56 marketmakers.. the one guy at ngc also had 8 friends who were also marketmakers....thus it was 56 to 8.....so pcgs evolved to be the leader....things have changed now....ngc hired away pcgs`s ace in rick montgomery...its obvious to me when that happened what was going to happen....rick explained to ngc how to reverse the table...he told ngc the achilles heel....you see pcgs is a public company with stockholders and stock options now....not to mention higher corporate overhead....put on the brakes and they will fly right by...or at least level at wing tip to wing tip...where it makes no difference which service you use...this will be good for pcgs as well as ngc as they will both feed off each other....it will be good for pcgs as they will get more submissions from a lot of the nice coins that have left for ngc
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>keets
>>>>>this is a confusing statement since it seems to say that PCGS is "tougher now" out of one side of your mouth while out of the other you say that NGC has slowed gradeflation while "PCGS went by>>>>>
its not confusing at all....its really simple.....i can not tell you this happened...i see it....and its really economic....gradeflation is a fact and both do it.....all you have to do is do a fred flinstone and put out you feet in the gradeflation highway and your competition goes right by...
in the begining in 1986 there were 8 owners of pcgs..in 1987 one left to start ngc...the 7 remaining had 8 friends each who were market makers for pcgs coins thus 56 marketmakers.. the one guy at ngc also had 8 friends who were also marketmakers....thus it was 56 to 8.....so pcgs evolved to be the leader....things have changed now....ngc hired away pcgs`s ace in rick montgomery...its obvious to me when that happened what was going to happen....rick explained to ngc how to reverse the table...he told ngc the achilles heel....you see pcgs is a public company with stockholders and stock options now....not to mention higher corporate overhead....put on the brakes and they will fly right by...or at least level at wing tip to wing tip...where it makes no difference which service you use...this will be good for pcgs as well as ngc as they will both feed off each other....it will be good for pcgs as they will get more submissions from a lot of the nice coins that have left for ngc
monsterman >>
MM, as a corp exec, I've seen employees try this stunt plenty of times, and they always fail. They can't take the mojo with them. You don't have the experience to make these kind of statements. So cut your ego off where it can pretend to be enormous.
now you're starting to sound like one who professes to believe in Nostradamus!!!!! Montgomery has been gone from PCGS for close to two years now, so why weren't you here "warning" us about what we should be expecting when he left?? to tell us you knew then what was going to happen after the fact is just a bit disingenuous.
besides, i'm of the opinion that there isn't anything happening which hasn't happened regularly in the last several years, that being a perceived change by one or both of the top dogs. from my lofty perch's perspective, it's nothing more than a case of complacency by submitters. now that we think one-or-the-other is "tougher" there will be a greater degree of concentration before submitting and the result will be an opinion that one-or-the-other is looser. by the end of March the whole phobia will fade away, as it has in the past, to be displaced by other things and other ways that the services are conspiring to defraud us. it's as regular as the morning constitutional!!!!
al h.
<< <i> Now crack them and send them in and see what they get. That would make it really interesting. >>
This is exactly what I did. I initially sent 7 PCGS graded coins in for crossover they all crossed except for 3. Two of the Coins were toned Morgans in 65, which to my eye should be 66. I cracked them both out and resubmitted them. The results should be posted on the NGC Site in another week or so. I'll post the results when the grades come up on the site.
<< <i>its obvious to me when that happened what was going to happen
now you're starting to sound like one who professes to believe in Nostradamus!!!!! Montgomery has been gone from PCGS for close to two years now, so why weren't you here "warning" us about what we should be expecting when he left?? to tell us you knew then what was going to happen after the fact is just a bit disingenuous.
besides, i'm of the opinion that there isn't anything happening which hasn't happened regularly in the last several years, that being a perceived change by one or both of the top dogs. from my lofty perch's perspective, it's nothing more than a case of complacency by submitters. now that we think one-or-the-other is "tougher" there will be a greater degree of concentration before submitting and the result will be an opinion that one-or-the-other is looser. by the end of March the whole phobia will fade away, as it has in the past, to be displaced by other things and other ways that the services are conspiring to defraud us. it's as regular as the morning constitutional!!!!
al h.
keets, there was more than just a little talk about this happening in the dealer and collector world, you need to exchange the tin foil for a direct connection
<< <i>Here's a novel concept....How about these so called top third party grading services QUIT playing games and START providing the services for which they do not mind lightening your wallets? Why don't they just grade according to each coin's merits, correctly the first time around?
That's called cross at any grade which they do. But if you specify a minimum grade then it's a different service.
what i was attempting to say to the monster is that i don't doubt Montgomery has made a change at NGC and that some suspected this would happen. what's disingenuos and Nostradamic(if that's a word!!) is to come here after the fact and sort of say i told you so. that's pure BS. come here when the change ocurrs and have some sac.
al h.
<< <i> I wonder what anyone's opinion is - as to when NGC started this (new) tougher grading. >>
I can only go by my own submissions which are normally crossovers. On what I have been submitting the tightening up started a few months back. In the last month or so it seems they have been super tight.
<< <i> I submitted four coins (three roosies and a jefferson war nickel) at the show, came back 67*, 67, 67*, 68*....I have no complaints about NGC.... >>
Just thought I'd throw a YOU SUCK at rainbowroosie.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
I was thinking about crossing over some coins to PCGS
Because as I still see The P gets more Than the N.
I had some 39-42 proofs graded between July and November,
Smitty
<< <i>I wonder what anyone's opinion is - as to when NGC started this (new) tougher grading. (ie. What should forum members look for...A certain serial number cut off...what the new holders identifiers are) >>
I don't know if you can trust this method. If I were to sell my NGC holdered coins right now, I might send them in for a $5 reholder fee and get them in the new holders at the same grade, so you would think they were graded under tighter standards.
One of the reasons I'm poo-poo'ing the theories in this thread is because you guys are thinking that this will work in the same way that we have all searched out the older PCGS holders because grading was tighter back then. However, there was a finite supply of them when PCGS switched. It's real easy to get a newer holder out of NGC because they are still making them.
NGC is not going to be able to make their entire product (i.e. all the slabs on the market) consistently tight so that coin buyers will trust the slab as well as they trust the PCGS slab . . . and I'm not intending to open up that other can of worms called "trustworthiness of slabs."
JMHO
......................you're a reasonably intelligent person and astute collector.
al h.
<< <i>I wonder what anyone's opinion is - as to when NGC started this (new) tougher grading. (ie. What should forum members look for...A certain serial number cut off...what the new holders identifiers are) >>
The serial number method will not work as NGC uses the invoice number as the slab number so if you have old invoices from last year or even 2 years ago and use them today they will be the slab number on the freshly graded coins.
<< <i>I don't know if you can trust this method. If I were to sell my NGC holdered coins right now, I might send them in for a $5 reholder fee and get them in the new holders at the same grade, so you would think they were graded under tighter standards. >>
Heheh, I've been saying this for quite some time on here. But folks STILL want to go by these darn new slabs, old slabs etc. etc.
Same goes for any service holder. OK, I'm sorry I know it's all about the numbers (and old holder vs new holder) on the holders.
monsterman stated:
<< <i>thus the quality in ngc is better or pcgs quality is worse which ever way you want to look at it.. >>
Does this make sense then:
While at the FUN show I also attempted to upgrade 5 coins in the older style NGC holder. Since they all reholdered at the same grade and NGC is tightening up now that maybe if I would have tried to upgrade before the standards were raised they might have gotten a higher grade?Makes sense to me.New higher standards and I still got the same grade.Now understand the coins were strong for their grade.No doubt,they were upgrade candidates.
Now, since I read that Rick Montgomery formerly of PCGS has been influential in these higher standards and the fact that (4) of my PCGS slabbed coins that I submitted for crossover did not cross, doesn't this indicate that NGC's new standards are higher than those of PCGS'.
OK now, back to the 5 coins that did reholder in my upgrade attempt.If these coins did reholder at the new higher standards, higher than that of PCGS',obviously because my PCGS coins did not cross, then these coins should upgrade if I send them to PCGS for a crossover, right?
Any opinions on this theory?
Randy
The Whisker Cheek Collection - Top 50 Peace VAM Registry
Landmark Buffalo Collection
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
Randy
The Whisker Cheek Collection - Top 50 Peace VAM Registry
Landmark Buffalo Collection