Toning - What defines NT vs AT
keoj
Posts: 980 ✭✭✭
A couple of questions:
- If someone puts a coin in an coin album, does that consitute AT toning?
- If someone puts a coin on a window sill for 6 months, is that AT toning?
How does one define it? In my mind, AT toning is any event where someone has artificially added chemicals to an environment in order to accelerate toning. Is this a goo one or not?
Lastly, has anyone here ever done the long term coin on a window sill and what were the results?
(I'm expecting to get flamed on this thread...have fun)
keoj
- If someone puts a coin in an coin album, does that consitute AT toning?
- If someone puts a coin on a window sill for 6 months, is that AT toning?
How does one define it? In my mind, AT toning is any event where someone has artificially added chemicals to an environment in order to accelerate toning. Is this a goo one or not?
Lastly, has anyone here ever done the long term coin on a window sill and what were the results?
(I'm expecting to get flamed on this thread...have fun)
keoj
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NT usually is over a long period of time. Now lets define a long period of time. Well that depends on how PigCGS feels, or maybe who does the submitting....they slab those new silver dollars that have been laying on felt for a few months and are purpler than purple......so its really what they think...........Bag toned...now thats a long time. Album toned....old time albums...years and years of tone....thats a long time...decades maybe in my book
Tom
In my opinion, it boils down to intent.
I would agree with this- I consider an AT coin to be one that a cooker has a certain formula for cranking out, and he makes accelerated toned coins to hide problems or prey upon inexperienced buyers...
<< <i>A couple of questions:
- If someone puts a coin in an coin album, does that consitute AT toning?
- If someone puts a coin on a window sill for 6 months, is that AT toning?
How does one define it? In my mind, AT toning is any event where someone has artificially added chemicals to an environment in order to accelerate toning. Is this a goo one or not?
Lastly, has anyone here ever done the long term coin on a window sill and what were the results?
(I'm expecting to get flamed on this thread...have fun)
keoj >>
Flame? What flame?
Is baking considered cooking? Is sunbathing considered aritificial tanning, and working on your job under the the sun considered natural tanning? AT vs. NT? We 'll never agree on these. But, it 's fun to see the discussions, though.
<< <i>- If someone puts a coin in an coin album, does that consitute AT toning?
- If someone puts a coin on a window sill for 6 months, is that AT toning? >>
BOTH are artificial toning, not natural toning.
a coin's natural environment is CIRCULATION. so the question "What defines NT vs AT" is very ez to answer!
ask yourself this: is a window sill a coin's natural environment? the answer is NO
is a coin album a coin's natural environment? the answer is NO
toning obtained outside a coin's natural environment IS NOT NATURAL TONING.
HOWEVER, IT MAY BE PERFECTLY MARKET-ACCEPTABLE
album toning IS M-A. window sill toning IS M-A.
K S
As far as the market is concerned if it resides in a PCGS or NGC slab it is NT. Everything else is questionable and considered AT until blessed by PCGS or NGC.
<< <i>We have this debate all the time. In my opinion, it boils down to intent. Many would disagree with me however. >>
I agree, it's the position I finally arrived at in a discussion in the toned forum about dipping being AT, since it is artificially changing the tone of a coin. An album is intended as a storage device, not an agent of toning change.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i><< We have this debate all the time. In my opinion, it boils down to intent. Many would disagree with me however. >>
I agree, it's the position I finally arrived at in a discussion in the toned forum about dipping being AT, since it is artificially changing the tone of a coin. An album is intended as a storage device, not an agent of toning change. >>
Pharmer, just to stir it up a bit, what if somebody purposely puts a coin in an old album for the sole intent of toning it? The old National Album coin boards marketed by Wayte Raymond used cardboard stock that imparted toning on the coins (unintended) due to sulfer content.
Although these coins would clearly be market acceptable (I would buy them), I would still say these coins were AT due to the originators intent.
Now that wasn't so hard, was it? You guys say this debate has gone on how long? Intent. Done and done.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>a coin's natural environment is CIRCULATION. so the question "What defines NT vs AT" is very ez to answer! >>
In that case a coin will NEVER tone.
AT could be considered intentional manipulation of a coin's appearance with the intent to derive economic gain or advantage. In that light I spose dipping could be considered as detoning for the same purposes.
What about all the GSA dollars and such. This was not a natural environment for coins. Some nice toning has come out of coins stored in canvas bags. IS that AT, I disagree.
Tbig
When people are attracted to the beauty of certain bag toned coins and are willing to pay a premium to acquire them, then the opportunity is there for others to try to produce them intentionally. This would probably be artificial toning to most rational folks.
The fact that such coins are freely bought and sold thru eBay and other venues by either informed or uninformed persons would lead one to consider these coins to be market acceptable tho this acceptance is not embraced by all folks.
<< <i>I would agree with this- I consider an AT coin to be one that a cooker has a certain formula for cranking out, and he makes accelerated toned coins to hide problems or prey upon inexperienced buyers... >>
If one were to to go out and acquire an original Mint issue canvas storage bag, buy 50 rolls of Morgans and put them in the bag and store them in a warm environment for the sole purpose of promoting and accelerating the natural chemical reaction between the coins and the bag components then this would be construed as AT because of intent. Pretty simple IMO.
I don't disagree with you.
Put a coin on a window sill for six months? What for? If one is experimenting to see what colors are produced and subsequently does not represent the coin as having been "genuinely toned" there is no immediate harm done. It is a reference coin, if you will, and I suggest that the experimenter should do his or her part to educate and inform others of findings. The coin was made with intent to inform and educate, not only self but others as well. The coin made with this intent is GT or "genuinely toned."
Having said this, the window sill toned coin could, but not necessarily, be considered FT or "Forged toned" if it falls out of the hands of the original, well-intentioned experimenter and into the hands of one intending to commit larceny.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>In the strictest sense, all coins are "market acceptable." These words have no real meaning to me. >>
Very True and that would seem to be borne out by the fact that people willingly purchase net graded and low grade or damaged coins each for their own reasons of course.
jom
<< <i>I guess a lot of people feel the same way which is the reason this practice proliferates as easily as it does. >>
There is more to it than your simple antidote. The fact is people pay too much for these coins. A little bit of education on the part of the buyer would go a LONG way in hindering this "proliferation" as you call it. ALL coins have a value, even ones that are so-called "AT". So if one educates themselves and they are a fully capable buyer then does it really matter whether it's AT? As long as the buyer knows what he is getting they his buy price will be in line with the value.
jom
If I keep my Wayte Raymond pages in the safe deposit box then the coins will be NT, but if I put the same pages on my water heater to speed things up then it's AT. Right?
The real problem is the use of chemicals and blow torches to deliberaely create coins with toning patterns never observed to occur under ordinary storage conditions. This is just as devious as altering dates or mintmarks to convert a common date/mm coin into a rare date/mm coin for the purpose of financial gain.
<< <i>I'm not sure I understand yet. >>
And some never will; it aint rocket science.
<< <i>but if I put the same pages on my water heater to speed things up then it's AT >>
Not exactly. If you speed things up 2.32X normal then it's still NT. If it is between 2.33X and 5.53X then it's considered 50%AT if above that then it's 100% AT. Of course, as time goes on we'll need more "accuracy" in the grading of the AT so a 70 point system can be used.
jom
it's IT vs. AT
Intentional toning vs accidental toning
Intentional is done in the short term to try to increase the eye appeal of a coin. Accidental is something that happens - accidentally.
just my 3 cents
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<< <i><< a coin's natural environment is CIRCULATION. so the question "What defines NT vs AT" is very ez to answer! >> In that case a coin will NEVER tone. >>
you can't be serious! by far MOST circulated coins DO HAVE TONE! it's grey tone in the case of silver, brown tone in the case of copper. those are just about the ONLY NATURAL TONING COLORS for the enormous majority of coins.
if your talking about unc coins, then the color obtained from being in BANK ROLLS, which is the intended storage medium for such coins, is the NATURAL environment for them.
<< <i>AT could be considered intentional manipulation of a coin's appearance with the intent to derive economic gain or advantage. In that light I spose dipping could be considered as detoning for the same purposes. >>
"ARTIFICIAL" means "NOT NATURAL", so "artifiical toning" simply means "NOT NATURAL TONING". that's why i say, all you have to decide is, what's a coin's NATURAL environment.
it really, truly is a simple concept ......... until MARKETING comes into play. all the endless arguments & discussions that lead nowhere, & blunders & coin posse's & body-bags & net-graded coins (for a-t) & false accusations, etc etc, those all come about as a result of MARKETING HYPE, & really have nothing to do w/ whether it's really artificial tone or not.
K S
I was referring to the brightly colored rainbow and monster toning which would probly wear off from handling. I really didn't think I would have to spell it out but apparently I do. No one cares about ugly grey or brown toning on a coin.
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<< <i>I'm not sure I understand yet.
If I keep my Wayte Raymond pages in the safe deposit box then the coins will be NT, but if I put the same pages on my water heater to speed things up then it's AT. Right? >>
Tonelover,
In my opinion, what you are doing to your coins would be considered artificail toning IF AND ONLY IF you are using the Wayte Raymond pages for the sole intent of creating attractively toned coins.
If, on the other hand, you just like the "old time look" of your coins stored in Wayte Raymond pages, then the toning that will occur will be considered natural.
Irregardless of your reasons, since future owners of your coins (no, you can't take'em with you
This is why it's nearly impossible to make an AT/NT judgement since we really don't know the history of a coin or it's owners intent. A coin should simply be viewed as Market Accepatble or not.
<< <i>I was referring to the brightly colored rainbow and monster toning which would probly wear off from handling. I really didn't think I would have to spell it out but apparently I do. No one cares about ugly grey or brown toning on a coin. >>
BWUAHAHAHAHAHA! you think more people collect UNCS then collect CIRC'S??? BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
the point is that that knowing something ABOUT circ's would teach you alot about the futility & stupidity of the so-called "nt vs at argument".
K S