The "thing" that "scares" me is that MS67-70 seem to have very little meaning if it's all about the population reports and how many are in which bucket. That seems bogus as compared to when you read the ANA Photograde or PCGS grading guidelines.>>>>
those grading guides you refer to are like the constitution and open to interpetation...as far as scaring you .....you just need to understand the rules of the game as they are very logical.....if you think about it...so here i go steppin on toes again....and man i am going to be steppin on them
think about this....never compare apples to oranges when using logic...but in using logic you need to be consistent...in your statement above >>>>The "thing" that "scares" me is that MS67-70 seem to have very little meaning if it's all about the population reports and how many are in which bucket.>>>>thats fundament to value.....where as the best and highest graded coins are worth the most ...and which bucket they are in makes all the difference in the world.....to be frank...if you dont understand that principal i suggest going to the beach and collect sea shells as you will always have a fresh supply being made of ms70 seas shells
and here i go a steppin.....speaking of fresh sea shells....you need to break coins into basically 2 catagories ...to me its pre 1953 and post ....as you go north of 1953 the pops can and do get bigger and bigger....in fact the real size of the pop is mindboggeling...the modern coin population is classic demand driven which realy started when a few forces met such as the quarter program and 3rd party grading and the net ( where knowledge now travels faster than ever before ).....those ms and dcam 70 coins exist by the thousands...they are not in holders yet..but they are there none the less....and if you paid some stupid amount for a pop 1 70 coin i suggest you do not buy the others and cost average down as there will be hundreds more made....and to this day im lost as to why these cons bring what they do...and i might add so is the trade
now economically if there are 1000 70 graded coins of date x ...and there are 2000 people wanting them then the price can ( not will ) go up....but if there is 2000 wanting them and the pop grows to 10,000....your screwed ...end of story
on the other hand take a commem like a 38 boone which is a nifc coin...with a total mintage of 2000 coins it wont take a while bunch of demand to make the price go up...and with the preservation scale being pyramid shaped and the demand coming at the top when the 2 forces meet the price really goes up...couple that with some monster toning from natures paint brush where as all the collectors know that this or that coin is the best of the best...then when 2 buyers meet....the price sky rockets..zoooooom to the moon which is why a guy paid 20 times bid last year for a ngc 66 cleveland...and crossed it...no check that cracked it and put it inot a pcgs 68 holder and know wants 80 times 66 bid...heck he has been offered 65 times bid from the original underbidder
Basically, it seems that what you're implying is that high grades are being set by more subjective means than objective means and they're subjecting their grading standards against something that has NOTHING to do with the coin but the market itself. That's goofy and a bit scary! >>>>
no what im saying is...they are ranking coins.....let me say it again..they are ranking coins....and if there is only 1 top pop and you and i want it.....all we have to do is mimic that credit card commercial and say to each other is....whats in you wallet...its that simple
Personally, I don't play around in the high-grade/low pop arena; I don't have the stomach or the money for it. >>>>
i understand....but you can still play the game....i know of a counterman at a local coin shop who paid 100 for a ms65 washington carver about 8 years ago...it was his whole months savings...in fact he ate 2 months worth of peanut butter just to pay for it...he sent it in last year expecting to 66 the coin...but it 67 ed.....he sold it for around 18,000 ....now he eats steak..now granted thats extreme but there are tons of way too under valued coins out there...all you have to do is think about it..id tell ya but im hoardin them myself.....
monsterman
ps...monsterman`s rule # 11....a coins value is an equation
quality + rarity divided by demand
monsterman`s rule # 12.....a coins value can and indeed is enhanced by simply adding one ingrediant to rule # 11 where as
quality + rarity divided by demand x marketing
so tell me if you where to discover a treasure ship filled with 5,000 dabloons...dont ya think you better get marketing if you wanted to sell them...that being said....you will always buy one cheaper once the marketing stops
so tell me....i have a few coins that not only have a pop of 1 but they are the only ones..period...so why is a coin like a 1913 nickel worth more at over 1 million dollars ( with a pop of 500% more ) than my specimin grant star which btw was made by the minter john sinnock who was known to make a few...easy...marketing...the story has been told so much over the years about the 1913 nickel its value is established....and if you want the ego rush of owning it....and have most in awe....pony up a million
where as my specimin will only cost 100,000
its all preception......why else would a woman wear those god awefull pointed shoes if it wasnt for how they will be perceived
Thanks for helping vindicate my current collecting habits. And, I mean that in a good way. >>>
you sir are entirely welcome....i have to admit to all that read my posts.....which i do for basically 3 reasons
one is or could be contrued as selfish....i look at it as the smarter the market is...the stronger it is..i dont want to lose one collector because he got screwed or errored
the other is the " teacher" in me...of which i am not...but i wish i would of read someone elses words and logic so i would not of had to learn the hard way
the other is ego....i want to be remembered as the best commem man ever...i have a very commanding lead now where i do not think i can be caught so i can leave the closet of clandestinely slinking around...you see in commems the mintages are so low...all you have to do ( besides have the $$ ) is know all the players and go where the monsters go and have a great eye.....the rest is have time in the market....and im in...as long as im breathin
btw...they are registered at ngc...because they look so purdy in those white holders...and when you collect caviar..it doesnt matter what holder its in..
monsterman`s rule # 17....build it...and they will come
it..is the operative word here...it means....ga ga...drooling..not only outa this world but outa the universe.....so cool its mc hammer time..cant touch this
my goal is to have my own auction in my hometown...and if i built "IT" right..and i have...they will come
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>What I don't understand is that the CCDN has ICG index for sight-unseen coins on par with PCGS and NGC (roughly 85%) whereas ANACS lags. Perhaps the coins in the index are not a good sample of the overall market. >>
I think I finally understood this the other evening (duh!!!!) This takes into account all coins in an ANACS slab with a given number, i.e. how does sight-unseen ANACS coin xxx in grade AU50 trade vs. sight-unseen xxx PCGS50, NGC50, ICG50 etc. In some issues, half or more of the ANACS 50's will actually be net graded coins with AU or UNC details and some kinda problem. So it makes sense.
Personally, I've got a number of problem-free coins in ANACS holders that I think are accurate. I also own at least one case each of a (minor) problem coin in PCGS and NGC, with an 'implicit' net grade but no problems noted. I like ANACS' approach better.
ANACS without question. I have (and still do) owned multiple ANACS coins at one time or another and have always been happy with their grading and consitency. Everytime I have "traded up" with these coins I have had no problem getting fair value. I own ANACS, PCGS, and NGC coins only in my type set.
ICG seems too liberal in giving out PF 70's in the modern issues. I think I saw on an earlier thread that they graded a lot of MS 67 2005 buffalo nickels also. They may be more conservative in other areas.
Perhaps with Cam being there in the not too distant future, bringing his wealth of knowledge may mean that ICG could be reckoned with someday soon....I feel his presence there should be a boon to ICG...not to mention the beginning of a solid career for him....though at THIS time i DID vote ANACS, perhaps this poll will look differently in the future...
If interested, here’s a link to Monsterman’s very humble Wikipedia entry of only four paragraphs. The fourth mentions his coins. You may have heard of Monsterman’s commem set and his NFL Morgan set.
I preferred the old ICG holder, even the new one is better than the Anacs holder, in my opinion. Buy the coin not the holder, I refuse to be prejudiced based on holders except for the really bad ones.
@hutze1nm, the poster above gave a personal opinion. Just about every member on these forums has personal opinions. Most of us disagree with another member's personal opinion all the time.
If you check, very few members push the "disagree" button. Instead, they just refute the post they disagree with. This place would be more fun & informative if we all did push the disagree button all the time. Then we could see for example that plenty of members disagreed with a particularly ignorant post made in the 1909 1c thread.
The reason I (and many others?) don't "disagree" more often unless in a VERY STRONG way is because the member we disagree with loses a point toward receiving a promotion.
BTW, I agree with you and disagree with CoinCrazy.
@hutze1nm, the poster above gave a personal opinion. Just about every member on these forums has personal opinions. Most of us disagree with another member's personal opinion all the time.
If you check, very few members push the "disagree" button. Instead, they just refute the post they disagree with. This place would be more fun & informative if we all did push the disagree button all the time. Then we could see for example that plenty of members disagreed with a particularly ignorant post made in the 1909 1c thread.
The reason I (and many others?) don't "disagree" more often unless in a VERY STRONG way is because the member we disagree with loses a point toward receiving a promotion.
BTW, I agree with you and disagree with CoinCrazy.
There, I just disagreed, feel better now?
I prefer coins over holders... I have had good looking coins in both holders. They usually come at a discount as well, so icing on the cake.
Sorry to say, on one of my first and only ICG purchase ($10k + coin), I found out that ICG has either missed or consealed a rim soldering damage (jewl mount) and straight graded it 55, when even without the damage, it would not stand a chance above 45. Moreover, the ICG holder also nicely covered this damaged rim and made it almost impossible to see the damage sans a powerful microscope kind of device. Without the holder hiding the damage (before icg capsule), any half blind person will call the coin damaged...
I would not trust either for money grades over a few hundred dollars. Of course authentication is reliable with both. I have seen "MS63" old small holder Anacs coins that were no better than MS62 that would be worth many thousands of dollars if accurately graded. I have never heard of people having any luck with substantial grade guaranty submissions with either. They are supposed to pay for big mistakes or replace with a properly graded coin. Even P and N are very tight-lipped about proprietary information on grades holding their cards tight to their chests.
Wow. Some cool old members in this thread. Several have passed. I remember this thread and at that time I would have said ANACS. Today I would go with ICG.
ANACS has always provided "corredt" grading evaluations for me. They should be at the least considered a second opinion when you disagree with PCGS or NGC. I always think that they still grade to the original ANA grading standards. But all of my coins are PCGS for recoginition in the Registry.
@Numiven said:
Sorry to say, on one of my first and only ICG purchase ($10k + coin), I found out that ICG has either missed or consealed a rim soldering damage (jewl mount) and straight graded it 55, when even without the damage, it would not stand a chance above 45. Moreover, the ICG holder also nicely covered this damaged rim and made it almost impossible to see the damage sans a powerful microscope kind of device. Without the holder hiding the damage (before icg capsule), any half blind person will call the coin damaged...
So ICG gets no credibility IMO.
I'm sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, that kind of stuff happens more than you know. My first experience was cracking out a gold dollar in a MS-64 top TPGS slab. The coin was under graded by at least 2 points! It was virtually flawless...until I saw the large test cut on the edge/rim. Sooner or later that will probably happen to many of us who are foolish enough to think we know more than the professional graders. Note: there are a few members here who probably do...I call them the "sharks" of the coin bourse.
Let me propose a thoughtful test. I'll use a mythical grading service that I own ICGC (I Can Grade Coins). One of my best customers sends in a 1907 HR $20 WE that is a 100% flawless (no rub either) gem! Unfortunately, the "fin" on its reverse was filed off very nicely (but I caught it) at some time in the past. What should I do to be fair, to be moral, to set a price on the coin, to make everyone connected to the coin happy, etc? You'll never know as I'm going on vacation and I know my "boys" know the ropes.
The piece goes out straight graded. It becomes the treasure of a collector and everyone who sees it drools as it is one of the nicest ever made. As long as that coin stays in my slab, all is right with the world and all its owners down the line. And do you know what? My boys don't care and I'm still clueless as to its final grade. When I return to the office, they tell me it looked really great in the ICGC slab.
Then one day I read a post by a very unhappy collector who cracked it out of its holder. You see, for some reason the collector looked at that "Gem" HR - a coin he thought was OVER GRADED by ten points - and decided to crack it out. Go figure? I cannot. Once that mythical coin is cracked out, even a blind grader could see the edge/rim alteration! Unfortunately, the guarantee is now VOID!
PS In my limited experience, it is a VERY RARE occasion when something on a coin is "missed" at a major TPGS.
Just a suggestion: When I was new here, I thought it would be very funny to take the initials of ALL the TPGS's and post what they stand for. I started with a very common one...the one you guys used. CRASH and BURN. I got a big "ABUSE" and a warning to look closely at the rules.
Many of us often get away with murder around here stepping very close to the line. I actually think what you posted is very funny. In fact, I had a whole list prepared and ready for all the services in that thread I started. It would have been quite humorous as a many of the members here are very imaginative.
Anyway, I don't think that the I. Can't G. joke reflects the reality of the market place. From what I've seen at shows, they "rule" the lower right corner of our country along with PCGS and NGC.
Well here is evidence enough for me. I went back over all my ANACS purchases and submissions to our host for the last couple of years.
WS
4/26/15 1970S RPM 1 LD ANACS MS 64 RED - PCGS MS 65 RED
4/26/15 1985 D RPM 1 ANACS MS 65 R&B - PCGS MS 63 RED
6/14/15 1941 D RPM 7 ANACS AU 58 BRN - PCGS MS 63 R&B
6/15/15 1957 D RPM 3 ANACS MS 64 RED - PCGS MS 64 RED
9/15/15 2006 P DDO 4 ANACS MS 64 RED - PCGS MS 66 RED
10/8/15 1949 S DDO 1 ANACS MS 64 RED - PCGS MS 66 RED
12/1/16 1956 P DDR 4 ANACS PR 64 RED - PCGS PR 65 RED
1/24/16 1925 S RPM 3 ANACS AU 53 BRN - PCGS AU 55 BRN
2/1/16 1940 S RPM 7 ANACS MS 65 RED - PCGS MS 66 RED
2/19/16 1960 D RPM 1 ANACS MS 64 RED - PCGS MS 65 RED
3/13/16 1988 P RDV ANACS AU 58 BRN - PCGS MS 64 RED (not a PCGS typo)
11/18/161946 S INV ANACS MS 63 RED - PCGS MS 64 RED
1/26/17 1956 P DO2 ANACS PR 65 RED - PCGS PR 66 RED
2/2/17 1943 D RPM 4 ANACS MS 65 STL - PCGS MS 66 STL
7/30/17 1988 D RDV ANACS AU 58 BRN - PCGS AU 58 BRN
Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
@WaterSport said: "Well here is evidence enough for me. I went back over all my ANACS purchases and submissions to our host for the last couple of YEARS.
Thanks. That proves what everyone knows about the grading "standards." Plus you made a good move as your coins are worth much more graded by PCGS!
The ICG = "I can't grade" bs is one of the more defamatory slams I have heard about one of the four main services. You could come up with warped acronyms on the other main services. I say that realizing some of their defects and biases as well as those of the other services; name calling is wrong. Of course they can grade, have good eyes and tons of knowledge but they are offering a market based service and are tempted sometimes to go liberal and make mistakes. A tiny fraction of the two main services resources to do their job.
@logger7 said:
The ICG = "I can't grade" bs is one of the more defamatory slams I have heard about one of the four main services. You could come up with warped acronyms on the other main services. I say that realizing some of their defects and biases as well as those of the other services; name calling is wrong. Of course they can grade, have good eyes and tons of knowledge but they are offering a market based service and are tempted sometimes to go liberal and make mistakes. A tiny fraction of the two main services resources to do their job.
I have heard that line about "I can't grade" reference a few times and don't think it's fair. I could come up with the same for NGC = "no good coins", they wouldn't like that. ICG has contacted me on making them upset about something I said on the forums; and I heard the other day one of the grading services warned a dealer they would lose their submission privileges if they kept up the criticism of their holders. God knows I am one of the toughest judges on some things myself.
@amwldcoin said:
Yikes! Are you really so serious???
@logger7 said:
The ICG = "I can't grade" bs is one of the more defamatory slams I have heard about one of the four main services. You could come up with warped acronyms on the other main services. I say that realizing some of their defects and biases as well as those of the other services; name calling is wrong. Of course they can grade, have good eyes and tons of knowledge but they are offering a market based service and are tempted sometimes to go liberal and make mistakes. A tiny fraction of the two main services resources to do their job.
I've seen PLENTY OF JUNK in every major TPGS slab. I'm talking real crap! Not some little nuance of grading, not some personal preference, and not some "mechanical error." Certifiable, "They should not be in the business"" kind of crap! Rare and expensive crap too. Not some formerly graded XF that's now considered MS either. Those coins are "market acceptable." I'm talking about really obvious crap that somehow got into a slab by folks better at it than you or I.
That's why I go out of my way not to disparage any TPGS in particular. We can find examples of over grading, under grading, commercial grading, technical grading, and Pure Crap in any grading service slab. Occasionally, there is even a counterfeit.
There are great coins in ANACS, SEGS, PCI and ICG slabs if you look - then crack 'em. Those in the know, do. :0
@amwldcoin said:
Yikes! Are you really so serious???
@logger7 said:
The ICG = "I can't grade" bs is one of the more defamatory slams I have heard about one of the four main services. You could come up with warped acronyms on the other main services. I say that realizing some of their defects and biases as well as those of the other services; name calling is wrong. Of course they can grade, have good eyes and tons of knowledge but they are offering a market based service and are tempted sometimes to go liberal and make mistakes. A tiny fraction of the two main services resources to do their job.
I've seen PLENTY OF JUNK in every major TPGS slab. I'm talking real crap! Not some little nuance of grading, not some personal preference, and not some "mechanical error." Certifiable, "They should not be in the business"" kind of crap! Rare and expensive crap too. Not some formerly graded XF that's now considered MS either. Those coins are "market acceptable." I'm talking about really obvious crap that somehow got into a slab by folks better at it than you or I.
That's why I go out of my way not to disparage any TPGS in particular. We can find examples of over grading, under grading, commercial grading, technical grading, and Pure Crap in any grading service slab. Occasionally, there is even a counterfeit.
There are great coins in ANACS, SEGS, PCI and ICG slabs if you look - then crack 'em. Those in the know, do. :0
Comments
The "thing" that "scares" me is that MS67-70 seem to have very little meaning if it's all about the population reports and how many are in which bucket. That seems bogus as compared to when you read the ANA Photograde or PCGS grading guidelines.>>>>
those grading guides you refer to are like the constitution and open to interpetation...as far as scaring you .....you just need to understand the rules of the game as they are very logical.....if you think about it...so here i go steppin on toes again....and man i am going to be steppin on them
think about this....never compare apples to oranges when using logic...but in using logic you need to be consistent...in your statement above >>>>The "thing" that "scares" me is that MS67-70 seem to have very little meaning if it's all about the population reports and how many are in which bucket.>>>>thats fundament to value.....where as the best and highest graded coins are worth the most ...and which bucket they are in makes all the difference in the world.....to be frank...if you dont understand that principal i suggest going to the beach and collect sea shells as you will always have a fresh supply being made of ms70 seas shells
and here i go a steppin.....speaking of fresh sea shells....you need to break coins into basically 2 catagories ...to me its pre 1953 and post ....as you go north of 1953 the pops can and do get bigger and bigger....in fact the real size of the pop is mindboggeling...the modern coin population is classic demand driven which realy started when a few forces met such as the quarter program and 3rd party grading and the net ( where knowledge now travels faster than ever before ).....those ms and dcam 70 coins exist by the thousands...they are not in holders yet..but they are there none the less....and if you paid some stupid amount for a pop 1 70 coin i suggest you do not buy the others and cost average down as there will be hundreds more made....and to this day im lost as to why these cons bring what they do...and i might add so is the trade
now economically if there are 1000 70 graded coins of date x ...and there are 2000 people wanting them then the price can ( not will ) go up....but if there is 2000 wanting them and the pop grows to 10,000....your screwed ...end of story
on the other hand take a commem like a 38 boone which is a nifc coin...with a total mintage of 2000 coins it wont take a while bunch of demand to make the price go up...and with the preservation scale being pyramid shaped and the demand coming at the top when the 2 forces meet the price really goes up...couple that with some monster toning from natures paint brush where as all the collectors know that this or that coin is the best of the best...then when 2 buyers meet....the price sky rockets..zoooooom to the moon which is why a guy paid 20 times bid last year for a ngc 66 cleveland...and crossed it...no check that cracked it and put it inot a pcgs 68 holder and know wants 80 times 66 bid...heck he has been offered 65 times bid from the original underbidder
Basically, it seems that what you're implying is that high grades are being set by more subjective means than objective means and they're subjecting their grading standards against something that has NOTHING to do with the coin but the market itself. That's goofy and a bit scary! >>>>
no what im saying is...they are ranking coins.....let me say it again..they are ranking coins....and if there is only 1 top pop and you and i want it.....all we have to do is mimic that credit card commercial and say to each other is....whats in you wallet...its that simple
Personally, I don't play around in the high-grade/low pop arena; I don't have the stomach or the money for it. >>>>
i understand....but you can still play the game....i know of a counterman at a local coin shop who paid 100 for a ms65 washington carver about 8 years ago...it was his whole months savings...in fact he ate 2 months worth of peanut butter just to pay for it...he sent it in last year expecting to 66 the coin...but it 67 ed.....he sold it for around 18,000 ....now he eats steak..now granted thats extreme but there are tons of way too under valued coins out there...all you have to do is think about it..id tell ya but im hoardin them myself.....
monsterman
ps...monsterman`s rule # 11....a coins value is an equation
quality + rarity divided by demand
monsterman`s rule # 12.....a coins value can and indeed is enhanced by simply adding one ingrediant to rule # 11 where as
quality + rarity divided by demand x marketing
so tell me if you where to discover a treasure ship filled with 5,000 dabloons...dont ya think you better get marketing if you wanted to sell them...that being said....you will always buy one cheaper once the marketing stops
so tell me....i have a few coins that not only have a pop of 1 but they are the only ones..period...so why is a coin like a 1913 nickel worth more at over 1 million dollars ( with a pop of 500% more ) than my specimin grant star which btw was made by the minter john sinnock who was known to make a few...easy...marketing...the story has been told so much over the years about the 1913 nickel its value is established....and if you want the ego rush of owning it....and have most in awe....pony up a million
where as my specimin will only cost 100,000
its all preception......why else would a woman wear those god awefull pointed shoes if it wasnt for how they will be perceived
Thanks for helping vindicate my current collecting habits. And, I mean that in a good way. >>>
you sir are entirely welcome....i have to admit to all that read my posts.....which i do for basically 3 reasons
one is or could be contrued as selfish....i look at it as the smarter the market is...the stronger it is..i dont want to lose one collector because he got screwed or errored
the other is the " teacher" in me...of which i am not...but i wish i would of read someone elses words and logic so i would not of had to learn the hard way
the other is ego....i want to be remembered as the best commem man ever...i have a very commanding lead now where i do not think i can be caught so i can leave the closet of clandestinely slinking around...you see in commems the mintages are so low...all you have to do ( besides have the $$ ) is know all the players and go where the monsters go and have a great eye.....the rest is have time in the market....and im in...as long as im breathin
btw...they are registered at ngc...because they look so purdy in those white holders...and when you collect caviar..it doesnt matter what holder its in..
monsterman`s rule # 17....build it...and they will come
it..is the operative word here...it means....ga ga...drooling..not only outa this world but outa the universe.....so cool its mc hammer time..cant touch this
my goal is to have my own auction in my hometown...and if i built "IT" right..and i have...they will come
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
<< <i>I wonder if Cameron would still prefer ANACS over ICG as he posted earlier in this thread? >>
<< <i>What I don't understand is that the CCDN has ICG index for sight-unseen coins on par with PCGS and NGC (roughly 85%) whereas ANACS lags. Perhaps the coins in the index are not a good sample of the overall market. >>
I think I finally understood this the other evening (duh!!!!) This takes into account all coins in an ANACS slab with a given number, i.e. how does sight-unseen ANACS coin xxx in grade AU50 trade vs. sight-unseen xxx PCGS50, NGC50, ICG50 etc. In some issues, half or more of the ANACS 50's will actually be net graded coins with AU or UNC details and some kinda problem. So it makes sense.
Personally, I've got a number of problem-free coins in ANACS holders that I think are accurate. I also own at least one case each of a (minor) problem coin in PCGS and NGC, with an 'implicit' net grade but no problems noted. I like ANACS' approach better.
Box of 20
Interesting re-read. A look back at a discussion of the future. Check the date (and Monsterman’s comments).
Ps. Below is an earlier example of us not fully realizing what was happening;
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/3335193#Comment_3335193
( sorry it’s probably not in the right format)
ANACS
If interested, here’s a link to Monsterman’s very humble Wikipedia entry of only four paragraphs. The fourth mentions his coins. You may have heard of Monsterman’s commem set and his NFL Morgan set.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregg_Bingham
It sure would be entertaining to hear Gregg’s updated thoughts.
I prefer ANACS over ICG,
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
I use both for different reasons
ANACS-Varieties
ICG-Hobo nickels
INYNWHWeTrust-TexasNationals,ajaan,blu62vette
coinJP, Outhaul ,illini420,MICHAELDIXON, Fade to Black,epcjimi1,19Lyds,SNMAN,JerseyJoe, bigjpst, DMWJR , lordmarcovan, Weiss,Mfriday4962,UtahCoin,Downtown1974,pitboss,RichieURich,Bullsitter,JDsCoins,toyz4geo,jshaulis, mustanggt, SNMAN, MWallace, ms71, lordmarcovan
When I saw Russ in there, I knew this was a blast from the past!
ICG for liberty seated dollars, Randy knows the series very well.
ICG
If we are talking about submitting in 2017... ICG in a heartbeat!
I preferred the old ICG holder, even the new one is better than the Anacs holder, in my opinion. Buy the coin not the holder, I refuse to be prejudiced based on holders except for the really bad ones.
Depends...I like the ICG holder better than the current ANACS holder. On the other hand, I like the old small white holders of ANACS.
Dang it...another ancient thread resurrected.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
ICG - I sub to them 6-10 times a year usually and love the turn time and accuracy of grading on Morgan/Peace
Timeless commentary by Monsterman!
How'd I miss that the first time??
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
It will always be the coin... the particular service is secondary.....Cheers, RickO
@CoinCrazyPA said: "I prefer ANACS over ICG,"
@hutze1nm, the poster above gave a personal opinion. Just about every member on these forums has personal opinions. Most of us disagree with another member's personal opinion all the time.
If you check, very few members push the "disagree" button. Instead, they just refute the post they disagree with. This place would be more fun & informative if we all did push the disagree button all the time. Then we could see for example that plenty of members disagreed with a particularly ignorant post made in the 1909 1c thread.
The reason I (and many others?) don't "disagree" more often unless in a VERY STRONG way is because the member we disagree with loses a point toward receiving a promotion.
BTW, I agree with you and disagree with CoinCrazy.
There, I just disagreed, feel better now?
I prefer coins over holders... I have had good looking coins in both holders. They usually come at a discount as well, so icing on the cake.
Sorry to say, on one of my first and only ICG purchase ($10k + coin), I found out that ICG has either missed or consealed a rim soldering damage (jewl mount) and straight graded it 55, when even without the damage, it would not stand a chance above 45. Moreover, the ICG holder also nicely covered this damaged rim and made it almost impossible to see the damage sans a powerful microscope kind of device. Without the holder hiding the damage (before icg capsule), any half blind person will call the coin damaged...
So ICG gets no credibility IMO.
Nuff said:
I would not trust either for money grades over a few hundred dollars. Of course authentication is reliable with both. I have seen "MS63" old small holder Anacs coins that were no better than MS62 that would be worth many thousands of dollars if accurately graded. I have never heard of people having any luck with substantial grade guaranty submissions with either. They are supposed to pay for big mistakes or replace with a properly graded coin. Even P and N are very tight-lipped about proprietary information on grades holding their cards tight to their chests.
I would send that one in under their guarantee. Let us know if they make good on it.
ICG. More personal and receptive to comments.
Pete
Wow. Some cool old members in this thread. Several have passed. I remember this thread and at that time I would have said ANACS. Today I would go with ICG.
ANACS has always provided "corredt" grading evaluations for me. They should be at the least considered a second opinion when you disagree with PCGS or NGC. I always think that they still grade to the original ANA grading standards. But all of my coins are PCGS for recoginition in the Registry.
I like ICG and believe they grade very accurately.
The marketplace doesn't seem to respect ICG, however, but I don't believe they know why.
ICG ='s I can't grade!
I'm sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, that kind of stuff happens more than you know. My first experience was cracking out a gold dollar in a MS-64 top TPGS slab. The coin was under graded by at least 2 points! It was virtually flawless...until I saw the large test cut on the edge/rim. Sooner or later that will probably happen to many of us who are foolish enough to think we know more than the professional graders. Note: there are a few members here who probably do...I call them the "sharks" of the coin bourse.
Let me propose a thoughtful test. I'll use a mythical grading service that I own ICGC (I Can Grade Coins). One of my best customers sends in a 1907 HR $20 WE that is a 100% flawless (no rub either) gem! Unfortunately, the "fin" on its reverse was filed off very nicely (but I caught it) at some time in the past. What should I do to be fair, to be moral, to set a price on the coin, to make everyone connected to the coin happy, etc? You'll never know as I'm going on vacation and I know my "boys" know the ropes.
The piece goes out straight graded. It becomes the treasure of a collector and everyone who sees it drools as it is one of the nicest ever made. As long as that coin stays in my slab, all is right with the world and all its owners down the line. And do you know what? My boys don't care and I'm still clueless as to its final grade. When I return to the office, they tell me it looked really great in the ICGC slab.
Then one day I read a post by a very unhappy collector who cracked it out of its holder. You see, for some reason the collector looked at that "Gem" HR - a coin he thought was OVER GRADED by ten points - and decided to crack it out. Go figure? I cannot. Once that mythical coin is cracked out, even a blind grader could see the edge/rim alteration! Unfortunately, the guarantee is now VOID!
PS In my limited experience, it is a VERY RARE occasion when something on a coin is "missed" at a major TPGS.
Just a suggestion: When I was new here, I thought it would be very funny to take the initials of ALL the TPGS's and post what they stand for. I started with a very common one...the one you guys used. CRASH and BURN. I got a big "ABUSE" and a warning to look closely at the rules.
Many of us often get away with murder around here stepping very close to the line. I actually think what you posted is very funny. In fact, I had a whole list prepared and ready for all the services in that thread I started. It would have been quite humorous as a many of the members here are very imaginative.
Anyway, I don't think that the I. Can't G. joke reflects the reality of the market place. From what I've seen at shows, they "rule" the lower right corner of our country along with PCGS and NGC.
Well here is evidence enough for me. I went back over all my ANACS purchases and submissions to our host for the last couple of years.
WS
4/26/15 1970S RPM 1 LD ANACS MS 64 RED - PCGS MS 65 RED
4/26/15 1985 D RPM 1 ANACS MS 65 R&B - PCGS MS 63 RED
6/14/15 1941 D RPM 7 ANACS AU 58 BRN - PCGS MS 63 R&B
6/15/15 1957 D RPM 3 ANACS MS 64 RED - PCGS MS 64 RED
9/15/15 2006 P DDO 4 ANACS MS 64 RED - PCGS MS 66 RED
10/8/15 1949 S DDO 1 ANACS MS 64 RED - PCGS MS 66 RED
12/1/16 1956 P DDR 4 ANACS PR 64 RED - PCGS PR 65 RED
1/24/16 1925 S RPM 3 ANACS AU 53 BRN - PCGS AU 55 BRN
2/1/16 1940 S RPM 7 ANACS MS 65 RED - PCGS MS 66 RED
2/19/16 1960 D RPM 1 ANACS MS 64 RED - PCGS MS 65 RED
3/13/16 1988 P RDV ANACS AU 58 BRN - PCGS MS 64 RED (not a PCGS typo)
11/18/161946 S INV ANACS MS 63 RED - PCGS MS 64 RED
1/26/17 1956 P DO2 ANACS PR 65 RED - PCGS PR 66 RED
2/2/17 1943 D RPM 4 ANACS MS 65 STL - PCGS MS 66 STL
7/30/17 1988 D RDV ANACS AU 58 BRN - PCGS AU 58 BRN
ANACS for me
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
@WaterSport said: "Well here is evidence enough for me. I went back over all my ANACS purchases and submissions to our host for the last couple of YEARS.
Thanks. That proves what everyone knows about the grading "standards." Plus you made a good move as your coins are worth much more graded by PCGS!
The ICG = "I can't grade" bs is one of the more defamatory slams I have heard about one of the four main services. You could come up with warped acronyms on the other main services. I say that realizing some of their defects and biases as well as those of the other services; name calling is wrong. Of course they can grade, have good eyes and tons of knowledge but they are offering a market based service and are tempted sometimes to go liberal and make mistakes. A tiny fraction of the two main services resources to do their job.
Yikes! Are you really so serious???
I have heard that line about "I can't grade" reference a few times and don't think it's fair. I could come up with the same for NGC = "no good coins", they wouldn't like that. ICG has contacted me on making them upset about something I said on the forums; and I heard the other day one of the grading services warned a dealer they would lose their submission privileges if they kept up the criticism of their holders. God knows I am one of the toughest judges on some things myself.
Let me be honest @amwldcoin
I've seen PLENTY OF JUNK in every major TPGS slab. I'm talking real crap! Not some little nuance of grading, not some personal preference, and not some "mechanical error." Certifiable, "They should not be in the business"" kind of crap! Rare and expensive crap too. Not some formerly graded XF that's now considered MS either. Those coins are "market acceptable." I'm talking about really obvious crap that somehow got into a slab by folks better at it than you or I.
That's why I go out of my way not to disparage any TPGS in particular. We can find examples of over grading, under grading, commercial grading, technical grading, and Pure Crap in any grading service slab. Occasionally, there is even a counterfeit.
There are great coins in ANACS, SEGS, PCI and ICG slabs if you look - then crack 'em. Those in the know, do. :0
ANACS
Fan of the Oxford Comma
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2021 Young Numismatist of the Year
Well I will agree but there are more in some than others!!!!!
ANACS