Bag toned 1887 Morgan Dollar - is it real or did I get screwed?
Russ
Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
Picked this one off on a bid board:
I think the toning is natural. What do you guys think?
Russ, NCNE
I think the toning is natural. What do you guys think?
Russ, NCNE
0
Comments
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>The untoned spot around RT in LIBERTY is where another coin rested on the rim between this coin and the bag. >>
I was actually wondering what caused that. Now I know! Thanks.
Russ, NCNE
60/40 AT, sorry for my negative opinion. Looks like a high sulper exposure while in an envelope. Color is darkest nearest the sulpher source.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
By the way, I have an 87 with those exact colors on the obverse, just a different pattern.
<< <i>If it turns out to be antimatter, just don't let it come in contact with any matter or it may result in the premature destruction of our solar system >>
I wonder if there would be any way to focus that energy in a narrow beam and accurately aim it; at say, a few blue states?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>If it turns out to be antimatter, just don't let it come in contact with any matter or it may result in the premature destruction of our solar system >>
I wonder if there would be any way to focus that energy in a narrow beam and accurately aim it; at say, a few blue states?
Russ, NCNE >>
Well, if someone can do it then the Air Force can:
Air Force pursuing antimatter weapons
Because being able to blow up the Earth just ain't enough firepower anymore.™
Just think of all that great new coastline that could be picked up
Don't believe any of those "Guesses" by those other guys - they just don't want to hurt your feeling and tell you how badly you got screwed. That coin is ABSOLUTELY AT! Just send it to me and I'll find a nice resting place for it!
Well, OK, it's a nice "AT" coin!
(Probably put in a mint bag by a mint employee in 1887, and he intentionally left it there so that it would "artificially" tone over the next 50-60 years - Darn those "Coin Doctors")
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>Russ,
Don't believe any of those "Guesses" by those other guys - they just don't want to hurt your feeling and tell you how badly you got screwed. That coin is ABSOLUTELY AT! Just send it to me and I'll find a nice resting place for it!
Well, OK, it's a nice "AT" coin!
(Probably put in a mint bag by a mint employee in 1887, and he intentionally left it there so that it would "artificially" tone over the next 50-60 years - Darn those "Coin Doctors") >>
Gee Ron. why waste your time here? Just ring up your expert buddies Bryan Osborne and JB Stevens and they will lay down the law to you which you will take as gospel.
<< <i>Russ,
60/40 AT, sorry for my negative opinion. Looks like a high sulper exposure while in an envelope. Color is darkest nearest the sulpher source.
I agree with rainbowroosie, sorry to be negative
<< <i>
<< <i>Russ,
60/40 AT, sorry for my negative opinion. Looks like a high sulper exposure while in an envelope. Color is darkest nearest the sulpher source.
I agree with rainbowroosie, sorry to be negative >>
If that is your opinion, you wouldn't know a true bag toner if it hit you upside the head.
Eric,
Crawl back into your trailer where you belong. And its Bryan Orsborn......get it right please.
David
<< <i>Be careful fountainheadgold, you were the one who called the newbie a fake, K6AZ has done more good than you!------------------BigE >>
What are you trying to say?
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>
<< <i>Russ,
Don't believe any of those "Guesses" by those other guys - they just don't want to hurt your feeling and tell you how badly you got screwed. That coin is ABSOLUTELY AT! Just send it to me and I'll find a nice resting place for it!
Well, OK, it's a nice "AT" coin!
(Probably put in a mint bag by a mint employee in 1887, and he intentionally left it there so that it would "artificially" tone over the next 50-60 years - Darn those "Coin Doctors") >>
Gee Ron. why waste your time here? Just ring up your expert buddies Bryan Osborne and JB Stevens and they will lay down the law to you which you will take as gospel. >>
Uhhh Eric - you must have missed the tongue in cheek response to Russ' tongue in cheek question "Did I get screwed?" Near as I can figure the comment
<< <i>Probably put in a mint bag by a mint employee in 1887, and he intentionally left it there so that it would "artificially" tone over the next 50-60 years . . . . >>
is a pretty clear indication that it's my opinion that the toning on that coin happened over a long period of time - probalby in an original mint bag. But you're a pretty smart guy and if you had "thought" before sticking your foot in your mouth you would have known that, wouldn't you?
BTW - what's your problem with Bryan Orsborn and Jason Stevens - you seem to have a serious pathological dislike that causes you to make unwarranted negative comments regarding both of those forum members. You seem to have an agenda that defies any sense of either decency or logic. You also seem to have extended that same pathological dislike to anyone who does not agree with your agenda, whatever it is.
I would request that you take the time to explain exactly what it is that seems to cause you to respond on this forum in this highly inflamatory manner - especially where there is no reason for your very childish comments. Just for the record - you have not become helpful, you have become offensive, and your offensive rhetoric appears intentional and malicious. You do not merely object, you are Objectionable
As for your comment about "ringing up my expert buddies", If I have a question about toning, I would discuss it with any number of knowledgeable dealers, including Andy Kimmel, Mike DeFalco, Dick Abrahams, Larry Shepard and yes Jason Stevens and Bryan Orsborn. Not all of these dealers post here, and due to members like you who are rude, malicious and inflamatory, there are several very knowledge forum members who do not post here often. Everyone of these named dealers are very generous in sharing their knowledge, in a very forthright and helpful manner. There are also a number of other collectors and dealers with whom I could discuss numerous issues regarding coins that are in addition to issues relating to toning and with whom I have had very positive dealings. They are too numerous to mention.
Eric, Let me be quite blunt: Your rude, malicious and inflamatory rhetoric on this forums does NOT add to an intelligent discourse or a sharing of knowledge that is useful to our forum members. It drives very knowledgeable people away from these boards, and that limits the information that could be shared among all our forum members.
You seem to determined act like a spoiled child, constantly throwing temper tantrums to get attention. Are you really that insecure in your knowledge that you have to continually stoop to this childish behavior and name calling? Try and be an adult Eric, and ACT like one . I personally think you are intelligent enough and have the capacity to exchange infromation in a mature manner that shows that you are capable of thinking and acting like an adult and not a spoiled and obnoxious child. On the other hand, I'm sure you can prove me wrong.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
TAG TEAM!!!!! TAKE IT BigE!!!!
BigE.` who!!!! which one!!!!`
<< <i>
<< <i>If it turns out to be antimatter, just don't let it come in contact with any matter or it may result in the premature destruction of our solar system >>
I wonder if there would be any way to focus that energy in a narrow beam and accurately aim it; at say, a few blue states?
Russ, NCNE >>
But Russ, you live in a blue state!
09/07/2006
K S
Look at this coin, it is as natural as you can get and you have people trashing it. Look at the thread about the 21 Morgan, people are trashing that coin. I've seen a lot of other people post pictures of their coins and they have been trashed. And you tell me I'm being negative.
I agree. Good catch on the untoned spot!
Thanks for actually explaining the toning & educating us instead of making some smart ass answer or guess.
K6AZ we look foward to your straightfoward, honest, and accurate opinions on your speciality, the Morgan Dollar.
<< <i> <<<Very real, and very pretty. The untoned spot around RT in LIBERTY is where another coin rested on the rim between this coin and the bag.>>>
I agree. Good catch on the untoned spot! >>
Is it really? Try and duplicate this in the real world. Assume that the toning on the obverse comes from contact from the bag, which of courxe is exactly how "bag toning" occurs. Now place the rim of another silver dollar touching the spot between the RT of Liberty - The coin with the rim against the "toning" silver is approximately 1 1/2" in diameter. In order for the rim to rest on the toning silver dollar, its opposite rim would be 1 1/2 inches above the surface of the "toning" silver dollar - thereby raising the surface of the bag 1 1/2 inches AWAY from the coin that is "toning" - How could the surface of the mint bag tone the coin when its now raised like a tent away from the "toning" coin and physically unable to make contact with the "toning" coin? BTW according to Eric's "theory" the rim touching the toned coin would have to be perpendicular to the toned coin, because if it lay flat on the ther coin, the rest of the touching coin would partially cover the toning coin and form a crescent/half-moon untoned area. The "rim" of one coin can touch the flat surface of another coin in an arc of 180 degress: starting by laying face down against the surface of the coin with only flat surface of the rim touching, and then progressively more of the rim edge touching as the coin is rotated upward to a 90 degree angle and then less and less of the edge of the rim touching as the coin is rotated back down so that the other side is again flat on the surface of the other coin. But no matter how you do it, when only the rim touches the surface of the other coin, it would prevent the bag from touching that same surface.
<< <i> Thanks for actually explaining the toning & educating us instead of making some smart ass answer or guess.
K6AZ we look foward to your straightfoward, honest, and accurate opinions on your speciality, the Morgan Dollar. >>
I'd be a little careful about putting that "pearl of wisdom" into any data bank, as unless you remove the rim from the rest of the coin, it is not physically possible to scientifically duplicate Eric's explanation. But here's a "guess" as to how that untoned spot occurred:
When the coins are "dumped" into the bag and then thrown into a storage vault, a tiny bit of the bag "bunched" up (something like an "air bubble") so that that part of the cloth not longer was in contact with the coin - not by much, but just far enough away so as not to touch that particular spot on the coin. Also, this coin was probably on the upper side of the bag, obverse up, mostly touching the cloth surface, but with NO other bags of silver dollars on top, so no weight of any other bags pressing down and causing the cloth of the bag to touch that spot. NO other silver dollars were between it and the cloth. Then the bag sat there undisturbed for a very long time.
As an informational point, rims touch other silver dollars in a mint bag all the time, but JUST the rim of a silver dollar cannot rest on the surface of another silver dollar which would otherwise be in contact with the cloth without at the same time raising the cloth of the bag AWAY from the coin and thereby preventing "bag toning" from the cloth.
The statement:
<< <i>The untoned spot around RT in LIBERTY is where another coin rested on the rim between this coin and the bag. >>
is not the likely cause of the untoned spot, because it would prevent the cloth of the bag from toning the rest of the coin toning as well.
My explanation is just a "guess" - but I'm sure much more probable (there may be other equally probable explanations) then the pronouncement of absolute "knowledge" expressed by Eric. The problem with "absolute" knowledge, (you know - like the earth is flat, and that all bag toned dollars have brown toning) is that it may be scientifically wrong, or physically impossible.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
Note: The reverse is untoned.
<< <i>every bag toned coin would have textile toning >>
Not so, only those coins that are pressed against the bag with great weight and perhaps another added factor - a humid or moist environment, but that's just a "guess" and as neither you nor I watched them tone for 50 or 60 years, yours is just a guess also. you may have watched them being removed from the bag - but you cetrtainly don't have knowledge as to the storage conditions for the previous 50-100 years - and its those conditions that cause the toning, and the infinate variation of color and physcial characteristics.
<< <i> My explanation of what caused the untoned spot is not based on guesswork, it is based by having been on hand for several original bags being broken up and sorted. >>
Eric, once that bag is moved from its initial resting place, you have no actual knowledge of the position of the coin as it lay in the bag when it toned -all you are seeing is what it looked like AFTER it was removed from the bag.
<< <i> I've found coins on edge as I described. >>
Really! Undisturbed in the same position as when it was stored? Please explain how you happened to see that phenomenon. Would seem that once you remove the coin from the bag that it would no longer be on edge as you described. How exactly did you observe it in the bag?
Was the rim of the coin 2 diminsional like a photo, or 3 dimensional like a real coin? Put the rim of one coin against the surface of another coin and take a photo and then show us less knowledgeable people on these boards how the cloth of the bag lay against the coin to "bag tone" the coin.
<< <i> And the biggest misconception in your post is that a coin has to be in phyiscal contact with the bag to tone >>
Well, Eric, you may be right - so why don't you explain to all of us exactly how it is that the coins tone when they are in the bag.
Which ones tone and which ones remain untoned? If they don't need to be in contact with the cloth of the bag, is there an optimal distance that they need to be from the cloth for them to tone? Seems that they are rather tightly packed together - do the coins in the inner portion of the bag that are protected from the cloth by other coins acquire bag toning. I'd be very interested in hearing your explanation of bag toning, particularly how the coins NOT in contact with the cloth acquire bag toning.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>I would say its a Russ special. IMHO >>
TBT,
What exactly is a "Russ special."?
Russ, NCNE
To me this coin exhibits the traits of a naturally toned coin. Erics explanation makes perfect sense. Sure, someone can question
the explanation, and possibly come up with an alternative. Unless a person "was actually there" when the bag was opened, no one could have a 100% "without a doubt" correct explanation.
Take a look at my pic. I outlined the most obvious stopping point of the toning. By the lines that are evident it looks pretty plain that something was in contact with the coin in that spot that caused the toning 'gasses' to stop and build up in the areas around the contact point, and then flow around the area.
Was it the edge of another coin? I would be more inclinded to agree with Eric based simply on the fact that whatever it was, it had to be a solid object because the gases were stopped. If it was part of the bag i would think that the gases would have slowed down but eventually made their way thru and toned that spot. Besides that, if it was the bag i would suspect that the toning would actually be more intense at that contact point, not un-toned.
Oreville..... Your toned 1904-O toned Morgan looks to be mint bag seam or crease toned.
<< <i>Well, Eric, you may be right - so why don't you explain to all of us exactly how it is that the coins tone when they are in the bag.
Which ones tone and which ones remain untoned? If they don't need to be in contact with the cloth of the bag, is there an optimal distance that they need to be from the cloth for them to tone? Seems that they are rather tightly packed together - do the coins in the inner portion of the bag that are protected from the cloth by other coins acquire bag toning. I'd be very interested in hearing your explanation of bag toning, particularly how the coins NOT in contact with the cloth acquire bag toning. >>
Silly questions from someone who appears to be looking for nothing more then a fight. Right?
<< <i><< I would say its a Russ special. IMHO >>
TBT,
What exactly is a "Russ special."? >>
Hey TBT,
Grow some balls and post your PM accusation publically right here in this thread. Are you man enough?
Russ, NCNE
Cameron Kiefer
fivecents: You said: <<<<Oreville..... Your toned 1904-O toned Morgan looks to be mint bag seam or crease toned. >>>>>
Could you explain that more specifically as I do not comprehend this visually in the bag. NWCS has the same pattern in which the un toned area does not go all the way across the coin and stops clearly before the rim on one side. Thanks!
Attached below is one of my seam or crease toned morgan dollars.