Crossover thread...the PCGS database experiment. (More) Results posted December 20th.
coinlieutenant
Posts: 9,310 ✭✭✭✭✭
I thought roadrunner's post on crack out success across the services was an excellent source of info and thought that a similar thread could be started to track crossovers and the percentages that people get.
When you post put the coin's date, denom, service that you are trying to cross the coin from and your reason for sending in the coin...i.e. why you think the coin should cross.
Be detailed!! If you think that there is something that might hold the coin back, tell us that and also post reasonably sized pics if they are available.
When the results come in, simply edit the original post and let us know how it went!! My goal is to make this a numismatic learning tool and a source for discussion. There are plenty of people that know eccentricities of individual series and what the services are looking at for grades within them. Let's LEARN and SHARE.
Remember, the most important part of the post is to say WHY you think the coin will cross and reservations that might hold it back.
If you dont like the idea or think that it will be utterly useless (you're a plastic hater), dont post!!!
Perhaps, roadrunner could start a similar thread that could be used as a crackout database...?????
I have a submission into PCGS right now for crossover and I will be the gunieau pig. Dont laugh if I get shut out but feel free to critique and value add the discussion.
EDITED TO ADD...ONLY post submissions that you dont know the results of yet. Your opinion and thought process could be biased based on results.
Very respectfully,
John
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#1. NGC MS67* 1872 Seated liberty dime. Sending this coin in for crossing for a customer. I sent the coin in based on the following attributes. The coin has excellent superb gem luster along with killer eye appeal. The coin is blast white but does not have a dipped look to it at all. Several dealers that I showed believed that the coin might not have been dipped despite its blast white nature. The strike on this coin is full with liberty's head all there and bold. Most heads on coins of this date (and series) are very mushy. Marks on this coin are consistent with the 67 grade in my opinion but PCGS may not cross it for two reasons. First there is a small mark in the devices (leg) and a very small luster break on liberties cheek. I showed the coin to jcping who believed it would not cross for that reason and that the wheat on the reverse was not brought fully up. Secondly, it would make the coin a PCGS pop 1...none higher. I dont know if that is a good reason to think that it might not cross but perhaps that is what this entire thread is for...to document those types of crosses. PCGS MS67....POP 1....None higher!!!!!
#2. NGC PF66* 1872 Shield nickel. Sending this coin in for the same customer. This one I think has a good chance to cross based on the following. The coin is completely original with very pristine surfaces. There are a few minor hairlines but are well placed and hidden under the toning consistent with PCGS standards. Strike is good as expected on a proof. The coin is very eye appealing which I think will carry this coin on the crossover. Very translucent greens and greys on the obverse and muticolored pastels on the reverse. My only concern about this cross is the mirrors. The mirrors are strong but muted about 30% by the original toning. One minor carbon spot on the reverse periphery is of concern as well but should not limit the grade in my opinion. PCGS PF66!!!!!
I have another submission that I will get to later but hope that others add before I do that. Hope this experiment goes well and is received amongst the board members. I will let you know when it comes back... No pictures on these but I will try and add them when they get back for reference
John
When you post put the coin's date, denom, service that you are trying to cross the coin from and your reason for sending in the coin...i.e. why you think the coin should cross.
Be detailed!! If you think that there is something that might hold the coin back, tell us that and also post reasonably sized pics if they are available.
When the results come in, simply edit the original post and let us know how it went!! My goal is to make this a numismatic learning tool and a source for discussion. There are plenty of people that know eccentricities of individual series and what the services are looking at for grades within them. Let's LEARN and SHARE.
Remember, the most important part of the post is to say WHY you think the coin will cross and reservations that might hold it back.
If you dont like the idea or think that it will be utterly useless (you're a plastic hater), dont post!!!
Perhaps, roadrunner could start a similar thread that could be used as a crackout database...?????
I have a submission into PCGS right now for crossover and I will be the gunieau pig. Dont laugh if I get shut out but feel free to critique and value add the discussion.
EDITED TO ADD...ONLY post submissions that you dont know the results of yet. Your opinion and thought process could be biased based on results.
Very respectfully,
John
**********************************************************************************************************************************
#1. NGC MS67* 1872 Seated liberty dime. Sending this coin in for crossing for a customer. I sent the coin in based on the following attributes. The coin has excellent superb gem luster along with killer eye appeal. The coin is blast white but does not have a dipped look to it at all. Several dealers that I showed believed that the coin might not have been dipped despite its blast white nature. The strike on this coin is full with liberty's head all there and bold. Most heads on coins of this date (and series) are very mushy. Marks on this coin are consistent with the 67 grade in my opinion but PCGS may not cross it for two reasons. First there is a small mark in the devices (leg) and a very small luster break on liberties cheek. I showed the coin to jcping who believed it would not cross for that reason and that the wheat on the reverse was not brought fully up. Secondly, it would make the coin a PCGS pop 1...none higher. I dont know if that is a good reason to think that it might not cross but perhaps that is what this entire thread is for...to document those types of crosses. PCGS MS67....POP 1....None higher!!!!!
#2. NGC PF66* 1872 Shield nickel. Sending this coin in for the same customer. This one I think has a good chance to cross based on the following. The coin is completely original with very pristine surfaces. There are a few minor hairlines but are well placed and hidden under the toning consistent with PCGS standards. Strike is good as expected on a proof. The coin is very eye appealing which I think will carry this coin on the crossover. Very translucent greens and greys on the obverse and muticolored pastels on the reverse. My only concern about this cross is the mirrors. The mirrors are strong but muted about 30% by the original toning. One minor carbon spot on the reverse periphery is of concern as well but should not limit the grade in my opinion. PCGS PF66!!!!!
I have another submission that I will get to later but hope that others add before I do that. Hope this experiment goes well and is received amongst the board members. I will let you know when it comes back... No pictures on these but I will try and add them when they get back for reference
John
0
Comments
Chris
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
i look forward to the updated results and the photos
michael
my 1973-P pcgs ms-65 compared to another in pcgs ms-66
my 1973-D pcgs ms-66 compared to another in pcgs ms-67
my 1976-S silver ms-67 compared to another in pcgs ms-68
I would love others opinions. Perhaps I am overlooking an important aspect.
Perhaps I am biased towards my coins. I'll edit in my results probly around New Years.
My order was received 11/11. My 2 invoices are 9030135 & 9030136.
These are all from my personal collection that are firmly entrenched. I like PCGS holders much better than NGC so I figured I would try some crosses and see how my grading skills were.
Hope that people start to add to this database. Wont be any good with just one person's input. Also, remember, this is for crosses only, NOT crackouts/regrades.
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#1. NGC XF45 1853 A/R Seated Half. This coin to me is a no brainer cross. If there is one coin in the whole submission that I am confident will come back in a PCGS holder, this is it. The coin is completely virgin original with tons of luster that is so often not present on XF coins in todays grading... It has no marks of note, beautiful color and a good strike. Prototypical choice XF coin. Lets hope I didnt just jinx it!
PCGS XF45!!!
#2. NGC AU58 1859-O Seated Half. I am again pretty sure that this coin will cross. Beautiful toned coin with just a touch of friction on the thigh of liberty. Mark free and appealing. I am a bit concerned that PCGS will not cross it because of the toning. I think it is NT but they can be so ultraconservative sometimes it is scary.
PCGS AU58!!!
#3. NGC AU58 1888 Seated Half. Again, this coins should cross or in a perfect world upgrade. There are AU58's and then there are AU58's
PCGS AU58!!!
#4. NGC AU58 1838 RE Half. This coin is just like the above. Virtually uncirculated with rub that you have to look for instead of being obvious. Lightly toned surfaces that are dead on original. I am 99% sure that this coin will cross.
DNC
#5. NGC AU58 1808 Bust Half. Of all the coins bust halves that I have, those in the know like this coin the best as they understand how difficult is to find the early dates with this grade and eye appeal. The coin is virtually unc but in my opinion was downgraded from MS60 by a well hidden pinscratch in the hair of liberty. I am concerned that will keep the coin from crossing along with its unusual blue toning in the upper obverse of the coin. A color that is often duplicated by AT'ers.
PCGS AU58!!!
#6. NGC AU55 1811 Bust Half. Coin is completely original and eye appealing although the photo is dark below. Light wear on the high points comensurate with the grade although I have seen worse graded higher. No chance of AT and a 99% cross candidate IMO.
PCGS AU55!!!
#7. NGC AU58 1826 Bust Half. The coin has enough luster and positive qualities going for it to be an AU58 IMO but it is borderline. PCGS might think that there is bit much wear on the coin for the 58 grade although again, I have seen worse in 58 holders. Hoping that the coins stunning eye appeal will carry it.
PCGS AU58!!!
#8. NGC MS63 1832 Bust Half. Outstanding luster is the best thing this coin has going for it. Marks are on par with a 63 grade as is strike. Eye appeal is much better. I give this one a 75% chance to cross. Concerned that PCGS might not cross due to discoloration on the cheek.
PCGS MS63!!!
siliconvalleycoins.com
siliconvalleycoins.com
Second was a 1914D $10 Indian, Looked a little to nice to be in a NGC MS62 holder, but it had the usual parallel scratches on the rev. Sent it in hoping for the best, but only got a cross at the same grade. It was a 2 to start with and thats what I got back in a different holder. To bad because a 3 would have been a kaa-ching for the collection.
Third, was a 1877s Trade Dollar in ANACS 62 DDR. Solid for the grade (if there is a solid 2) and I ask if they could only cross if they labeled it with the DDR. No luck there, I should of known, but they were free sub anyways.
Fourth. 1878s Trade Dollar in a uh, well, uhh, shame to say, PCI gold label. MS60. Definitely an MS coin but with a nice scratch on the rev. Didn't really expect it and it didn't. The more I thought about it the more I knew I wouldn't want it in a PCGS holder, its not PCGS material.
Edit; where did the paragraphs go
Excellent idea, this should be a fun thread to watch...
joeyuk,
As far as your coins are concerned: all I can say it that they are awesome. But, comparing them to the others as far as their grades can be frustrating. I've seen quite a few IKEs in older holders that I doubt very seriously would be in the same grade holders @ todays grading standards (probably a difference of only a couple of years). I do think that PCGS has tightened up quite a bit as far as IKEs are concerned...JMO
Linky PR67 CAM
Jeff PR68 CAM
Roosie PR68* CAM
Washie PR68 CAM
Frankie PR68 CAM
Didnt have the b*lls to crack em out
Sent them in for minimum grade of 67 CAM
Probably another 5-6 weeks for results but i will post when available.
Proof
siliconvalleycoins.com
siliconvalleycoins.com
I'm at 100% as far as crosses go... only about 15... now I'm trying to master the upgrade....
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Green PCI
Photos of the 2006 Boston Massacre
<< <i>#1. NGC MS67* 1872 Seated liberty dime....PCGS MS67....POP 1....None higher!!!!! >>
Russ, NCNE
siliconvalleycoins.com
coinpage.com
siliconvalleycoins.com
siliconvalleycoins.com
siliconvalleycoins.com
This batch was sent in in mid 1996 because I thought all the gold coins were undergrade; the Mercury dime went in because someone told me they would buy it in a PCGS holder but not in an ANACS holder:
-Indian quarter eagle, generic date, NGC MS62 PCGS MS63
-Indian half eagle, generic date, NGC MS62 PCGS MS63
-Indian eagle, generic date, NGC MS61 PCGS MS62
-Liberty double eagle, generic date, NGC MS61 PCGS MS62
-1916-S Mercury dime, ANACS MS65FB PCGS MS65FB Truly just an average coin.
This coin went in in early 2000 because I thought it was a mortal lock for an MS67 and that it would be worth more in a PCGS holder:
-Texas commem, generic date, NGC MS66 PCGS MS66 So much for the mortal lock!
These coins went in in late 2002 looking for upgrades:
-1938 Lincoln cent, NGC PF63RB DNC PCGS PF63BN The color on this coin would knock the snot out of you.
-1943-S Mercury dime, NGC MS66 PCGS MS66FB Extremely pretty and vibrant toning.
-1950-D Roosevelt dime, NGC MS67 DNC PCGS MS66 I actually thought this had an outside chance at MS68! I still own the coin, but it is not an MS68; I think greed took over on it.
-1947-S Washington quarter, NGC MS67 DNC PCGS MS66 This coin was cracked out and sent back in raw where it graded PCGS MS68! There is something to be learned here.
-1948-D Washington quarter, NGC MS66 PCGS MS66 A nice coin.
There may be one or two others I have submitted over the years, but not many.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
1901 Indian Head NGC MS64RD - PCGS MS64RD
1882-CC Morgan Dollar NGC (old holder) MS64 - PCGS MS64
1962-D Franklin Half Dollar NGC (old holder) MS65 - PCGS MS64
1952-D Franklin Half Dollar NGC MS64 (old holder) - PCGS MS64FBL
1960-D Lincoln Cent (SM Date)ICG MS67RD - PCGS MS65RD (LG Date)
1951-S Quarter ICG MS67 - PCGS MS64
1954-S Washington Quarter ICG MS67 - PCGS MS65
The ICG coins were an experiment and I was hoping for a 1 point drop, but the 3 point drop really hurt. The most interesting was ICG small date Lincoln going to a Large date. I was hoping for a 1 point leap on the NGC coins but none got it - BTW I suck at grading.
<< <i>I was going over my coin spreadsheet and looked at my crossovers for the year and here are the results on crackouts:
1901 Indian Head NGC MS64RD - PCGS MS64RD
1882-CC Morgan Dollar NGC (old holder) MS64 - PCGS MS64
1962-D Franklin Half Dollar NGC (old holder) MS65 - PCGS MS64
1952-D Franklin Half Dollar NGC MS64 (old holder) - PCGS MS64FBL
1960-D Lincoln Cent (SM Date)ICG MS67RD - PCGS MS65RD (LG Date)
1951-S Quarter ICG MS67 - PCGS MS64
1954-S Washington Quarter ICG MS67 - PCGS MS65
The ICG coins were an experiment and I was hoping for a 1 point drop, but the 3 point drop really hurt. The most interesting was ICG small date Lincoln going to a Large date. I was hoping for a 1 point leap on the NGC coins but none got it - BTW I suck at grading. >>
Your 1960D cent is all grown up now! How time flies. I remember when it was just a small date.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
1856-0 quarter PCGS MS64+ green tag - lovely colored solid 65 obverse but reverse just a nice solid 64. Went to NGC twice looking for a 65 grade. Came back 64 each time. Last trip went back to PCGS to reholder it as 64......and it came back 63? Huh?
1877 half PCGS MS64++ first gen slab. turned down way over 64
bid from a few dealers to send this in myself raw to PCGS. Figured as a no-brainer MS65 since the obverse was 65++ and the reverse a 64++. Low and behold they graded it MS63 right behind the quarter above. Guess that was a tougher day at PCGS. If anyone has type coins that went in that same day please ship them for my offer.
This is more evidence why I say at BEST, PCGS and NGC are 80% accurate and repeatable on classic coin submissions.
Coin LT: the inconsistency from day to day at the services is one reason why it is so difficult to get the coin in the right holder the first time. TDN has a good point in that they need to be "trained" first before you let them grade your coins. And the best way is the 'set'
submittal where they get to see lots of the same type coins for comparison. Only then can they truly see the subtle differences in grades. Otherwise their accuracy is plus or minus 1 pt. on any particular day for a single coin.
roadrunner
PCGS CROSSOVER GRADE RESULTS
LINE # CERT # COIN DATE DENOMINATION VARIETY COUNTRY GRADE
1 21869169 1847 H10C USA MS63
Cameron Kiefer
On that note.... how objective is PCGS when it comes to a cross-over compared to a bare coin in a 2x2? Not knowing anything about the process, do they just hit the highlights of what they are looking for(MS-65 & above) or do they completely go through the coins for the grading process? I'd have to think that any mint state coin 60-200 years old they recieved in a 2x2 would not bring up a *light bulb* that they were sitting in some cigar box during all of that time just waiting to be graded, so they might be more harsh knowing it is a *cracked* case to discourage it. Again... just a question.
1881-S Morgan in an MS61 PCGS rattler holder, came back MS63PL (up two grades and PL to boot!)
1916-P Merc in an MS66FB ACG(!) holder, came back MS65FB (I knew this was FB and a close 66 - ACG got one almost right!)
1949-P Lincoln in an NGC MS66RD holder, came back MS66RD (this was the most recent of many late '40's, early 50's Lincolns MS66RD's that I've crossed from NGC to PCGS)
I should note though, that each of the above were the result of careful "weeding" from many, many candidates. Most that I saw in hand (or bought on ebay), didn't get close to me cracking them and paying the grading fees. I've had good results but if I had cracked them all without careful judging of them, most would not have achieved the desired grade.
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
K S
Morgan Key Date Submissions Recieved
1) 1889CC- NGC AU-53, xrossed to PCGS AU-53
2) 1892CC- NGC MS-64 xrossed to PCGS MS-64
3) 1890CC-NGC MS-63* DPL xrossed to PCGS MS-63 DMPL
NGC to PCGs,5 coins.
Submitted as minimum PR67CAM
One a Pr67 CAM
Four were PR68 CAM
BIG ZERO FOR FIVE
PCGS really likes theyre slabs !
<< <i>No details because im still pissed about it !
NGC to PCGs,5 coins.
Submitted as minimum PR67CAM
One a Pr67 CAM
Four were PR68 CAM
BIG ZERO FOR FIVE
PCGS really likes theyre slabs ! >>
Or NGC overgrades.
Cameron Kiefer
Results(Submission 3301392)
1 21880468 1939 50C USA MS65
2 21880469 1939-D 50C USA MS65
3 21880470 1939-S 50C USA MS65
4 21880471 1941 50C USA MS65
5 21880472 1941-D 50C USA MS65
6 21880473 1944 50C USA DNC
7 21880474 1946-D 50C USA MS65
8 21880475 1946-S 50C USA MS65
1943-D 25c was ANACS MS65..... now PCGS MS66.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
I plan on trying to cross some ANACS FS Jeffs to NGC in the near future.
* - crackouts
# - crossovers
*** - regrades (not cracked out)
1921-D Mercury Dime ANACS (G06)# PCGS---G06
1921-D Walking Liberty Half ANACS (VG08)# PCGS--- DNC (PCGS said it was G06)
1950-D Franklin Half PCI (green 14-digit) (MS64FBL)# PCGS--- MS64FBL
1916-D Mercury Dime PCI (green 10-digit) (AG03)* PCGS--- AG03
1900-O Morgan Dollar PCI (green 10-digit) (MS64PQ)* PCGS--- MS64 (DOH! I thought it was 65!)
1944 Walking Liberty Half PCI (green 10-digit) (MS62PQ)* PCGS--- MS64 (sweet!)
1930-S Lincoln Cent PCI (green 10-digit) (MS63PQ)* PCGS--- MS64RD
1936 Washington Quarter PCI (green 10-digit) (MS64)* PCGS--- MS65
1944 Mercury Dime PCI (green 10-digit) (MS63PQ)* PCGS--- MS65
2001-D Roosevelt Dime PCGS (Blue - No Bar Code on front) (MS67)*** PCGS ---- MS68FB Wahooo!
1943-D Mercury Dime PCGS (Old Rattler)(MS64)*** PCGS---MS64 (DOH!) I thought it was FB my eyes must have been tired
1945-S Walking Liberty Half PCI (green 10-digit) (MS64)* PCGS--- MS64
1937-S Buffalo Nickel PCI (green 10-digit) (MS63)* PCGS--- MS64
1941 Walking Liberty Half PCI (green 10-digit) (MS62)* PCGS--- MS63
1943-D Washington Quarter PCI (green, 10-digit) (MS64)* PCGS--- MS64
1963 Franklin Half PCI (green, 10-digit) (PR67 Cameo)* PCGS --- PR66
1963 Franklin Half PCI (green, 10-digit) (PR67 Cameo)* PCGS --- PR66
1962 Franklin Half PCI (green, 10-digit) (PR67 Cameo)* PCGS --- PR66
1938-D Buffalo Nickel PCGS (Old Rattler)(MS65)* PCGS---MS65
Photos of the 2006 Boston Massacre