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How is this even possible?!
braddick
Posts: 23,133 ✭✭✭✭✭
I bid on this Kennedy and watched it close on the 17th with a bidder stepping in and sweeping it out from under me.
NGC MS65 Kennedy
Now I see the same coin listed by the same Seller as the first time around, just a four days later:
NGC MS65 Kennedy
I'm disapointed and puzzled.
NGC MS65 Kennedy
Now I see the same coin listed by the same Seller as the first time around, just a four days later:
NGC MS65 Kennedy
I'm disapointed and puzzled.
peacockcoins
0
Comments
Seller is a board member if I recall...just FYI.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
It's not like is was won by someone like ImATotalLoser(-2).
Hmmmm....might be worth pinging Fairtraderz. Maybe they used the wrong image?
Dave
1901 NGC65 cent "won" for $86
Same coin, now he's an underbidder at $85
1909 VDB "won" for $45.54
Same coin, now he's an underbidder at $60
And braddick, he's won that Kennedy a couple of times now:
Once on Dec 3 for $26.02
Again on Dec 17 for $67.67
Would love to see the seller drop by and explain this.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Should change his userid to "Unfairtraderz"
Buyer "ontime" has received no feedback comments from fairtraderz either
fairtraderz has received quite a few positives from ontime tho.
On the surface this would appear to be a shill.
<< <i>Buyer renigned and seller didn't bother trying 2nd chance offer?
Seller is a board member if I recall...just FYI. >>
What is his handle on the board. Want to avoid this chump!!
My EBay Store/Auctions
Here's their website: Linky Doodle
Cameron Kiefer
This sold on Nov-28-04 for $66. buyer was (ontime)
2003-S PCGS PR69DCam Silver 25c Set
Now its listed again by the same seller (fairtraderz) ends Ends Dec-24-04
The high bidder is (huskerlynn) @ $66.
http:// 2003-S PCGS PR69DCam Silver 25c Set
Its listed for the 2'nd time by the same seller (fairtraderz) ends Ends Dec-24-04
The high bidder is again (huskerlynn) @ $66.
http:// 2003-S PCGS PR69DCam Silver 25c Set
How many shill bidders does he have?
He also sold this on Nov-28-04 for $45.54 the buyer is (ontime)
1909 VDB PCI MS66RD Lincoln 1c
He's relisted it again on Dec-14-04 Its selling @ $60
1909 VDB PCI MS66RD Lincoln 1c
We saw one the other day with those toned Morgans (and an atrocioiusly lame, meritless defense), and this is number two in as many days.
And I don't care what the explanation is -- these individuals are frauds.
1901 NGC MS65BN Indian Head 1c Cert# 1807710-005
Selling again
1901 NGC MS65BN Indian Head 1c Cert# 1807710-005
L. Schuch R.C. has been in the rare coin business for more then 20 years. John has a solid reputation for moving coins.
Yeah, moving the same coins to and from the same bidders -- on multiple occasions, no less.
Being a member of Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS), Numismatic Guaranty Corporation of America (NGC), The Professional Numismatics Guild, Inc. (PNG), Industry Council of Tangible Assets (ICTA), The American Numismatic Association (ANA), Central State Numismatic Society and the Michigan State Numismatic Society, John is very well known in the coin industry.
Good -- then I guess these organisations will "know" what to do about this illegal, blatant shilling. Time for the ANA to step up and protect the little guys.
After 8 months it began to spread fast in the eBay community. After months of fine tuning we have become one of the top elite coin dealers on eBay.
It sure did spread fast -- and by Fleebay standards, they really are elite. An elite scam.
With a feedback rating that is incredible and a five star customer service, we guaranty your satisfaction.
How reassuring.
1'st time
1964 NGC MS65 Kennedy 50c, COLORS! cert#1775670-052 Dec-03-04 (ontime) $26.02
2'nd time
1964 NGC MS65 Kennedy 50c, COLORS! cert#1775670-052 Dec-17-04 (ontime) $67.67
3'rd time
1964 NGC MS65 Kennedy 50c, COLORS! cert#1775670-052 Ends Dec-31-04 no bids
What do you bet if someone bids .99 cents, "ontime" will show up & bid!
Glenn
Al
<< <i>Dear fairtraderz,
Hi, ... Didn't this same coin just sell a few days ago on auction 3945925492 ? >>
Here's the answer to my question from fairtraderz:
<< <i>It did, the customer upgraded his order and we sold him a higher grade and we kept this one... >>
jom
<< <i>It did, the customer upgraded his order and we sold him a higher grade and we kept this one.. >>
*cough* *cough* Bullshirt!! *cough* *cough*
<< <i>I don't know about you guys but I think that coin is HIDEOUSLY ugly....it isn't worth 50 cents, IMO.
jom >>
If I win it, i'm sure Braddick will give me $21 for it.
What about the other coins he won?
Did he "upgrade" them too?
Glenn
<< <i>According to ontimes me page he's a dealer in clocks. >>
Yeah, and he just happens to be a dealer in clocks in metro Sacramento, where (un)Fairtraderz is located. The thing is, he leaves such a sloppy trail, there is no doubt as to the shilling. The frequency of the re-listings is really bold, and you would think the shills would not reveal their location in their listings.
I would like to know what fellow PNG members (who post here) think of this!!
Yeah right -- his "staff" decides to engage in illegal activity, yet the boss knows nothing about it? He doesn't know the same bidders have been bidding on -- and WINNING -- the same coin multiple times? Information that is readily discernable from just a few clicks on the internet, yet he knows nothing -- sorry, no. This is his business, selling and auctioning coins. He's responsible, period.
It occurred on his watch, and I don't care if he actually did it, directed someone else to do it, or passively watched as it occurred -- the entire organization is corrupt. Fish rot from the head.
I remember a few months ago when an employee of another respected dealer was posting here without the owners knowledge. When Rick found out he apologized and took care of the issues.
It is unfair of several of you to make blanket PUBLIC statements about a company or a companies owner without contacting them with your concerns.
<< <i>I have had years of good dealings with John, so my gut tells me this is some of his staff.
Yeah right -- his "staff" decides to engage in illegal activity, yet the boss knows nothing about it? He doesn't know the same bidders have been bidding on -- and WINNING -- the same coin multiple times? Information that is readily discernable from just a few clicks on the internet, yet he knows nothing -- sorry, no. This is his business, selling and auctioning coins. He's responsible, period.
It occurred on his watch, and I don't care if he actually did it, directed someone else to do it, or passively watched as it occurred -- the entire organization is corrupt. Fish rot from the head. >>
Big assumptions there... does Bill Gates know every little thing each of his employees is doing? I don't think so... it's easilly possible, that the Boss handed off the EBay division to 2 or 3 staff members, while he and other employees handle other areas... maybe he only deals with shows and storefront operations and doesn't check every little detail of his EBay business because he trusted his employees? When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me... but in this case, I think you'll find you're only making an ass out of yourself...
42/92
With a feedback rating that is incredible and a five star customer service, we guaranty your satisfaction.
I don't know about this. Let's get confirmation. Braddick, are you satisfied with getting screwed?
There's more to the story than that.
<< <i>I agree this is not a staff member doing this without knowledge.
There's more to the story than that. >>
But to make blanket accusations, without confirming your facts, is a bad thing to do... good way to damage someone's reputation, when they might be completely innocent...
42/92
I will be sure to mention this to John at the next MSNS show here in Michigan - he always attends. Since that won't be until spring, he has some time to get it fixed.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
Usually, you need two separate adresses physically as well. I think, JMHO, that whoever is running these e-bay auctions has a buddy that works somewhere across town and they are helping each other out by bidding on each others auctions.
For that matter, you could have a buddy across the country and could e-mail them to just bid on your stuff. That would be totally untraceable.
Bottom line: if the price don't fit, don't bid on it
My Auctions
if the price don't fit, don't bid on it
it is simply too tooo toooooo easy for shills to happen
My Auctions
It's a "big assumption" to presume -- not assume, as you incorrectly posit -- but presume the boss of a small coin company generally knows what is going on? I think not -- it's a perfectly valid supposition and the starting point for any discussion.
does Bill Gates know every little thing each of his employees is doing? I don't think so...
Please. This isn't a $293 billion multinational corporation with 57,000 employees. It's a coin dealer. Comparisons with the richest man in the world is off -- way off.
it's easilly possible, that the Boss handed off the EBay division to 2 or 3 staff members
The "Ebay division"? Please. Unless your Heritage, coin dealers don't have "divisions" akin to a major insurance underwriter or multinational. Really, this is laughable. They sell coins. That's their business. And Ebay is an outlet for the business. Ebay "division" -- what a lark.
But even if you conclude all these operations were farmed out, sorry -- he's still responsible. It's his business, and he's responsible for the conduct of his employees, as I previously said.
check every little detail of his EBay business because he trusted his employees?
"Every little detail"? Illegal activity hardly qualifies as a "little detail." Shilling auctions -- and in so blatant a manner -- is a biggie. You don't think he knows whose buying and selling? The boss doesn't review cash inflows and product outflows? If not, just what in god's name IS he doing?
And it's not like the boss needed to dig through ledger. As I said previously, just a couple clicks on the internet, and it's readily ascertainable what's going on. Just like your reference to Gates, your reference to "every little detail" belongs in an alternate universe.
When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me... but in this case, I think you'll find you're only making an ass out of yourself...
Sorry Gman, big disagreement with you here. And I felt it wholly unecessary for you to call me an "ass," as my previous statements are grounded in significant experience with the biggest corporations in the U.S. -- as well as simple logic. But since you've decided to throw down the gauntlet, I'll leave it to others to conclude who among us qualifies for your chosen moniker, especially given your apologist rhetoric for what cannot be disputed is a blatant fraud.
And keep your eyes out for where this goes.
I got an email offering the item at their reserve ( which was 50% more than I wanted to pay )
thanks, but no thanks
eBay is alot more lenient than most people realize with shill bidding =- especially when the commissions are paid ( they get commissions multiple times on the same items occassionally
it is rather easy to shill bid - just need 2 email addresses - a freebie like hotmail works good
leaving a feedback trail was rather foolish - also items go away after 30 days on past listings if no feedback left for each other
shill bidding has taken the edge out of the increase in cost for reserve auctions by some sellers
42/92
I agree with TBT to contact the owner first.
BTW, I've had a few interactions with this seller, and they have all been positive; ditto with comments I've heard from others that have dealt with him. Several months ago I saw an obvious error in one of his many ebay listings. I sent him a short, objective note pointing out the error, and it was quickly fixed.
edited to add: Hence my initial post to this thread, which said " I guess you call 1-800-804-9896, and find out