They are mad they lost money and will continually spout that diamonds are a horrible investment. They are just like people who buy coins from those horribly overpriced coin TV programs, sell them at a huge loss and forever proclaim that coins are a horrible investment.
This sounds exactly like the arguments used against gold that we've been hearing for 5 years now. Gold is a bad investment because it was "higher" 27 years ago. Wonder if the Magna Carta at $21 MILLION will do as good for the current owner as it did for Ross Perot (paid $1.5M back in 1984).
<< <i>They are mad they lost money and will continually spout that diamonds are a horrible investment. They are just like people who buy coins from those horribly overpriced coin TV programs, sell them at a huge loss and forever proclaim that coins are a horrible investment.
This sounds exactly like the arguments used against gold that we've been hearing for 5 years now. Gold is a bad investment because it was "higher" 27 years ago. Wonder if the Magna Carta at $21 MILLION will do as good for the current owner as it did for Ross Perot (paid $1.5M back in 1984).
roadrunner >>
He did very well with that, but keep in mind he held it for 23 years. Very few have the patience. His annual rate of return was just over 12%. I dont know if it will continue to appreciate at that rate, but it is truely rare and they aint makin' any more.
Lots of bad news in financial land today, yet the stocks didnt react all that badly. Perhaps a tradable rally to ensue?
is it just me or is the news related to the dollar and gold absolutely fricking useless?
one day, dollar weakness good for gold. the next week, the dollar strengthens and gold futures down. then next week, the dollar down, gold up.
my god. do the financial news industry ever look farther down the road then the next day? it is not news... it is a fact that anyone with a brain can tell by looking at a kitco graph in 5 seconds!
it seems these internet "news" sites just want hits for advertising and one is wasting their time even visiting them.
anyone recommend their favorite news websites that discuss PMs, currencies, and etc.. that they visit occasionally? thanks.
<< <i>is it just me or is the news related to the dollar and gold absolutely fricking useless?
one day, dollar weakness good for gold. the next week, the dollar strengthens and gold futures down. then next week, the dollar down, gold up.
my god. do the financial news industry ever look farther down the road then the next day? it is not news... it is a fact that anyone with a brain can tell by looking at a kitco graph in 5 seconds!
it seems these internet "news" sites just want hits for advertising and one is wasting their time even visiting them.
anyone recommend their favorite news websites that discuss PMs, currencies, and etc.. that they visit occasionally? thanks. >>
you will always get facts and figures and stats to explain what happend and why according to whatever spin needed to portray what their agenda is and a SWAG as to what will happen tomorrow...short term chaos is always bumpy.
i think there is a lot of gasping and choking going on and it's spun as a clearing of the throat and brighter times ahead..not!
"anyone recommend their favorite news websites that discuss PMs, currencies, and etc.. that they visit occasionally? thanks."
In response, a quick read is to cruise through the Kitco forums. The gold discussion forum is my fav but there are some goof balls there too like the guy that uses astrology to devine the price of things. There are some pretty good posters there and even Mrearlygold walks through the halls every now and then.
"is it just me or is the news related to the dollar and gold absolutely fricking useless?"
It's not just you, the public news has become useless. The investment news is total BS, you can't get a straight comment out of anybody that has a responsible opinion. For example, Cramer jumping up and down raving about the fed...what a circus...and that's national network news??? Cramer Rant Not long ago, maybe 2 or 3 years, the news reporting was pretty much Dick Tracyish a "Just the facts ma'am" type presentation. The 4th estate was very well regarded...4th estate I want to say it was most apparent during the Katrina reporting that every news agency had an angle. That may have the final nail in the coffin of the old, factual news presentations by unbiased field reporting. One network would bash Bush and show the poor floodees holding signs about FEMA and Bush and the like while another network would show the National guard helicopters and the rescue boats getting people out of houses and the President giving the nation hope. The commentary has taken on a proponent/opponent type presentation as though they are trying to shape public opinion. Personal commentary on the part of the reporters is now acceptable where as before, those little after comments like "The shameful response to these urgent needs..." or, "...in a strongly Democratic Party dominated congress the opponents of this measure failed to organize the votes to pass this legislation in the face of a Bush White House threatened veto" were unacceptable and would get a reporter fired. Maybe it was Dan Rather getting busted for airing that unsubstantiated story about Bush and his military record that turned out to be total BS that was the mine canary dropping. Dan Rather Doesn't matter much now about why it happened, it's past tense, get over it. If you are watching network news for factual reporting, get your BS sifter out.
Maybe it was Rupert Murdoch's domination of the print media that gave the opinion pushers a vehicle to further their views or maybe it's just all devolved into BS and drivel and we should be reading blogs instead; at least that way we could filter out the bozos and get some insider unadultrated news. Maybe it is the domination of the news by the megamedia groups like CNN, Fox News, Network evening news that results in the poor viewer having to filter out the political bias from the actual events. At least now, if we are interested in a story, we can go to the net and get the real poop somewhere, depending on our patience and search skills.
In Houston, we have the three major networks delivering the "local" news. Here we are in the 4th largest city in the US with huge corporations, mega deals, monster development projects, huge international stuff, medical miracles being found in our huge medical complexes, stuff that's going on here every day and what do we get on the prime time "Local" news...mostly minorities caught stealing cars or some guy shot another guy over a disputed lover situation, or bystander digital cameras capturing the cops hauling some minority out of a car after a high speed chase followed by an activist yelling about police brutality. As an example, one of the biggest news stories here right now is some white guy killed a couple of dark skinned Columbian burglars and then the race advocates got involved and now every day we get the latest. So what, a couple of career criminals from Columbia are out of business, move on. It's not like we are running out of career criminals here. Our local prime time news is dominated by minorities committing FELONIES...now there's some big time news; like this doesn't happen every day here and the other side of the coin, who the hell cares? But every day and every nigh, we still watch and read like we were getting unbiased reporting of actual news so what can you do? So, if you're looking for any information in Houston about the activity of PM, pull up a cot, you'll be waiting for a while.
Thanks for the opportunity to do a little ranting myself. JMHO
is it just me or is the news related to the dollar and gold absolutely fricking useless?
one day, dollar weakness good for gold. the next week, the dollar strengthens and gold futures down. then next week, the dollar down, gold up.
Even Kitco is full of crap at times. I honestly feel there is some collusion on their part to get people to sell their gold to coincide with cartel traps. Even today while gold was moving up $13 their "chart" was frozen, showing yesterday's action! This usually seems to happen only on "up" days. One thing for sure, this is not just a pro-gold website by any means.
Watch the headlines on Kitco each day. Just as FC said, one day it's gold up because of weak dollar, next day it's gold down because of strong dollar. It's pure hype and meant to scare people....usually towards selling their gold. Watch mainstream financial news. Every action in interest rates (up or down), or in housing (up or down), or in derivatives (up or down), jobs report (up or down), is always displayed as gold negative. TPTB are doing everything in their power to paint anything financial as gold negative. Now most people think that movements in interest rates either way should drop the gold price. What a joke.
I suggest the websites on my sig line for some common sense analysis on gold. www.jsmineset.com imo covers the big picture the best. While Sinclair is a gold bull, he gives sound reasoning for where things are headed. None of this will work day to day since the FED wants to keep you out of gold. They will scare the market as often as they can afford to so that you delay your actions. An uncertain player is a FED friend to whipsaw around as they see fit.
<< <i> As an example, one of the biggest news stories here right now is some white guy killed a couple of dark skinned Columbian burglars and then the race advocates got involved and now every day we get the latest. So what, a couple of career criminals from Columbia are out of business, move on. It's not like we are running out of career criminals here..
>>
This is like a well kept secret on the national news. Did the police ever bring charges against the shooter, the last I heard a day after it happened they had not. O'Rielly had the 911 call on his program and you could actually hear the gun shots in the background where the guy was defending his neighbors property that he was left in charge of.
the FED wants to keep you out of gold. They will scare the market as often as they can afford to so that you delay your actions. An uncertain player is a FED friend to whipsaw around as they see fit.
They've made me mad, and when it comes to my financial health, I don't forget and forgive. I'm gradually (so as to reduce the stock market risk) taking my investments out of harm's way and putting them into PMS. Realizing that my IRA and my SEP are toast unless I forfeit 50%, I am leaving them alone for the time being. My Roth IRA is now in PMs. No more tying up retirement funds in vehicles that I can't control. I'll pay my taxes and then get off of their radar screen. They don't need me.
I don't know if the PMs will continue up or go down. I don't know if the stock market, bonds and the currency will all survive. I hope that they do. But I'm not betting in that direction. And it makes me mad. I'm tired of them taking money from me that I've earned and paid taxes on. And I vote not to let them keep doing it.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Wow, 5 days without any information. Gold took a nice ride to close at $826 today which technically broke overhead resistance at $823. The PPT was probably taking the day off as well.
An end of year message from Jim Willie....not for the faint hearted though. Here comes 2008.
Is it not interesting that GLD continues to buy up world gold supplies?
Yahoo News December 27, 2007
“As expected, Netherlands didn't last very long in the number eight position of the official world gold holdings as tabulated by the World Gold Council and as modified here to include the street TRACKS Gold Shares ETF (NYSE:GLD)
The combination of recent sales by the Dutch and the steady creation of GLD shares lately (another 10 tonnes in the trust as of the close of business today) made this one all too easy to call, as was done here just a couple weeks ago.
With the gold ETF (a.k.a. the common man's sovereign wealth fund) now 138 tonnes behind the amount of gold reserves held by the central bank in Japan, at first glance you might think it would be some time before GLD moves into the lucky number seven spot, however, it may not take very long at all.
Based on the current rate of growth, as shown in the chart below, it will be only about five more months before the last major Asian central bank with a pitiful percent of reserves held as gold bullion is surpassed by the gold ETF.
GLD is now the worlds 8th largest holder of Gold. You'd think that China and Japan would, at some point, want something more tangible than dollar-denominated treasuries, GSE debt, or stakes in U.S. financial companies in exchange for the U.S. dollars that accumulate after trading with us Americans - we probably would if we were the ones with mounds and mounds of yen and yuan piling up in our vaults."
How about that Goldman Sachs? They forecasted gold was headed down in the coming year. Their first action? Lower their short position by 1722 contracts on 12/27 (Tokyo Commodity Market) to their lowest total short position in several years (net 6364 contracts). Sounds like someone is serious about reducing their risk. Then again, they also were publically pro sub-prime as they heavily shorted that market behind the scenes.
Credit card industry will implode in 2008 legislation will be enacted to place usury limits on credit card interest.
Folks are now unable to pay more then minimum amounts each month. This means that they are in fact paying as much as 35% interest on top of 35% interest with no possibility of paying off the debt or cleansing the slate thru bankruptcy. Do you all remember when the bankruptcy laws were changed. The legislation was drafted by the banking industry to protect their credit card cash cow.
Home prices to decline thru the early part of 2009 but I do not believe it will be as severe as some folks think .
<< <i>How about that Goldman Sachs? They forecasted gold was headed down in the coming year. Their first action? Lower their short position by 1722 contracts on 12/27 (Tokyo Commodity Market) to their lowest total short position in several years (net 6364 contracts). Sounds like someone is serious about reducing their risk. Then again, they also were publically pro sub-prime as they heavily shorted that market behind the scenes.
Do as they do......not as they say.l
roadrunner >>
Goldman-Sachs did fantastic shorting the ABX subprime early on.
More oil traders are taking long term positions now so that would indicate a rise over $100 a barrel, soon.
Metals are in the mix to be doing well next year.
the tip of an ice-berg....this is bigger than we can see.
GLD is now the worlds 8th largest holder of Gold. You'd think that China and Japan would, at some point, want something more tangible than dollar-denominated treasuries, GSE debt, or stakes in U.S. financial companies in exchange for the U.S. dollars that accumulate after trading with us Americans - we probably would if we were the ones with mounds and mounds of yen and yuan piling up in our vaults."
GLD may very well be a conduit of the manipulators. Barclays is the trustee of this and they've made the same bonehead moves as all their big brethren. A favor here, a favor there for the financial giants. Do they really transfer every ounce that trades? When they buy from the market do they really make the seller deliver physical gold? I don't see this type of fund as true safety for the stock holders. It's a great "paper" trading account for the time being.
Do they really transfer every ounce that trades? When they buy from the market do they really make the seller deliver physical gold? I don't see this type of fund as true safety for the stock holders. It's a great "paper" trading account for the time being.
Where are the tonnes of physical gold supposedly stored? I guess I could look at the prospectus, and if nobody here knows, I will look it up and report back.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Was just reading an editorial from my newspaper that I cut out last week. It was written by an economist who was taking the counterpoint to the Lou Dobbs' of the world that the America Middle Class is shrinking and losing their standard of living. One thing that was quite clear was that the stats being used by the author seemed to be from outer space (i.e. real middle class medium income has risen 33% since 1979....or that median net worth has grown 35% since 1989). If you simply plug in the inflation rate into the BLS inflation calculator you will see than $1000 in 1989 is the same as $1695 today. Hence an automatic 69% "increase" in net worth based on a deflated dollar. And this assumes you buy the BLS numbers to start with.
One can also look at Hodges' "grandfather economic" report where he reports essentially stagnant median "real income" growth since 1970. He also mentions that it takes 2 breadwinners now to do what 1 did 30-40 years ago. Obviously someone's stats are juiced.
What really struck me were the author's quotes:
At the national level, overall employment has grown slowly but steadily. Blue collar manufacturing job losses were offset by the rise in what I call the "office economy" - jobs in administration, sales, finance and other business services that sprouted nationwide.
Just look at the ever proliferating suburbs, the high rate of home-ownership and the thriving market for new cars, HDTV's and video game consoles.
I think someone better tell this guy to step out of his office and see what's going on. If overall employment is on the rise it's from lower paying jobs being taken by immigrants/illegal aliens/or out of work professionals who have dropped down a notch or two. Those workers who give up seeking employment altogether help to raise the overall employment figures. Last I looked, new and used car sales were not doing very well. The auto makers are struggling. That "high rate" of homeownership is now coming back around in the way of foreclosures and sub-prime contagian. And all those new jobs in high finance, housing administration, construction and sales, auto sales, etc. are already being cut back. What's replacing them now as housing and finance wane?....maybe more fast food openings?
Economists work for the govt, univerities and corporations and sort of have to support the party line or risk losing grants and funding.
Mideast: Has there ever been peace in the Mideast in modern times (post WWII)? Doubtful but there is reason for optimism. Can't think of any real reason but it just seems that there is always an possibiltiy that things will work out, hence the optimism. If the POG is related to mideastern violence then why hasn't it been bouncing around every time someone lets off an RPG. The unrest there will probably affect the POOil significantly but POG...hummmmmmmmmm.
US Banking: There's the devil to pay now and he will be paid. Look for congress to deal with the collusion and usery ala penalties, fees, and interest by credit issuers as they look to the banking industry to act in a more responsible and less predatory manner. Irrational exhuberance or Geckomania by our banking institutions is not going to be tolerated by the masses but until the public gets someone to carry the ball to the rotunda it's just going to be a lot of yelling and name calling. At the same time, JQ Public has to be forced into or taught about financial responsibility and the lender's will have to do the teaching. This will be a early topic in '08. For those on the "Pay as you go" plan, life is good.
Real Estate: The last time this cyclical phenomenon occured at these levels, it was 1985ish, about 25 years ago or so. This "adjustment" to the PORealestate is a naturally occuring event and should not be touted as the end of the US Economy. It's not so much ado about nothing, it is something (ala Dave Letterman) but it's not the end of the world either. Sometimes speculators lean out over the line a little too much and then they get the folk with a little disposable income to buy into the deal and pretty soon, there's a bunch of money in the sector. When people get to leaning out too much, they get snapped back by the absolute reality of economic fundamentalism; namely, it's only worth what someone will pay for it, not what the banks will lend (banks can be wrong too). All are treated equal on the great stage of economic reality. There are some good opportunities in this sector and at all levels, keep your powder dry and your sights cleaned. Steady on, keep your eye on your money and keep diversified and save your butt off. If you are confused and don't know where to go, just buy an nice 65 saint and put it in the box and tell yourself, you did a good thing.
Stocks/Equities: There are plenty of good stocks at reasonable values that will perform well in '08. I like the idea of residential energy conservation efforts...solar panels, radient barriers, water conservation and things like that but when I actually write the check, I find that those things don't get my investment juices flowing like a nice, mature, productive software developer like BMC or the like. Things like oilfield service companies make my pen twitch like RDC or so. These are not recommendations but they do seem to be conservative in light of all the garbage and manipulated symbols you have to wade through. There are still good investments to be made here. Third world/emerging nations...yeah, sure but will you write the check? Equities is still a good place to park some buks. GLD seems to be riteous and a straight up play but why have the paper when you could have the PM? Just buy another saint and tell yourself you did a good thing.
Gold: For me, it is not for speculation though there are those that do it. Gold is a store of wealth, nothing more or less. When prices go up, gold goes up, it preserves the value of the wealth. Gold has been rising in a good and steady fashion (save a few spikes and valleys) and has seemingly risen in tandem with fiat currency production. Gold being somewhat fixed in terms of physical supply and buks constantly increase, what's so bad about this? When you have more people and more businesses, you need more money, as in physical Lincolns/Bens. The need to print money by the truck load is necessary otherwise there would just be a few buks to pass amongst ourselves as there are more people and a higher volume of business between those people. More money is good, it makes gold rise, it stores the relative value from the time of purchase until the time of redemption. I don't think that the conspiracy regarding fiat buks is such a big deal or it may be that it is such a big deal that my mind just doesn't wrap around it in a convincing way. As long as the gas station takes Jackson's and the grocery store takes Grants, it's all good as far as I can see. So they want a few more buks this time...well, that's what the gold is for. Just buy a nice saint and tell yourself you did a good thing.
The Great Battle: Soon, there will begin a pitched battle for entitlements. On one side of the arena are the social security receipients that will have their benefits. The ssan people know what they are due, they get a statement from social security every quarter so it's not a mystical number or anything. These people will be paid or they will remove the obstructors from the political decision making process. This is the third rail and he who touches it will be elecrocuted. On the other side of the arena are the disenfranchised, those that didn't make it or have some "special need". Those that need public charity to stay under a roof and have food. These people need help too, just like the medical emergency clinics helping anyone who walks through the door. That's why we need to treat illegal immigrants in public hospitals...you can't have people walking around the general population with tuberculosis or cholera or all the contageous diseases that we know about. We have to treat them, just like we can't have people delivering babies in closets or in the alley, it's just not the proper way to deal with these issues and we are worse off if we don't attend to this collective need. The group that will be marginalized in this process are those that have been using public assistance to live a solid middle class lifestyle. That's probably going to change soon, those people will be victims of middle class slippage, they are going to be marginalized while the immigrant class and those with severe issues will be supported even more by public money. The way the dole will be doled is under the microscope. It's the way things should be.
This Thread: A genuine treat. Great place to hear from diverse specialists and good thinkers. Even the stray screamer is fun to engage from time to time. There is so much experience in these posters to this thread and there are some very astute concepts and thoughts that make it to this little enclave. This is one place where folk can get pretty good information and pretty solid ideas. This thread has had many attacks by people that don't like it, don't think it has anything to do with coins, don't particularly agree with the core concepts, have exception to anything they didn't think of themselves, yet it survives...it's a hoot, keep going.
<< <i>Economists work for the govt, univerities and corporations and sort of have to support the party line or risk losing grants and funding.
roadrunner >>
And where did you get the idea that Universities listen to the govenment? Have you ever been at one that did? I used to work for a couple and they don't listen to anyone.
<< <i>Economists work for the govt, univerities and corporations and sort of have to support the party line or risk losing grants and funding.
roadrunner >>
And where did you get the idea that Universities listen to the govenment? Have you ever been at one that did? I used to work for a couple and they don't listen to anyone. >>
When it comes to funding they sure as Hell do.
If the Government wants a study to support this or that, they will get it at the threat of funding being pulled. The results have already been decided, now just give us a research study to support it. That's exactly how it works.
Many university liberal types think they are free to spout a different diatribe, but the wiser, older ones who know who butters their bread toe the line very effectively behind the scenes. It's gone on for so long now, that it's barely behind the scenes anymore.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
At the end of this calendar year, just wanted to say thanks to everyone for the informal education from this thread, as I believe it has been some of the best investment of my 'free' time in 2007.
Don
Do your best to avoid circular arguments, as it will help you reason better, because better reasoning is often a result of avoiding circular arguments.
Jan. 3 (Bloomberg) -- State Street Corp., the world's largest money manager for institutions, said the head of its investment unit resigned after the company set aside $279 million to cover legal costs from losses on subprime mortgages.
WOW, if that is the legal fund what are the losses going to look like?
He also mentions that it takes 2 breadwinners now to do what 1 did 30-40 years ago. Obviously someone's stats are juiced.
I hear this all the time. But there's no way you can compare the standard of living now to 40 years ago. My mom didn't work when I was growing up in the 60's and 70's, but we also didn't have 1/10 the number of toys and conveniences that are typical now. Women started entering the workforce in a big way in the 80's not because they had to, but because they wanted to. And I think to a large extent that created the purchasing power to make the current standard of living possible.
And where did you get the idea that Universities listen to the govenment? Have you ever been at one that did? I used to work for a couple and they don't listen to anyone.
Thanks Deadhorse.....saved me the trouble. Since when do University economic studies counter the BLS BS?
As far as standard of living, I honestly don't thank that a bigger house (all borrowed), a snappier car (all borrowed), and gadets and flat screens all about (mostly borrowed), is a higher standard of living. Imo we aren't really all that far removed from the 1960's. The wife "decides" to work so the family can maintain the standard of living she wants to maintain.
Some assume that silver hasn't kept up with gold so let's run the numbers.
The moves tend to even out over time. Here's the way it was Dec 2nd 2004 and as you can see both metals are about the same ratio as when GoldSaint posted the big link. I wouldn't be surprised if silver doubles over his 2004 post first............
Here's the first post on this link with the numbers used:
Thursday December 02, 2004 6:13 AM
Rather than having a thread where we make our Gold, Silver, and economic predictions perhaps we can start a thread where we post related world announcements, price moves, and make comments on these moves as well as the predictions of others. Gold is at $455 today and Silver is back to $8.
Here's the ratio as I figure it:
The numbers: 867/ 455 for gold 15.30/ 8 for silver
so
lets say that silvers 15.30 isn't known and see what the adjusted price should be with this formula
867/455 times 8 = X
X= $15.24
Actual price is now $15.30 so it's done a little better than gold on the day GoldSaint made his post.
While we are at it, I would like to retract a statement made by me that the POG was not tied to mideast conflict but in further reflection I believe that statement is hogwash. The POG is linked, and fairly well, to the POOil and by virtue of having that relationship, the POG is tied to the mideast conflicts (POOil) so my apologies for failed logic.
As far as standard of living, I honestly don't thank that a bigger house (all borrowed), a snappier car (all borrowed), and gadets and flat screens all about (mostly borrowed), is a higher standard of living.
I agree. I'm just saying that a walk around the house and garage today makes the 60's look like the Stone Age. And it's taken a second income (and as you point out, often a lot of debt) to finance that lifestyle. But it's a choice. A lot of people cry that it takes two incomes today to "get by", and it used to only take one. And they are usually "getting by" with all the stuff you mention.
And it's taken a second income (and as you point out, often a lot of debt) to finance that lifestyle. But it's a choice.
True, but it's a choice for us that is basically forced upon us.
most mid to upper middleclass families deem it a necessaty to have a couple of cell phones, 3 to 5 color tv's, at least 2 cars (and the list goes on). We (the middleclass) live like the rich folk did 50 years ago.
Ex. more than 50 years ago, only the wealthy played golf or tennis. Nowadays, everyone does. Ex 2. when TV's came out into the marketplace, only the wealthy first could afford them. Now, every new discovery or 'gadget' that is made is geared towards the middleclass.
Do I personally want or need these items? Not in every case!! But like my good neighbor, I give in and acquire these items for myself and my family.
You are looked upon as 'strange' if you live in one of these neighborhoods and do not succomb to this. Such as the family that goes without cable TV.
We have definitely lost our focus in our lifestyles. This is plainly evident. But we have little choice.
It does require two incomes to pay for all these 'gadgets'.
Our standard of living is higher, but I might argue, for some, our 'quality' of life is not.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
Off topic - Where do you get the standards for class? Low, Middle, Upper, etc? I had a conversation about that the other day and thought that most of my family and my wifes were probably lower middle class, but I'd like to find out.
<< <i>And it's taken a second income (and as you point out, often a lot of debt) to finance that lifestyle. But it's a choice.
True, but it's a choice for us that is basically forced upon us.
most mid to upper middleclass families deem it a necessaty to have a couple of cell phones, 3 to 5 color tv's, at least 2 cars (and the list goes on). We (the middleclass) live like the rich folk did 50 years ago.
Ex. more than 50 years ago, only the wealthy played golf or tennis. Nowadays, everyone does. Ex 2. when TV's came out into the marketplace, only the wealthy first could afford them. Now, every new discovery or 'gadget' that is made is geared towards the middleclass.
Do I personally want or need these items? Not in every case!! But like my good neighbor, I give in and acquire these items for myself and my family.
You are looked upon as 'strange' if you live in one of these neighborhoods and do not succomb to this. Such as the family that goes without cable TV.
We have definitely lost our focus in our lifestyles. This is plainly evident. But we have little choice.
It does require two incomes to pay for all these 'gadgets'.
Our standard of living is higher, but I might argue, for some, our 'quality' of life is not. >>
i think we DO have choices and have made poor ones because of the proaganda on TV and magazines about how we should look, buy and live. The advertisers have made us feel inferior.
i do agree that our quality of life is not what it could be and more "stuff' certainly is not the answer.
You live in Canada, right? why are do people seem more friendly up there? Even hockey fans who travel to San Jose are rowdy and loud as all get out yet polite and respectful (in my expereince).
Jim Sinclair divides Gold’s characteristics into four arguing that:
“…gold migrates from a commodity form, to a barometer, to a currency, to an international assets balance sheet form.”
He goes on to explain, “Conflict between governments and Gold’s role as the ultimate form of money puts Gold into a situation of permanent competition with fiat currencies created out of thin air by governments and, consequently, with the governments themselves”.
Gold is able to perform the role of the ultimate money due to the following:
> It has a high intrinsic value per unit of volume. > It is homogeneous, divisible and durable. > It is traded in a continuous market on a global basis. > It cannot be debased; production averages approximately 2% per annum at most, in contrast to the unchecked creation of fiat currency by central banks. > It is the only financial medium of exchange that is not a third-party’s liability. > It is accumulated rather than consumed.
Gold is now somewhere between the barometer to currency form. Hint....it's not a commodity any more. We aren't even close to the end game (international balance sheet form).
One thing missing from the standard of living is non-essential plastic surgery in every household.
i think we DO have choices and have made poor ones because of the proaganda on TV and magazines about how we should look, buy and live
I agree with you. I was trying to say the same thing you just said. Unfortunately, we tend to follow the 'herd' and this may be the problem.
You live in Canada, right? why are do people seem more friendly up there? Even hockey fans who travel to San Jose are rowdy and loud as all get out yet polite and respectful (in my expereince).
Yes, I'm a Canadian and we do take a lot of pride for our 'friendliness' (sometimes a ribbing as well).
I don't know how or why it started, but I do know internationally, this is one of our recognized traits.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
AU58 Saints are probably around the $950 point now wholesale, with retail higher. We're almost at that point of "getting carried away." Even jewelry grade junk $20's are $900 now. Yikes.
Interestingly, the gap between 64 and 65 $20 Saints continues to shrink at every gold advance since August. Now at a record low 18% spread....a far cry from the 40% level of May 2006.
just looking for your take on entitlements in the near future.
Taxing the rich and rescuing the poor wins elections. Any "entitlement" program that plays in this ballpark will grow and spend money faster than the real rate of inflation. I'll note the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP), where they provide government funding to people who aren't children. That and other types of programs will grow exponentially. So will programs like the college loan fiasco where you only payback loans based upon a small percentage (say, 15%) of your actual income. It's a fantastic boon to stay-at-home moms and self-employed people who fail to 1099 their incomes. All wrapped up in the guise of "advancing" the education of society.
<< <i>Off topic - Where do you get the standards for class? Low, Middle, Upper, etc? I had a conversation about that the other day and thought that most of my family and my wifes were probably lower middle class, but I'd like to find out. >>
Anyone who can spend less than he earns is very wealthy.
I think we are now past the doom and gloom stage as we can tell by posts from RR and others. It seems like a very good time to be super careful. This story and link to your bank was posted today on Jim Sinclairs site, and I for one will use it TODAY!
“Dear Jim, Since reading your comments about protecting my money, I decided to check out my bank. What I found was that they are in the top 25 banks and obviously have large derivatives exposure. I then started checking out some local banks and found one here in town that has one branch. I went to this bank and started asking questions about derivatives exposure. The president of the bank could not answer my questions and so she got the CFO to come down to talk to me. (How many banks can you walk into and talk to the president and CFO?).
He brought me a copy of their UBPR (Uniform Bank Performance Report) and on page 5A, it shows the total derivatives that they have on their books. This bank had none on their books, so I have moved all of my business and personal accounts there. You can check this information on any bank by going to:
Just enter the bank's name and city and it will give you the UBPR. I did check my new bank and they haven't had any derivatives for as far back as the records go. Since I need cash for my business and to pay my personal bills, this seemed the safest place to put it. “
U.S. jobless rate jumps to 5% as payrolls grow 18,000
By Rex Nutting Last update: 8:30 a.m. EST Jan. 4, 2008Print RSS Disable Live Quotes
WASHINGTON (Market Watch) - The unemployment rate shot up to 5% in December as job growth stalled, a sign that the U.S. economic slump has spread to the labor market. U.S. seasonally adjusted nonfarm payrolls rose by 18,000 in December, the weakest job growth since August 2003, according to a survey of thousands of businesses. Job growth was revised up by a total of 10,000 in November and October. Economists were expecting payrolls to increase about 58,000 in December. Private-sector payrolls fell by 13,000, the biggest decline in more than four years. A separate survey of households showed employment plunging by 436,000, marking the biggest decline in five years. The number of unemployed adults rose by 474,000, pushing the unemployment rate up to 5.0% from 4.7%.
Doesn't look good....I tried to post a link but of course the filter doesn't like Market Watch when it's put together in a link.
Comments
This sounds exactly like the arguments used against gold that we've been hearing for 5 years now. Gold is a bad investment because it was "higher" 27 years ago. Wonder if the Magna Carta at $21 MILLION will do as good for the current owner as it did for Ross Perot (paid $1.5M back in 1984).
roadrunner
<< <i>They are mad they lost money and will continually spout that diamonds are a horrible investment. They are just like people who buy coins from those horribly overpriced coin TV programs, sell them at a huge loss and forever proclaim that coins are a horrible investment.
This sounds exactly like the arguments used against gold that we've been hearing for 5 years now. Gold is a bad investment because it was "higher" 27 years ago. Wonder if the Magna Carta at $21 MILLION will do as good for the current owner as it did for Ross Perot (paid $1.5M back in 1984).
roadrunner >>
He did very well with that, but keep in mind he held it for 23 years. Very few have the patience. His annual rate of return was just over 12%. I dont know if it will continue to appreciate at that rate, but it is truely rare and they aint makin' any more.
Lots of bad news in financial land today, yet the stocks didnt react all that badly. Perhaps a tradable rally to ensue?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Even with the doctored statistics, wholesale prices jumped 31/2% in
a month. Now we have inflation versus financial lockjaw. The Fed is
expected to lower rates at the same time it should be raising interest rates.
Thats like placing a snow ball in the oven to harden it. Knowing most politicians,
they will opt for inflation over deflation before an election year.
Camelot
fricking useless?
one day, dollar weakness good for gold.
the next week, the dollar strengthens and gold futures down.
then next week, the dollar down, gold up.
my god. do the financial news industry ever look farther down the
road then the next day? it is not news... it is a fact that anyone with
a brain can tell by looking at a kitco graph in 5 seconds!
it seems these internet "news" sites just want hits for advertising
and one is wasting their time even visiting them.
anyone recommend their favorite news websites that discuss PMs,
currencies, and etc.. that they visit occasionally? thanks.
<< <i>is it just me or is the news related to the dollar and gold absolutely
fricking useless?
one day, dollar weakness good for gold.
the next week, the dollar strengthens and gold futures down.
then next week, the dollar down, gold up.
my god. do the financial news industry ever look farther down the
road then the next day? it is not news... it is a fact that anyone with
a brain can tell by looking at a kitco graph in 5 seconds!
it seems these internet "news" sites just want hits for advertising
and one is wasting their time even visiting them.
anyone recommend their favorite news websites that discuss PMs,
currencies, and etc.. that they visit occasionally? thanks. >>
you will always get facts and figures and stats to explain what happend and why according to whatever spin needed to portray what their agenda is and a SWAG as to what will happen tomorrow...short term chaos is always bumpy.
i think there is a lot of gasping and choking going on and it's spun as a clearing of the throat and brighter times ahead..not!
currencies, and etc.. that they visit occasionally? thanks."
In response, a quick read is to cruise through the Kitco forums. The gold discussion forum is my fav but there are some goof balls there too like the guy that uses astrology to devine the price of things. There are some pretty good posters there and even Mrearlygold walks through the halls every now and then.
fricking useless?"
It's not just you, the public news has become useless. The investment news is total BS, you can't get a straight comment out of anybody that has a responsible opinion. For example, Cramer jumping up and down raving about the fed...what a circus...and that's national network news??? Cramer Rant Not long ago, maybe 2 or 3 years, the news reporting was pretty much Dick Tracyish a "Just the facts ma'am" type presentation. The 4th estate was very well regarded...4th estate I want to say it was most apparent during the Katrina reporting that every news agency had an angle. That may have the final nail in the coffin of the old, factual news presentations by unbiased field reporting. One network would bash Bush and show the poor floodees holding signs about FEMA and Bush and the like while another network would show the National guard helicopters and the rescue boats getting people out of houses and the President giving the nation hope. The commentary has taken on a proponent/opponent type presentation as though they are trying to shape public opinion. Personal commentary on the part of the reporters is now acceptable where as before, those little after comments like "The shameful response to these urgent needs..." or, "...in a strongly Democratic Party dominated congress the opponents of this measure failed to organize the votes to pass this legislation in the face of a Bush White House threatened veto" were unacceptable and would get a reporter fired. Maybe it was Dan Rather getting busted for airing that unsubstantiated story about Bush and his military record that turned out to be total BS that was the mine canary dropping. Dan Rather Doesn't matter much now about why it happened, it's past tense, get over it. If you are watching network news for factual reporting, get your BS sifter out.
Maybe it was Rupert Murdoch's domination of the print media that gave the opinion pushers a vehicle to further their views or maybe it's just all devolved into BS and drivel and we should be reading blogs instead; at least that way we could filter out the bozos and get some insider unadultrated news. Maybe it is the domination of the news by the megamedia groups like CNN, Fox News, Network evening news that results in the poor viewer having to filter out the political bias from the actual events. At least now, if we are interested in a story, we can go to the net and get the real poop somewhere, depending on our patience and search skills.
In Houston, we have the three major networks delivering the "local" news. Here we are in the 4th largest city in the US with huge corporations, mega deals, monster development projects, huge international stuff, medical miracles being found in our huge medical complexes, stuff that's going on here every day and what do we get on the prime time "Local" news...mostly minorities caught stealing cars or some guy shot another guy over a disputed lover situation, or bystander digital cameras capturing the cops hauling some minority out of a car after a high speed chase followed by an activist yelling about police brutality. As an example, one of the biggest news stories here right now is some white guy killed a couple of dark skinned Columbian burglars and then the race advocates got involved and now every day we get the latest. So what, a couple of career criminals from Columbia are out of business, move on. It's not like we are running out of career criminals here. Our local prime time news is dominated by minorities committing FELONIES...now there's some big time news; like this doesn't happen every day here and the other side of the coin, who the hell cares? But every day and every nigh, we still watch and read like we were getting unbiased reporting of actual news so what can you do? So, if you're looking for any information in Houston about the activity of PM, pull up a cot, you'll be waiting for a while.
Thanks for the opportunity to do a little ranting myself. JMHO
fricking useless?
one day, dollar weakness good for gold.
the next week, the dollar strengthens and gold futures down.
then next week, the dollar down, gold up.
Even Kitco is full of crap at times. I honestly feel there is some collusion on their part to get people to sell their gold to coincide with
cartel traps. Even today while gold was moving up $13 their "chart" was frozen, showing yesterday's action! This usually seems to happen
only on "up" days. One thing for sure, this is not just a pro-gold website by any means.
Watch the headlines on Kitco each day. Just as FC said, one day it's gold up because of weak dollar, next day it's gold down because of
strong dollar. It's pure hype and meant to scare people....usually towards selling their gold. Watch mainstream financial news. Every
action in interest rates (up or down), or in housing (up or down), or in derivatives (up or down), jobs report (up or down), is always displayed as gold negative. TPTB are doing everything in their power to paint anything financial as gold negative. Now most people think that movements in interest rates either way should drop the gold price. What a joke.
I suggest the websites on my sig line for some common sense analysis on gold. www.jsmineset.com imo covers the big picture the best.
While Sinclair is a gold bull, he gives sound reasoning for where things are headed. None of this will work day to day since the FED wants
to keep you out of gold. They will scare the market as often as they can afford to so that you delay your actions. An uncertain player is a FED friend to whipsaw around as they see fit.
roadrunner
<< <i>
As an example, one of the biggest news stories here right now is some white guy killed a couple of dark skinned Columbian burglars and then the race advocates got involved and now every day we get the latest. So what, a couple of career criminals from Columbia are out of business, move on. It's not like we are running out of career criminals here..
>>
This is like a well kept secret on the national news. Did the police ever bring charges against the shooter, the last I heard a day after it happened they had not. O'Rielly had the 911 call on his program and you could actually hear the gun shots in the background where the guy was defending his neighbors property that he was left in charge of.
I apologize for being off topic other readers.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
They've made me mad, and when it comes to my financial health, I don't forget and forgive. I'm gradually (so as to reduce the stock market risk) taking my investments out of harm's way and putting them into PMS. Realizing that my IRA and my SEP are toast unless I forfeit 50%, I am leaving them alone for the time being. My Roth IRA is now in PMs. No more tying up retirement funds in vehicles that I can't control. I'll pay my taxes and then get off of their radar screen. They don't need me.
I don't know if the PMs will continue up or go down. I don't know if the stock market, bonds and the currency will all survive. I hope that they do. But I'm not betting in that direction. And it makes me mad. I'm tired of them taking money from me that I've earned and paid taxes on. And I vote not to let them keep doing it.
I knew it would happen.
The PPT was probably taking the day off as well.
An end of year message from Jim Willie....not for the faint hearted though. Here comes 2008.
Jim Willie rides again.
roadrunner
Is it not interesting that GLD continues to buy up world gold supplies?
Yahoo News December 27, 2007
“As expected, Netherlands didn't last very long in the number eight position of the official world gold holdings as tabulated by the World Gold Council and as modified here to include the street TRACKS Gold Shares ETF (NYSE:GLD)
The combination of recent sales by the Dutch and the steady creation of GLD shares lately (another 10 tonnes in the trust as of the close of business today) made this one all too easy to call, as was done here just a couple weeks ago.
With the gold ETF (a.k.a. the common man's sovereign wealth fund) now 138 tonnes behind the amount of gold reserves held by the central bank in Japan, at first glance you might think it would be some time before GLD moves into the lucky number seven spot, however, it may not take very long at all.
Based on the current rate of growth, as shown in the chart below, it will be only about five more months before the last major Asian central bank with a pitiful percent of reserves held as gold bullion is surpassed by the gold ETF.
GLD is now the worlds 8th largest holder of Gold. You'd think that China and Japan would, at some point, want something more tangible than dollar-denominated treasuries, GSE debt, or stakes in U.S. financial companies in exchange for the U.S. dollars that accumulate after trading with us Americans - we probably would if we were the ones with mounds and mounds of yen and yuan piling up in our vaults."
Do as they do......not as they say.l
roadrunner
Gold to continue higher thru 2008
Credit card industry will implode in 2008
legislation will be enacted to place usury limits
on credit card interest.
Folks are now unable to pay more then minimum amounts
each month. This means that they are in fact paying as much
as 35% interest on top of 35% interest with no possibility of
paying off the debt or cleansing the slate thru bankruptcy. Do
you all remember when the bankruptcy laws were changed. The
legislation was drafted by the banking industry to protect their
credit card cash cow.
Home prices to decline thru the early part of 2009
but I do not believe it will be as severe as some folks
think .
Camelot
roadrunner
<< <i>How about that Goldman Sachs? They forecasted gold was headed down in the coming year. Their first action? Lower their short position by 1722 contracts on 12/27 (Tokyo Commodity Market) to their lowest total short position in several years (net 6364 contracts). Sounds like someone is serious about reducing their risk. Then again, they also were publically pro sub-prime as they heavily shorted that market behind the scenes.
Do as they do......not as they say.l
roadrunner >>
Goldman-Sachs did fantastic shorting the ABX subprime early on.
More oil traders are taking long term positions now so that would indicate a rise over $100 a barrel, soon.
Metals are in the mix to be doing well next year.
the tip of an ice-berg....this is bigger than we can see.
GLD may very well be a conduit of the manipulators. Barclays is the trustee of this and they've made the same bonehead moves as all their big brethren. A favor here, a favor there for the financial giants. Do they really transfer every ounce that trades? When they buy from the market do they really make the seller deliver physical gold? I don't see this type of fund as true safety for the stock holders. It's a great "paper" trading account for the time being.
roadrunner
Where are the tonnes of physical gold supposedly stored? I guess I could look at the prospectus, and if nobody here knows, I will look it up and report back.
I knew it would happen.
I agree with you 100%.
Control and be responsible for your own assets yourself and hold PHYSICAL gold/silver, not this 'paper cr*p'.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
One can also look at Hodges' "grandfather economic" report where he reports essentially stagnant median "real income" growth since 1970. He also mentions that it takes 2 breadwinners now to do what 1 did 30-40 years ago. Obviously someone's stats are juiced.
What really struck me were the author's quotes:
At the national level, overall employment has grown slowly but steadily. Blue collar manufacturing job losses were offset by the rise in what I call the "office economy" - jobs in administration, sales, finance and other business services that sprouted nationwide.
Just look at the ever proliferating suburbs, the high rate of home-ownership and the thriving market for new cars, HDTV's and video game consoles.
I think someone better tell this guy to step out of his office and see what's going on. If overall employment is on the rise it's from lower paying jobs being taken by immigrants/illegal aliens/or out of work professionals who have dropped down a notch or two. Those workers who give up seeking employment altogether help to raise the overall employment figures. Last I looked, new and used car sales were not doing very well. The auto makers are struggling. That "high rate" of homeownership is now coming back around in the way of foreclosures and sub-prime contagian. And all those new jobs in high finance, housing administration, construction and sales, auto sales, etc. are already being cut back. What's replacing them now as housing and finance wane?....maybe more fast food openings?
Economists work for the govt, univerities and corporations and sort of have to support the party line or risk losing grants and funding.
roadrunner
Things in the mix...
Mideast: Has there ever been peace in the Mideast in modern times (post WWII)? Doubtful but there is reason for optimism. Can't think of any real reason but it just seems that there is always an possibiltiy that things will work out, hence the optimism. If the POG is related to mideastern violence then why hasn't it been bouncing around every time someone lets off an RPG. The unrest there will probably affect the POOil significantly but POG...hummmmmmmmmm.
US Banking: There's the devil to pay now and he will be paid. Look for congress to deal with the collusion and usery ala penalties, fees, and interest by credit issuers as they look to the banking industry to act in a more responsible and less predatory manner. Irrational exhuberance or Geckomania by our banking institutions is not going to be tolerated by the masses but until the public gets someone to carry the ball to the rotunda it's just going to be a lot of yelling and name calling. At the same time, JQ Public has to be forced into or taught about financial responsibility and the lender's will have to do the teaching. This will be a early topic in '08. For those on the "Pay as you go" plan, life is good.
Real Estate: The last time this cyclical phenomenon occured at these levels, it was 1985ish, about 25 years ago or so. This "adjustment" to the PORealestate is a naturally occuring event and should not be touted as the end of the US Economy. It's not so much ado about nothing, it is something (ala Dave Letterman) but it's not the end of the world either. Sometimes speculators lean out over the line a little too much and then they get the folk with a little disposable income to buy into the deal and pretty soon, there's a bunch of money in the sector. When people get to leaning out too much, they get snapped back by the absolute reality of economic fundamentalism; namely, it's only worth what someone will pay for it, not what the banks will lend (banks can be wrong too). All are treated equal on the great stage of economic reality. There are some good opportunities in this sector and at all levels, keep your powder dry and your sights cleaned. Steady on, keep your eye on your money and keep diversified and save your butt off. If you are confused and don't know where to go, just buy an nice 65 saint and put it in the box and tell yourself, you did a good thing.
Stocks/Equities: There are plenty of good stocks at reasonable values that will perform well in '08. I like the idea of residential energy conservation efforts...solar panels, radient barriers, water conservation and things like that but when I actually write the check, I find that those things don't get my investment juices flowing like a nice, mature, productive software developer like BMC or the like. Things like oilfield service companies make my pen twitch like RDC or so. These are not recommendations but they do seem to be conservative in light of all the garbage and manipulated symbols you have to wade through. There are still good investments to be made here. Third world/emerging nations...yeah, sure but will you write the check? Equities is still a good place to park some buks. GLD seems to be riteous and a straight up play but why have the paper when you could have the PM? Just buy another saint and tell yourself you did a good thing.
Gold: For me, it is not for speculation though there are those that do it. Gold is a store of wealth, nothing more or less. When prices go up, gold goes up, it preserves the value of the wealth. Gold has been rising in a good and steady fashion (save a few spikes and valleys) and has seemingly risen in tandem with fiat currency production. Gold being somewhat fixed in terms of physical supply and buks constantly increase, what's so bad about this? When you have more people and more businesses, you need more money, as in physical Lincolns/Bens. The need to print money by the truck load is necessary otherwise there would just be a few buks to pass amongst ourselves as there are more people and a higher volume of business between those people. More money is good, it makes gold rise, it stores the relative value from the time of purchase until the time of redemption. I don't think that the conspiracy regarding fiat buks is such a big deal or it may be that it is such a big deal that my mind just doesn't wrap around it in a convincing way. As long as the gas station takes Jackson's and the grocery store takes Grants, it's all good as far as I can see. So they want a few more buks this time...well, that's what the gold is for. Just buy a nice saint and tell yourself you did a good thing.
The Great Battle: Soon, there will begin a pitched battle for entitlements. On one side of the arena are the social security receipients that will have their benefits. The ssan people know what they are due, they get a statement from social security every quarter so it's not a mystical number or anything. These people will be paid or they will remove the obstructors from the political decision making process. This is the third rail and he who touches it will be elecrocuted. On the other side of the arena are the disenfranchised, those that didn't make it or have some "special need". Those that need public charity to stay under a roof and have food. These people need help too, just like the medical emergency clinics helping anyone who walks through the door. That's why we need to treat illegal immigrants in public hospitals...you can't have people walking around the general population with tuberculosis or cholera or all the contageous diseases that we know about. We have to treat them, just like we can't have people delivering babies in closets or in the alley, it's just not the proper way to deal with these issues and we are worse off if we don't attend to this collective need. The group that will be marginalized in this process are those that have been using public assistance to live a solid middle class lifestyle. That's probably going to change soon, those people will be victims of middle class slippage, they are going to be marginalized while the immigrant class and those with severe issues will be supported even more by public money. The way the dole will be doled is under the microscope. It's the way things should be.
This Thread: A genuine treat. Great place to hear from diverse specialists and good thinkers. Even the stray screamer is fun to engage from time to time. There is so much experience in these posters to this thread and there are some very astute concepts and thoughts that make it to this little enclave. This is one place where folk can get pretty good information and pretty solid ideas. This thread has had many attacks by people that don't like it, don't think it has anything to do with coins, don't particularly agree with the core concepts, have exception to anything they didn't think of themselves, yet it survives...it's a hoot, keep going.
JMHO, for entertainment purposes only.
<< <i>Economists work for the govt, univerities and corporations and sort of have to support the party line or risk losing grants and funding.
roadrunner >>
And where did you get the idea that Universities listen to the govenment? Have you ever been at one that did? I used to work for a couple and they don't listen to anyone.
<< <i>
<< <i>Economists work for the govt, univerities and corporations and sort of have to support the party line or risk losing grants and funding.
roadrunner >>
And where did you get the idea that Universities listen to the govenment? Have you ever been at one that did? I used to work for a couple and they don't listen to anyone. >>
When it comes to funding they sure as Hell do.
If the Government wants a study to support this or that, they will get it at the threat of funding being pulled. The results have already been decided, now just give us a research study to support it. That's exactly how it works.
Many university liberal types think they are free to spout a different diatribe, but the wiser, older ones who know who butters their bread toe the line very effectively behind the scenes. It's gone on for so long now, that it's barely behind the scenes anymore.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Don
$864 this morning, and one guru on CNBC yesterday said Gold has now become the worlds third currency?
Where is the pull back level here or are we headed to $900?
WOW, if that is the legal fund what are the losses going to look like?
as many of us think....this is just the tip of the iceberg!!
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
The way the dole will be doled is under the microscope.
The blank checks to the "have nots" will increase. There's no limit to these handouts.
But "Means testing" stands in the way of workers and savers, which makes unreportable investments (and income) critical.
I hear this all the time. But there's no way you can compare the standard of living now to 40 years ago. My mom didn't work when I was growing up in the 60's and 70's, but we also didn't have 1/10 the number of toys and conveniences that are typical now. Women started entering the workforce in a big way in the 80's not because they had to, but because they wanted to. And I think to a large extent that created the purchasing power to make the current standard of living possible.
Thanks Deadhorse.....saved me the trouble. Since when do University economic studies counter the BLS BS?
As far as standard of living, I honestly don't thank that a bigger house (all borrowed), a snappier car (all borrowed), and gadets and flat screens all about (mostly borrowed), is a higher standard of living. Imo we aren't really all that far removed from the 1960's. The wife
"decides" to work so the family can maintain the standard of living she wants to maintain.
Jim Willie goes wild on 2008 - phew..........
roadrunner
The moves tend to even out over time. Here's the way it was Dec 2nd 2004 and as you can see both metals are about the same ratio as when GoldSaint posted the big link. I wouldn't be surprised if silver doubles over his 2004 post first............
Here's the first post on this link with the numbers used:
Thursday December 02, 2004 6:13 AM
Rather than having a thread where we make our Gold, Silver, and economic predictions perhaps we can start a thread where we post related world announcements, price moves, and make comments on these moves as well as the predictions of others.
Gold is at $455 today and Silver is back to $8.
Here's the ratio as I figure it:
The numbers:
867/ 455 for gold
15.30/ 8 for silver
so
lets say that silvers 15.30 isn't known and see what the adjusted price should be with this formula
867/455 times 8 = X
X= $15.24
Actual price is now $15.30 so it's done a little better than gold on the day GoldSaint made his post.
Math it's a good thing
Please give us your "read" on this item. This is not a challenge, just looking for your take on entitlements in the near future.
Ren
I agree. I'm just saying that a walk around the house and garage today makes the 60's look like the Stone Age. And it's taken a second income (and as you point out, often a lot of debt) to finance that lifestyle. But it's a choice. A lot of people cry that it takes two incomes today to "get by", and it used to only take one. And they are usually "getting by" with all the stuff you mention.
True, but it's a choice for us that is basically forced upon us.
most mid to upper middleclass families deem it a necessaty to have a couple of cell phones, 3 to 5 color tv's, at least 2 cars (and the list goes on). We (the middleclass) live like the rich folk did 50 years ago.
Ex. more than 50 years ago, only the wealthy played golf or tennis. Nowadays, everyone does.
Ex 2. when TV's came out into the marketplace, only the wealthy first could afford them. Now, every new discovery or 'gadget' that is made is geared towards the middleclass.
Do I personally want or need these items? Not in every case!! But like my good neighbor, I give in and acquire these items for myself and my family.
You are looked upon as 'strange' if you live in one of these neighborhoods and do not succomb to this. Such as the family that goes without cable TV.
We have definitely lost our focus in our lifestyles. This is plainly evident. But we have little choice.
It does require two incomes to pay for all these 'gadgets'.
Our standard of living is higher, but I might argue, for some, our 'quality' of life is not.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>And it's taken a second income (and as you point out, often a lot of debt) to finance that lifestyle. But it's a choice.
True, but it's a choice for us that is basically forced upon us.
most mid to upper middleclass families deem it a necessaty to have a couple of cell phones, 3 to 5 color tv's, at least 2 cars (and the list goes on). We (the middleclass) live like the rich folk did 50 years ago.
Ex. more than 50 years ago, only the wealthy played golf or tennis. Nowadays, everyone does.
Ex 2. when TV's came out into the marketplace, only the wealthy first could afford them. Now, every new discovery or 'gadget' that is made is geared towards the middleclass.
Do I personally want or need these items? Not in every case!! But like my good neighbor, I give in and acquire these items for myself and my family.
You are looked upon as 'strange' if you live in one of these neighborhoods and do not succomb to this. Such as the family that goes without cable TV.
We have definitely lost our focus in our lifestyles. This is plainly evident. But we have little choice.
It does require two incomes to pay for all these 'gadgets'.
Our standard of living is higher, but I might argue, for some, our 'quality' of life is not. >>
i think we DO have choices and have made poor ones because of the proaganda on TV and magazines about how we should look, buy and live. The advertisers have made us feel inferior.
i do agree that our quality of life is not what it could be and more "stuff' certainly is not the answer.
You live in Canada, right? why are do people seem more friendly up there? Even hockey fans who travel to San Jose are rowdy and loud as all get out yet polite and respectful (in my expereince).
“…gold migrates from a commodity form, to a barometer, to a currency, to an international assets balance sheet form.”
He goes on to explain, “Conflict between governments and Gold’s role as the ultimate form of money puts Gold into a situation of permanent competition with fiat currencies created out of thin air by governments and, consequently, with the governments themselves”.
Gold is able to perform the role of the ultimate money due to the following:
> It has a high intrinsic value per unit of volume.
> It is homogeneous, divisible and durable.
> It is traded in a continuous market on a global basis.
> It cannot be debased; production averages approximately 2% per annum at most, in contrast to the unchecked creation of fiat currency by central banks.
> It is the only financial medium of exchange that is not a third-party’s liability.
> It is accumulated rather than consumed.
Gold is now somewhere between the barometer to currency form. Hint....it's not a commodity any more. We aren't even close to the end game (international balance sheet form).
One thing missing from the standard of living is non-essential plastic surgery in every household.
roadrunner
769 Gram (25 OzT) Gold Nugget w/Gold Coin Photos (for scale) -- Original Thread
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
I agree with you. I was trying to say the same thing you just said. Unfortunately, we tend to follow the 'herd' and this may be the problem.
You live in Canada, right? why are do people seem more friendly up there? Even hockey fans who travel to San Jose are rowdy and loud as all get out yet polite and respectful (in my expereince).
Yes, I'm a Canadian and we do take a lot of pride for our 'friendliness' (sometimes a ribbing as well).
I don't know how or why it started, but I do know internationally, this is one of our recognized traits.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Interestingly, the gap between 64 and 65 $20 Saints continues to shrink at every gold advance since August. Now at a record low 18% spread....a far cry from the 40% level of May 2006.
roadrunner
<< <i>My favorite Pet Rock, pictured below likes the increasing gold prices -- me too!!
769 Gram (25 OzT) Gold Nugget w/Gold Coin Photos (for scale) -- Original Thread
Wow, that's neat Stuart!
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
just looking for your take on entitlements in the near future.
Taxing the rich and rescuing the poor wins elections. Any "entitlement" program that plays in this ballpark will grow and spend money faster than the real rate of inflation. I'll note the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP), where they provide government funding to people who aren't children. That and other types of programs will grow exponentially. So will programs like the college loan fiasco where you only payback loans based upon a small percentage (say, 15%) of your actual income. It's a fantastic boon to stay-at-home moms and self-employed people who fail to 1099 their incomes. All wrapped up in the guise of "advancing" the education of society.
<< <i>Off topic - Where do you get the standards for class? Low, Middle, Upper, etc? I had a conversation about that the other day and thought that most of my family and my wifes were probably lower middle class, but I'd like to find out. >>
Anyone who can spend less than he earns is very wealthy.
“Dear Jim,
Since reading your comments about protecting my money, I decided to check out my bank. What I found was that they are in the top 25 banks and obviously have large derivatives exposure. I then started checking out some local banks and found one here in town that has one branch. I went to this bank and started asking questions about derivatives exposure. The president of the bank could not answer my questions and so she got the CFO to come down to talk to me. (How many banks can you walk into and talk to the president and CFO?).
He brought me a copy of their UBPR (Uniform Bank Performance Report) and on page 5A, it shows the total derivatives that they have on their books. This bank had none on their books, so I have moved all of my business and personal accounts there. You can check this information on any bank by going to:
http://www2.fdic.gov/ubpr/UbprReport/SearchEngine/Default.asp
Just enter the bank's name and city and it will give you the UBPR. I did check my new bank and they haven't had any derivatives for as far back as the records go. Since I need cash for my business and to pay my personal bills, this seemed the safest place to put it. “
By Rex Nutting
Last update: 8:30 a.m. EST Jan. 4, 2008Print RSS Disable Live Quotes
WASHINGTON (Market Watch) - The unemployment rate shot up to 5% in December as job growth stalled, a sign that the U.S. economic slump has spread to the labor market. U.S. seasonally adjusted nonfarm payrolls rose by 18,000 in December, the weakest job growth since August 2003, according to a survey of thousands of businesses. Job growth was revised up by a total of 10,000 in November and October. Economists were expecting payrolls to increase about 58,000 in December. Private-sector payrolls fell by 13,000, the biggest decline in more than four years. A separate survey of households showed employment plunging by 436,000, marking the biggest decline in five years. The number of unemployed adults rose by 474,000, pushing the unemployment rate up to 5.0% from 4.7%.
Doesn't look good....I tried to post a link but of course the filter doesn't like Market Watch when it's put together in a link.