I got a counterfiet quarter in change today...I think?

tsacch

Check this out.........actually my buddy comes to me at work and says, "hey Tom, look at this quarter, its a different color, want it?"

Its surfaces are bumpy and the edge is only one color and it has no "ring" to it when dropped on the table....and much lighter in weight.

Ideas? I think its counterfiet.

dthigpen

Might have been altered, but I doubt someone would go to the trouble of counterfeighting a state quarter.

tsacch

Altered how? its surfaces are that of a cast copy and its light weight and dull sounding when dropped????? Wrong metal....maybe but doubtful.

tom

wjd283

I'd guess it's been in acid,but I could be wrong.

kamehameha00

<< <i>but I doubt someone would go to the trouble of counterfeighting a state quarter. >>



I don't doubt it. I once recieved a counterfeit lincoln cent in change before that was dated 2000.

tsacch

close up

another close up

tsacch

If it was acid dipped, you would still see the different colors on the edge.........

Weiss

Could it be on a foreign planchet?
Other possibility is that it was discolored by vinegar and/or tumbling, something that is common for metal detectorists to do at the end of the season (now).

tsacch

i thought of the wrong planchet, but then it wouldnt have the cast surface appearance.......................it also looks near BU, high end AU, so tumbling would be more even wear, not like wear on high points from handling.......

I thinkg its a cast counterfiet.............gut feeling

Tootawl

Bring it to Baltimore in 2 weeks and have ANACS take a look at it.

tsacch

i have a continuing education conference to go to and cant make Baltimore.............wish i could.

xbob

I live 15 minutes from Baltimore and plan to go to the show. If you want me to take it for you, PM me for mailing info.

tsacch

Cool man, thanks for the offer xbob, I appreciate it.

So does anyone think she is counterfiet?

Tom

MassFullStepper

Doubling on a cast? Unless my eyes deceive me......'Liberty' looks very doubled

tsacch

Doubling is only machine doubling at best and a good cast fake can pick that up...so I am not that impressed about that, but did want to show it on the scan, thanks to my Ricoh RDC-7 cam........but hey, if its a rare off planchet type, I am loving life......I would love to send her to Anacs, but so far as I know.......they wont slab a counterfiet.......maybe I should get her weight........whats she supposed to be?

Conder101

5.67 grams

Personally it looks to me like it has been in a rock tumbler for a little bit.

Elcontador

FWIW, my favorite counterfeit coin story was on the Amos and Andy show, which I saw as a child. The actors operated a parking lot, and one guy would bite the quarters given by customers to check if they were counterfeit.

tsacch

condor, thanks for the weight info.

How do you explain the silver only edge and the fact that is has a dull ring when dropped on the table? If it was tumbled, woudnt it be smoother and more worn out evenly, not just high spots? the uniformity of the casting bumps is the tell to me............so far I have very few people on my side with this one..............and i cant slab her if I am right........maybe PigCGS would bag her for me.????

earlwbollinger

My thoughts on this. . . are that First, someone sandblasted a quarter to test out their new sand blaster unit.
Second, someone was experimenting with some electroplating process, and afterwards, sandblasted the quarter
back to like you see it here.
Third, sometimes the huge planchette punches cause the two edges of metal to flow down along the rim making it look like
it is solid and not layered. This happens to a lot of the quarters, dimes and halves too.
Fourth, you can get a low temperature metal casting kit (pewter?), and some fine sand casting material. Then you can make a mould using the quarter
of your choice, and cast up a nice facsimile too. You could use lead as the next step up. Then some kind of aluminum alloy as afurther step.
You could get aluminum to come out sort of weighing heavier using zinc and other metals as alloys in it. You could also electroplate the cast coin afterwards
too.
http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Stories/030.1/[/L]
School casting kits
Link[L=Metal casting for kids] [L=Metal casting for kids]

tsacch

I could see how you think it would be sandblasted, but there is too much detail retained IMHO.
Cast.....yes.....yes indeed

Shamika

I think it's plated and not a counterfiet.

tsacch

Better edge pic. Lost detail would not be that dramatic with circulation or with plating.


The coin in question actually looks a bit smaller to me???? anyone else?

kieferscoins

What does it weigh?

Cameron Kiefer

Gonfunko

I'd say probably counterfeit. I got a counterfeit quarter myself once, in change from the school book sale. Right away, the surfaces looked "off". I took it to the science building and weighed it and a genuine quarter on the balance - there was more than a gram difference, which I figured wouldn't be within mint standards, being as a quarter weighs only about 5.5 grams. On closer inspection, I saw that the copper part of the edge was indented and the two nickel layers overlapped it. At that point, there was no choice but counterfeit. Here it is:

Shamika

<< <i>On closer inspection, I saw that the copper part of the edge was indented and the two nickel layers overlapped it. At that point, there was no choice but counterfeit. >>


Gonfunko,

I'm very certain that your quarter has been treated with acid. The edge with the "indented" copper core and two overlapping nickel layers is a VERY telling sign. The acid has preferentially attacked the copper core relative to the cupro-nickel outer layer.

hookooekoo

I've gotten State Quarters for Mint Bags that had an Orange Peel look to them.

My first guess is that it is a Mint Error where the Copper layer was a little thin.

TommyType

For what it's worth, I'm with Tsacch on this. There are too many unexplained "qualities" that I can't imagine are related.

1) Reeding doesn't look right
2) Lack of ring
3) Surface quality
4) Apparent weight difference
5) No visible copper core
6) Yet obverse and reverse detail is pretty good.

Probably each of them could be explained away in some fashion...and some of them in combination. But all of them together seem to indicate counterfiet.

Tom

Gonfunko

<< <i>

<< <i>On closer inspection, I saw that the copper part of the edge was indented and the two nickel layers overlapped it. At that point, there was no choice but counterfeit. >>


Gonfunko,
I'm very certain that your quarter has been treated with acid. The edge with the "indented" copper core and two overlapping nickel layers is a VERY telling sign. The acid has preferentially attacked the copper core relative to the cupro-nickel outer layer. >>


Would acid treatment account for a bit over a gram difference in weight? I'm sure it would remove some metal, but 1/5 is a bit much it seems. The details look mushy too, and the service is pitted - classic signs of casting. Additionally, the reeding on the rim is weak or non-existant in some locations. I'm not saying that it can't be acid treated - it just seems more like a counterfeit to me.

Conder101

Pitting is also a sign of soaking in acid. The real indicater in the fact that the reeding is still on the indented copper layer. A gram difference in weight does seem extreme but it might be possible. (And if it was cast, where is the seam? And with an indented edge, how would you get it out of the mold?)

Gonfunko

<< <i>Pitting is also a sign of soaking in acid. The real indicater in the fact that the reeding is still on the indented copper layer. A gram difference in weight does seem extreme but it might be possible. (And if it was cast, where is the seam? And with an indented edge, how would you get it out of the mold?) >>


I was thinking that they made three layers and then bonded them together, and applied the reeding later.

Shamika

<< <i>Would acid treatment account for a bit over a gram difference in weight? I'm sure it would remove some metal, but 1/5 is a bit much it seems. >>


Acid treadtment can certainly account for the gram difference in weight. Heck, given enough time, the coin would be complete dissolved. Besides, I'll bet the coin had already circulated many years before it was subjected to acid so some of it's weight had already been lost.



<< <i>The details look mushy too, and the surface is pitted - classic signs of casting. >>


These are also classic signs of acid treatment above and beyond what you already see on the rim.



<< <i>Additionally, the reeding on the rim is weak or non-existant in some locations. >>


Again, signs of previous circulation. Have you taken a close look at any 1960's quarter you occasionally get in change? Many of them have parts of their reeding completely worn away.

The quarter is interesting to study, but it unfortunately is a counterfiet counterfiet.

tsacch

4.15 grams

cladking

4.15 G!! That does sound like a counterfeit.

Gonfunko

<< <i>

<< <i>Would acid treatment account for a bit over a gram difference in weight? I'm sure it would remove some metal, but 1/5 is a bit much it seems. >>


Acid treadtment can certainly account for the gram difference in weight. Heck, given enough time, the coin would be complete dissolved. Besides, I'll bet the coin had already circulated many years before it was subjected to acid so some of it's weight had already been lost.


<< <i>The details look mushy too, and the surface is pitted - classic signs of casting. >>


These are also classic signs of acid treatment above and beyond what you already see on the rim.


<< <i>Additionally, the reeding on the rim is weak or non-existant in some locations. >>


Again, signs of previous circulation. Have you taken a close look at any 1960's quarter you occasionally get in change? Many of them have parts of their reeding completely worn away.
The quarter is interesting to study, but it unfortunately is a counterfiet counterfiet. >>


Ok, you've got me. Thanks for correcting me, even if it did take a while.

Jdurg

Being a chemist, I have to butt-in on this one. Copper is a fairly inert metal in terms of reactions with acids. Hydrochloric acid will not attack copper, and sulfuric acid will only attack copper if the acid is about 99% pure. At that concentration, there would be almost nothing left of the nickel portion of the quarter. The only acid that will readily attack copper is nitric acid, and nitric acid isn't something that most people have access to. (HCl is also known as muriatic or pool acid, and sulfuric acid is known as battery acid). Of all the metals used in common circulation coins, copper is the least reactive. Therefore, if it were dipped into any acid the copper would be attacked either not at all, or in a miniscule amount compared to the other metals.

tsacch

chemistry.............I remember that class really well. The girl named Debbie who sat in front of me to the right...........oh man.........i still dream of her on the boardwalk, midsummer, just bathing suits and nothing but time to kill.

WANNABEDEALER

I have seen a whole bag sealed bag ($1000) of CT quarters like that, it looked like the dies were etched with acid. I am pretty sure it is real and just a mint screwup.

tsacch

uh huh

rich

Just putting in my 2 cents worth.
1)The mint receives planchets from an outside source. I've read that the Sac's come rom Canada. I don't know where we get the Quarter planchets.
Let's say for arguments sake ,it's just missing the inner copper core.The normal weight should be about 5.67 grams would the missing copper account for the weight diff ???
It appears to be the same thickness/diameter.
The planchet might also be a foreign one accidentaly mixed in with the US batch.Are there any similiar coins from Canada/ or elsewhere the same weight.Any Darksiders out there for feedback?
The coin struck on an incorrect blank will weigh exactly what the denomination of that blank would have been

Could the surface texture be from the annealing process?Or bad alloy mix?
This is a good mystery I can't wate to see how it ends up.Let us know if you send it out for authentication.

tsacch

It is thinner as well, and ever so slightly bent as far as i can tell.

The scale was a friend of mine who's kid has a play scale from an old chemistry kit, so hopefully it is accurate. I am thinking of taking it to the pharmacy and having it weighed again.
tom